bankei

More police raids and arrests of drug taking monks

http://youtu.be/VfwIilcOtDk

Drunk monk picked up and breathalised

I have stumbled across some videos of bad monks in Thailand - a different side of Buddhism.

In this first video the police enter into a monk's kuti to find marijuana, yaabaa and various drug taking implements such as bongs. The police drag him before the abbot and he is instantly disrobed

This is another video with a disrobing. I cannot understand what it is about but the people seem angry with the exmonk.

Bankei

I eat my steak with a spoon and fork.

What about giving to the poor or sick?

She can actually hand him things directly as there is no rule against this in the vinaya. However, the custom in Thailand is for a woman not to do this.

Bankei

Don't forget the Thais are not just Buddhist, but more animist with a sprinkling of Buddhism of top. The belief in phii and gods is very widespread in well ingrained into the religion. Look at all the Brahmanical works out there being worshiped - such as the Brahman at that hotel in Bangkok (forget the name now). Recall a few years ago someone smashed the statue up with a hammer and he was breaten to death by the gentle worshipers on the spot.

Also notice the increase in Kuanyin worship lately. Kuanyin is a Chinese type Mahayana Bodhisattva of compassion (Avelokitisevara in Sanskrit).

I have also noticed many Thai Buddhists who actually pray to the Buddha, "phra Phutajao" asking for favours such as a Christian praying to a male diety living in outerspace. In fact little different to the Christian in this regard.

There is also the idoltry aspect. Thais are largely Idolerers (sp??). They pray to the statue itself and belive the statue has the power - and this is where they may differ from the praying Christians too.

Bankei

About 10 days ago I saw this monk stand alone at Victory monument. My first time to see him. I saw him stand alone there for about 20 minutes before a poor man, looks like a labour, came and gave him some food. Then he walked away. I never see any monk at Victory monument in the morning before. So I quite surprised. But now I guess that he went there to check his popularity.

He reminded me of some event I will never forget.

Nearly 20 years ago I had lunch at a veggie house in Thevej. I had occasionally been there for years but not more than 4 times a year. One day, to my surprise I found there's plenty of one-monk pictures on the 3 sides of the wall. They were cut from brochures, magazines. Normally she never put any picture on the wall. I carefully look at those pictures for a while and then I said to myself "Something's wrong with this monk".

A week later I found him in many newspapers, he's Yantra, one of the most scandalous monk in Thailand. Then a month later a rumour about his relationship with woman began. Some months later I went to that veggie house again, but it changed into another business. I can't find out what happened to her. :-(

I feel that the second Yantra is coming!

Do you mean you saw the bearded monk in the photo? very interesting.

A monk won't even wai the king.

To put it another way: Even the king wais a monk. That's because a monk occupies a ritually superior position in Thailand.

not ritual...there is a heirachy of precepts....5 ...8 ...10...227 which is why novices wai monks but not the reverse. Monks wai senior monks.

Does this mean monks should wai Bhikkhuni who follow 311 precepts(Theravada)?

Stop beleiving in it and the effects will stop.

excellent. Thanks Phra Fred

It would be the same probably. Someone has probably held some sort of merit making ritual and the string is for sending or collecting 'merit' vibes.

fabianfred, I would like to ordain as a monk in Thailand, but not as a saffron-robed Thai monk. My lineage of refuge is Vajrayana and my technique was influenced by Zen. I would like to ordain following the Pali texts and Thai rituals but with brown robes as a Thai/Zen monk. Would this be possible at your Wat? What are the requirement to ordain as a novice monk? You can contact me directly via my username at gmail if you prefer. Thanks.

This is possible.

Ordination and philosophical belief do not have to coincide. Korean Zen monks, for example, are ordained under Dharmaguptaka vinaya, but do not follow the Dharmaguptaka suttas etc.

However, Thai's mostly believe that Mahayana is a corruption of Buddhist practice and it would unlikely go down well if they knew of your plans in advance. However, once you do ordain you can practice in your own way. Wearing brown may be unusual and your temple abbot may not like it. Monks at one wat usually all wear the same colour robes.

Bankei

Here is a very interesting article regarding a major and far reaching mistranslation:

“Apāna and the Mistranslation of the “Anāpānasati sutta”

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2011/09/16/flatulence-and-breathing-meditation/#more-15764

basically, it seems Āpāna = farting and not exhalation.

Have a read of the comments too. Interesting

Bankei

Hi

Does anyone know the rules about living in Thailand and still qualifying for the Australian old age pension?

Is it possible?

Thanks

Bankei

I see quite a few fat monks....strange how that can happen if they only have one meal a day.

Have also heard horror stories of massive amounts of child molestation going on in temples during the season when the young novices stay at the temples. Have heard about it from many Thai adults. All hush hush though.

Too many Farangs get on here and start spouting BS about how the Thais shouldn't give to monks and shouldn't give so much. What business is it of yours if they have a correct understanding of the Dhamma and want to make merit....nobody forces them....we monks do not...and cannot ask for things. Westerners are notoriously stingy when it comes to giving when it gets in-your-face and personal. They are happy to send money to an anonymous large charity and feel good about themselves, but on the ground simple giving, especially when there is a hint of religion around..... another matter.

Hi Fabian

I would put it to you that is not a correct understanding of Dhamma.

Westerners are notoriously generous when it comes to helping people in need. Thais seem notoriously generous when it comes to helping themsevles (eg. by acquiring 'merit').

Plenty of monks do ask for things. One recently asked me to buy him a mobile phone. What about all those sermons where they preach how good it is to make merit?

Bankei

You are forgetting the importance of rituals.

Offering food and chanting are ritual acts. Many westerners, myself included, generally downplay the role and benefits of ritual in Buddhism.

Please expand. Thanks

Hi Chutai

I am no expert on rituals, but think they play an important psychological role as well as a social role. eg. Celebrating birthdays is a ritual. It makes the person on the receiving end feel good as well as others giving presents or attending the party etc. It also allows groups of related people to get together and bond etc.

Bankei

You are forgetting the importance of rituals.

Offering food and chanting are ritual acts. Many westerners, myself included, generally downplay the role and benefits of ritual in Buddhism.

Incidentally, there is no need to memorize Pali scripture to ordain. During the ordination ceremony the preceedure is in Pali and it does need to be memorised for the Bhikkhu ceremony, but it is not really scripture. It is a collection of some older verses as well as more modern verses. I guess the older verses may come from sections of the scriptures, but there is no need to memorise Sutras.

In fact the majority of the chanting that the monks in Thailand do today is not Sutra (sutta) but are modern verses mostly composed by King Mongkut when he was a monk. Mongkut was a great Pali scholar.

It is also unlikely that Pali was the language the Buddha spoke, but it is bound to be close. There is evidence too that at least some parts of the Pali canon was translated from another dialect. Does it matter? Not really, but sometimes it does as there could have been mistranslations made during the process. Prof K.R. Norman has done a lot of work is this area.

There are plenty of Thai translations of the Pali scriptures available.

Chutai, when you say you chant the Lotus Sutra in ancient Chinese, are you sure it is not the Japanese pronounciation of the Chinese version? “Namyo hou renge kyou”? (assuming you are a follower of Nichiren). I wouldn’t say Chinese was the original language of the Mahayana since it begin in India, but certainly it is for a vast number of Mahayana Sutras which were composed in China, many were also composed in Tibet. I think there have been Indian manuscripts founds of the Lotus Sutra and other evidence that it was composed in India.

Thai is also used in Temples. The monks don’t speak in Pali or teach in Pali, except when teaching the language.

And, Buddhist books are also for sale in Thailand!

Bankei

Hi Fred

Buddhism will be around for a lot longer than another 100 years I think. There have been 'bad' monks around since the time of the Buddha. What about the monk who kept a pet monkey for sexual pleasure because it was forbidden to have sex with women.

Even just after the Buddha died there was a dispute in Vesali regarding 10 points of vinaya (from memory). Also, monks were not supposed to handle money, but archeaological evidence shows some monks were counterfeiting currencies in their monasteries in ancient India (from Schopen).

There will always be good and bad monks and the bad will always out number the good.

There is a new documentary on a Finnish man who decides to become a monk, made by his sister who is a documentary film maker.

At this stage you need to request the link and the password to view it, more details at

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8387&start=0&hilit=documentary

My brother, buddhist monk

Santeri decides to become a monk in Thailand and to give up everything he has in Finland. His sister and the director of the documentary Anja Ahola, wants to understand her brother’s great decision to leave behind his possessions, friends and family and to become an ascetic Buddhist monk for the rest of his life.

น้องชายในผ้าเหลือง

ซันเทอรี่ (อายุ 26 ปี) ตัดสินใจทิ้งทุกสิ่งทุกอย่่างในฟินแลนด์ เพื่อมาบวชเป็นพระที่ประเทศไทย และเพื่อที่จะทำความเข้าใจกับการตัดสินใจอันยิ่งใหญ่ที่จะสละทุกอย่างทางโลกไม่ว่าจะเป็นข้าวของเครื่องใช้ บ้าน เพื่อน และครอบครัว และเข้าสู่โลกทางธรรมในชีวิตที่เหลือ พี่สาวของซันเทอรี่จึงลงมือกำกับและถ่ายทำสารคดีชิ้นนี้ขึ้นมา

Veljeni Buddhalaismunkki

Santeri (26) päättää lähteä munkiksi Thaimaahan ja luopua kaikesta mitä hänellä on koti-Suomessa. Hänen siskonsa, dokumentin ohjaaja Anja Ahola, haluaa ymmärtää pikkuveljensä suurta ratkaisua jättää koko omaisuus, ystävät ja perhe sekä ryhtyä askeettiseksi buddhalaismunkiksi loppuelämäkseen.

Directed by Anja Ahola

Production, Ima Filbma- ja Sátneduodji and Anja Ahola

Duration, 28´45

PRIVATE USE ONLY.

That's the trouble...if you ARE a forest monk, enjoying the peace and solitude of a cave etc., as soon as the lay people find out about you they will assume you ahve attainments and beat a path to your door. Cut down the forest to build a road, build a Viharn to create a temple about you so they can come and give you all kinds of unnecessary things, ruining the very thing you sought. You then have to wait for some other monks to take your place before escaping again in search of peace....the available forest and empty caves getting less and less all the while.

Catch 22??

Yes, very true.

I recall hearing about a Western monk, (Dutch maybe) in Sri Lanka. He resides in the forest somewhere and only comes out for bindabart once per day before disappearing again. Doesn't give talks, or interviews, but prefers the solitude.

This is the Buddhism forum....if he doesn't like it then he should stay out.

I do not like drinking, but I do not stick my head in pubs and shout that those there are all stupid.

How do you know Tanaka doesn't like Buddhism? It seems to me he was criticing lazy monks. Tanaka may be a devout Buddhist for all you know.

Also I should point out that I am a devout Buddhist myself. But just because you are a Buddhist doesn't mean you have to accept all the cultural baggage that has been added on over the centuries.

The situation with the Bhikkhu sangha today is nothing like it was at the time of the Buddha. It is now an institution. Corruption and decay have set in as well as natural change. Even the so called forest monks have changed since the time of Ajahn Mun - Jim Taylor has written about this in his excellent book Forest Monks nad the Nation State. Domestication starts when the monks started to settle down into temples. From wandering ascetics to domestic priests performing rituals.

There are probably monks out there practicing in the spirit of early Buddhism, but you are unlikely to hear or read about them.

Bankei

Encouraging others to stop making merit by giving is creating very bad karma for you Bankei....and especially shocking since you were ordained once!

Alms round isn't about what you get but giving the people the opportunity to make merit.

The fine opportunities to make merit here by being surrounded by monks and temples is one of the great things Thai people have. In the UK the few monks at the few temples cannot go on alms round because the local community is Christian.

Having wrong view is damaging for oneself, but teaching others to have wrong view is very strong karma.

Despite the numbers of bad monks here the lay people generally get what they deserve. Standards have slipped in the last 50 years as Thailand has modernised and it is also the lay people who have allowed it to happen.

If they stop supporting all monks the few good ones cannot survive either and Buddhism will soon disappear from Thailand.

I am not suggesting people stop giving. I beleive giving is good. I suggest people give to those most deserving.

Bankei

Perhaps you met some bad monks when you ordained, but it is wrong to assume all are like that.....unless you have the gift of mind reading or are able to see others karma..???

You are trying to decide who is the more deserving....that is OK...but don't push your views on other people if all you are doing is making assumptions.

I did see some bad monks. Senior ones too. Yes wrong to assume all are like that. But i have travelled throughout thailand and stayed at many temples, including many famous temples with famous monks. I have been impressed by a few, usually the mid range monk (in terms of vassa). I have met some famous 'forest' monks, but did not feel impressed.

I am not trying to push my views on to others, but wonder if it was really the intention of the Buddha to create a system of ritual giving to monks (like ritualised priests) to obtain merit. I call this religion "Thaam bunism" to distinguish it from Buddhism.

Encouraging others to stop making merit by giving is creating very bad karma for you Bankei....and especially shocking since you were ordained once!

That's alright Fred.

I will go out and cancel this bad karma by donating rice to a lazy monk (who probably has more money in a bank account than me). He probably won't need or eat the rice, but that doesn't matter as it is the ritual act that is important.

Karma cannot be cancelled out. It is not like a bank account which is either in the red or black but not both at the same time. it is like a seperate account for good and bad karmas and they cannot be wiped out....only used up.

You only make merit (good karma) from an act which is done with the correct intention. You giving to a monk, when you see the monk as a useless beggar, would get you almost no merit at all, and if done with contempt perhaps only get you bad karma.

How come you were ordained and never learned anything during that time. How long were you ordained and where? Was it done out of custom or to please others or did you ordain out of the real desire to improve yourself?

As we can see, the ritual act is pretty useless if only done as a meaningless ritual and without the proper intention.....so it is only important in the eyes of those who are ignorant of the truth.

Hi Fred

I was only having a go at you (jokingly of course). I know the Buddhist theory of Karma, but the Thais have their own theories and treat their version of merit as a way to defeat bad Karma. Of course this is just a generalisation. There may be a few people who hold the 'correct' view. Rituals can be important too, even hollow ones.

Encouraging others to stop making merit by giving is creating very bad karma for you Bankei....and especially shocking since you were ordained once!

That's alright Fred.

I will go out and cancel this bad karma by donating rice to a lazy monk (who probably has more money in a bank account than me). He probably won't need or eat the rice, but that doesn't matter as it is the ritual act that is important.

This may be a little off, but not enough to be bounced off of this topic, I hope.

How does a woman give to the monks? I know that I can't give them anything directly. If there is no one else around who is male to give it to them, what is the procedure then? Would it be to just put it on the ground (if it is money, this is against les majeste laws!) or wherever and then let the monk take it himself?

Thank you.

Anyse,

Women can and do give directly to the monk by putting items in the almsbowl. In Thailand, although there is not rule against this, Thai monks won't want to take anything directly from the hands of a woman. They will often use a cloth which they hand on to while the woman places the item on it. But on almsround the monk simply opens the lid of the bowl and you put things in the bowl.