Thaiquila

The signs are up there methinks because it just is not worth the aggravation for the little profit involved to the business owner. Who needs foreigners to bargain aggressively and without tact, even by Asian standards, for a few baat? It has nothing to do with racism,

Perhaps it does have to do with racism. Maybe it is the racism of the Israeli that enables the Israeli to treat their hosts with such little regard. I couldn't sau with any authority, as don't think I've ever met an Israeli, save for Israeli sailors, who are the same as sailors everywhere.

According to this authority on the subject:

Mr. Tzviely feels it is really only a minority of Israeli backpackers who are bad apples.

So, is it fair to ban an entire nationality based on a minority of bad ones?

Why not ban the other nationalities too?

Why just the Israelis?????

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...n1.d863df3.html

Lets get this clear again. Israelis are mostly Jewish people. Israel is a Jewish state. Jewishness is more than about religion. Most Israelis and most world Jews are NOT religious, but they are still Jewish. If you wish to ban Israelis, you wish to ban Jews.

It's a mainly Jewish country because in 1948 with the support of the USA it round up the majority of the arab population at gun point and dumped them like pieces of junk in the deserts of Gaza and the West Bank. No UN mandate, but luckily God had said it was OK...according to them.

(Might as well blame Hitler. If there was no Hitler, there would be no Israel.)

Interesting, simplistic telling of history, but thank you for expressing your anti-Israel sentiment. I actually think Israel was a mistake, but in our current day, it is a reality, and I don't see the justification of discrimating against Jewish Israeli backpackers. I continue to believe alot of this tolerance for the No Israeli signs is old fashioned stereotyping and anti-semitism.

The signs are up there methinks because it just is not worth the aggravation for the little profit involved to the business owner. Who needs foreigners to bargain aggressively and without tact, even by Asian standards, for a few baat? It has nothing to do with racism,

Perhaps it does have to do with racism. Maybe it is the racism of the Israeli that enables the Israeli to treat their hosts with such little regard. I couldn't sau with any authority, as don't think I've ever met an Israeli, save for Israeli sailors, who are the same as sailors everywhere.

Oh, that is rich.

And from such an authority, too!

Also, just noticed, again you say JEWISH ISRAELIES. Why? You yourself admit that not ALL Israelies are Jewish. These signs do not mention JEWISH Israelies, merely Israelies.

Pardon me if I am out of line, but you seem to have a Major chip on your shoulder about prejudice towards Jews? No-one has mentioned the Jews in these posts in a negative light.

Phil

PS - I am not Prejudice. I hate everyone equally.

Give me a break!

Almost ALL of the travelling Israelis you meet are JEWISH. Israel is a Jewish state, the only one in the world, the only one in history.

Nobody has said anything bad about Jews? Balderdash. This thread is littered with slander about Israeli Jews.

Israelis are Jews. Deal with it, anyone who supports and "understands" banning Israelis.

If you want to ignore thousands of years of history that show clearly Jews have indeed been

scapegoated and much worse, be my GUEST, though not as some here would say, if you are ISRAELI.

Again, these signs are highly offensive and totally unnecessary. All an owner has to do is enforce the SAME RULES for all nationalities.

I think your post is basically BS for one reason,

YES! Many English people are horrible yobs,

But, NO, no matter how bad these Yobs (and I would submit on sum they are a much bigger threat to law and order than Israelis) you will NEVER see a NO BRITS sign at a Thai guesthouse?

WHY again are the JEWISH ISRAELIS unfairly singled out for this treatment?

So, again, NO, I do not UNDERSTAND the signs. Why only the Israelis when there are other nationalities with greater numbers of OFFENSIVE individuals?

Great.

In any case, I think we all should BOYCOTT any such business practising this kind of discrimination. Now it is the Israelis, maybe the next ban will be a ban of YOU.

And for the record, I do not believe for one second that if owners observed the alleged offending behaviors from guests coming from any other Western country other than JEWISH ISRAEL, that they would have had the cajones to put up such a ban sign, e.g.: Canada, France, Italy, Germany, etc.

And how can you say the ban is not based on NATIONALITY, when the NATIONALITY of ISRAEL is scapegoated as the cause of all their business problems? As if there aren't scoundrels coming from ALL nations.

I said it once and I'll say it again: Boycott the Bigotted Guesthouses. They can ban (too bad that is legal), we can BOYCOTT.

So, you don't support racism but you do support discrimination based on Israeli NATIONALITY?

Oh, that sounds very reasonable!

So all Israelis are all the same and deserve to be painted with the same brush?

Brilliant!

It seems to me we are talking about two separate issues.

The guesthouse owners and why they post the signs, and the apparant tolerance of some farangs to these bans.

I don't think we really know the real story for the real motivations behind either of them. Before, I was poo pooed for suggesting that some of the owners might be Thai Muslims. How do you know that isn't the case? Thai Muslims are allied with Malaysia, an entire state that bans all Israelis from even entering Malaysia, and also a clearly anti-Jewish state. I know for a fact there is a good sized Thai Muslim community in Chiang Mai.

Regarding Israel, again it is a Jewish state, it is a Zionist state, and I still suspect that for at least some people, the tolerance for banning Israelis has something to do with the Jewish factor.

BTW, I have never met a travelling Israeli who was not Jewish, not that they don't exist, but they are clearly a small minority.

Notice the Israeli flag bears the Jewish star of David:

I accept that there may be a case for arguing that Europeans hold negative views about Israeli policies, but your comments were about how Europeans feels about Israelis. I can be angry about what Israel as a state is doing in Lebanon, but that does not necessarily mean I dislike Israelis.

Fair enough, but I personally will never consider it tolerable to post signs on guesthouses or any public business banning specific nationalities. And the fact that these signs are banning Israelis, and therefore, Jews, does raise the question as to why some farangs seem to find this OK.

Is there a connection to European anti-semitism and anti-Israeli sentiment? I don't know. I am asking though.

God forbid that I stereotype Europeans. But did I support BANNING them from guesthouses?

I thought it was a known fact there is poor support for Israel in Western Europe, with the possible exception of the UK. Am I wrong about that?

Now why do you think that many Europeans don't support Israel?

Because it is an objective fact?

Check this link http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conf...-2002-10-07.asp

and also ...

Why Americans Support Israel And Europeans Don`t

Posted 5/15/2002

By Glenn M. Frazier

"Glenn M. Frazier is a freelance writer and editor of GlennFrazier.com."

The European bureautocracy is shocked by the American stance toward Israel. The common views outside the United States range from seeing Israel as an oppressor state — some say "terrorist" — to the milder "well, both sides are guilty, but Israel is stronger."

Americans don`t see things that way.

I`m not Jewish. Most Americans aren`t Jewish. Large numbers of Americans, though (including myself), support Israel. What`s up with that? To listen to America`s critics, their implied message seems to be that only a Jew could care about the Jews, and that therefore something sneaky must be going on in the United States.

In a poll taken by the Pew Research Center in early April, the growing transatlantic gap in opinions on the Israel-Palestine conflict was confirmed. According to the poll, most people on the continent (France 63 per cent, Germany 63 per cent, Italy 51 per cent) disapprove of current U.S. policies with regard to the Middle East, while only 26 per cent of Americans themselves polled said they "disapprove".

Further, when asked to choose sides between Israel and the Palestinians, most Europeans either primarily sided with the Palestinians (France 36 per cent, Great Britain 28 per cent), or selected "neither" (Germany 33 per cent, Italy 32 per cent). Most Americans, on the other hand, placed their sympathies with Israel (41 per cent), with 21 per cent saying "neither" and only 13 per cent choosing the Palestinians. (Interestingly, in every country surveyed, those sympathizing with "both" were outnumbered by those choosing "neither.")

So what`s going on here?

First, it should be noted that in past polls, going back many years, Americans have generally always sympathized with Israel over the Palestinians, with percentages ranging from 34 per cent in 1990 to 48 per cent in 1997. Our views on this issue, in fact, have not changed substantially since before the September Atrocity.

This, of course, feeds the tired claims of a "Jewish controlled media" and the supposedly stunning power of Jewish lobby groups in the U.S. This is probably the oldest of attempted explanations for American support of Israel. As explanations go, though, these claims are not terribly convincing. If a "Zionist conspiracy" really ran this country, Arabs would be commemorating the thirtieth anniversary of Arafat`s martyrdom about now.

It is true that as lobby efforts go, those supporting Israel are among the most powerful. But how powerful is that? Certainly not enough to so radically sway common public opinion to the point that we see Israel exactly opposite of how Europe perceives Israel.

A more recent attempt at explaining American support for Israel involves two components of the Republican constituency that were core to President Bush`s election. The first is the Evangelical Christian movement. (The Boston Globe recently cited Evangelicals as strong supporters of Israel, dismissively implying the motives of the Christian Right as essentially scriptural.)

According to a recent article in The Economist, the other component, the so- called neoconservatives (an ever-shifting label), support Israel as part of an overall desire to see America "play a more forceful role in the world." That`s, well, interesting. Being occasionally tagged as a neocon myself, I find it hard to disagree with the author`s statement that "Neocons are obsessed with the grand design of foreign policy." But so what? I`d say Marxists are similarly obsessed, but — despite Israel`s regrettable socialist idiosyncrasies — this bare fact does not amount to anything.

So let`s be generous and lump these two groups together (the total Jewish population in America is too small to have a significant impact on these numbers, by the way) and not question the attributed motives. Do neocons and theocons really make up 41 per cent of the American Public? Some might wish that it were so, but how then would one explain two terms of Clinton? Remember, we`re talking about stable levels of public support for Israel since at least the late 1970`s.

Here`s one more data point: among Europeans, the "highly educated" were far more likely to respond as sympathizing with the Palestinians, compared to their non-Sorbonne-impaired neighbors. France, in particular, showed a dramatic difference among these two demographics, with only 30 per cent of French with "low" education supporting the Palestinians, versus 51 per cent of those with "high" education.

And here, I think, is the real cause of this historical rift between opinions. Call us middle-brow, say we lack nuance, whine about American exceptionalism, but the basic truth is that Americans are idealistic where Europeans are cynical, and cynics where Europeans are idealists.

Take the European response to President Bush`s declaration of the Axis of Evil, for example. Across all four European nations polled, the majority disapproved of the statement — France by a whopping 74 per cent. In the United States, the majority approved, with only 34 percent saying they disapproved.

So do Americans support Israel because we think the Second Coming is, well, coming? Do we do it out of some nefarious scheme to launch a New Imperialism? Are we bamboozled by the dreaded "Jewish Controlled Media"?

No. We believe — more than Europe does — that some things are just plain wrong. No excuses, no rationalizations. Like my mom used to say, "I don`t care what he did first, if you hit, you`re wrong!" Sure, that policy lacked nuance, but it certainly was clear.

President Bush`s popularity is in large part due to the great gift he brought us in September: moral clarity.

Academic quibbles among the intelligencia about moral equivalency and "root causes" frankly cause the average American`s eyes to glaze over. Sure, the average American thinks, Israel may have misbehaved. Sure, there should be a separate Palestinian state. But once people started blowing up pizza parlors, a far more important — and far more clear — problem walked onto the scene. Until the absolutely clear evil of terrorism, suicide bombing, and attempted policide is eliminated, other, lesser problems are put on hold.

Europeans call this idealism simplistic, and maybe it is.

On the flip side, Americans are sometimes dumbfounded to discover how oddly credulous Europeans are when it comes to so much else. Europeans put a value on words that is foreign to the average American. Just because "peace process" sounds like maybe there`s a process that can create peace, it does not mean that anything baring the label is actually worthy of any respect.

As idealistic as many Americans are when it comes to notions of right and wrong, we are deeply, deeply cynical when it comes to words and ideas. We are the "show-me" nation. And that`s one more reason the notion of a conspiratorial Jewish Controlled Media is so silly to the average American. Who trusts the media?!

We Americans sniff out conflicts of interest as a knee-jerk reflex, assume everyone has a bias, and know that just because there`s a picture of the batboy shaking hands with Jimmy Carter doesn`t mean the event actually happened. Some poor souls here still have a hard time accepting that Elvis is dead. I mean, did you see the body?

This, in the end, is the great divide between Europe and the U.S.: We believe nothing, they believe in nothing.

God forbid that I stereotype Europeans. But did I support BANNING them from guesthouses?

I thought it was a known fact there is poor support for Israel in Western Europe, with the possible exception of the UK. Am I wrong about that?

I am just trying to get to the real root causes of this tolerance for bigotry, or, if you wish, outrageously blatant discrimination.

A ban on Israelis equals a ban on Jews . . .

As a ban on Americans equals a ban on human beings of all ethnicities and religions? I don't think so.

I don't think so either!

But you see Israel is a JEWISH state and is mostly Jewish, so in the case of Israel, the concept does apply. I realize most people don't support Israel or Zionism. Is supporting banning Israeli citizens a reflection of that hostility, especially from Europeans?

Maybe Europeans are comfortable with passive weak Jews, and not proud, strong Israelis!

As always I disagree , the vast majority of jews in the world are not Israeli.

Several of these Jews are my friends.

I would guess that some of these Jewish people are also offended by the behiour of Israeli's.

I will ask them next time I see them.

Charma, I live in a Northern town popular with backpackers, this subject often comes up during conversation.

Good night all, off to eat my supper.

Shalom, salaam Alicum, peace be apon you.

OK, great.

But I think you will find that the vast majority of your Jewish friends would strongly oppose any ban on ANY nationality from a PUBLIC business, and most would take a ban on Israelis as very offensive, Israeli or not.

The majority, yes, but not the VAST majority:

Most estimates I have seen suggest that there are about 13-14 million Jews in the world. The vast majority of these Jews live in either the United States and Israel, each with approximately 5-6 million Jews. There are less than 2 million Jews in Europe, 400,000 in Latin America and 350,000 in Canada. In Africa, there are less than 100,000 Jews, about 90% of whom live in the country of South Africa. There are about 100,000 Jews in Australia and New Zealand combined. There are about 50,000 Jews in Asia (not including Israel).

http://www.jewfaq.org/populatn.htm

Actualy I had nothing but admiration for the state of Israel until I started backpacking & met alot of Israelis on trains & buses, guest houses & bars.

From my experiences I found that the vast majority of Israeli's were loud & obnoxious.

You keep banging on about being anti jewish & this is simply not true, I think you are useing it to stir up our collective guilty conciences about the Holocaust.

My aquired dislike of Israeli's has nothing to do with religion & does not make me a murdering Nazi !

There are different degrees of anti-semitism, Sir. You are of type that wishes to ban Jews, not murder them. How civilized of you.

Lets get this clear again. Israelis are mostly Jewish people. Israel is a Jewish state. Jewishness is more than about religion. Most Israelis and most world Jews are NOT religious, but they are still Jewish. If you wish to ban Israelis, you wish to ban Jews.

I personaly would not have a problem giving my custom to a bar, resturant or guest house with a "No Israeli" sign, right or wrong that sign gives me a better chance of passing my time without being disturbed by ".

Actually, it doesn't. It only reduces your chances of encountering ISRAELI loud, obnoxious "A$$holes."

Again, this tolerance for restrictions against people from the JEWISH state of Israel is enlightening. Not a big surprise, of course. Anti-semitism is still rampant in the world, especially among Europeans.

So, Pond Life, what happened in your life to contribute to your prejudice against Israelis (who just happen to be Jews)?

BTW: I expect to be flamed for saying this is anti-semitic, but I am convinced that it is. A ban on Israelis equals a ban on Jews, and what is more anti-semitic than that?

Look back through the posts,,, you are the one using "bigotry", you are the one using "racism". This post is about "WHY" a guest house owner would make a business decision to put up a sign saying " NO ****** " for anything. Could be any nationality or any color, or handicapped people, whatever. His business, his rules to paraphrase Blinkey Bill.

I think the thread is about NO ISRAELI signs because we have seen those signs. So, it is valid to ask why Israelis are being singled out for this disgusting treatment.

First time anyone has compared me to George Bush, certainly gave me a big chuckle!

It is simply a reaction to the experience that these people have had with a particular group of people.

Actually, you do NOT know that. That is your GUESS. It is a logical enough guess, but still just a guess.

Like I said, I challenge anyone to name ONE guesthouse in all of Thailand that is restricted to Israelis ONLY.

The example given above is not such a guesthouse.

http://www.travelfish.org/accommodation_pr.../6/518/21?ord=0

Thana Guest House targets itself primarily at the Israeli backpacker market, but non-Israelis are equally welcome

Name me one guesthouse in Thailand that is Israeli ONLY. I know there are some that specifically target that market, but name me ONE that has a sign, that says Israelis ONLY and would turn away non-Israelis who wanted to stay in a majority Israeli setting. I don't believe there is one.

Again, I have no problem with owners screening people based on obvious bad behavior. And I am not a "Kumbaaya" type of guy.

Again, I find this tolerance of bigotry strange, and I do believe it is tolerated because Israelis are Jews.

And I find this tacit acceptance of a stereotype that all Israelis are obnoxiously cheap to also be blatant racism. Many Israelis and many Jews are cheap. So are many Frenchmen and every other nationality. I have encountered this kind of bigotry in Thais regarding Indians quite often. Also despicable. We can love Thailand and the Thais, but we don't have to love Thai bigotry.

Gonzo,

I said before a restriction based on BEHAVIOUR is totally legitimate.

A restriction based on NATIONALITY (and the case of Israelis it is also a restriction based on race and religion by default) is a totally different thing.

No smoking sign, GREAT!

No Israeli sign, unacceptable bigotry.

Get it now?

It does not say race, religion, or what have you. You in your mind are putting the term religion and race into it.... If the term offends some, that is a shame, but those offended individuals are not the ones who have to pay this GH owners bills

So it is ME showing my bias, huh?

OK, the term No Israelis is indeed not related to race or religion, but rather a NATIONALITY, a nationality that just so happens to be the only JEWISH STATE in the history of the planet. Get real.

You have a lot of sympathy for these guest house owners. Where is your sympathy for the Israelis who just want to rent a room like everyone else? Are you also so bigotted that you also think all Israelis are bad guest house tenants?

Here is another case of totally benign bigotry based on NATIONALITY.

To the guy who said older Israelis would approve of the NO ISRAELIS signs, do you also think Irishmen welcomed these signs:

This is ridiculous. So you are saying it is code word for young Israelis just out of the army. I do not believe for one second that any Israeli of any age, or any Jew of any nationality would welcome such a sign of blatant bigotry.

If you tolerate such bigotry, that is your business.

This kind of sign is anything but subtle. It is in your face discriminatory and offensive. It is the same as the signs in the American south that used to say "No blacks" but they used a ruder word.

I still find the tolerance for this amazing. Is this a European thing?

If there is a BEHAVIOR that is prohibited in a guesthouse, how about posting rules against that BEHAVIOR, instead of insulting an entire nation and also all the world's Jews. Surely, Israelis are not the only nationality to exhibit the "undesirable" behavior these owners are trying to avoid, whatever that behavior might be.

In fact, most of the Thais I know in the tourist business here don't even realize that there is a difference between being Israeli and being Jewish.

???

Sound like you are backing my point.

I like Thais too, and I understand trying to see it from their perspective, but this kind of sign is beyond the pale.

How about I put up another sign:

NO KURDISTANIS

Nothing to do with KURDS. Kurds are welcome, just not Kurdistanis!

Same difference with Israelis.

If you don't believe me, how many American, French, or Argentinian Jews do you think you will find at the NO ISRAELI guesthouse?

As far as bringing religion into it, I didn't, the people who put up the signs did. Being Jewish is more than about a religion. The Jews are a "people" and most Israelis aren't very religious to begin with. But they are mostly Jewish people.

Thaiquila,

Again I disagree, these signs are not descriminating against people because of their religion but because of thier behavior.

I do agree that these signs are wrong, but they are a reflection of how fed up Thai people are of the behavior of a particular group.

How would you specifically KNOW what the specific motivation is of a specific guest house owner?

To me, it sounds suspiciously to me of racial stereotyping. Often the worse bigots have no experience at all of the groups they hate.

And, again, you are mistaken. If you are banning Israelis, and 90 percent of Israelis are Jewish, you are banning Jews. What is it about the term "Jewish state" that you don't understand?

Again, where does this tolerance for these signs come from?

Thaiquila,

I disagree,

A sign saying "No Israeli's" is not the same as one saying "No Jews".

Suggesting that people that have "No Isreali" signs are Muslim is to turn this into a religious question.

There are plenty of Arabs in Israel. If they come to Thailand & act in a loud, rude & agressive way they will be equaly unwelcome irespective of religion.

I am sorry, but this is a religious and also a racial issue.

Aren't over 90 percent of Israelis Jewish? Malaysia in effect also bans Arab Israelis. Any tolerance whatsoever for these "No Israeli" signs is despicable.

Again, imagine how rude and offensive:

"No French"

"No Mexicans"

"No Africans"

You get the picture. Why the tolerance for "No Israelis?"