Grey11

Every single Thai I know supports this man - I hope in the weeks and months ahead, he shows everyone a path towards peace, reconciliation and unity.

Why doesn't that surprise me? Being a member of PAD I should imagine you are quite cut off from the rest of the world.

Every decent Thai I know thinks he is the leader of the most evil government Thailand has known for decades.

Don't think the rest of the world doesn't know what went on in Thailand in the last few days. All the manipulation of the Thai press and the take over of Thai Visa Forums will not suppress the truth indefinitely.

The people of Thailand will learn the truth over time.

However, I too hope for reconciliation and unity, but that won't come through people like you.

Government officials in many Western countries have been interviewed since the Reds commenced trying to burn Bangkok to the ground and not one blames the present government. When the U.S. Ambassador to Thailand was asked if he thought Thaksin Shinawatra was behind the Red Shirts. He answered, "Yes I do. 200%. All the pro-Red Shirt bias, half-truths & lies put out by CNN & the BBC were corrected by their reporters toward the end of these riots, admitting for the first time that the Red Shirts were armed and in fact firing live ammunition, possessing Ak47S, M74 grenades & launchers, all supplied by Seh Daeng, stolen from the Thai Army. As the Reds arrested begin to squeal like pigs on who their financiers are in order to get lighter prison sentences, the whole world will know the whole story. As the huge stockpile of weapons that were recovered from the Red camp are shown to the whole work all will know they were terrorists working for Thaksin. You Red sympathisers will soon find that all that believe what you say are a buncy of brainwashed, uneducated peasants who will never be anything in their lives but followers, for sale the highest bidder, people like Thaksin.

I don't think there can be reconciliation or peace unless Abhisit and Suthep resign from there current positions.

Too much blood has been spilled, Thais do not forgive and forget.

Why should PM Abhisit give in the demands of these Red Shirt & Puea Thai Party thugs? There is not one person in Thai politics that can lead as well as the current PM. Noticed that the farang Red Shirt sympathisers (Thaksin's cheering section) wanted to mention that the more than 2,000 women & children in the Red Shirt camps got out without any deaths. The Red Shirt sympathisers (some are just anarchists & love things like the riots) want to give the three Red Shirt terrorist leaders credit for ending the violence. Yet, the night before the army moved in at dawn, someone in the military tipped the Reds off which allowed many of Seh Daeng's black shirt terrorist mercenaries, some cowardly Red Shirt leaders (remember, "we will fight for the death for democracy" yeah, right!) and other thugs escaped and were able to continue the violence by looting, bombing, burning down more than 30 businesses. The Reds (who "care" about the plight of the poor) were able to put thousands of the poorest working people out of a job. The burning of Central alone put more than 1,000 people out of work. Yep. The Reds were working for the "poor." Everyone in the world now knows they were working for the sociopath, ego-maniac, criminal Thaksin Shinawatra. A man who soon will have no country except Fiji which will accept him. Even the French don't want him around. And, when the French don't want someone with money in their country, well, that means nothing but a Communist country will take him. Maybe he can join his Chinese Communist Comrades in Beijing. What about his other Chinese friend and business partner, the dictator Lee in Singapore?

The difference is, that Lincoln doesn’t have several paragraphs on his wiki page concerning corruption and scandals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhisit_Vejjajiva

The victors write the history books. Lincoln was in office during a war and Presidents are judged much more softly during war. All of the quotes by Lincoln in which he doesn't oppose slavery and even suggested maybe the Blacks could be sent back to Africa during debates have been left out of the history books. Lincoln even told those states that were contemplating withdrawing from the U.S.A. to form their own country (which they did using the original U.S. Constitution with a capital, C.S.A. Reps. & Senators, governors in individual states, etc.) that he would allow each slave to count as 1/3 of a vote but not a full vote. But, he would not lift the heavy taxes on produce grown in the southern states particularly when they tried to sell to England, France and other countries. But, I do not wish to cause further controversy or take this any further. Fact is when a President is assassinated, as Kennedy was, many of their failures and evil deeds are forgiven and forgotten. Not of their own choosing of course, but they become matryrs. Wikipedia, like all U.S. history has been molded to fit the times and to be forgiving.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva is honest and good. He has tried to stop the highjacking of the nation with as little bloodshed as possible and yesterday was handled well. Now there is the problem of some very sore losers.

Many people have said that Thailand needs a great leader right now and Abhisit might very well be that man. The Abraham Lincoln of Thailand ? Maybe. Only time will tell.

I think the author give Lincoln more credit than he deserves. When you have the enemy outnumbered by the tens of thousands and have nearly all manufacturing in your area, it doesn't take a brilliant man to defeat a badly outnumbered enemy. Still, it took four years and then 13 years of bitter Reconstruction to whip the Southerners into line. But, Lincoln was a much more compassionate man than those in his Cabinet who took over power upon his assassination. Lincoln probably would not have set out to punish the Southern States nearly as severly as did those who took his place that hated the Southerners and all they stood for with a passion. They did not believe in bringing the nation together. They believed in revenge. Therefore, 13 years of terrible suffering known as Reconstruction was the fate of the Southerners - particularly those who fought for the Confederate States of America in the war. The first step was the Bank of the U.S. to raise taxes on Southern land so high that the Southerners (who were totally broke at the end of the war) could not afford to pay taxes. Thus they lost their land to Carpetbaggers (Yankees who came South with money in bags made of carpet & bought the land for pennies on the dollar), not more than two ex-Southern soldiers were allowed to speak together in a group without arrest, Southern officers lost their right to vote and most C.S.A. veterans were not allowed to run for office - state or federal, and Pres. Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were stripped of their citizenship as "traitors." Now I realise that many in the northern U.S. consider all C.S.A. generals & other officers to be "traitors" and would rather they have been executed, which was a battle fought amongst those who ruled after Lincoln died. Seward, even had Robert E. Lee's signed letter pledging his allegiance to the U.S. after Reconstruction giving him back his citizenship hidden. Lee died a non-citizen of the U.S. In the early 1970s the letter Lee signed was found among the belongings of one of Seward's relatives and in 1974 U.S. Pres. Gerald Ford (from Michigan) posthumously, gave Robert E. Lee his citzenship back. I think Lincoln was a good man and did what he had to do. I think the same about PM Abhisit. Although I do think PM Abhisit is, all in all, a kinder and more intelligent man than was Abraham Lincoln.

Better they burn their own city and resources than those of other cities.

Ever consider that Bangkok has been taking most of their share of the resources for years....?

Bangkok is the capital of Thailand. In every state in the U.S. the majority of taxes go to that state's capitol. Much more from each state goes to the capital of the country, Washington, D.C. The states are allowed to dole out some money for cities & counties but the rest of the money the states get come from the capital, Washington, D.C. It is pretty much that way in every country in the world. The capitals of most countries such as Paris (France), London (UK) are the capitals where the government representing all parts of the country meet to make the laws that govern the people. And, so, Bangkok gets money from the provinces, including the province Bkk is in, and puts it all in a big pot and then the government in Bkk decides where that money is to be spent. Of course they have the help of the representatives from each province & municipalities to vote on who gets what. All of Isaan is a net gainer in money from Bkk. All the provinces in Isaan to generate more money that is given to them - each province. Even in Communist countries such as Cuba, they have a capital, Havana, and in that city it is decided by whomever who gets what. Bkk needs more money to operate a city of 12 million people than does Maha Sarakham which has 80,000 population. That is the way it is. How would you change this?

Disaffected, uneducated, unemployable, lazy 'Baan Nork', oiled up on Lao Khao, and angry because the pipeline of handouts has dried up decide to burn their own homeland.

They would have been better off all along, following the Sufficiency Economy model, adopting some modern farming techniques, and investing those handouts in that, instead of spending the money on new pickups and motorcycles they can't pay for, and basically complaining all the time about their lot in life and blaming the invisible "elite".

Ironically, Abhisit has recently helped them all greatly, with farmer debt relief, by instituting free education and moving towards a social welfare society which he has publically advocated on numerous occasions.

Unfortunately, all of that takes time and effort, and therefore doesn't feed into the impatient Baan Nork's sense of entitlement, and need for instant gratification via handouts, without work.

During his 5 years in power, Thaksin created a monster, by giving these country folk easy money. The country is now reaping the "reward" for his largesse funded by tax-payers' money (largely Bangkok tax-payers, ironically).

If there is such a thing as karma, one hopes that Thaksin gets his just desserts for causing all of this.

Another good post - seems the forum is getting thinking members at last LOL

Put in better English than the way my Thai wife of 30 years has been saying for years about the people of Isaan. BTW she would be considered an elite by these people as she earned a degree @ Chulalongkorn and earned a master's degree in the U.S. where we lived for 30 years until retiring here in Phuket in Aug. 2009. Her family was not wealthy. Her mother sold all the gold & jewels handed down from generation to generation to pay for the university education of four children. Her own brother lives in Maha Sarakham & we have visted many times through the years. All I saw - and this was from the school teachers, principals, superintendents, etc. - was drinking and gambling. Her own brother's wife's two sisters husbands who were always drunk & gambling away their wages finally left for Bkk and never came back to leave my brother-in-law to help raise their children. Many, many people in Isaan have their hands out & don't want to work never knowing that the government subsidises their rice & other farm products. That the Isaan economy is in the red & can only survive by subsidies that come from the "elite" that they hate so much in Bangkok.

May I suggest that factual information about trouble in the provinces stay at the earlier thread here, and this thread be reserved for opinions and comments of a less objective nature?

Spreading the factual up-dates over many threads makes it so hard to keep up with the situation in the provinces. Please?

Do you own this thread? You can skip over those remarks you don't like or you consider off subject. I do it all the time. All of these threads ARE tied together because you have Red Shirts from the North and Northeast wreaking havoc all over Bkk and the north & northeast of Thailand. These are ignorant thugs who care about nothing. Those who take up for these people are condoning the violence. Period.

Rhetorical question: Can anyone tell me why the Red Shirts would want to destroy places where so many of them work and make their money? I am just so sick and tired of this fighting between the Red Shirts and Yellow Shirts. I have no doubt that most of the Thai people feel the same way and are completely sick of both sides.

One word. "Ignorance."

Might be a blessing in disguise. Let the up country folk feel a little of the pain we have had in BKK for almost 2 months, and it might open their eyes in the next election.... Then again....

I don't think they care. To them all of the beautiful 20th & 21st century buildings that house agencies of the federal government are signs of the "elites" that they seem to hate so much. Perhaps they think these buildings were built for the elitiest foreigners. To them the rest of Thailand has no significance. It is only a place for their daughters & sons & husbands who get tired of raising their families escape to - mainly Bangkok, Pattaya & Phuket. Thaksin is their God and without him they have no hope. All they want is another government handout. But, eventually when they burn down all the government buildings, they may have to take a bus to Bkk for a handout. All they care about is drinking and gambling - one of the reasons they are as poor as they are. I have been all over Isaan many times and I have seen all of this.

Does anyone have a list of these provinces under curfew?

They are listed on the story on TV on the Curfew. It appears that all provinces in Isaan are under curfew. Many government buildings are being burned by Red Shirts in all the major cities in Isaan.

not happy about this curfew going on for 3 more nights. that leaves the weekend in ruins. anyone know if its still possible to go out for a few drinks in bangkok anywhere at all?

Why can't you drink at home for a few night? Look how much money you can save. You can get a female for entertainment if you like and play some music on the stereo, will not be nearly as loud. You may even want to partake in a conversation with the young lady. Not the end of the world.

Angry people, keep calm

Perhaps you should get in touch with the Reds in Isaan who are torching many government buildings. People in Bangkok have a right to be very angry. These terrorists have left thousands jobless - most of them the poor who work in the malls & other businesses torched and ransacked. This is no time for Red Shirt apologists to flood TV like they did last night with their excuses. There are no excuses for murder, arson & other acts of violence. Here's hoping Thaksin, other financiers of the attempted coup and the Red Shirt leaders get many, many years in prison. Thailand does not need such scum on its streets in any area, not even Isaan.

I'm kind of wondering why the fire extinguishers in Central World didn't work. Possibly because the government turned off the water?

It wouldn't have burned down unless someone set a fire. Duh!

PS: See the "Not terrorists. Peaceful protesters" clapping and cheering as Central World burns down.

I think we knew what kind of "people?" - and I use the term very loosely - these Red Shirts are. They feel great because to them they finally got back at the "elites" who they hate even though without the elites there would be no jobs, no civilisation for these scumbags to live in.

I completely agree with that. I remember when the protests was at the bridge, not yet at Rajprasong. The government wanted the bridge cleared and ordered the protesters to move elsewhere. Then they moved to Rajprasong. When they got tired of that, instead of negotiating and keeping it at Rajprasong, they started pushing them out of Rajprasong and they ended up spreading all over the city. I believe a UN official compared it to squeezing a water balloon.

Something must have happened last night, though. The Democrat Senators that were negotiating with the red shirts seemed to come in kind of an agreement and there was even answer from Abhisit that they would hold tri-party (government, senators, red shirts) talks on Wednesday. Then however, on Wednesday morning, the government started with the crackdown.

I'm sure that nearly every stage of what has happened has been mishandled. And especially last night, when a breakthrough seemed so near and negotiations almost resuming ...the crackdown was launched. And now the city is burning. This didn't need to happen. I would have liked to see all sides give peace another chance.

We need A LOT MORE people thinking in this kind of pragmatic manner now. But sadly all I hear is "THAT's WHAT THEY WANTED ALL ALONG!" CRUSH THE RED VERMINS!". If we go at it that way, there will be civil war. We were warned this would be the result of a violent crackdown, and yet goverment and red leaders alike steadily worked towards it. Clinging to empty principles and blown up egos on both sides, made most negotiations look like kindergarten.

To make things worse the government totally miscalculated the whole affair right from the start, constanly underestimating the reds while overestimating their own strength (a game the red are also really good at). They knew seizing his assets would provoke a criminal egomaniac like Thaksin to push for another red shirt protest, but they thought it could be dispersed of relatively easy like a year before. So they made a spectacle out of it, applauding themselves daily for finally showing their archenemy that they had the upper hand. They could have let the court case linger, just keeping the money forzen, at least until the next elections would have given them a clear mandate. But they didn't and instead gave the radical reds all the ingredients they needed to exploit rurals Thailand's feelings of political disenfranchisement and turn a big part of the movement into a violent mob, that now took on a life of its own. Concerning Central World and several government buildings in the provinces one should ask why it they were not better protected, even though new threats to do exactly what we see today were issued nearly every day of the week. Once again it seems the government and many hardliners that thought military force alone could end this crisis underestimated the impact the crackdown would have. Now the warnings we hear are of a possible Civil War. And again they are overtoned by cries for military force, unrestricted killings and draconic punishments to give all anti-reds a sense of revenge.

This is a crossroads for Thailand. One path leads to peace achieved through a pragmatic policy of real reconciliation that stops the spiral of hate. But the more likely possibility is indeed Civil War, and then it won't matter anymore who's had the moral highground today.

Any other country in the world would have used military force to clear these terrorists out one week at the latest. That includes all democracies, Socialist & Communist countries. The dictatorships & Communist governments might have allowed the terrorists two days to disperse. The government tried to negotiate with people (Red Shirts) who didn't want to negotiate. They came to Bangkok to overthrow the government by any means possible. For more than two months the PM tried to negotiate with them, tried to avoid bloodshed. But you can't negotiate with thugs, terrorists, especially those who are paid mercenaries.

I think it was a near miracle that the government got thousands of women & children out of the Red Shirt camps without any of them dying today. It looks as though the burning of certain buildings belonging to the "yellow Shirts" by Thaksin's army was all planned. We will know the real story when the Red Shirt leaders begin to sing. There are Seh Daeng's Black Shirts that were captured they will also sing. Twenty-30 years in prison or tell who your financiers were and we can give you a mere two years in prison. Many of the women in the Red Shirt camps were afraid to leave. They were told that the soldiers would kill them. That they weren't really Thai soldiers. That they might be harmed if they took the government's buses back to Isaan. Those who actually believe in the Red Shirts - and I think many on TV do not but are just plain revolutionaries that enjoy any band of the "poor/peasants" who try to overthrow a government - will soon know the real truth. Not that it matters to many of the Red Shirt apologists. Too many people have been taken into custody that some will not break and squeal like a pig. Thaksin WILL be implicated and the whole world will know how one man orchestrated an attempt to overthrow a sovereign government by force. Thaksin will be an international pariah and unwelcome in any civilised country and just may be branded a terrorist and eventually captured and imprisoned in Thailand.

R

I completely agree this is not the way to solve things. But I also think that the violent mob that has been causing a lot of this wasn't really ever part of the red shirt movement and what it was about. I believe that the intentions of the real red shirt movement were always non-violent, but the groups that then got attached is what steered the whole truck off the street, so to speak. Anyone can now claim to be a red shirt and cause the problems he's always wanted to cause. And I'm sure there are a lot of people doing that right now. I don't think it was ever the intention of the poor rural population that came to Bangkok to sit in front of the stage with their relatives and children.

When Thaksin brought in Sae Daeng full-time as a mercenary, Sae Daeng brought in the mercenary killers known as the Black Shirts to teach the Red Shirts how to use the M79 grenade launchers, make molotov cocktails, etc. These men were armed with AK47s. I imagine Sae Daeng was able to steal loads of military equipment for the upcoming battle as he still has many comrades in the military. At one time the Red Shirt leaders were looking for anyone to be a Red Shirt - drug addicts, alcoholics, convicts, assorted criminals, etc. Now that the Red Shirts have fully released their bloodthirsty hatred for the "elites" Red Shirt apologists are saying that these people burning down all the businesses they can in Bkk and all over the north and northeast, are not Red Shirts. They are Red Shirts. The aim of the Red Shirts was to overthrown the government by any means necessary and that included force. Maybe some of the brainwashed and uneducated peasants who so willingly came to "fight for democracy" had good intentions but still took the money, originally had good intentions. But, they are sheep, followers, and hour after hour of fiery revolutionary talk by the Red Shirt leaders, and they became pawns and some engaged in violence. Certainly many engaged in extending the borders of their nasty camps in broad daylight with police simply watching. I wonder if any of them who were promised more money if they stayed ever got paid. I doubt it. And the tens of thousands or more Thaksin and his wealthy comrades paid to the Red Leaders will probably not be passed out to the so-called "poor" whom these cowards stood behind as human shields.

I think the reds are basically peacefull, but Abhisit always changes his mind saying I will desolve parliament and organise elections, the putting all this on hold!

How can anyone trust him?

I would get violent too

Abhisit has to resign if he wants peace back in Thailand!

Another Red Shirt plant coming late to the game. Abhisit offered to step down (dissolve Parliament) in Sept. and hold elections in Nov. That is one year early from the Constitutional guarantee of an election in Nov. 2011. He asked the Red Shirts to end the protest. At first, it was said that they agreed, then they changed their mind (after word from Thaksin saying that the leaders would not be paid if they gave in) and after a couple of days it was withdrawn as they said, "NO."

Only then was it pulled from the table. Abhisit called their bluff. The Reds could have walked away with a victory. They could have gone back to their strongholds in the North and say to their comrades: "We were able to get elections one year earlier than it was supposed to be held." But, they wanted more deaths, more martyrs, and more money. So PM Abhisit was not taken up on his promises. How could he then break them? If you want to get violent take a bus or drive up north or to the northeast and join the Red Shirts there who are burning down all government buildings. I'm sure they could use more people to throw firebombs. You could help them burn down their civilisation.

They were not armed JUST LIKE the reds, who had high powered rifles, grenades, and RPGs.

The Yellows have the entire Royal Thai Army to protect them and their flags.

Then they are well stuffed...

Is that old Che Guevra hero of the Cuban Revolution with that great humanitarian Fidel Castro back with another name, same photo.

Strange how so many thais wear T-Shirts with the murdering terrorist Che on them and have no idea who the He--ll he was. Now, these heroes of the Revolution have these terrorist Red Shirts to look up to. I wonder how many will get their pictures on T-Shirts and sell like hotcakes to the "poor" of Isaan. On Friday or Sat. night they can all get together while drinking cheap thai whisky and waiting for the results of the lotto and talk about the great revolution when their comrades burned down all the government buildings in every city in Isaan. Too many of these people drink away their hard earned money & play the lottery on the weekends while their families do without. I know all about it. I have visited my brother-in-law many a time in Isaan and seen it far too often. It is a way of life & is an endless cycle. That is one of the reasons most of the people in Isaan have little to nothing. The only ones who have anything for their families are the ones who live off some farang that married one of the Isaan women. That farang raises very extended families.

Please provide evidence of these draconian laws that you refer to,and who implemented them ?

if you are to play the blame game ,at least understand at who and what you are angry with !

You're too blind, obviously. And we're not allowed to talk about it remember. Power to the People!

I think that anyone who has been watching this riot unfold on television has seen the Red Shirts expanding their borders with tires, sharpened bamboo sticks & razor wire as the policemen stood by and watched. There is an old saying that applies here, to kill the snake first you have to cut off the head. The police allowed the expansion and are partly to blame for the violence. Once the Red Shirt terrorist leaders are all in custody the government needs to begin firing policemen & members of the military that stood by, ran & dropped their weapons - thus further arming the Reds. Their sympathies are evidently with the Reds and they refused to do their jobs. Mass firings are in order. The military in every country in the world takes an oath when hired to do what their leaders tell them to do - Commander in Chief, whether PM or President. When they refuse to abide by their oath (not doing their job) in the military they are court martialed and drummed out of the military. It was evident that many refused to abide by their oath, refused to take orders, and that is reason enough for them to lose their jobs.

I am happy those leaders came to their senses and did the right thing, both for their own followers and the other people of Thailand. I hope they get a fair trial and sentence.

I certainly hope that the government doesn't give these thugs bail. They have vowed to fight another day. They will lead further burnings of government buildings all over Thailand. Already their comrades are burning government buildings all over Isaan. These terrorists are definitely flight risks and there is a good chance that they would leave the country. Of course Thaksin may be angry that they did not fight to the death as the promised him they would do. On several occasions these Red leaders said they would fight to the death. But, it was all talk as long as they had women & children for shields and their lives were not in danger. If they get a "fair trial" they will get many years in prison. Attempting to overthrown any government anywhere in the world generally gets those perpetrators long sentences in prison. Even now their comrades continue to burn government buildings all over the north and northeast. This is the example they set and they should pay dearly for it.

i sure hope the red shirt leaders don't "admit" they committed crimes and get off on bail.

I'm with you on that Danielle. They are definitely flight risks and shouldn't get bail. Looks like some of their brave Red cronies got tipped off last night and fled to Cambodia or wherever. And, I thought I heard two of those who turned themselves in say that they would fight to the death.

i sure hope the red shirt leaders don't "admit" they committed crimes and get off on bail.

I can't believe when Promphan turned himself in that he was allowed to make a long speech just as he has been doing for more than two months. It looked like he was a hero.

I think it was Jatuporn who made the speech when he turned himself in. Sorry. My congratulations to PM Abhisit. Maybe with these Reds in jail we can begin to make Thailand a great country like it deserves to be.

i sure hope the red shirt leaders don't "admit" they committed crimes and get off on bail.

I can't believe when Promphan turned himself in that he was allowed to make a long speech just as he has been doing for more than two months. It looked like he was a hero.

sadly,

there are more than a few people around who love to see the powers that be, 'send a message' to the lesser classes.

ef

In the case of these terrorist lawbreakers you are correct. They are still setting buildings on fire, looting, shooting at the army & police. These people must be stopped before half on Bangkok is burned to the ground. The police who stood around and watched as the Red Shirts built barracades - thus expanding their territory - day by day and just watched, need to be disciplined. But, if this is the manner in which the lower classes intend to act, then they need to be put in their places. Many poor people all over the world do not break the law by burning buildings and other acts of terrorism.

Bon Kai on Fire

UPDATE : 19 May 2010

Fires ablaze in Bonkai; at least 10 shops on fire; looting of other shops; banks being stormed.

http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/tan/ViewData...?DataID=1029492

Perhaps the government of Cambodia, through one of its economic advisors, Thaksin Shinawatra, has offered sanctuary to the Red Shirt (UDD) leaders. Perhaps some are already there. Like Thaksin, these Reds didn't stay to fight.