Mike Teavee

July 23

On 7/22/2024 at 2:42 PM, retarius said:

You can go to Liverpool and get it the same day, actually within 4 hours of submitting it. Cost a few years ago was 110 pounds/

I'm not sure you can do that anymore, I believe you can do all of the processing same day but cannot pick it up the same day & they mail it out to you.

I've just done mine via Thai Visa Express in Pattaya & it took less than 3 weeks to get a new Passport with the visa/re-entry stamps transferred, cost was 12,000B for a "Jumbo" passport + 1,000B for the transfers.

July 22

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

I dont arrive until late aug.

I anticipate what happens is that I carry that piece of paper around every time I come and go, and I get a 180 day permission of stay inked in.. Thats sort of the same process for multiple entry tourist visas issued via evisa

TBH I'm not familiar with eVisas but with the Elite (& LTR I believe) you let them know when you're arriving & they arrange to have a 5 year (or up to the date your passport expires) Visa sticker affixed to your passport.

If they haven't mentioned anything to you about needing to do that then I'd guess you are correct & you just need to carry that piece of paper with you for the next 5 years but it would be interesting to see what happens when you turn up & your Passport doesn't match the number on the eVisa... Feels like you would also need to carry your old passport with you until the Visa expires.

July 22

26 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Yes DTV and I was the poster who uploaded the DTV to the forum in another thread.

Found it

So you have an eVisa but haven't used it to enter Thailand yet.

What happens when you do use it to enter Thailand? Do you carry on using that piece of paper or will they put a Visa Sticker/Stamp in your Passport? If it's the latter then I would expect this to be valid until the end of your passport, but when you get a new passport they'll put a new Visa Stamp into your passport valid until the end of the 5 year DTV as happens with the Elite Visas.

July 22

8 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

No my passport expires in 26 and my visa runs to 29

I take it you're on a DTV as I'm sure I've read with Elite you only get a Visa up until your passport expiry date.. Can you post a redacted pick of it.

I'll be honest that doesn't make sense to me as Visas are tied to Passport numbers, do you have an actual visa sticker in your passport or an eVisa piece of paper?

July 22

36 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You are missing quite a lot in allowances

Even if not a pensioner

a better site is https://www.uobam.co.th/en/tax-calculation

but even then it can’t account for the Thai OAP allowance nor received pension allowance or foreign tax paid

Thanks, I note that the UOB site comes back with 84,600 on 84K (1,008,000 THB pa) as it gives everybody a 100K "Expenses" Allowance but I'm not sure what the criteria is for being able to claim this is. I know it's available for employment & pension income but I don't know if you could claim it if you were living on Rental/Dividend income.

However, in my mind I was thinking of somebody with the bare minimum allowances remitting pension already taxed in the UK so I should have also included this 100K allowance alongside the 60K personal allowance.

July 22

51 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Really? Paying THB 1K a year is going to have people going elsewhere?

PH

TBH I'm unsure of my maths now as I used this site https://ata-outsourcing.com/calculate-your-personal-income-tax/ which says that if you have an income of 84,000 pm you'll pay 6,900 THB tax which comes out at 82,800

But if I do it myself using the published tax bands then I come up with

60K @ 0% = 0 (Personal Allowance)
150K @ 0% = 0
150K @5% = 7,500
200K @ 10% = 20,000
250K @ 15% = 37,500
190K @ 20% = 38,000

... Total of 103,000 THB - So it might be you owe 21K pa if you've already paid UK Tax on the 1Million remitted.

Obviously if you have additional allowances (e.g. Wife, Kids, >65, Health Insurance etc...) then the number comes down.

July 21

22 minutes ago, JDMCanuck said:

Assuming is never good but I assume they will likely handle expired passports with the DTV still having a couple years left in them, the same as other visas? Can someone enlighten me on that procedure? Im only hesitant to apply for the DTV as my passport expires in 2 years. Thank you so much.

Using the Elite visa as an example, you need at least 12 months left on your passport to apply & they will grant you the visa up to the expiry date of your passport.

With the Elite Visa you then go back with your new passport & get the remaining 3 years so I would imagine it would be the same with DTVs.

July 21

5 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

All possible, but are they probable?

I could address each of your 8 points, but how relevant are they?

You have to remember, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY is there for the taking, in one way or another, and farang are soooooooo easy targets.

Have you ever known Thai's to walk away from easy MONEY?

Bearing in mind an Expat bringing in 1Million THB of already taxed income (e.g. Pension) from the UK is liable to a max of 1,000B (One Thousand Baht) tax for the year.

1Million THB = approx. £21,300
UK Tax on £21,300 .= approx. £1,750 = approx. 82,000 THB Tax already paid
Thai tax on 1,000,000 after minimum TEDAs = approx. 83,000 THB

... I just can't see see how Thailand won't lose Money (from Expats) by introducing this as it will drive people to:-

Not remit as much money & find ways of reducing their spends in Thailand (e.g. have more holidays outside of Thailand)
Not make any large purchases (Condos cars etc...)
Spend <180 days per year here.
Choose somewhere else to live.

There are obvious exceptions of Expats who get their income from things like Capital Gains where they haven't paid any tax but these are the guys who are even more likely to choose Options 3 or 4 and not only will Thailand not get any Tax from them, but they'll lose all of the money they would have spent if they were living here year round.

July 21

2 hours ago, retarius said:

They should be happy enough with the hundred plus thousand dollars I spend here every year.

If you've got the income coming in to match that spend (a min of $80,000 pa or $40,000 pa if you're willing to invest £250,000) then you should look into the LTR Visa which will exempt you from tax on any money you remit to Thailand.

Should have no problems keeping your Thai Bank Account & Driving License if you do decide to be resident for <180 days pa.

July 21

15 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

You're right. They're not. But the source has misinformed, by saying that they are.

The source is being deceptive, using people's lack of knowledge to create fear to help them sell accounting services.

For anybody who fancies a nice light read (!!!) I've just stumbled across TRD's CRS document...

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/FATCA_File/crs/Thailand_CRS_Guidance_280823.pdf

July 21

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

This is another problem with the source cited by Mike, that source Expat Tax states explicitly that these transactions ARE reported via CRS to the revenue department.

The source is not correct, do you agree?

I had a look through the CRS XML Schema (https://web-archive.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/common-reporting-standard/schema-and-user-guide/index.htm) and as far as I could see it only reports closing balances (might be end of day, week, month but at least once per year) so I don't believe ATM or Credit Card transactions are reported (at least that way).

Edit: I don't seem to be able to download the CRS XML Schema at the moment & not sure if I still have it on my old Laptop but the overview seems to be saying it's an annual exchange of information...

The Common Reporting Standard (CRS)

The Common Reporting Standard (CRS) was developed in response to the G20 request and approved by the OECD Council on 15 July 2014. Based on a comprehensive review of the CRS, a number of amendments were adopted in 2023.

The CRS calls on jurisdictions to obtain information from their financial institutions and automatically exchange that information with other jurisdictions on an annual basis. It sets out the financial account information to be exchanged, the financial institutions required to report, the different types of accounts and taxpayers covered, as well as common due diligence procedures to be followed by financial institutions.

The CRS was designed with a broad scope in terms of the financial information to be reported, the Account Holders subject to reporting and the Financial Institutions required to report, in order to limit the opportunities for taxpayers to circumvent reporting. It also requires that jurisdictions, as part of their effective implementation of the CRS, put in place anti-abuse rules to prevent any practices intended to circumvent the reporting and due diligence procedures.

July 20

4 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

I agree, a CC is totally different than drawing money directly out of your bank account with a debit card. Technically, it's drawing on an established line of credit, and can be paid back over time. In my opinion, it's a loan, not income. What if I borrowed $100k against my home or my stocks, and remitted, would it be income or a loan? Assessable or not? I would guess not, but what do I know. Lots of unknowns right now.

We had a debate on this in the main tax thread and there are 2 schools of thought, 1 is that Credit Card spends are short term "Loans" & the other is that it's essentially you getting the bank to pay for something on your behalf so it's still remitted income.

The UK (only country I'm familiar with that taxes on a remittance basis) treats credit card usage as remitted income if you use an overseas credit card & use money in an overseas bank account to pay it off.

Credit card issued by an overseas bank or other financial institution

Where an overseas credit card is used in the UK, the cardholder is effectively authorising the credit card company to pay the bill for the goods or service in just the same way as if they had instructed the bank to make a payment directly to the person supplying the goods or services.

The terms of credit card agreements may differ as to the moment of ‘indebtedness’ between the cardholder and the credit card company. However the use of the credit card to pay for goods used or received in the UK, or services provided in the UK by, to or for the benefit of a relevant person will create a ‘relevant debt’.

The use of the individual’s untaxed foreign income or gains to pay the credit card company in respect of the relevant debt will be a taxable remittance (refer to RDRM33040 Relevant debt).

Any part of the payment that relates to non-UK goods or services provided outside the UK will not be chargeable.

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm33520

So if I were to use my Singapore Citibank visa card to buy a new TV in the UK & then pay it off using money from my Singapore bank account, the UK would consider that as remitted income.

Again, practically they have no way of tracking CC spends.

July 20

3 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

This opinion from one tax advisor, is , at minimum, equally as valid as the opinion of the tax partner Stat cited - Luca Bernadetti, managing partner at Mahanakorn partners, highly connected, deals with public sector government and large businesses in Thailand.

I would argue that the tax partner Stat cited is a more authoritative source, but that's my opinion, what makes you so certain your source is right and Stats is wrong?

I would argue that somebody who uses the term "Repatriated" to describe foreign income being brought into Thailand by a non-Thai is a less authoritative source.

verb: repatriate; 3rd person present: repatriates; past tense: repatriated; past participle: repatriated; gerund or present participle: repatriating

send (someone) back to their own country.

"the United Nations hopes to repatriate all the refugees"
return to one's own country.

"the majority came to America as migrant workers who intended to repatriate to Hungary"

send or bring (something, especially money) back to one's own country.

"foreign firms would be permitted to repatriate all profits"

Using an ATM to take money out of your home country bank account (Or sending it over in any other way) is the opposite of Repatriating money... It's Expatriating or remitting.

Common sense says that taking money out of an ATM is bringing money into Thailand but as it's not explicitly stated by TRD & as the UK is the only other country I'm familiar with where people can end up being taxed on a Remittance Basis, here's what UK Gov has to say on the subject

Debit card issued by an overseas bank or other financial institution

Payments for goods or services that are made using a debit card (for example a Visa debit card or one issued under the brand name ‘Cirrus’) issued by an overseas financial institution are treated in exactly the same way as a cash transaction.

This means that when goods or services are purchased in the UK using a debit card a taxable remittance is made to the extent of the amount of any overseas income or gains in the bank account. Likewise any cash withdrawals from shops or ATM machines in the UK are taxable cash remittances.

Payment by cheque drawn on an overseas account or by electronic transfer of any kind are also treated in exactly the same way as cash and are potentially taxable remittances of overseas income and gains.

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm33520

I honestly believe that Luca was speaking from a practical viewpoint & recognises that TRD are unable to see what withdrawals you've made from an ATM (they're not reported on CRS) however technically it is remitted income & so technically could potentially be taxable.

July 20

July 20

Just now, newbee2022 said:

If you don't extend your stay then it's quite obvious that you don't need to pay taxes

It has nothing to do with the type of Visa or Extensions it's simply how many days you spend in Thailand in any 1 Calendar Year..

Enter on a DTV, spend 90 days, have a weekend away in Cambodia, come back for another 90 days - Tax Resident
Enter on a 60 day Visa Exempt, extend it, do a border run & repeat - Tax Resident
Enter on a Non-IMM O, spend 90 days, go travelling for 7 months, come back for 2 months - Not Tax Resident.

#3 is exactly what I'm planning on doing when I take my PCLS (Pension Commencement Lump Sum) as it's Tax Free in the UK & I don't want to be paying >3Million THB in tax to Thailand when I bring it over.

July 20

Just now, newbee2022 said:

Here’s a list of the important Thailand DTV visa facts:

Visa Duration: 5-years

Visa Type: Multiple entry

Length of Stay per Entry: 180 days

Extendable: Yes, once per year

Obtainable From: A Royal Thai Embassy/Consulate or online through Thailand’s official e-visa website

Minimum Age for Primary Visa Holder: 20 years old

Option to Include Family: Yes

Where does it say DTV Holders are exempt from paying tax on their remitted income?

July 20

22 minutes ago, fresher said:

"the 60 days visa-exempt can evidently be extended at local immigration for 30 days"

Not so, I believe.

This is what the Thai Embassy in London is saying:-

"Tourist Visa Exemption Scheme

UK ordinary passport holders can travel to Thailand without visa for no longer than 60 days (maximum 2 times/year).

All UK travel documents (Refugee/Emergency) must apply for the visa before traveling to Thailand.

- Foreigners entering Thailand by any means under the Visa Exemption scheme are required at the port of entry to have proof of planned travel (confirmed air, train, bus, or boat tickets) to leave Thailand within 60 days of the arrival date. Otherwise, a visa must be obtained before entering Thailand."

That's not saying that you can't extend it, it's just saying you should have an outbound flight within the 60 days just like it used to say you that you should have an outbound flight within 30 days before this change.

July 20

3 minutes ago, Baht Simpson said:

How much does that cost in total?

Agent a friend of mine uses charges 12,500 for the 1 year extension.

If you’re on a non-IMM OA & don’t have Health Insurance it’s an extra 2,500.

July 20

15 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

I think you should inform yourself. If not it makes no sense for me to communicate with you🥴

I'm sorry but you're wrong... If you stay >179 days in Thailand in any calendar year on any basis (even Visa Exempt) then you are Tax Resident & if you're Tax Resident then you're (potentially) liable to pay Tax.

The exception to this are LTR holders who have been granted exemption from tax on remitted income under a Royal Decree, if DTV holders have been granted the same exemption then that would be a game changer & I think everybody would just switch to it.

Do I pay Thai taxes on my foreign income as a DTV Visa Thailand holder?

This depends on the duration of your stay. According to the law, anyone who stays in Thailand for over 180 days out of a calendar year will be considered a tax resident by the Thai government. You will be liable to pay Thai taxes on your foreign income if you are a tax resident, even if you hold a Destination Thailand Visa.

Due to updates to Thailand’s Tax Code in 2024, all foreign income of tax residents in Thailand is subject to income tax regardless of when/if it was brought into the country.

However, you may be exempted from this if your country has a Double Tax Agreement with Thailand, which prevents income from being taxed twice.

https://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand-visa/dtv-visa-thailand#:~:text=Do I pay Thai taxes,resident by the Thai government.

[NB Despite its name this site is not an official Thai Embassy site, IIRC it’s owned by Siam Legal].

July 20

On 7/15/2024 at 10:54 AM, degodasilva said:

The reason I'm asking is because I'm not all that familiar with anywhere outside of central Pattaya. For example, I've never been to the Darkside, only visit Jomtien very occasionally, etc

Interesting about the comment above regarding Naklua being German orientated because I got the impression it was more Russian than anything else, but maybe not.

Pre the war in Ukraine, I'd say that the largest group of Expats were from Germany, but since then a lot of Russians moved into the area (Wongamat), though a lot seem to have left over the past 3 months.

I'm the only Brit that I'm aware of living around here.

July 20

2 minutes ago, Digitalbanana said:

What changes? Link?

When the changes to Visa Exempt & the new DTV visa were announced they also mentioned some changes that impact Non-Immigrant visas were coming in September

Medium-term measures: (effective from September – December 2024):

1. Non-Immigrant visa categories will be streamlined from 17 to 7, including Non-B, Non-ED, Non-F, Non-M, Non-O (others), Non-O (L-A), and Non-L-A types.

2. The long-stay retirement visa (Non-Immigrant visa type “O-A”) will be revised, with the required health insurance deposit for medical expenses in Thailand reduced from 3,000,000 THB to 40,000 THB for outpatient care and 400,000 THB for inpatient care.

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e514f1b5-182d-4779-affa-c68e06786076#:~:text=Medium-term measures%3A (effective,%2C and Non-L-A types.

July 20

44 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

if you stay 180 days or more... taxes !.

Stamp in your passport does not change this.

Correct anybody who spends >179 days in Thailand in any one calendar year is Tax Resident & (With the exception of LTR Holders who were exempted by a Royal Decree) are potentially liable for Tax, even if they were using Visa Exempts to stay 180 days they're still Tax Resident & so still potentially liable for Tax.

Haven't seen a Royal Decree exempting DTV holders.

July 19

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I've read the Trilogy mainy times, my favorite read of all times.

More of a Sherlock Holmes / Conan Doyle fan myself but love HHGTTG…

Obviously when I quit my (20 year) IT role I signed off… SLATFATF

July 19

Just now, Mike Lister said:

Can I listen in when you try to explain the HBD option to TRD......I'll pay good money.

Only if your Psychic Mike as I'd be Dead that year... Hotblack Desiato is a humanoid and front man for the band Disaster Area. He was incredibly rich, occasionally buying star systems, and once spent a year dead for tax reasons. 😄

July 19

5 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The liability is actually 82,999.2 on 1 million baht remitted

less the U.K. tax paid (if any) on the £ sent

but only if they are not married (+60,000 allowance +30,000 per parent-in-law

and none of the 1 million was pension (+100,000 allowance)

they are under 65 (over 65 +190,000 allowance)

have no Thai health insurance

have no Thai life insurance

the expense allowance is universal and already calculated in the 83k

so for younger people not getting any pension income with few ties to Thailand 83k tax to pay

I think we're in agreement here, only I'm a lot slopier with my numbers 🙂 [Which is actually <82,800 on 84K pm or 1,008,000) 😛 ) Assuming no other allowances

https://ata-outsourcing.com/calculate-your-personal-income-tax/

Point being that even without additional allowances, 83K pm is not really worth spending 6 months outside of Thailand unless you want to spend time out of Thailand.

Personally I'd lose more than that in 3 months rent I'd be paying on my condo while I'm not there so makes no sense to me, but if you're bringing in a large amount of untaxed income (e.g. the 12.5 Million in my example) then it makes absolute sense to do a Hotblack Desiato

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Posts posted by Mike Teavee

The Common Reporting Standard (CRS)

Credit card issued by an overseas bank or other financial institution

Debit card issued by an overseas bank or other financial institution

Do I pay Thai taxes on my foreign income as a DTV Visa Thailand holder?