OldAjahn

Thanks for the suggestion. That's definitely the safe course. But what's your estimation of the minimum requirements? I'd go with a logical deduction of the requirements if I was confident in it, and take my chances next year at CW. Failing which I wouldn't mind a trip to Singapore, it's been a while, to get a 90 day entry and follow EVENKEEL's course.

Unfortunately, while that should work, it does not always. Depends on the IO. I've been given incorrect instructions a couple of times in the past at CW by the IO officers that one deals with. Once I had to contest the IO's interpretation and the matter was settled by the senior officer who sits in the desk behind. Other times I've had to do the research myself. We're lucky who use CW because they will follow the published rules more than other offices

I'm confused. If someone with an existing non-o extension wants to convert from the 800,000 method to income method, when exactly can the 800,000 be removed? Presnock states, IIUC, that the 800,000 must be maintained for one year, simultaneously with 65,000 monthly deposits, until the next yearly extension. EVENKEEL's situation is slightly different, since he began fresh with a non-O 90-day visa. I just did my yearly extension at CW based on 800,000, but would like next year to change to monthly income. My understanding of the rules is that three months after the date of the stamp, the bank account could be drawn down to 400,000, and the 400,000 could be withdrawn only after the new monthly income-based extension stamp became valid. When I changed from marriage to retirement status at CW, I had to present all the valid documents for a marriage visa on the day of the change, meaning I proved that I had fulfilled the requirements for my granted marriage extension throughout the previous year. Does anybody have an experience changing the method at CW? And does CW just look at the date and amount of FFT transfer, or do they want to see documented proof of origin of the funds?

Last year at CW I renewed non-O retirement based on a US$ account, at BAY, which had only a plastic card. Presented a year statement printed out that day at BAY branch downstairs. The IO was not happy about it, but she took it.

Sorry to report, the details of the 5.1% FCD deposit accounts at Bangkok Bank, SCB, and also BAY, are not listed on their websites. Needs a call. But did learn the main catch; for all three banks, the customer must be in the "exclusive" category, meaning total deposits of either 3 or 5 million baht and an application to that status. I think for the right investor, the details would be highly interesting to learn. For me, not so much.

There's a new option, interest bearing foreign currency deposit (FCD). Bangkok Bank (from last year) and SCB (just announced), I'm not sure of the other banks, offer 5 plus percent on US dollar deposits. Last year I used a US$ FCD deposited at BAY (non-interest) in lieu of my 800,000 baht, and CW accepted it, though the IO was not quite pleased with the extra work to calculate the FX. I haven't read the offering details yet, but it seems to me these new accounts should solve the opportunity cost problem. Only special point is the need to monitor the exchange rate and deposit extra dollars when the baht rises, to avoid being short the 800,000 or the 400,000.

CW used to be 45 days. Anyone know if this is still the current rule at CW?

I subsequently did some research into the question. The Bank of Thailand is the one who issues the regulations for Thai bank accounts. A few years ago, I don't have the date, they changed the ID requirement from a passport, to passport plus some other quasi-official document which includes address. I was quoted: a Thai yellow book (non-tabien ban for foreigners), foreign government ID card, drivers license, a letter of employment from a recognized company, matriculation letter at a school, condo ownership document, and some others I've forgot. The Bank of Thailand thoughtfully provided as final option, in default of the others, an affadavit from the applicant's embassy. A grey area certainly. As is often pointed out on this forum, it is worth while to do you business at a location with many foreign customers. My second BKKB visit was to a branch in the tourist area. Also opened accounts at BAY with even being asked for the comical US embassy letter, because it was the main branch at Ploenchit. Tried again at my local shopping center and was refused.

Sorry, I meant the other embassy-issued certificates of residence that BKKB had previously allowed.

True that the US Embassy can't provide residence certificate. Had a little spat opening a new account at a Bangkok Bank branch in Bangkok last year when I presented the comical document the embassy did provide, certifying that so-and-so, a US citizen, states that he lives at ... . The BKKB officer was quite correct to refuse my application with this document, but when I asked to see some successful residence certificates, there were others just like from the US previously approved. On the advice of my wife not to make enemies, I went to another branch, met with some resistance but showed the evidence I had, and was approved.

An additional caution on prospective bonds. 'Savings bonds', the kind sold at a bank that OldCPU has mentioned, can be sold before maturity, but only at the cost of losing your pro-rated share of the next interest payment. (Different issues have slightly different rules - make sure to ask). Pantabat Rathaban, Treasury bonds, can be sold over-the-counter at any time for the market price. Unpaid interest is accrued daily and added to the sale price of the bond, so you never loose your interest. Download the offering list at CIMB THAI bank, they will buy and sell for you. I still think it's a risky proposition, from a strictly financial point of view. Bonds are nearly as risky as stocks, in a long-term portfolio. But then again, not all decisions in life are purely financial, are they?

Thanks, OldCPU, for the reports of your conversations with BOI. Now we need clarification of their rules. Because if a 5+ year bond is required, how could a mutual fund, so readily saleable, be allowed? If I'm following correctly, an applicant could sell the bond just after receiving the visa, and buy a new one just before the five year review, which doesn't make sense from BOI's point of view. If 5 year + maturity and held past the review date is the true regulation, then check www.thaibma.or.th/EN/Market/YieldCurve/Government.aspx for a list of government bonds of all maturities and spreads. The over-the-counter market is not that liquid for off-the-run issues, I was told, and spreads are wide. So you need to look for recent (on-the-run) issues. To buy five year bonds, there would be an overlap at your 5-year review when you would be holding $500,000 worth of Thai paper, not a safe situation. In the US, the 30-year bond is the usual investor's choice: least volatile, most liquid. You'll see one recent 20 year and a 30-year on the ThaiBMA list. I'm thinking of going that route to the LTR myself, but there's a real question whether that fits with prudent long-term investment goals. Following the old 60/40 rule, you would allocate 250k to bonds and 375k to equities if your total portfolio of investable assets (not including your primary residence) was 625k. But according to the home-currency rule, at least 60% should be in the home currency. So if my home is dollars, Thai bonds could be allocated 40% of 40% = 16%. Then I would expect a total port. of 1.57 million. Sorry, out of my league. If all your assets and all your expenses are in baht, and you expect to live in Thailand till the end, then your home currency is baht. But if even one of those criteria doesn't hold, then it's dollars or pounds or whatever. If you have a well-diversified international portfolio, and want a high yield on your investments, chances are your currency should be dollars. Also, there's a recession coming, and the Thai bond yield curve is not yet showing the extreme inversion (recession-pricing) that the US curve shows, which suggests that Thai bonds bought now will loose money in the short-medium term. If you want to buy a 20 or 30 year bond, make sure your portfolio is set up to handle the inflation and FX risk.

Since I purchased a Thai bond last year, I may be able to clarify some confusion about bonds. The lady on the BOI promotional video posted earlier suggests that an applicant from abroad who intends to buy a condo after receiving the LTR visa can first buy a bond to satisfy the $250,000 requirement if under the $40000 limit, then sell it to fund the condo purchase. In summary, buying bonds is difficult, and the option of buy a mutual fund in Thailand to satisfy the $250,000 requirement may be better, if it is allowed. There are three different items that are often called "bonds" in Thailand, and only one is a bond in the financial industry sense. 1. Pantabat rathaban: this is the true bond, issued by the Ministry of Finance. It is sold at Treasury auctions only to primary dealers, and available on the secondary market (over-the-counter) through brokers (members of the Thai Bond Market Association). A list of current bonds is available at thaibma.or.th/EN/market. 2. Pantabat omsap: this is a savings bond issued by the Finance Ministry to encourage savings by Thais, similar to savings bonds in the US, and sold here through banks. By government regulations it can only be sold to Thai citizens and legal permanent residents, though there is some confusion whether it might also be available to holders of the 'yellow book'. 3. Pantabat Thanakan Haeng Chat: these are treasury bills issued by the Bank of Thailand, of terms one year or less. I have no further information as I have not been successful in buying any, but in the US they carry no interest but are sold at a discount. I was able to purchase a 10-year pantabat rathaban maturing 17 December 2031, number LB31DA, with a 2 % coupon, currently priced at 96.57 yielding 2.42 %. My stock broker at Bualuang Securities (Bangkok Bank) had a friend in the Bangkok Bank bond office, who bought me this over-the-counter as a favor to his friend. He said it's very rare for private individuals to buy bonds in Thailand. Minimum quantity is 1000 shares at 1000 baht a share face value, i.e. a million baht. He called that an 'odd lot'. The spread is not minimal as it is with Treasury bonds in the US. Holding pantabat rathaban presents an issue about custody. Stock brokers in Thailand don't deal in bonds, only ThaiBMA members, so brokers are reluctant to hold the bond paper (scriptless as is actually the case) and collect the dividends. I had mine keep custody, but only by pulling teeth. Otherwise, you must request the Ministry of Finance to issue you a paper certificate, and then deliver this certificate back when it comes time to sell. CIMB Bank has a good bond department, and will sell bonds in units as small as 100000 baht. But they don't open bank accounts for foreigners without work permits, and they will not keep custody for any foreigners, making electronic trading impossible. Pantabat rathaban are not a good option for temporarily parking your condo funds, for the above reasons and because in the current conditions they are too volatile. This October's dollar spike saw Thai bond prices dropping over 15% when calculated in dollars, though they've recovered somewhat now. If you bought a bond to hold for a few months while you shop for a condo, you could easily loose 10 percent of your money. The better option is T-bills, Pantabat Thanakhan Haeng Chat, since these have a short redemption time and a fixed price, but CIMB did not sell these the last I looked, and I never could find a dealer. The option I suggest for those who want to follow the bond route to a condo, is to buy a mutual fund investing in short-term government bills (money market fund), which every bank investment dept. sells. For example, Bualuang (Bangkok Bank) Treasury Fund B-TREASURY. These fluctuate in price as well, and the last I looked may offer negative return, but the loss just right now may be less than 0.1% and should improve soon. Be aware that you will pay a load fee of .2% or more, and you are still subject to FX risk.