Paagai

Probably swerved to avoid a ghost....

Complete fakes!!

I thought it was spelt "freaks" ?

Perhaps some of you need to visit the Mae Sot region where there are countless NGO volunteers working to prevent these kids (and many adults) from having few options other than to migrate into the towns to be exploited as labor of one sort or another.

There are many individuals quietly doing some truly excellent work in the area of refugees, both in Mae Sot and on the northern border with refugees from the Shan State. But, from what I observe many of them seem to be running almost individual crusades to help - and are well deserving of all the support they can get. They are not part of the big foreign government/UN/religious funded outfits that IMO contribute much less, whilst consuming much more and creating a false impression with their "aren't we wonderful" publicity!

If Thais have these levels of connections, nobody is going to lock them up. In fact, if somebody made a complaint against them to a foreign or Thai police agency, I'm quite sure that person will be 'punished' severely.

It would take a very brave, or very stupid, man to be a witness in any pedophile investigation in Thailand imo.

Agree, entirely. This thread is titled the "Darker Side" of Chiang Mai, yet has hardly scratched the surface of that darkness. Some of the realities here are truly shocking, yet beyond reproach.

In reality, the activities of a few sexpat/sex tourist Farangs who get busted here is just the tip of the iceberg compared with what goes on in some local establishments where Farangs aren't even allowed to enter.

BUT, there is a twist in Thai law which says prostitutes must be over 18. There is plenty of precedent that, whilst Thai's never seem to get into trouble, any older Farang having sex with a Thai under 18 is deemed to be engaging in prostitution. Thai logic applies: the Farang is older and has more money therefore it must be prostitution

That's just not true, parents permission and 15, parents permission, judges permission and wedding 13.

Best to get the permissions in writing and witnessed though so you can't get your arm twisted later.

Are you saying that with a judges permission someone can be a prostitute at 13? That would be amazing even for Thailand!

If you don't believe it's illegal for someone under 18 to engage in prostitution may I refer you to:

PREVENTION AND SUPPRESSION OF PROSTITUTION ACT B.E. 2539 (1996)

English translation HERE

If a farang married a Thai under 18 BEFORE ever having sex with them, it might be OK, but I would think such a course of action as highly ill advised, unless they were of similar age. Depending where they are from they could also be breaking the law in their own country.

You would need to define what you consider a pedophile

Someone who has sex with a 18yo? Hardly

Someone who has sex with a 15yo? Debatable

Someone who has sex with a 10yo? Clearly

The NGos would make no distinction between these actions and there lies is a big problem.

In Thailand it is possible to be married to a 13yo and have legal sex, getting married to a 15yo is common and needs only the parents permission to be perfectly legal.

The issue is more complex and depends on who the young person is engaging in sex with. I already stated that post-pubescent Thai youths having sex isn't an issue that appears to cause much alarm among Thai people, despite what I understand are very high rates of teen pregnacy and instances of STIs . It seems to be only morally judgmental westerners who get upset by this.

BUT, there is a twist in Thai law which says prostitutes must be over 18. There is plenty of precedent that, whilst Thai's never seem to get into trouble, any older Farang having sex with a Thai under 18 is deemed to be engaging in prostitution. Thai logic applies: the Farang is older and has more money therefore it must be prostitution

This means the situation regarding both acceptable behaviour and potential accusation/punishment is very different for Farangs than for Thais. Whatever one considers morally right, Farangs need to play by the rules, both of their host country Thailand, and their home country.

Although organisations such as NGO and various charities do sometimes obtain good results, I just see these set ups as jobs for the lads.

The core of the problem lies with the Governments themselves and should not be left in the hands of independent bodies with a do gooder approach.

I doubt that the atrocities of child slave labour, human trafficking and child sexual exploitation have decreased and probably more widespread than ever, therefore showing that the present methods used by these outfits are not cost effective, not working and too expensive for the low percentage of results obtained.

Absolutely!

When it comes to the majority of abuse here, those profiting from it are closely related to and protected by those meant to be stopping it. Seriously dark forces come into play - this is an area where the efficacy of NGOs is almost zero. Without major action, determination and political will at a governmental level to tackle organised crime, nothing will change on the ground.

I hate Thai bashing, but sweeping problems like this under the rug doesn't help this situation either.

I'm not sure where the "Thai bashing" thing comes from. There is nothing on this thread I've seen attacking Thai's, or condemning their behaviour. Only posts pointing out the way things are here and the issues related to that.

This is a difficult subject with no easy answers, it's only by rational discussion and raising awareness that things will eventually change.

Good post Paagai......agree with much, disagree with some.

The mention of 'do gooders' seems to be cast as an overall general put down to people that wish to help.

Nothing wrong with people helping and nothing wrong with people that can and do, by whatever means they use to raise funds to do so, in providing an education for some that would be otherwise lacking, or non existent.

While granted some are not run properly and fall apart and some do perpetuate the problem, this seems to be a problem based on the management of each individual project, rather than an overall across the board situation.

This is a very difficult area and I don't dispute there are many who want to help, and a few who do great work. But, I have my doubts about the motives, abilities and real understanding of the cultural issues by many of those I labelled "do gooders". There are professional NGOs and foreign government agencies working with Thai authorities on an agenda of reducing child sex abuse, some targeting western pedophiles and some on more endemic problems. This is an area of law enforcement that requires expertise; it's not something for well meaning amateurs, or anti pedophile vigilantes to get involved with.

When it comes to "saving children" this has different meanings to different people, but I fear too many NGOs involved in this field believe the child has not been "saved" until they've been converted to that NGO's religous beliefs. To me this is also abuse. If an NGO is involved with caring for the victims of abuse, within their native cultural environment, fine, but it should be with defined boundaries and not with ulterior motives.

Several posters expressed the view this topic is irrelevant as "we" can't make a difference. In fact, it is exactly because of discussions like this on public forums, which do get noticed by Thai authorities, that things will slowly change. We can also make a difference by being vigilant about what our fellow Farangs are up to and reporting suspected abuse in an "appropriate" way. A visit to the local BIB to make a complaint may not only be ineffective but could place you in considerable danger. Much better to report the matter to another authority, e.g. the suspects own embassy or consulate, or the police in their home country. Alternatively, through an effective NGO - one such has a website for reporting suspects here: Stop the child sex trade - Report Offenders

I tried the croissants once, with high expectations as they looked delicious in the glass cabinet. Unfortunately, despite being the only customer, my coffee and croissant took ages to arrive. The espresso was way to watery, and the croissant, disappointing and more like a piece of bread. That was a few months ago; I've not returned.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. In my limited (1 month) experience has opened on time consistently (with the exception of Sunday morning) and the butter-based pastries are superb in the morning when fresh out of the oven. Like all croissants, however, the shelf life is probably about two hours before they begin to become 'bread-like', though I have not yet tested the theory here. I'm guessing they'll still be delicious for an early lunch, but after that...

Prompted by this thread I returned. The croissant was much better now so would occur with other's praise Unfortunately, the coffee still needs work

The really annoying part was, the group occupying half the restaurant for a selfishly LOUD discussion about the bible. They didn't even appear to be eating or drinking anything Hardly conducive to enjoying a quiet, relaxing early morning coffee

Before you can discuss or condemn what goes on, you have to first understand the cultural context in Thailand, and view the issue from a Thai rather than western standpoint. From what I see, young people having sex post puberty is not a big cultural taboo or seen as a problem by a lot of Thais, be it having sex with their peers or with older Thais. The age of consent is generally regarded as 15 and my Thai friends tell me many amusing stories of what they got up to as young teenagers, with no shame, embarrassment or remorse.

You also have to understand the local sex industry (Thai - Thai) is a major economic driver in Thailand (and many places elsewhere in Asia) provided it is discreet, it is again not a major Taboo. In and around Chiang Mai there are many brothels of one type or another where young people provide sexual services to Thai customers. Not all are forced into it, some may have been trafficked from outside the country (Burma, Laos, China), some may have been sold by their parents, or kidnapped, but equally some are just school kids making some extra cash (often just to pay for drugs). This is big business and is run by the usual mafias where the game keepers are also the poachers, this isn't going to change any time soon. Anyone who thinks reporting activities to the local BIB will produce results doesn't understand the situation

Some rural Thais (especially hill tribe) also see their kids as their providers; sending them to actively get involved in the sex industry and send money home, or worse still simply selling them like the rice crop.

The above may come as a shock, and maybe morally abhorrent and incomprehensible to many westerners, but, TIT and just the way things are.

The problem comes when you insert western people and thinking into the above. Firstly, you have western pedophiles coming here to get, what is not available at home, and secondly, the "do gooders" who seek to impose western values on the situation. Some of which is good, some ill advised. Some "do gooders" then become part of the problem, e.g. setting up schools etc, where child abuse becomes part of the curriculum.

In my opinion, the only way things will change is by a gradual process of educating the people, and removing the root causes which are poverty and corruption. Not something that will happen quickly in Thailand. Those who want to have some real long term effect would be better engaged in lobbying the Thai governmental bodies and Thai people for change than some forms of direct action we see.

Hi

Did you mean to post this in the Chiang Mai forum?

David

Why not? The article was clearly filmed in Chiang Mai, and about things happening here.

Here's another one about Hill Tribe kids being trafficked, including fottage from sleazier parts of the night bazaar....

If you know of people doing wrong against children - Farang or Asian - here's any easy way to Report it

The following video (from the same website) is a very powerful statement. It's an animation of a kids journey into the sex trade, produced from drawings made by rescued kids.

There are several shops on Manee Nopparat (north side of moat) between Pratu Chang Puek and Sriphum corner that sell musical instruments, PA systems etc, both new and used. A lot of the stuff is very cheap.

Na Na used to be a favorite of mine, and many Farangs living in Santitham, when it was under the old owners. Great inexpensive Thai food plus a few farang dishes, and with a more upmarket feel than the vendor cart places around there. However, they got unreliable on the opening times - agreeing to meet people somewhere only to find it's shut, is not a regularly repeatable scenario, even if it may be familiar in Thailand .

I tried the croissants once, with high expectations as they looked delicious in the glass cabinet. Unfortunately, despite being the only customer, my coffee and croissant took ages to arrive. The espresso was way to watery, and the croissant, disappointing and more like a piece of bread. That was a few months ago; I've not returned.

A good place to go have coffee and a croissant or toasted sandwich type fare in that part of town is sadly lacking. Bakerista has great coffee, and good cakes, but they're all very cream heavy. Miss the type of snack pastries you'd find on the bar in a Cafe in France or Italy.

Right in the back of Kad Suan Kaew, at the basement level where the handicraft stores are, there are (or at least were - I haven't been through there for some time) several artists working. I don't know how their prices compare with Night Bazaar.

I rented a house where the previous occupant had recently died. One night we're having this big party with loads of Thai guys; one is shouting on his cell phone at his BF who happened to have the same name as the deceased. When I mentioned it was unwise to shout that name so loudly............every body left. Believe me, Thais take it very seriously

In the last 27 posts the closest we've got to the subject of musicians is Wizard of Oz

Apart from Nicky at Guitar Man are there any Farang musicians still legally playing in Chiang Mai?

Wow, this threads still going Must be a slow day.... Can almost hear the mods snoring

Two anonymous people having an argument about who knows the highest ranking policemen is just so wonderful

Oh, well

There's a place on Chang Puek Soi 4 which seems to upholster everything from car seats to large sofas and benches for bars/restaurants. Have had a couple of things rebuilt there before. Coming north from Chang Puek Gate, Soi 4 is on the left at the traffic lights by the Bus station/white elphants. Shop on the right about 50M down the soi.

So you prefer the company of poor Thai men over being with a Thai woman.

What ever floats your boat.

Absolutely! Actually, I prefer rich Thai men, but whilst waiting for Mr Right to come along a poor one will float my boat just fine

I've even had some great evenings out at Guitar Man with a bunch of very poor Tai Yai guys, listening to some great music by people of a variety of different of colours

So why don't we all play nicely and cut the racist and homophobic quips and stick to the topic?

I haven't seen one post that is "anti-Thai".

:cheesy:

Really:

He/she lives like a poor, low-class Thai. And seems to be proud of it.

I'd say the insinuation that Thai's are low class if they are poor is not going to win you too many friends down at Somchai's Somtam shack

Anyway this thread seems to have fast gone down hill and I think the point that was being made, and which has been lost was that there are plenty of excellent Thai music venues in town, the music scene certainly won't die here if Farangs aren't playing. That's not to say some farangs can't make an excellent contribution provided they do it within "the system".

Of course, the people also likely to be living like a "poor Thai" (Low-class insult omitted) are those Farangs living here and working illegally, playing music for a couple of hundred Baht a night. Whether you think it's right or wrong, such people are likely not more than barely subsisting here, and not making a big financial contribution to Thailand. I believe it's been made very clear those are the people the Thai government don't want here, and that's not something Farangs have any say in.

Thank god we are not talking about Thai snooker halls, the thought of all the tattooed Thai guys hanging in those places would probably make the people calling me 'racist' poop in their pants. But you really don't need to be scared of Thais, most are very nice.

Now we're talking :licklips:

I can think of some great Thai live music venues that are like that too, including one I mentioned earlier

Another bar where the owner plays live music (or used to anyway) was visited out of hours by the police.

He was told if he continued playing music he would be raided.

There was no attempt at extortion, they didn't want to catch him being naughty, he was just told to STOP.

Depends on the circumstances, but I have heard exactly that scenario elsewhere where the music was disturbing the peace of someone influential, or competition to someone else's business. There are some situations that can't be resolved with money.

Of course, if you are a Farang who's peace is being disturbed complaing won't get the same result

I discovered a new bar last Friday

Live Thai band playing Thai rock

First 3 large Changs for 100bht (140bht for 3 after that)

3 Coyote dancers on stage with the band (shorts and crop tops)

15 serving girls aged 20+ all wearing high heels and short shorts (men don't pour drinks in Thai bars)

I really don't understand why anyone would want to go to a 'farang bar' pay for overpriced beer and listen to white men playing music badly.

The music scene in CM rocks, and it doesn't involve white amateurs.

Spot on Post

Another good new place is Chaophraya bar in Santitham Plaza, they have a resident Ska/Reggae band playing every night Called "Super Running Ska" They have several excellent musicians, its fun and cheap