rockyysdt

There is one way to find out. Actual experience! All you need do is practice until you achieve Awakening. Then you will know, in this lifetime!

Firstly, it is good to reconnect Vincent. Assuming many assumptions, your assessment has valid points. This is the crossroad of "what is" & "what is not". The only thing I can add is, "beware of belief". Belief is just that, much better to be open to possibility. PS: I am all for whole rice, but I find it is very heavy on my gut. Bad results in terms of coping with elimination. Any tips? Also, great to hear from you. Assuming many assumptions hold, ou are a souls

The focus is definitely the consciousness part of us when it comes to Buddhism. Yes, matter can be converted to energy & energy to matter, but where does consciousness fit into this? Is it independent or dependent on mind/body? Buddhism offered a glimmer of something beyond expiration. Nibbana Samsara Deathless Re Birth Is Buddhism about living your life at its best potential psychologically & physically, or is it about achieving unification to an infinite Consciousness? Or are we kidding ourselves?

If we analyse consciousness we find, awareness in wakeful state, awareness in meditative state, & awareness in dream state. This awareness disappears in the unconscious state. This could be thought of as a bit worrying. It suggests, that awareness does not continue. The individual components of a human are vast complex, & minute. To separate these parts, through death, does not appear to bode well for that which is born. How can the sum of decomposed matter , although a mass of building blocks waiting to be fashioned, be considered anything resembling the perished organism to which it belonged? Isn't most of us a program of memory fashioned by conditioning/environment & inherited dna?

Thanks Bruce. I'll be dusting off my chair, mat & cushion towards reigniting my practice. My inquiries in the Buddhist forum don't impact on whether I will practice or not, but rather to better understand the teachings.

But the teaching is asking for a lot of investment in time and effort, but cannot definitively articulate the ultimate goal. Buddhism advocates renunciation of most pleasures and other attachments in life in order to vanquish the ego (impermanence). The reward being the quenching of craving (Nibbana), but who will be rewarded? If you Awaken 5 years before you die, you may experience equanimity before you expire but isn't that it? And what of cessation of rebirth. Some say "rebirth but not you", as you are impermanent. Others say "your rebirth", but if you're impermanent then what of you is reborn? Maybe the deathless! Quote: Ajahn Maha Boowa: So I turned my attention to investigating my own past births. My goodness! If the corpses of this one individual were scattered across the length and breadth of Thailand, there would not be an empty space left. Just this one individual! Imagine the amount of time it took to be born and to die that many times! It would be impossible to count all the births and deaths. There were far, far too many to even try. My thoughts also spread to all the in- numerable corpses of each person in the world. Each and every citta of each and every living being has exactly the same history of repeated births and deaths. Everyone is equal in this respect. Stretching back indefinitely, everyone’s past is crowded with countless corpses. It was an unbearable sight. If Dhamma had not fi- nally passed judgment, then I would have carried on indefinitely in this manner. According to the respected Arahat Ajahn Maha Boowa, it was he who was being reborn. Not only that, remarkably he was being reborn in Thailand. I know he indicated that there was much ignorance, and suffering involved, but there was life. The alternative is that as he became Awakened this was his last life as craving was quenched. That means he either annihilated himself, or, there is continuance (maybe an aspect of his Citta) in a state of Nibbana, and perhaps in another realm. Otherwise, why would you end rebirth?

Thanks Bruce. I value your input. You mentioned why I hadn't chosen another lifestyle/s. I indirectly have been (that's not to say Buddhism isn't included). This includes cobbling together lifestyles & practices which will assist in having a fruitful life. Knowledge and its availability is exponentially growing. Taking care of my health. Working towards simple simple things such as avoiding intoxicants, eliminating ultra processed foods including so called vegetable oils & sugar, & other harmful things. Adopting healthy lifestyle, gym/weights, aerobic activity, and body/mind activities such as yoga and the like. Being mindful of others not as well off and engage in charitable works. Seeking out new knowledge on relevant endeavors to add to ones list of practices. Awareness of my own responses when engaging with others to analyse their appropriateness. I didn't think my scenario was extreme. More an end result of successful application of the 4 noble truths and the eightfold path, a cornerstone of the Buddhas teachings. Magga: The truth of the path to the cessation of suffering There cannot be a cessation of suffering whilst re birth continues. Isn't the ultimate goal to eliminate Duhkha by quenching the thirst for craving? Anything short of Awakening can only ever lead to temporarily reducing craving. And, this leads to another crossroad. Is it a part of us (deathless part) which is destined to countless rounds of re birth in Samsara or is the re birth a new entity brought about by our unquenched craving? Is Nibbana a state in which a part of us ((deathless part)) returns, if not what ever exists in Nibbana? These questions also revolve around, and are suggestive of, something beyond the impermanent/conditioned, and dare I say, religion, or something beyond expiration. Is it correct to say, the only difference between a collection of other practices & lifestyles & Buddhism, is that Buddhism will ultimately offer cessation of re birth of another entity, not us, & the experience of equanimity? Based on many adherents, impermanence suggests, that for each of us there is nothing beyond death.

If everyone successfully applies the Buddhas teaching, then how can this not be the outcome? Quote: A monk may for practice for decades in their quest for Awakening, and end up never reaching it, but he lived a lifestyle that he chose. To see the value in that I think it best to compare it with the lifestyle he would have lived if he'd stayed a layperson, this of course varies from person to person. There must be many lifestyles which will result in much pain, suffering & early demise. That's not to say that there aren't as many lifestyles, other than Buddhism, which might be very positive, satisfying and rewarding. Quote: Buddhist monastic renunciation is primarily about simplifying ones life so that you are not pulled in different directions and distracted from your practice. The need for monastic life, including renunciation, points to the need to commit a large portion of ones life to dedicated practice in order to successfully become Awakened. A life of denial and sacrifice in order to extinguish re birth (not reincarnation) of life, and to experience Equanimity. We have already agreed that “that which is born must die” & “impermanence”. If that which is Reborn is not us/me/you, then why would us/me/you practice a life filled with renunciation & denial to stop a Rebirth? And, is experiencing equanimity after maybe 40-50 years practice, if you are lucky, worth the trade off? Aren't there many lifestyles which can maximise balanced pleasure, love, enjoyment, & satisfaction in life whilst limiting pain and suffering without a life of renunciation and denial?

Hi Bruce. I haven't given up on the Buddhist teachings and path. Just trying to make sense of it. Wouldn't one say, the greater number of pleasures denied or restricted will enhance ones chances of successfully reaching the Buddhist goal of Awakening? Monks have an extensive list of precepts in comparison to laypeople, and, as a result, deny themselves of much pleasure. Isn't an alternative to cultivate common sense, moderation, healthy lifestyle including aerobic exercise, stretching, weights & yoga, healthy diet, improving ones knowledge, and learning to be and behave at your very best? You mentioned suffering in pursuit of a woman for sexual pleasure. Sexual abstinence regardless of the method being abstained, is known to be unhealthy. Coming back to my earlier points. If everyone is successful in extinguishing craving, then what good is it to end up with no one re born? A Monk may practice in a state of denial, for decades in their quest for Awakening, and end up never reaching it. Was their life of denial worth it? And what about the deathless state? That which was never born, can never die. If our lives are not real, and therefore we were never born, then what is deathless?

It all seems rather illogical. Not in this order. The gold standard for practitioners or adherents is a lifelong practice of denying oneself of pleasures. Successful practice of this is to extinguish re birth (not reincarnation) of life. If everyone was successful, collectively, why would we want to extinguish all life? And, given that we are not reincarnated, why would we want to deny ourselves of pleasure in order to achieve it before we die?

Thanks Bruce. I'm thinking "one can logically accept that attachment & craving to anything impermanent will lead to suffering, without the need to practice for ones lifetime." Then what occurs when one becomes enlightened or awakened? Wasn't this an entree into "that which was never born"? Or did the Buddha craft his words to make his teaching appear to include something beyond. An ambiguity in order to protect himself from offending religious adherents of the time. And why would one embark on years of dedicated practice and asceticism in order to have actual experience of the folly of attachment & craving? If ones attachments & craving revolve around wholesome pursuits, what is wrong with craving? Aren't these attributes, practiced with an element of control and moderation, valuable as they provide the drive towards pursuits, wholesome or not? If what you're saying is correct, then why deny oneself of the pleasures which life can offer with moderation and care for others? We are impermanent with a limited number of years of existence we were fortunate to find ourselves with. What is the reward of denying oneself of these in the pursuit of actual experience of impermanence? In terms of ending suffering, if one is impermanent doesn't death end suffering? If not, that which we are (our impermanent selves), which is all that we know cannot suffer if expired.

Thanks Bruce. Can you expound a little? Are you saying "some deify pure unconditioned awareness but that this state is also simply part of the aggregates and therefore impermanent?" If so, what is there beyond, and/or was beyond never part of the teaching?

In the teachings of the Buddha, there are a number of high level elements. If I am incorrect in these, please correct me. That which was never born can never die (deathless). As our ego is an accumulation of conditioning over our life/lives, it is impermanent. Death is followed by endless cycles of re birth into future lives, driven by attachment to craving. The cycle of re birth continues, until one is awakened as a result of practice resulting in the quenching of craving. Is the process of deep meditation (awareness without thought) the path to becoming aware of the unconditioned or deathless state (this state already exists, but we are unaware of it)? If so, is this that which is common to the re born states? Is this that which "awakens"? If there is nothing beyond the cessation of re birth, isn't this annihilation, as at least re birth gives you future cycles of life, all be it, good ones as well as bad ones? Or, if pure unconditioned awareness is that which continues, why are we unaware of it during the unconscious state?

Thanks Sheryl. It might be geo blocked (I'm attempting access from out of the country). Is it possible for you to pass on the contact details of the recommended government hospital in Nonthaburi. I would be greatful.

Thanks Sheryl. I cannot thank you enough for access to your experience and advice. I'll work towards exploring your lead. As of tonight my attempt to access the website fails. It could be that their website is down. I'll keep trying.