drtreelove

Vegetables are grown successfully all over Thailand.  But as with the nurturing of all living things, vegetables, trees, shrubs, grass, soil, as well as children and pets, the first attempts will be a learning experience. Don't give up, you learn as you go. 

Sowing seeds directly into the ground may not be the best idea, unless you know how to prepare the soil. Poor soil conditions are prevalent, seeds and seedlings need special nutritional support to germinate and get established. It's hard to find vegetable 'starts' (young plants) in Thailand, but not impossible. I recommend that you start seeds in small pots or flats, and while they are germinating and putting out new leaf surface and roots, you can start preparing the soil or obtaining some quality potting soil for containers. https://maruchubussan.co.th/

Start with some easy to grow veggies, like pole beans (yard-long beans, tua pak yao), Chinese kale (pak ka nah). 

Water management is all-important. 

YouTube is loaded with channels. Good luck sorting it all out. SelfSuffientMe that was mentioned is a good one. 

This book has some good guidelines on the comprehensive (multi-faceted) program it takes to be a successful grower: https://www.amazon.com/How-Grow-More-Vegetables-Ninth/dp/0399579184

Is anyone in Thailand using the new Direct Express debit card to receive SS benefits?  I know that with an ATM withdrawal there is a 3% fee on top of the bank charges, but what about a bank teller cash withdrawal with the Direct Express MasterCard? Do we have to give up the same 3%? 

22 hours ago, shdmn said:

Cold pressed coconut oil is the healthiest inexpensive oil for cooking in Thailand, but it's smoke point is a bit low at 175C.  Virgin avocado oil is a bit higher so that would be better but it's expensive.  Non virgin olive oil or non virgin avocado oil are probably the best inexpensive for cooking but they are not that healthy for you. Better than seed and vegetable oils though.  Those are supposedly very unhealthy because of high levels of Omega 6. 

 

Clarified butter, also called ghee, is probably the best most healthy cooking oil with a relatively high smoke point.  No idea how easy or inexpensive that is to find in Thailand.  

No need to find it, it's easy to make your own ghee from butter. 

https://www.thepioneerwoman.com/food-cooking/recipes/a91575/how-to-make-ghee/

On 7/14/2024 at 8:18 AM, JeffersLos said:

Thanks, I will consider bananas. 

 

Are there any other fruit trees that should be successful in such an environment? 

With the description of the site and expectations "The bigger the trees the better" - lime, papaya, and other fruit trees may not get tall enough, soon enough to gather the sunlight needed for photosynthesis, and in my opinion they are more challenging for an inexperienced grower to manage tree health and disease resistance. These are severely compromised growing condtions. Don't expect it to be easy to maintain fruit tree health and longevity. 

Consider bananas. That is what I have used in a similar situation. It was cheap and easy and the results of this planting have been very satisfying. I was gifted with dwarf nam wah banana offshoots from a friend's organic farm. (kluai nam wa (กล้วยน้ำว้า).  

Any woody tree selection will take longer to grow and acheive the height to gather afternoon sunlight for photosynthesis. And trees in containers is a 'short term' plan, they cannot grow to maturity in a healthy way, in such a limited soil volume. Bananas in an improved soil (compost and COF/complete organic fertilizer), in the ground preferably, will grow fast and start to produce bananas in a year. 

4 hours ago, djayz said:

Your comment about the nematodes and molds reminded me of something I forgot to mention in my previous post. I rotate my tomato plats every year (by that I mean I plant them in a different grow bed every year). This helps to prevent a buildup of diseases in the soil. 

Crop rotations can be an important consideration in a comprehensive Integrated Pest Management program.  But I plant tomatoes in the same beds. I know that most soil dwelling nematodes, bacteria and fungi, protozoa and microarthropods are beneficial, so I don't want to kill off the good guys by wiping out all the soil biology with baking, harsh chemistry, or other forms of sterilization.  I know from my experience in my own gardens over the years and that of hundreds of customers, that "preventing a buildup of diseases in the soil" comes best with soil fertility and good water management, creating good growing conditions for beneficial soil biology to thrive and suppress the pathogens and help the plants build natural resistance pests and diseases. 

The pink flowering vine that you like may be 'coral vine' Antigonon leptopus. I don't know the Thai name. It's incredibly beautiful, but very fast growing and voluminous, often considered "invasive"; be sure that you have enough space to accomodate the vigorous growth habit, and that you have the ability to manage continuous training-pruning.  

Seeding and planting can begin as the weather heats up in mid-February, as long as you have water/irrigation, because that's the beginning of the dry-hot season. Without irrigation, wait until the rainy season starts in May. 

In my opinion, ditch the herbicides and do a manual weed removal for the least-toxic and best long term results.  If you want to plant grass and flower beds, the best method would be a dedicated process of removing the existing weedy growth by digging or rototilling, Rake it smooth and deep water or wait for heavy rains to saturate the soil. Weed seeds will germinate and grow back. Dig or rototill them again before they go to seed. Repeat one more time for best measure.  Then prepare the soil to a 6" depth by incorporating compost and a complete organic fertiliizer.  Overlay with new sod. Then the ongoing weed management will be limited to spot pulling of new weeds and cultivation of your new turf grass, which will eventurally dominate and squeeze out most of the weeds. Mulch the flower beds for some degree of weed suppression, but keep up with weekly weed pulling or digging. It can be enjoyable work and satisfying results if you keep up with it, and if you don't mind getting a little sweaty, tired and dirty. 

Order "Takumi Organic Super Soil" from Maruchu Busan. They have 25 kg sacks.  https://maruchubussan.co.th/

Mix with a high quality vermicompost from Best Garden State or other source. 

I also use  Maruchu Fish Amino Fertilizer. 

Kind of pricey stuff, but worth it.  

On 6/19/2024 at 9:53 PM, IvorBiggun2 said:

Its a 'Lime Caterpillar'. You can spray your citrus with Bacillus thuringiensis. It's a commercially available biological control for caterpillars on citrus.

It's a good suggestion, but some other information is important for effective contol. 

There are different strains of B.t., not all are effective for butterfly larvae. 

"Common types of Bt strains: Bt israelensis controls immature mosquitos, flies, and gnats. Bt aizawai and Bt kurstaki controls caterpillars of moths and butterflies." National Pesticide information center.

Also, from my experience it is most effective with 1st and 2nd instars, maybe 3rd, not 4th and 5th stages of caterpillar growth. Later instars are bigger and tougher and not as easily affected.

Also, Bt is not a contact spray, it has to be ingested by caterpillars actively feeding on the foliage to which the Bt has been applied, preferrably with a spreader-sticker adjuvant to keep it in place. A lite spreader-sticker may not be enough during the rainy season, a heavier sticker-extender may be needed. The insect life-cycle timing considerations are important. If you are too late, its a waste. 

I would add pyrethrins/pyrethrum as a highly effective knockdown spray (organic program compatible, biodegrades in 12 to 24 hours). 

For small plants, djayz suggestion of mechanical control, hand picking, is good, and no cost or spraying. Wood vinegar for me would be a last resort, not a regular application. It's very harsh and I'm concerned about preserving the foliar microbiome and beneficials. 

I think you have it backwards. The reason for sad looking trees and the reason that the insect pests are attracted to the trees is inadequate plant nutrition, and often poor growing conditions and water managment. Physiological weakening from drought stress is an invitation to many plant pests.

Permacuture, manure, compost and mulch do not necessarily cover all the bases in builiding soil health, plant nutrition and natural resistance to pests. In fact manure, too much manure, especially non-aged/non-composted manure can have detrimental effects on the beneficial soil biology and nutrient cycling. 

I haven't seen that specific pest damage, but the hole pattern looks like weevil damage. More important than what exact pest is causing it, is why is it there? 

Plant pests and diseases are many, and there are new ones that are hard to keep up with. If its not one thing it will be another, as long as the  trees are physiologically weak and have not developed natural resistance. 

The foliage shown in the photos is chlorotic (pale, yellowed), most likely from nutrient deficiencies and/or excessive pruning with heading cuts. Use thinning cuts/drop-crotching and don't over-prune, which creates excessive vegetative growth that is attractive to pests. High NPK chemical fertilizer also creates biochemistry that is a pest magnet. 

Create good growing condtions, build soil organic matter content and a healthy soil microbiome, soil surface shading, mulching, cover cropping, and attend to soil fertility and water management as the first line of defense. Building the tree's natural resistance to pests and disease, protecting and enhancing the soil and foliar biome and beneficials should always be the focus for optimum tree heath care.  Look to regenerative agriculture and soil food web principles. Use biologicals and not harsh chemicals. 

31 minutes ago, drtreelove said:

All need sun, but maybe can tolerate some filtered or afternoon partial shade. 

 

As for container or 'in the ground' plantings, it is not an easy question to answer and needs some consideration of the site and soil conditions and your ability to do the work needed, manage soil fertility and watering. In the ground is best for long term growth, as there is more possibility for expansive root growth in a larger volume of soil, but soil improvements, organic matter amendments, biofertilization and a watering plan are best for planting and establishment. Is that something that the site is suitable for and that your interest and experience will support? 

 

Container plants are okay for a shorter time frame, and will be less work to get started, but require more management, especially for watering, since a smaller soil volume and elevated exposure to heat will dry out the soil and the beneficial biology, and desicate roots more rapidly. The soil and nutrient availability in container plants will be harder to manage; mulching and cover cropping can't really be used effectively to shade the soil surface, build soil aggregate structure, nutrient cycling and moisture retention. More frequent fertilization will be needed. Ideally, potted plants will need upgrading every two years or so.  ("Upgrading" = larger pot and additional soil as the plants grow, the root system expands, and nutrient demands increase.) 

I should have mentioned that there is an advantage to in-the-ground planting and the real mineral soil with more potential for a higher CEC, cation excange capacity (nutrient holding capacity).  Container plants, unless the potting soil is intelligently engineered, almost always come with soil-less substrate that has low CEC and water holding capacity. Water runs right through it, as do nutrients. Which makes for more demanding management with irrigation and fertilization. But in-the-ground often meets depleted soil, like construction site clayey fill dirt that requires hard labor to dig a planting hole, and need for imported soil organic matter, like compost.

On 5/30/2024 at 11:35 PM, YorkshireTyke said:

Is LS24 the only gardener on the foum?

This is primarily a dogs, cats and snakes forum. Notice that after all these years, there are no 'pinned' discussions on plants. The Farming forum has more expeneienced growers contributing. 

All need sun, but maybe can tolerate some filtered or afternoon partial shade. 

As for container or 'in the ground' plantings, it is not an easy question to answer and needs some consideration of the site and soil conditions and your ability to do the work needed, manage soil fertility and watering. In the ground is best for long term growth, as there is more possibility for expansive root growth in a larger volume of soil, but soil improvements, organic matter amendments, biofertilization and a watering plan are best for planting and establishment. Is that something that the site is suitable for and that your interest and experience will support? 

Container plants are okay for a shorter time frame, and will be less work to get started, but require more management, especially for watering, since a smaller soil volume and elevated exposure to heat will dry out the soil and the beneficial biology, and desicate roots more rapidly. The soil and nutrient availability in container plants will be harder to manage; mulching and cover cropping can't really be used effectively to shade the soil surface, build soil aggregate structure, nutrient cycling and moisture retention. More frequent fertilization will be needed. Ideally, potted plants will need upgrading every two years or so.  ("Upgrading" = larger pot and additional soil as the plants grow, the root system expands, and nutrient demands increase.) 

Kratom may not grow as well in northern Thailand as it does at our daughter's farm in Chumphon, where it thrives even in partial shade of larger trees.

Give it the best growing conditions, soil and water management. Soil heath building with bio-fertilizer, bio-stimulants, mulching and deep watering once or twice a week during the dry season. 

I don't grow kratom, but for other tree and landscape plantings and veggie garden, I use biological fertilizer,

- a bat-guano/cow-manure product available at an ag shop across the road from MaeJo University.

- Takumi Fish Fertilizer, also available in Mae Jo, at the Maruchu Bussan store.

I also use a biostimulant, liquid worm castings effluent, from MJU cannabis farm vermicompost store. 

https://www.fertileearthlandcare.com/watering-trees/

On 5/27/2024 at 10:06 PM, carlyai said:

Also try on the Pattaya Forum.

There's a big company (Nong Nuk Gardens) on the outskirts of Pattaya that may be able to help you.

Nong Nooch also has a division in Chiang Mai, with a big nursery - plant materials yard in Tambon Nong Hoi near MaeJo town.

And then there is Kamtieng Plant Market in Chiang Mai. And the Chiang Mai/Chiang Rai forum. There has been a discussion about other plant markets outside of Chiang Mai .

Pattaya forum? known for a different kind of bush represented there. 

On 4/10/2024 at 9:12 PM, mahjongguy said:

Over-watering is harmful to many young trees, including pomelo. The roots need time to dry a little so they don't rot. Monty would say "they don't like wet feet", so water less often. Depending on the weather, this might be once a week. Cover the ground around the base with a good mulch to slow evaporation. 

 

Chicken manure seems a good choice as long as it is mixed into quality planting soil at something like 5 parts dirt to 1 part chicken sh*t.

 

This particular tree is badly stressed. It may or may not be too late.

Good advise!   Also, from the photo it appears that it was planted too deep, with the root crown buried and susceptible to crown rot from the over watering. 

 "...the trees in question haven't been fertilized or watered (the water table is quite high where we are, so I assume that they are getting adequate water)..."

How does that saying go? "To assume makes an ass out of you and me".  A high water table does not insure that trees are getting what they need, or are not getting too much. Soil surface watering is important in most cases because that's where the bulk of the absobing roots are, in the top few inches of the soil profile, and just as important is, that is where the beneficial soil biology is active (or should be active) in facilitating nutrient cycling and other important metabolic functions.

And sometimes the opposite is in effect, that a high water table is too much and predisposes root rot in trees that are highly susceptible, like durian and avocado. 

Also, regarding soil fertility, durian trees have a high foliage density and large structural wood formation, and large fruits, so there is naturally a need for high nutrient availability, and in the depleted soils of Issan, that usually means that well managed amendments are needed until soil biology can be restored. Calcium supplementation will be one of the most important, and in the CEC-based BCSR soil testing and cation balancing system, for large fruit formation, Potassium is upped to 5%, as well as other essential mineral considerations. SOM (soil organic matter) content, mulching or cover cropping, are also important management factors to consider. 

You are working with a highly unnatural planting, so you should not assume that natural forest conditions prevail, and that intelligent soil and water management is not vital. 

Also, trees planted from seed are not necessarily true to the parent variety that has been bred for adaptibility to the site specific conditions and desireable characteristics, so anything is possible. 

Adequate Calcium is also an important element to consider, in balance with other cations. 

Do a pH or "fizz-test" .  If your soil is alkaline then don't use lime. gypsum (calcium sulfate) is okay, but the problem is that what is sold as gypsum in Thailand is usually Calcium oxide, quicklime.  There are other sources of Ca. 

August 29, 2014 by Permakulturnik

The importance of Calcium for health and proper functioning of the plant

Calcium is one of the elements, which are essential for plants. They need it in very large quantities – in Good soil, giving the highest value of fruits and vegetables, calcium is more than all the other necessary elements combined plants. It performs many functions in the plant (Calcium functions):

§  Regulates the absorption of other minerals by plants

§  It stimulates the correct elongation of plant cells

§  Strengthens the structure of the cell wall, which are responsible for the proper form and shape of plants

§  Participates in the process of enzymatic and hormonal

§  It helps to protect plants from heat stress

§  Protects the plant by diseases – many fungi and bacteria secretes enzymes, that attack the cell walls of plants. Strong and rich in calcium, cell walls are better able to resist the invasion of pathogens

§  Affects the quality of the fruit

§  It is needed for the proper functioning of stomata

Can be briefly summarized as: “without lime there is nothing”!

LIME - More Than an Agent to Change Soil pH.pdf

Appropriate water management is a major factor.

Adequate and balanced mineral nutrients can be a factor. Large fruits require a lot of Potassium (among other nutrients) for the growth and ripening process. When I write a soil-test-based Rx for amendments with the cation balancing method, for K-hungry crops especially durian, papaya, bananas, citrus, I bump up the potash amendment to 5% of the BCSR instead of the normal 4%. (See the book The Ideal Soil by Michael Astera, or The Intelligent Gardener, Steve Solomon).  One of the best organic program compatible K sources is naturally mined Potassium sulfate 0-0-50, or Langbeinite (Sul-Po-Mag) 0-0-22.  Avoid Potassium chloride 0-0-60, as it is extremely harsh and detrimental for the beneficial soil biology.

As far as how much to apply, I wouldn't go out and dump a lot of K2SO4 on your soil, it should be a measured amount in relation to other nutrients. Without a soil analysis, the Langbeinite would be the safest.  Best Garden State in Nakhon Pathom and on FB may carry it. And they do soil testing with a much better method than local labs and universities in my opinion. 

https://downtoearthfertilizer.com/products/single-ingredients/langbeinite-0-0-22/

Langbeinite

Trees & Shrubs:
Spread ½ -1 lb per 1″ of trunk diameter around the base outwards to the drip line, mix into soil surface and water in well. 

Potassium sulfate

Without Soil Analysis (recommended rates for general use):
For foliar and spray applications, mix ½ – 1 tsp per gallon of water. Apply with even coverage directly to plant leaves. For soil drench applications, mix 1-2 Tbsp per gallon of water.

Over the years we have had many discussions on this forum regarding soil analysis.  I belive that there is a lot of incomplete and mis-information on the subject. Here is my attempt (with the help of AI - Chat GPT) to explain some of the different approaches and methods of soil testing, chemical farming oriented SLAN, organic farming BCSR and the latest soil biology oriented regen ag methods and materials. 

Regenerative Agriculture, as promoted by Kiss the Ground advocates, The Soil Food Web School and Advancing Eco Agriculture, as well as others, represents a modern movement away from pure chemical soil analysis toward a primary consideration of the soil biology and related processes, and how the microbiome is affected positively or negatively by management of growing methods and materials.

Don’t miss this key perspective on soil food web and regenerative agriculture:

John Kempf,  Changing Agronomy with Biology

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHPOMBe2SUE

The "Integrity Grown" development is great news from the master Regen Ag advocate John Kempf, AEA (Advancing Eco Agriculture).

This program has the possibility of eliminating some of the limitations and weaknesses in "Organic" terminology and varied practices, misinformation, confusing consumer marketing hype, some outright misrepresentation and fraud, and certification program standards.