The Airline Mafia

[onzestan]

I think they are !!!!

For my regular trips to Europe for medical check-ups (I am 67 with a pacemaker) I

am always searching for the best possible comfort level in business class, and/or 1st class if the price is right. I should inform that for me the airport to which I fly is of less importance because I have the choice between Frankfurt, Amsterdam and/or Paris

since my final destination is in Flanders/Belgium and I have to rent a car at the airport anyway and don’t mind driving.

I have researched my butt of in Internet to find the best possible comfort level, and insist on having at least angled lie-flat seats in business class all the way.

Now for my problem.

I find it impossible to find all the info I need on the airlines websites, not even TG

because they have 2 types of 747-400’s one with and one without the desired seats, and impossible to find out which type they use on which route.

Further example is Qatar. The only info regarding used aircraft on a particular route

is the type of aircraft used and they have 2 configurations for their A330-200’s and

5 configurations for the A330-300 and no way to find out which have the good seats.

I have tried “seatguru” “skytrax” “flatseats” and others to no avail.

Emailing the airlines doesn’t help. Even if you do get a reply it is “sorry Sir we can’t

give you that information so long in advance.”

Anyway there should be a way to get the desired information at booking time, and if the info received does not match with the facts, there should be a system in place for compensation in whatever form possible ( extra mileage or free upgrade voucher for your next flight or even a rebate on your next flight)!

What use is a promotion campaign about new seats in 1st and business class if only one of the aircraft has them and the others will be refurbished in the very near future?

And what does very near future mean in airline lingo, one and a half years like Thai?

Furthermore I find the pricing policies a shamble to, for example on the Thai Air website for exactly the same flights on the same dates I found the routing FRA/BKK to be Euro 679,69 Euro that’s 31.266 Thai Baht in economy. The route BKK/FRA is Thai Baht 49.950. Can anyone explain the difference to me?

I may have opened a Pandora box here, and I am awaiting your comments with great anticipation.

Sorry for any spelling mistake, English is not my mother tongue.

Cheers

Onzestan

p.s. I have mentioned TG the most, not because I don’t like them but because I am living in Thailand, love the country for what it is, and Thai should be our first choice.

[lomatopo]

AFAIK, both (2x daily) TG flights to/from LHR and FRA are flying with refitted 747'es. AFAIK, twelve of eighteen of TG's 747'es have been refitted to date:

Registration/Reg. date/Version

HS-TGH 21-Feb-90 7443

HS-TGJ 22-Mar-90 7443

HS-TGK 31-Jan-91 7443

HS-TGL 12-Dec-91 7443

HS-TGM 04-Nov-92 7443

HS-TGN 08-Dec-92 7443

HS-TGO 20-Oct-93 7443

HS-TGP 22-Nov-94 7443

HS-TGT 20-Dec-96 7443

HS-TGW 28-Apr-97 7443

HS-TGX 12-Nov-97 7443

Six are remaining to be refitted:

HS-TGY 22-Dec-98 7442

HS-TGZ 11-May-99 7442

HS-TGA 11-May-01 7442

HS-TGB 27-Jun-01 7442

HS-TGF 03-Oct-03 7442

HS-TGG 04-Nov-03 7442

You can get updated fleet information by reviewing the appropriate airline subforum on Flyertalk, and/or asking specific questions.

Airline ticket pricing is a complicated subject to address for beginners but in your example you are mixing two primary variables, routing (which also involves currency issues) and fare bucket availability, so it is impossible to address the discrepancy without more research.

The key is to to become an informed consumer, only then can you get over your misperceptions that the airlines are some sort of Mafia and move on to gettting what you want, at the price you are willing to pay.

[Mahout Angrit]

The different pricing is always put down to marketing strategy. In short ,they charge what they can, depending on the what the competition are doing.

As for best fitted out aircraft, have you considered Singapore Airlines, they have always been the leaders in the region for new innovations and they more than likely have a standard fleet flying to Europe. You have a choice of Frankfurt or Amsterdam.

They claim 'space beds' are used in business class on flights to EU. They fly B777's to both places and say they are all fitted.

See SIA Cabin Ambience

Edited March 11, 2007 by Mahout Angrit

[onzestan]

You can get updated fleet information by reviewing the appropriate airline subforum on Flyertalk, and/or asking specific questions.

The key is to to become an informed consumer, only then can you get over your misperceptions that the airlines are some sort of Mafia and move on to gettting what you want, at the price you are willing to pay.

Dear Lomatopo,

The point I'm trying to make is that I should not have to resort to asking Flyertalk.

The information should be available on the respective websites of the airlines.

Anyway flying should NOT be a hit or miss situation, and why should any passenger have to become an informed consumer to get what he or she is paying for.

Thanks for the advice however I will try flyertalk.

Cheers

onzestan

[lomatopo]

You can get updated fleet information by reviewing the appropriate airline subforum on Flyertalk, and/or asking specific questions.

The key is to to become an informed consumer, only then can you get over your misperceptions that the airlines are some sort of Mafia and move on to gettting what you want, at the price you are willing to pay.

Dear Lomatopo,

The point I'm trying to make is that I should not have to resort to asking Flyertalk.

The information should be available on the respective websites of the airlines.

Anyway flying should NOT be a hit or miss situation, and why should any passenger have to become an informed consumer to get what he or she is paying for.

Thanks for the advice however I will try flyertalk.

Cheers

onzestan

It can take 2+ years to reconfigure the interior of an entire fleet of aircraft. Hence you cannot be guaranteed that your aircraft has been updated.

When a carrier upgrades an interior it is typically done to add new business class and first class seats, among other things. Typically this results in a reduction in the total number of seats and a different seatmap.

For example, a refitted TG 747 has 10/40/189 seats in F/C/Y (First/Business/Economy) and an older TG 747 has 14/50/189 seats. The refitted aircraft has lie-flat (but not fully horizontal) seats in Business class.

Seatmaps are available on most airlines' websites.

Further you can typically do a "phantom" booking to get a look at the seatmap which allows you to determine the aricraft configuration and the presence of "the new seats".

Hence all this information is available on the airlines' website, but you may not know how to look for it. So you need to become familar with several airlnes. It's really not that complex and will likely take less time than you've taken to fashion your post(s) on this thread.

I do understand your point, and what I am telling you is that the information you require to make an informed purchase is available, from several sources. Considering you'll be spending what, 20+ hours, on the plane you might consider taking just a fraction of that time to research the best possible options.

If you care to supply your desired routings, with origin and destination, I'd be happy to suggest a short-list for you.

BKK-FRA-AMS

BKK-SIN-AMS

etc.

In this day and age you have to become an informed consumer or else you'll just fall back on those "Mafia" cliches.

Edited March 11, 2007 by lomatopo

[onzestan]

[

The key is to to become an informed consumer, only then can you get over your misperceptions that the airlines are some sort of Mafia and move on to gettting what you want, at the price you are willing to pay.

Seatmaps are available on most airlines' websites.

Further you can typically do a "phantom" booking to get a look at the seatmap which allows you to determine the aricraft configuration and the presence of "the new seats".

I do understand your point, and what I am telling you is that the information you require to make an informed purchase is available, from several sources. Considering you'll be spending what, 20+ hours, on the plane you might consider taking just a fraction of that time to research the best possible options.

If you care to supply your desired routings, with origin and destination, I'd be happy to suggest a short-list for you.

BKK-FRA-AMS

BKK-SIN-AMS

etc.

In this day and age you have to become an informed consumer or else you'll just fall back on those "Mafia" cliches.

Dear Lomatopo,

I appreciate the effort you make in replying to my topic.

Maybe I was mistaken in using the word "mafia" which seems to upset you.

However at your suggestion I just performed a ghost booking on qatar airways (which get good reviews on Skytrax) for following route

BKK/FRA 09.06.2007 and return FRA/BKK on 16.06.2007.

Indeed I find that the route BKK/Doha is on A330-300 aircraft and DOHA/FRA is on A330-200.

Then I go to the seating plan on the same website and find that their A330-300 has 5 configurations, and their A330-200 has 2.

What now, do they all have the flatbed, and if not which aircraft has them and which will be used?

I have just bought a new motorcycle for my wife which is cheaper than a business class flight to Europe, and I had all the information I needed to make an informed choice in the brochures provided. Why can't the airlines do the same?

I cannot understand how you can justify the pricing system of airlines. Why can a passenger originating in Germany fly for nearly 20.00 Baht cheaper than I have to pay originating in Thailand, for exactly the same service albeit in a reversed direction. In my book that is discrimination.

I am not very literate as far as computers and internet are concerned, and that should not be an excuse

to not get the information I want. I insist that airlines should give this information if requested or not.

Anyway once more thank you for your time and effort.

Let's have a beer together if possible and discuss this matter further among other things.

Cheers

Onzestan

[lomatopo]

The word "Mafia" doesn't upset me but it does infer a lot of negative stereotypes which aren't really applicable in this case.

It looks like QR's entire A330 fleet has 160 degree recline business class seats, but I have no experience with the QR. I'd ask the question in the "Other Middle East and Africa Frequent Flyer Programs" subforum on Flyertalk to get verification.

When I purchased a motorbike here I relied on the experiences of others as much as on the brochures. Everytime I saw someone with the make/model I was considering I asked them if they liked the model and if they had any problems. I also checked with several repair shops to get their impressions. More information is always better than less.

I am not interested in justifying airline ticket pricing. I am only interested in understanding it and exploiting it to my benefit.

It is impossible to compare BKK-FRA-BKK with FRA-BKK-FRA on the same days for obvious reasons. Generally speaking the fares will be similar, exclusive of currency issues, however airline seats are a perishable commodity with several additional factors affecting pricing, so on any route on any given day you can see a large variation in price. The same economy seat, for BKK-FRA-BKK, could sell for 30,000 to 100,000 baht depending on a number of factors.

BKK-FRA-BKK in business class seems to be 80,000 - 120,000 baht for 1-stop service and 150,000 - 200,000 baht for non-stop service (TG, LH). I assume you understand why non-stop service costs more? (Not just convenience but less competition and fewer seats available, so higher prices.)

Here are some tools which you, and others, might find useful:

Fare Search Engine

(this is a pretty powerful engine, be sure to adjust the "Sales City")

Fare Class Availability

Seatmaps

TG Seatmaps

[mr_hippo]

Book a seat on any airline and they will tell you the aircraft type but not the specific aircraft - why? I think the answer is obvious, don't you? They do not know that far in advance, you can only be certain when the aircraft is at the gate. Let's book a flight - BKK-LHR, Thai, you know that you are flying on a B747: You say "I want to fly on Golf Oscar." I can just see the travel agent and airline rolling about on the floor, laughing. It is not an airline conspiracy against you, onzestan, it's a matter of logistics.

[onzestan]

OK Guys I give up.

It seems that I'm not able to express myopinions clearly.

That's my mistake and not yours.

I strongly feel that airlines withhold, or make it difficult to find, all the relevant information.

It should not be that only computer literate persons can find what they are looking for.

The budget airlines have an open and clear pricing policy and I now beforehand what I get for my money.

The other airlines do not offer me this service, and some not even on request by email.

I know about possible technical problems, but that is an excuse to often used for the wrong reasons.

I have traveled a lot, and it is because of a lot of mishaps that have happened to me and fellow passengers, that I am convinced that the airlines and their representatives are getting away with far to much at the expense of their passengers.

Airline travel should be a positive experience and much to often it is not, which leaves many passengers

with a nagging feeling that they have been had, and this should not be, and is also not in the best interest of the airline industry

Maybe I expect to much, but I have worked very hard for the money I earned, and do try to get the best value for the money I spend, and if that's wrong in your opinion then I'm advocating in the wrong forum.

I also have a couple of friends that have worked in the airline industry, and if only half of their stories is true, than we passengers are being had big time.

Cheers

onzestan

[jbowman1993]

If you have the money to regularly fly to Europe first class for check ups, why don' t you save the money, the time and the aggravation, and just go to Bumrumgrad, or one of the nice hospitals here......

[onzestan]

If you have the money to regularly fly to Europe first class for check ups, why don' t you save the money, the time and the aggravation, and just go to Bumrumgrad, or one of the nice hospitals here......

Hi there,

I fail to understand what your remark has to do with the topic in question. My topic is about airlines and not about Thai hospitals.(I can write books about my experiences with Thai hospitals)

My health is more important to me than saving a few bob, and if it takes flying to my home country to be able to explain my symptoms in my own language to a doctor that speaks the same language, and understands what I am saying then so be it, or are you unable to understand the logic of that.

cheers,

onzestan

[realviking48]

I have been reading TV the last 2 years, but this is my first post here, as I have gone to Thailand 3 times, from London, I found out: www.lastminute.com being the best search-engine to find the cheapest price to BKK and other places/countries, as well.. just compare it to others you have mention. Greetings to all of you.

[lomatopo]

Book a seat on any airline and they will tell you the aircraft type but not the specific aircraft - why? I think the answer is obvious, don't you? They do not know that far in advance, you can only be certain when the aircraft is at the gate. Let's book a flight - BKK-LHR, Thai, you know that you are flying on a B747: You say "I want to fly on Golf Oscar." I can just see the travel agent and airline rolling about on the floor, laughing. It is not an airline conspiracy against you, onzestan, it's a matter of logistics.

This is correct in that you will not know the specific tail number of the aircraft, although it is known months in advance internally to the airline as they have a general aircraft rotation schedule. But as I have said several times in this thread, for BKK-LHR-BKK and BKK-FRA-BKK you can be certain that your 747 will be one of the twelve aircraft that have been refitted with the new first and business class seats. Barring unforeseen aircraft substitutions you should be good to go.

I've flown TG 921 FRA-BKK three times in the last 14 months. Each time the aircraft was HS-TGM (aka "Chao Phraya"). I've flown TG 920 BKK-FRA three times as well but this is a night departure so didn't take notice of the tail number (but I could have asked the cabin staff).

Maybe I expect to much, but I have worked very hard for the money I earned, and do try to get the best value for the money I spend, and if that's wrong in your opinion then I'm advocating in the wrong forum.

I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with you here. Certainly everything I've suggested is that we can become informed consumers and get the best value for our money. I certainly do this. I think we just disagree on how best to achieve this goal? I advocate taking control, becoming active in identifying the best travel experiences for the least amount of money. You seem to want to depend on the airlines to present you with all of the information necessary to make an informed decision. I'd suggest that your approach will not lead to 100% satisfaction so maybe you need to try a different approach?

I also have a couple of friends that have worked in the airline industry, and if only half of their stories is true, than we passengers are being had big time.

After taking control of my travel destiny eight years ago I have never been "had", big time or otherwise. But if you'd care to share one or two of their "stories" I'm sure we'd maybe learn a few new tricks.

[onzestan]

After taking control of my travel destiny eight years ago I have never been "had", big time or otherwise. But if you'd care to share one or two of their "stories" I'm sure we'd maybe learn a few new tricks.

Dear Lomatopo,

This will be the last time I will respond to this topic.

You want to persuade me that I can find all the info I need on the internet.

I'm trying to make the point that airlines should provide me with all the info that I need, and in my opinion they could if they would.

So we are getting nowhere.

And in response to one of of you claiming that I would be laughed at when asking for a specific aircraft, let me explain to you that aircraft schedules are known months before each flight, for each aircraft.Then these are adapted to changing circumstances and become firm approximately 1 month

before the actual flight.

OK that's it for this topic, notwithstanding all the information that I received from you I remain convinced that airlines could be a lot more honest in their relation with their customers but most of them are not interested.

Cheers

onzestan