Thailand suffers sharp fall in rankings of best countries for retirement

[dbrenn]

On 3/12/2021 at 4:57 AM, itsari said:

It is not true , many foreigners using back to back tourist visas to remain in Thailand . Do not need to be a visa runner now that the covid 19 extensions are available . 

I was originally asked how freedoms have changed, using examples that weren't related to Covid. The example you give is related to Covid, and is as such temporary. 

[Youlike]

Did they also count in the filthy air pollution from Thailand? Or the polluted sea around Pattaya?

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, dbrenn said:

I was originally asked how freedoms have changed, using examples that weren't related to Covid. The example you give is related to Covid, and is as such temporary. 

 

So people are no longer allowed unlimited, back-to-back tourist visas. That's arguably one "freedom" that has changed. 

 

I know the traffic cameras have also reduced some "freedoms", any others?

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Yellowtail

[dbrenn]

33 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

So people are no longer allowed unlimited, back-to-back tourist visas. That's arguably one "freedom" that has changed. 

 

I know the traffic cameras have also reduced some "freedoms", any others?

 

 

 

Lots. But I think you enjoy being under strict control, being told what to do, and what's good for you all the time. You wouldn't enjoy freedom even if it were offered to you. Now run back to your mum.

Edited March 13, 2021 by dbrenn

[Yellowtail]

11 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Lots. But I think you enjoy being under strict control, being told what to do, and what's good for you all the time. You wouldn't enjoy freedom even if it were offered to you. Now run back to your mum.

Lots, meaning too many to list? 

Back to your mum maybe, she still working it?

 

[Lacessit]

On 3/12/2021 at 1:16 AM, upu2 said:

There are three alternatives, which are:

1. Thailand has changed from say 10 years ago

2. Thailand is the same but you have changed and

3. Both you and Thailand have changed but in different directions hence you notice the difference.

For me, I can't say Thailand has changed very much at all.

Air pollution is unchanged.

Thai roads are still a survival course.

Soi dogs are as abundant and fecund as ever.

Noise is still part and parcel of daily life.

Still plenty of women offering to take care of me, if I support  them.

Thai family bonds are as strong as ever.

Rote learning and obedience to authority is still entrenched in the Thai education system.

Real estate prices and rents have not increased from 10 years ago. If anything, they are a bit cheaper.

The only changes I've seen are the impact of COVID-19 on the lives of many Thais, and an increase in obesity.

 

 

[micmichd]

10 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

For me, I can't say Thailand has changed very much at all.

Air pollution is unchanged.

Thai roads are still a survival course.

Soi dogs are as abundant and fecund as ever.

Noise is still part and parcel of daily life.

Still plenty of women offering to take care of me, if I support  them.

Thai family bonds are as strong as ever.

Rote learning and obedience to authority is still entrenched in the Thai education system.

Real estate prices and rents have not increased from 10 years ago. If anything, they are a bit cheaper.

The only changes I've seen are the impact of COVID-19 on the lives of many Thais, and an increase in obesity.

 

 

Since I'm (as an orphan) living with a Thai family who work all day (eg in real estate), and since I know how to handle soi dogs, it's okay for me. 

I don't have problems with Thais, I have problems with hyperbureaucratic Germany, and as far as I can see, many Germans now have problems too with the hyperbureaucratic EU. 

[Sydebolle]

On 3/11/2021 at 2:30 PM, Yellowtail said:

 

I never seem to encounter all the rude, impolite clowns at immigration. They seem to treat me as respectfully as I would expect to be treated by a government employee anywhere. 

Also, when the form says to fill it out in black ink, I fill it out in black ink. If I did use the wrong color in and was told I had to use the correct color ink, I would just assume I made a mistake and would re-do the form in the correct color ink. I would not blame the staff that's trying to do their job.

It is amusing that when guys always seem to have difficulty with the people they look down their nose at...

 

Point taken - but lets be frank. A linguistically challenged retiree fills in a form in blue ink (instead of black or vice versa); what difference does it make to the content of the form? Is is really necessary to bully these net spenders, trying to abide by the law of immigration, to shout (I‘ve seen that with my own eyes) to people because of the wrong colour. So happened between a grumpy immigration officer whose English was below standard and a gentleman whose mother tongue was French and his English was equally poor. 
The same incident, between a junior Thai and an elderly citizen would never have ended in such a verbal abuse by the younger as the elder would have put him right (and quite right so)! 

I am not affected by all those „mishaps“ but while one part screams for more tourists to fill the seriously empty pockets of millions of Thais, the other part (of the same governmental establishment) has officers screaming for blue instead of black inked forms - your call! 

[Lacessit]

18 minutes ago, micmichd said:

Since I'm (as an orphan) living with a Thai family who work all day (eg in real estate), and since I know how to handle soi dogs, it's okay for me. 

I don't have problems with Thais, I have problems with hyperbureaucratic Germany, and as far as I can see, many Germans now have problems too with the hyperbureaucratic EU. 

I don't have problems with Thais either, I just regard what I listed as part of living here. One either learns how to accommodate the various inconveniences, or becomes a grumpy farang.

Bureaucracies are the same everywhere, their goal is self-perpetuation and expansion.

[OswaldBastable]

4 hours ago, dbrenn said:

I was originally asked how freedoms have changed, using examples that weren't related to Covid. The example you give is related to Covid, and is as such temporary. 

May I point out that most changes to freedom in the world today are due to COVID. Who could have possibly predicted that the freedom to leave your house (England) for leisure would ever be revoked?

As for 'best countries for retirement', Thailand was the only country I could easily enter for my retirement, so from England it became the only country for my retirement.

I don't know anything about Thailand, as I'm not allowed out yet, but it appears in another week I'll be free to visit beaches, have a swim, go to restaurants and drink in bars, which were all activities prohibited to me in the UK for the last year, with no end in sight.

Edited March 13, 2021 by OswaldBastable

[dbrenn]

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Lots, meaning too many to list? 

Back to your mum maybe, she still working it?

 

You refuted my assertion that Thailand is less free. I came back to you with draconian new rules limiting freedom of foreigners here, to the extent where vast tracts of this forum are devoted to talking about them and how onerous they are. In pointing this out, I proved you wrong.

Now you want more examples, having already lost the argument, not contributing anything to the discussion yourself, and ignoring the example I gave. What's wrong with you?

[dbrenn]

1 minute ago, OswaldBastable said:

May I point out that most changes to freedom in the world today are due to COVID. Who could have possibly predicted that the freedom to leave your house (England) for leisure would ever be revoked?

As for 'best countries for retirement', Thailand was the only country I could easily enter for my retirement, so from England it became the only country for my retirement.

You're right, but the optimist in me hopes that Covid is temporary, and will be nothing more than a bad memory in the not too distant future. I could be wrong of course, governments having got a taste of authoritarian rule.

[OswaldBastable]

Just now, dbrenn said:

You're right, but the optimist in me hopes that Covid is temporary, and will be nothing more than a bad memory in the not too distant future. I could be wrong of course, governments having got a taste of authoritarian rule.

I also hoped that to be the case, but after a year I ran out of hope and jumped ship to Thailand. How long should one wait before accepting temporary restrictions are in reality permanent?

Edited March 13, 2021 by OswaldBastable

[dcnx]

On 3/6/2021 at 1:51 AM, gearbox said:

How many Aussies retired in Mexico?

I don’t know, but a quick google search says there are 1.5 million Americans living in Mexico.

[dcnx]

20 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Bureaucracies are the same everywhere

That’s not true at all, especially when it comes to visas. 

[dbrenn]

3 minutes ago, OswaldBastable said:

I also hoped that to be the case, but after a year I ran out of hope and jumped ship to Thailand. 

Totally agree that places like Britain have willingly abandoned centuries old traditions of freedom. It's painful to watch.

[Lacessit]

23 minutes ago, dcnx said:

That’s not true at all, especially when it comes to visas. 

That was not the case when I was attempting to get a tourist visa for my Thai GF to visit Australia. Finished up having to use an immigration lawyer.

Please point me towards a nation, city or even local council where a contraction of the bureaucracy has occurred, IMO they'd be as rare as hen's teeth.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Lacessit

[dbrenn]

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

That was not the case when I was attempting to get a tourist visa for my Thai GF to visit Australia. Finished up having to use an immigration lawyer.

Please point me towards a nation, city or even local council where a contraction of the bureaucracy has occurred, IMO they'd be as rare as hen's teeth.

I agree with that. All governments do is enact new laws, repealing very few old laws, and creating more and more rules and regulations that we all have to follow.

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, Sydebolle said:

 

Point taken - but lets be frank. A linguistically challenged retiree fills in a form in blue ink (instead of black or vice versa); what difference does it make to the content of the form? Is is really necessary to bully these net spenders, trying to abide by the law of immigration, to shout (I‘ve seen that with my own eyes) to people because of the wrong colour. So happened between a grumpy immigration officer whose English was below standard and a gentleman whose mother tongue was French and his English was equally poor. 
The same incident, between a junior Thai and an elderly citizen would never have ended in such a verbal abuse by the younger as the elder would have put him right (and quite right so)! 

I am not affected by all those „mishaps“ but while one part screams for more tourists to fill the seriously empty pockets of millions of Thais, the other part (of the same governmental establishment) has officers screaming for blue instead of black inked forms - your call! 

 

I've been here over twenty years and I bet I could count on my hands the number of times a Thai (not drunk) has raised their voice at me. Certainly fewer than the number of times I have raised my voice at them. 

You think people should be able to use any color ink they like. I do not. I think people should use whatever color ink is required on the form. If the form says use black ink and a form with blue ink is accepted, the next guy in line is arguing that yellow ink should be acceptable and the guy after him wants to use a pencil. That a government employee gets exasperated when someone (likely) gets rude and is demanding an explanation WHY they have to use black ink, when red ink should be perfectly acceptable does not surprise me. 

 

[jerry921]

I've generally stopped reading this forum, but I saw a headline about Thailand I wanted to read more on. Then I saw this thread and stuck my nose in once again to comment.

For years before retirement I was planning on retiring to Thailand. I've been to thailand a number of times, months altogether, not weeks, and I felt I could be happy as an expat.

But when it finally came time to choose, 4 years ago I picked Mexico.

Issues that swayed me:

- distance, convenient travel, as I still have an aged parent to travel back to visit in the US a few times a year (it's a 4 hour non-stop flight).

- language, just being able to read signs and puzzle out what they mean is easier with a roman alphabet, plus spanish is easier than Thai to learn to speak

- residency rules. I had to go through a process with the Mexican consulate to get a visa, then another with Mexican immigration after I arrived to get temporary residency, then another after one year to extend it, then after 4 years to get permanent residency. Those four processes were difficult, time consuming and bureaucratic, but I'm done. I have residency for life. I don't have to report to the police every time I sleep in a different bed (I'm supposed to keep them informed of my main address if it changes, is all). I can own, 100%, my home (though I have to use a bank trust, I have 100% of the ownership rights).

- beach. I live in a condo on a beautiful nearly-white sand unpolluted beach with crystal blue Carribean water.

The biggest minus for Mexico vs Thailand for me would be the food.

 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, dbrenn said:

You refuted my assertion that Thailand is less free. I came back to you with draconian new rules limiting freedom of foreigners here, to the extent where vast tracts of this forum are devoted to talking about them and how onerous they are. In pointing this out, I proved you wrong.

Now you want more examples, having already lost the argument, not contributing anything to the discussion yourself, and ignoring the example I gave. What's wrong with you?

While there are any number of things wrong with me, none of them really have anything to do with the discussion. 

In any event, I do not remember you providing any specific example of rules (draconian or otherwise) limiting the freedom of foreigners in Thailand. Tightening visa reequipments does not limit the freedom of foreigners in Thailand, it limits the NUMBER of foreigners in Thailand, yes?

That said, you (and others) have been arguing that there have been MANY reductions of freedoms in Thailand. I'm willing to stipulate that people not being allowed to use unlimited back-to-back tourist visas, or stricter visa requirements in general,  could be considered an example of a freedom being limited.

That's one. As you claim there are many, would you please provide a few more examples of the many freedoms that are be limited in Thailand? Providing a single weak example does not support a claim of many. 

To be clear, I never said freedoms were not being limited, I only said I have not experienced them. 

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

For me, I can't say Thailand has changed very much at all.

Air pollution is unchanged.

Thai roads are still a survival course.

Soi dogs are as abundant and fecund as ever.

Noise is still part and parcel of daily life.

Still plenty of women offering to take care of me, if I support  them.

Thai family bonds are as strong as ever.good, 

Rote learning and obedience to authority is still entrenched in the Thai education system.

Real estate prices and rents have not increased from 10 years ago. If anything, they are a bit cheaper.

The only changes I've seen are the impact of COVID-19 on the lives of many Thais, and an increase in obesity.

Air pollution in Bangkok seems better to me than it was twenty years ago.

I think the roads are generally good. Certainly the traffic in Bangkok has improved.

Soi dogs never bothered me.

Plenty of women everywhere.

I think that generally, family bonds are weakening.

My boy was getting a great education in the Thai system pre-covid. It has suffered somewhat in the last year. 

Real-estate prices seem to have gone up considerably in Bangkok, where you you live?

Covid and western food have defiantly taken their toll..

[Yellowtail]

17 minutes ago, jerry921 said:

I've generally stopped reading this forum, but I saw a headline about Thailand I wanted to read more on. Then I saw this thread and stuck my nose in once again to comment.

For years before retirement I was planning on retiring to Thailand. I've been to thailand a number of times, months altogether, not weeks, and I felt I could be happy as an expat.

But when it finally came time to choose, 4 years ago I picked Mexico.

Issues that swayed me:

- distance, convenient travel, as I still have an aged parent to travel back to visit in the US a few times a year (it's a 4 hour non-stop flight).

- language, just being able to read signs and puzzle out what they mean is easier with a roman alphabet, plus spanish is easier than Thai to learn to speak

- residency rules. I had to go through a process with the Mexican consulate to get a visa, then another with Mexican immigration after I arrived to get temporary residency, then another after one year to extend it, then after 4 years to get permanent residency. Those four processes were difficult, time consuming and bureaucratic, but I'm done. I have residency for life. I don't have to report to the police every time I sleep in a different bed (I'm supposed to keep them informed of my main address if it changes, is all). I can own, 100%, my home (though I have to use a bank trust, I have 100% of the ownership rights).

- beach. I live in a condo on a beautiful nearly-white sand unpolluted beach with crystal blue Carribean water.

The biggest minus for Mexico vs Thailand for me would be the food.

 

 

Owning your home in Mexico is easy. Selling it? Not so much.

[Lacessit]

5 hours ago, dbrenn said:

I agree with that. All governments do is enact new laws, repealing very few old laws, and creating more and more rules and regulations that we all have to follow.

What sticks in my memory is when the Australian government brought in the Goods and Services Tax, or GST. It was spruiked by the politicians as "a fairer, simpler tax system".

Almost overnight, the Australian Tax Code morphed from 400 pages to 3100 pages. It was a gift to every tax accountant and tax lawyer in the country.

Thai Immigration bureaucracy is no different, if stuff like TM30's, 90 day reporting and yearly visa extensions were eliminated, the government might have to start cutting numbers. That would never do, Thailand prides itself on full employment. It's also why there is so much competition for government jobs here.

I've only worked for the government once, in my youth. I can't imagine a more stultifying occupation.

[dbrenn]

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

While there are any number of things wrong with me, none of them really have anything to do with the discussion. 

In any event, I do not remember you providing any specific example of rules (draconian or otherwise) limiting the freedom of foreigners in Thailand. Tightening visa reequipments does not limit the freedom of foreigners in Thailand, it limits the NUMBER of foreigners in Thailand, yes?

That said, you (and others) have been arguing that there have been MANY reductions of freedoms in Thailand. I'm willing to stipulate that people not being allowed to use unlimited back-to-back tourist visas, or stricter visa requirements in general,  could be considered an example of a freedom being limited.

That's one. As you claim there are many, would you please provide a few more examples of the many freedoms that are be limited in Thailand? Providing a single weak example does not support a claim of many. 

To be clear, I never said freedoms were not being limited, I only said I have not experienced them. 

Of course there are people who haven't suffered as a result of visa rule tightening. I'm Thai, so I haven't, and you may not have suffered either. The fact is that so many people have, which is a reduction of freedom overall. You asked me to give you an example of reduced freedom - before it was was free and easy to stay, for a great many, and now it isn't. This forum contains page after page of posts from people who are being painted into one or another corner by tightening rules, having to report their whereabouts, jump through endless hoops. The threat if getting kicked out makes one feel less free, no?

And there are other examples - one end of the political spectrum might say that, since the 2014 coup, political freedom has diminished substantially. Whether we agree or disagree is irrelevant. The fact is that people who oppose the powers that be have been oppressed in greater measure than before. I'm not saying that's a bad thing - heaven forbid that Thailand should degenerate in the way that the West has done - but it's a fact, nevertheless, that freedoms have been curtailed. In everyday life, rules, regulations, signs everywhere forbidding this, that and the other, backed up by technology. Definitely less free, in Thailand and elsewhere.

Why don't you give some examples of how you think freedoms have improved? Go on, I'm interested to hear.

Edited March 13, 2021 by dbrenn

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, dbrenn said:

Of course there are people who haven't suffered as a result of visa rule tightening. I'm Thai, so I haven't, and you may not have suffered either. The fact is that so many people have, which is a reduction of freedom overall. You asked me to give you an example of reduced freedom - before it was was free and easy to stay, for a great many, and now it isn't. This forum contains page after page of posts from people who are being painted into one or another corner by tightening rules, having to report their whereabouts, jump through endless hoops. The threat if getting kicked out makes one feel less free, no?

And there are other examples - one end of the political spectrum might say that, since the 2014 coup, political freedom has diminished substantially. Whether we agree or disagree is irrelevant. The fact is that people who oppose the powers that be have been oppressed in greater measure than before. I'm not saying that's a bad thing - heaven forbid that Thailand should degenerate in the way that the West has done - but it's a fact, nevertheless, that freedoms have been curtailed. In everyday life, rules, regulations, signs everywhere forbidding this, that and the other, backed up by technology. Definitely less free, in Thailand and elsewhere.

Why don't you give some examples of how you think freedoms have improved? Go on, I'm interested to hear.

Again, I'm not claiming freedoms have not been limited, I am only claiming it has not been my experience. I do not get involved in politics and I have no difficulty with my visa, so my freedoms seem unaffected.

 

 

[dbrenn]

6 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Again, I'm not claiming freedoms have not been limited, I am only claiming it has not been my experience. I do not get involved in politics and I have no difficulty with my visa, so my freedoms seem unaffected.

 

 

Good for you, but we were talking about two different things. You were talking about your own experiences, as if they were shared by everyone else. I was talking about the experiences of many others, since your own experience doesn't really matter to me.

Edited March 13, 2021 by dbrenn

[Yellowtail]

6 hours ago, dbrenn said:

Good for you, but we were talking about two different things. You were talking about your own experiences, as if they were shared by everyone else. I was talking about the experiences of many others, since your own experience doesn't really matter to me.

Actually we are not talking about two different things. I agree that visa requirements have become somewhat more restrictive over the years.

This thread is supposed to be about expat retirees. Do expat retirees typically get involved in Thai politics? 

I agree Thailand would not be a good choice for expat retirees that:

1. Are not able to meet and demonstrate the current financial and general visa requirements.

2. Want to be politically active in the community.

 

[dbrenn]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Actually we are not talking about two different things. I agree that visa requirements have become somewhat more restrictive over the years.

This thread is supposed to be about expat retirees. Do expat retirees typically get involved in Thai politics? 

I agree Thailand would not be a good choice for expat retirees that:

1. Are not able to meet and demonstrate the current financial and general visa requirements.

2. Want to be politically active in the community.

 

A lot of expats are involved in Thailand political debate. It's over in the news forum.

[Yellowtail]

16 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

A lot of expats are involved in Thailand political debate. It's over in the news forum.

A lot of expats discuss any number of things they are not involved in. Being involved in a discussion about something is not the same as being involved  in something.  From what I've seen, it seems to be the same people regurgitating the same tired rhetoric over and over again.

In any event, I doubt very much that the number of people discussing Thai politics (other than double pricing, visa issues and corruption) is significant.