Stable alternative to mRNA vaccines?

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DNA Vaccines for COVID-19 Shown Effective in Hamsters – Quicker Production and Lower Cost Than mRNA Vaccines

Currently available COVID-19 vaccines rely on mRNA strands to teach the human immune system to recognize the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Now, researchers reporting in PLOS Neglected Tropical Diseases have reported the successful development of a vaccine that instead uses DNA encoding the virus’ spike protein.

While both DNA and mRNA vaccines use genetic material encoding part of a virus to elicit an immune response, DNA vaccines can often be produced more quickly and at lower cost and transported without the requirement of cold temperatures. Recent clinical trials have indicated that DNA vaccines are safe and effective in treating infections including HIV-1, Zika virus, Ebola virus and influenza viruses.

https://scitechdaily.com/dna-vaccines-for-covid-19-shown-effective-in-hamsters-quicker-production-and-lower-cost-than-mrna-vaccines/

[friendofthai]

The beginning of the mRNA era resembles the beginning of the airships era. People loved airships but they were too flammable. It was found that there could be only one solution for this problem - using Helium instead of Hydrogen. But the price of helium is so huge that it can not be used widely.
So is the price of solving numerous problems of mRNA vaccines. The use of DNA adds one more level of complexity, because the desired mRNA is made from the DNA from the vaccine. More levels of complexity could result in additional side effects and significant risk of harm to health.
While China and Russia are always ready to provide safe and cheap alternatives based on the classic approaches.

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6 minutes ago, friendofthai said:

The beginning of the mRNA era resembles the beginning of the airships era. People loved airships but they were too flammable. It was found that there could be only one solution for this problem - using Helium instead of Hydrogen. But the price of helium is so huge that it can not be used widely.
So is the price of solving numerous problems of mRNA vaccines. The use of DNA adds one more level of complexity, because the desired mRNA is made from the DNA from the vaccine. More levels of complexity could result in additional side effects and significant risk of harm to health.
While China and Russia are always ready to provide safe and cheap alternatives based on the classic approaches.

More airship nonsense? Get back to us when the data actually support your fearmongering.

[Emdog]

Hot air. Balloon bread.

[friendofthai]

56 minutes ago, Emdog said:

Hot air. Balloon bread.

Those who propose using DNA instead of mRNA have similar way of thinking. mRNA is made from DNA similarly to hot air is made from normal air. And this is so called "an additional level of complexity" which brings additional problems to the entire system. Such a problem was the huge amount of hot air needed (more than 3x, compared to the Helium based airship). So is the DNA vaccine solution. This additional level of complexity comes with its own problems:
"The major challenge of DNA vaccines is the poor efficiency of DNA delivery into cells for antigen expression and consequently poor efficacy of the vaccines. To increase the DNA delivery efficiency, physical methods or chemical methods can be used."
[quote from the article that is cited in the original article]
I think in case of vaccines we should prefer more time-tested solutions like inactivated virus or adenovirus based vaccines.

Edited May 29, 2021 by friendofthai

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, friendofthai said:

I think in case of vaccines we should prefer more time-tested solutions like inactivated virus or adenovirus based vaccines.

The reality is all approaches will be pursued to their maximum potential.

 

There's plenty of room for all types of vaccine.

 

Also, the age of the antiviral has barely been kick started so far but it's coming.....that's going to be a game changer.

 

[Phillip9]

Keep in mind, your body will just transcribe the DNA to mRNA, so the end result is the same--You will have the same mRNA inside you.   Your body will then translate that mRNA to stable protein which is actually what your immune system learns to recognize.

 

So a DNA vaccine would just and an unnecessary extra step.  

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1 hour ago, Phillip9 said:

Keep in mind, your body will just transcribe the DNA to mRNA, so the end result is the same--You will have the same mRNA inside you.   Your body will then translate that mRNA to stable protein which is actually what your immune system learns to recognize.

 

So a DNA vaccine would just and an unnecessary extra step.  

Did you read the part about where it's temperature stable? And that it should be cheaper and easier to manufacture?

[Phillip9]

10 hours ago, placeholder said:

Did you read the part about where it's temperature stable? 

The cold temperature requirements of the mRNA vaccines has been drastically overdramatized.  It’s not a problem at all except in extremely remote areas without access to dry ice.  They can simply be stored in the special shipping containers they come in by adding more dry ice ever few days.  
 

Who would want an extra bit of unnecessary DNA floating around in their blood just because it’s cheaper?
 

 

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19 minutes ago, Phillip9 said:

The cold temperature requirements of the mRNA vaccines has been drastically overdramatized.  It’s not a problem at all except in extremely remote areas without access to dry ice.  They can simply be stored in the special shipping containers they come in by adding more dry ice ever few days.  
 

Who would want an extra bit of unnecessary DNA floating around in their blood just because it’s cheaper?
 

 

"David Gitlin, the CEO of refrigeration specialists Carrier, told CNN last week: "When you look at places like Africa and India, they just don't have the cold chain infrastructure. The United States spends 300 times more per capita on cold chain than India."

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/21/world/coronavirus-vaccine-dry-ice-intl/index.html

 

Maybe really poor nations might consider cost to be an issue? And as for "Who would want an extra bit of unnecessary DNA floating around in their blood....", if phase 3 trials establish that it's safe and effective, why would any rational person care?

[cormanr7]

Alternative techniques are often just a way to circumvent existing patents, they are not necessarily better.

When it comes to cold storage, Moderna now claims that its vaccine can be stored in a refrigerator for up to 3 months (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/29/moderna-covid-vaccine-can-remain-stable-at-refrigerated-temps-for-3-months.html#:~:text=The%20mRNA%20vaccine%20is%20approved%20to%20be%20stored%20in%20a,shelf%20life%20for%20the%20vaccine). Work is continuing on, amongst others, freeze-dried mRNA vaccines and BionTech-Pfizer will apparently soon start a phase III trial   https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/future-covid-19-vaccines-might-not-have-to-be-kept-so-cold

[cdemundo]

I am very excited about this.

Where do I register my hamster?

[Scott]

Off-topic post and post with quote only have been removed.  

[cdemundo]

Can't understand why anyone would be looking for an alternative to the mRNA vaccines.  Seems they are the best and safest.

Maybe someone making a decision based on cost of acquiring vaccines for a whole nation but for individuals why would you?

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9 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

Can't understand why anyone would be looking for an alternative to the mRNA vaccines.  Seems they are the best and safest.

Maybe someone making a decision based on cost of acquiring vaccines for a whole nation but for individuals why would you?

Do you mean of vaccines currently available? Then I would agree. But if equally effective and far more stable vaccines are attainable in the future, that moreover are cheaper and easier to manufacture, why not aim for that? They would certainly be a boon to a country where cold chain transport is a lot more difficult.

[sandyf]

On 5/29/2021 at 4:22 PM, friendofthai said:

I think in case of vaccines we should prefer more time-tested solutions like inactivated virus or adenovirus based vaccines.

I am with you on that.  I do not have a problem with vaccines being fast tracked for emergency use on the basis of using established methodology. The mRNA vaccines do not have that long term history and more caution should have been used. Who is to say that in 10 or 20 years that a problem will not come to light, and may be worse than the pandemic.

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, cdemundo said:

Can't understand why anyone would be looking for an alternative to the mRNA vaccines.  Seems they are the best and safest.

And over how many years was that theory established?

[rwill]

9 hours ago, cdemundo said:

Can't understand why anyone would be looking for an alternative to the mRNA vaccines.  Seems they are the best and safest.

Maybe someone making a decision based on cost of acquiring vaccines for a whole nation but for individuals why would you?

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

And over how many years was that theory established?

 

He's probably basing on the fact that the ones that have had some blood clotting issues are not mRNA vaccines.

[rabas]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

And over how many years was that theory established?

 

During the 20 years of research, development, and study that went into the development of COVID  mRNA vaccines.  mRNA technologies were chosen in part because they offer safer ways of making vaccines. It has been known for a long time.

 

Dr Drew Weissman (centre top), a professor of Infectious Diseases at Penn State, is known as the “father” of messenger RNA biology. Others in the photo (clockwise from top, left) are biochemist Dr Katalin Karikó, Weissman's co-inventor and known as the "mother" of mRNA vaccines; Moderna CEO Stephan Bancel; US scientist Dr Robert Langer Jr; Dr. Ugur Sahin and Dr. Özlem Türeci of BioNTech, and Canadian stem cell biologist Dr Derrick J. Rossi.  Reference

 

Weissman and Karikó worked closely together at Penn State.

[Thai Visa Member 999999]

On 5/29/2021 at 5:22 AM, friendofthai said:

Those who propose using DNA instead of mRNA have similar way of thinking. mRNA is made from DNA similarly to hot air is made from normal air. And this is so called "an additional level of complexity" which brings additional problems to the entire system. Such a problem was the huge amount of hot air needed (more than 3x, compared to the Helium based airship). So is the DNA vaccine solution. This additional level of complexity comes with its own problems:
"The major challenge of DNA vaccines is the poor efficiency of DNA delivery into cells for antigen expression and consequently poor efficacy of the vaccines. To increase the DNA delivery efficiency, physical methods or chemical methods can be used."
[quote from the article that is cited in the original article]
I think in case of vaccines we should prefer more time-tested solutions like inactivated virus or adenovirus based vaccines.

The adenovirus is a new vector. It hasn't been tested by time at all. 

 

Inactivated viruses always result in inoculated coming down with the disease with very low event probability. Nobody who received the mRNA vaccine will come down with Covid as a consequence. 

[friendofthai]

22 hours ago, cdemundo said:

I am very excited about this.

Where do I register my hamster?

Before helping the research you should help our beloved president Bashar Assad first. He has just won the election received congratulations from Putin, but his economy is still experiencing difficulties due to US sanctions. Please buy two more Syrian hamsters that are being used in the research.

[Phillip9]

3 hours ago, Thai Visa Member 999999 said:

Inactivated viruses always result in inoculated coming down with the disease with very low event probability.

 

Actually, historically there have been incidents where quite a lot of people have come down with the disease from inactivated viruses.  Polio is a well known example where an inactivated virus vaccine killed thousands of people.  

 

Anyone thinking an inactivated virus is the safest vaccine is completely misinformed.  They have a poor safety record and don't gives as strong of an immune response which is why western countries avoid them now if there are other alternatives.

[friendofthai]

25 minutes ago, Phillip9 said:

 

Actually, historically there have been incidents where quite a lot of people have come down with the disease from inactivated viruses.  Polio is a well known example where an inactivated virus vaccine killed thousands of people.  

This clearly demonstrates that any technology needs time to become safe. It is safe to fly on the modern aircrafts. But thousands of people had to pay their lives before the aircrafts became safe enough. And what about cars? Were they safe in the beginning of the car era? Of course not.

[Phillip9]

39 minutes ago, friendofthai said:

This clearly demonstrates that any technology needs time to become safe. It is safe to fly on the modern aircrafts. But thousands of people had to pay their lives before the aircrafts became safe enough. And what about cars?

 

Would you fly on a Chinese designed airplane?  You think their cars are safe? 

 

Vaccine manufacturing is complicated, and China doesn't have the experience western pharmaceutical companies have.   They will probably repeat many of the historical mistakes western companies made decades ago.

 

 

 

 

 

[cdemundo]

7 hours ago, rwill said:

 

He's probably basing on the fact that the ones that have had some blood clotting issues are not mRNA vaccines.

I am basing it on the fact that millions and millions of people have been vaccinated with Moderna and Pfizer vaccines and they have proven to be effective and safe.  US COVID infections way down mostly due to the mRNA vaccines.

No proposed mechanism for a 30 year in the future disaster as some fear. 

I have an acquaintance who still thinks the jury is out on the safety of microwave ovens, I continue to boldly use my microwave and to hell with the danger!

 

[impulse]

7 hours ago, Thai Visa Member 999999 said:

The adenovirus is a new vector. It hasn't been tested by time at all. 

 

Inactivated viruses always result in inoculated coming down with the disease with very low event probability. Nobody who received the mRNA vaccine will come down with Covid as a consequence. 

 

But it'll be years before we know what other effects they may have.  That's the rub with "long term" effects.  It takes a long term to identify them.

 

Come back after some vaccinated women with vaccinated husbands have conceived kids, taken them to term and we know they're healthy and free of learning disabilities.

 

For me, at age 64 with no future plans to pop out kids, it was an easy decision.  For my nieces and nephews in their 20's with virtually no risk of Covid death and with kids in their future, it's a much different calculus.

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by impulse

[sandyf]

14 hours ago, rwill said:

 

He's probably basing on the fact that the ones that have had some blood clotting issues are not mRNA vaccines.

Pure speculation, what he doesn't know is if those concerned would have had the same reaction if given an mRNA vaccine.

The reaction observed is an individual response and has also been observed in other situations, the most notable being the drug Heparin.

[rabas]

8 hours ago, friendofthai said:

This clearly demonstrates that any technology needs time to become safe. It is safe to fly on the modern aircrafts. But thousands of people had to pay their lives before the aircrafts became safe enough. And what about cars? Were they safe in the beginning of the car era? Of course not.

 

No. Replacing old technologies with known problems (vaccines that can infect you) does not demonstrate that a new technology that fixes the problems (they can't infect you) is unsafe. It is a newer, safer vaccine, researched for decades.

 

You have purchased a newer, safer car.

[rabas]

7 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Pure speculation, what he doesn't know is if those concerned would have had the same reaction if given an mRNA vaccine.

The reaction observed is an individual response and has also been observed in other situations, the most notable being the drug Heparin.

Scientists Find How AstraZeneca Vaccine Causes Clots

"This is, in my opinion, rock-solid evidence," said Andreas Greinacher, MD, head of the Institute of Immunology and Transfusion Medicine, University Hospital Greifswald, Germany"

[sandyf]

8 minutes ago, rabas said:

Scientists Find How AstraZeneca Vaccine Causes Clots

"This is, in my opinion, rock-solid evidence," said Andreas Greinacher, MD, head of the Institute of Immunology and Transfusion Medicine, University Hospital Greifswald, Germany"

I can't believe you are giving credibility to a media article the contains gross misinterpretation.

 

"by which the AstraZeneca vaccine causes rare but devastating blood clots that gobble up the body's supply of platelets."