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Coronavirus Lab-Leak Theory Gets Another Look


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A scientist adventurer and China’s ‘Bat Woman’ are under scrutiny as coronavirus lab-leak theory gets another look

 

The silencing of scientists, the blanket denials, the careful guarding of raw data and biological samples — these elements have been emblematic of the approach by Chinese authorities at every stage of the coronavirus outbreak. And they continue to obstruct the world’s ability to get answers.


There is no direct evidence linking Tian’s team, or a rival group of bat-disease specialists at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, to the coronavirus outbreak. Nor is there more than circumstantial evidence to support any theory of the pandemic’s origin. [Emphasis added] Many scientists say the most likely path is that the virus spread in nature and jumped from animals to humans. But that belief is largely based on how other coronaviruses have originated, not what is known about this case.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/coronavirus-bats-china-wuhan/2021/06/02/772ef984-beb2-11eb-922a-c40c9774bc48_story.html

 

Edited by Pattaya Spotter
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Any virologist or epidemiologist will tell you that the most important thing to know about a virus in order to prevent a similar event from happening again is knowing it's actual origin.  There is not

To recap, there are 2 options.  1) A bat that lives over 1,000km away in a cave - which just happened to be carrying a very peculiar strain of coronavirus with traits that appear non-natural gets

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Luc Montagnier said it straight away and was treated like a fool, even by someone who can't even join his thumb and forefinger.

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The Groupthink That Produced the Lab-Leak Failure Should Scare Liberals

 

As we sift through the lab-leak debacle, the good news is that the healthy antibodies in the system are still strong enough to overcome the groupthink that produced the original error. News media are investigating a hypothesis they once dismissed, and the government has announced an investigation to find the truth. The bad news is that the problem is turning out to be worse than it initially seemed — and worse still, the source of the failure is not going away. The implications of this episode are much broader than understanding the source of the pandemic. It is a question about whether institutions like the media and government can withstand the pressure of ideological conformity.

 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/lab-leak-hypothesis-covid-liberal-media-science-biden-trump-china.html

 

I would say no.

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On 6/4/2021 at 10:25 AM, zhounan said:

Luc Montagnier said it straight away and was treated like a fool, even by someone who can't even join his thumb and forefinger.

1. Who is Luc Montagnier?

 

2. Whom do you mean with "someone who can't even join his thumb and forefinger"?

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The message a year ago from the media was that anyone saying it was a lab leak was barking mistaken, but humble pie may yet have to be eaten in large quantities. The theory being pushed was that it came from a wet market, but that has been questioned now.

I can't get into this any more as it is IMO entirely political.

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On 6/4/2021 at 11:59 PM, Pattaya Spotter said:

The Groupthink That Produced the Lab-Leak Failure Should Scare Liberals

 

As we sift through the lab-leak debacle, the good news is that the healthy antibodies in the system are still strong enough to overcome the groupthink that produced the original error. News media are investigating a hypothesis they once dismissed, and the government has announced an investigation to find the truth. The bad news is that the problem is turning out to be worse than it initially seemed — and worse still, the source of the failure is not going away. The implications of this episode are much broader than understanding the source of the pandemic. It is a question about whether institutions like the media and government can withstand the pressure of ideological conformity.

 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/lab-leak-hypothesis-covid-liberal-media-science-biden-trump-china.html

 

I would say no.

The background to dismissing the lab leak theory is incredibly interesting, but as it is all politically driven it can't be discussed on here.

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It would appear that the  Coronavirus leak may have originated from the Wuhan Institute of Virology (or another Wuhan research facility) with research on Coronaviruses (SARS / MERS ?) being carried out by a Dr. Shi Zheng-li, operating under relaxed conditions (Biohazard level 2 instead of 3) with funding from the US grants funnelled through Dr. Daszak’s EcoHealth Alliance.

The Chinese government has suppressed all records at the Wuhan Institute of Virology and closed down its virus databases.

 

https://nicholaswade.medium.com/origin-of-covid-following-the-clues-6f03564c038

 

 

It should also be noted that there have been ‘other’ leaks from Virological and Biolab research facilities: 

[Quote: smallpox virus escaped three times from labs in England in the 1960’s and 1970’s, causing 80 cases and 3 deaths. Dangerous viruses have leaked out of labs almost every year since. Coming to more recent times, the SARS1 virus has proved a true escape artist, leaking from laboratories in Singapore, Taiwan, and no less than four times from the Chinese National Institute of Virology in Beijing]

 

 

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1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

It would appear that the  Coronavirus leak may have originated from the Wuhan Institute of Virology (or another Wuhan research facility) with research on Coronaviruses (SARS / MERS ?) being carried out by a Dr. Shi Zheng-li, operating under relaxed conditions (Biohazard level 2 instead of 3) with funding from the US grants funnelled through Dr. Daszak’s EcoHealth Alliance.

The Chinese government has suppressed all records at the Wuhan Institute of Virology and closed down its virus databases.

 

https://nicholaswade.medium.com/origin-of-covid-following-the-clues-6f03564c038

 

 

It should also be noted that there have been ‘other’ leaks from Virological and Biolab research facilities: 

[Quote: smallpox virus escaped three times from labs in England in the 1960’s and 1970’s, causing 80 cases and 3 deaths. Dangerous viruses have leaked out of labs almost every year since. Coming to more recent times, the SARS1 virus has proved a true escape artist, leaking from laboratories in Singapore, Taiwan, and no less than four times from the Chinese National Institute of Virology in Beijing]

 

 

This Medium article by Nicholas Wade was posted over a week ago and discussed extensively here:

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

This Medium article by Nicholas Wade was posted over a week ago and discussed extensively here:

 

 

 

 

Its probably been posted a few times.....   its a good article. 

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Posted (edited)

These two scientists argue the virus originated in nature and jumped to humans.

 

We may never know where the virus came from. But evidence still suggests nature.

 

From the moment the novel coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2, emerged in Wuhan, China, scientists and the broader public have sought answers to some fundamental questions: Where did this virus come from? How did the pandemic start? From the early days, experts have considered two possibilities. Either the virus somehow escaped from a laboratory, perhaps the Wuhan Institute of Virology, or, like countless viruses throughout history, it arrived through zoonotic spillover, jumping from animals to humans. More than a year later, we still don’t know exactly what happened. Though governments and news organizations have focused more attention recently on the notion that the virus leaked from a lab, it’s unclear that we’ll ever identify a theory that satisfies everyone as to how SARS-CoV-2 emerged. Ironically, given the recent prominence of the lab escape theory, the questions the world wants answered about the virus — and the astonishingly fast development of the vaccines that can quash the pandemic — depend entirely on research conducted in labs like the Wuhan Institute of Virology and across the world over the past several decades. This fundamental research underpins our ability to prepare for and respond to pandemics. We need to know what’s out there and what kind of viral threats we face. The only way to do that is to go where the viruses are, with our colleagues who are already there.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/virus-origins-nature-lab/2021/06/03/dd50eb62-c4a9-11eb-93f5-ee9558eecf4b_story.html

 

Edited by Pattaya Spotter
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Posted (edited)
On 6/6/2021 at 2:06 PM, richard_smith237 said:

 

It would appear that the  Coronavirus leak may have originated from the Wuhan Institute of Virology (or another Wuhan research facility) with research on Coronaviruses (SARS / MERS ?) being carried out by a Dr. Shi Zheng-li, operating under relaxed conditions (Biohazard level 2 instead of 3) with funding from the US grants funnelled through Dr. Daszak’s EcoHealth Alliance.

The Chinese government has suppressed all records at the Wuhan Institute of Virology and closed down its virus databases.

 

https://nicholaswade.medium.com/origin-of-covid-following-the-clues-6f03564c038

 

 

It should also be noted that there have been ‘other’ leaks from Virological and Biolab research facilities: 

[Quote: smallpox virus escaped three times from labs in England in the 1960’s and 1970’s, causing 80 cases and 3 deaths. Dangerous viruses have leaked out of labs almost every year since. Coming to more recent times, the SARS1 virus has proved a true escape artist, leaking from laboratories in Singapore, Taiwan, and no less than four times from the Chinese National Institute of Virology in Beijing]

 

 

He doesn't seem to be a very credible author.  He's for sure not a scientist. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Wade

 

Wade juxtaposes an incomplete and inaccurate account of our research on human genetic differences with speculation that recent natural selection has led to worldwide differences in I.Q. test results, political institutions and economic development. We reject Wade's implication that our findings substantiate his guesswork. They do not.

We are in full agreement that there is no support from the field of population genetics for Wade's conjectures.

Edited by Jeffr2
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A 2020 U.S. report concluded Covid-19 may have leaked from Wuhan lab

 

A report on the origins of Covid-19 by a U.S. government national laboratory concluded the hypothesis claiming the virus leaked from a Chinese lab in Wuhan is plausible, The Wall Street Journal reported on Monday.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/07/a-2020-us-report-concluded-covid-19-may-have-leaked-from-wuhan-lab-wsj-reports.html

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2 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

I think the science based evidence of a possible lab leak in Wuhan is very compelling but I'm keeping my mouth shut now since I was harshly criticized, my posts were deleted and then I was temporarily banned as a "conspiracy theorist" for even considering this possibility last March.

 

The truth is hard to hide though, so I'm sure we'll find out the real facts sooner or later.

Don't feel bad because you're in good company... many scientists, politicians, media outlets, and social media companies have a lot of egg on their faces for letting their political biases interfere with their reporting and discussion of the "lab leak" hypothesis. 

 

We have now had three outbreaks of deadly human coronaviruses in the past 20 years...2 of them were zoonotic and 1 still to be determined. So the suggestion of another natural jump from an animal host is suggestive given this history, but much more work has to be done to confirm this.

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The media called the ‘lab leak’ story a ‘conspiracy theory.’ Now it’s prompted corrections


Early last year, New York Times science writer Donald G. McNeil Jr. reported on a controversial theory about the coronavirus that had begun to sweep around the planet — that it may have started in a laboratory in Wuhan, China, not as a random and naturally occurring pathogen. The “lab leak” theory challenged the semiofficial thesis that the virus had jumped from an infected animal to a human in a food market in Wuhan. Allies of President Donald Trump had pushed the theory, casting doubt on statements by officials of China’s ruling Communist Party. Yet the Times never ended up publishing McNeil’s 4,000-word story...

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/media/the-media-called-the-lab-leak-story-a-conspiracy-theory-now-its-prompted-corrections--and-serious-new-reporting/2021/06/10/c93972e6-c7b2-11eb-a11b-6c6191ccd599_story.html

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43 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

The media called the ‘lab leak’ story a ‘conspiracy theory.’ Now it’s prompted corrections


Early last year, New York Times science writer Donald G. McNeil Jr. reported on a controversial theory about the coronavirus that had begun to sweep around the planet — that it may have started in a laboratory in Wuhan, China, not as a random and naturally occurring pathogen. The “lab leak” theory challenged the semiofficial thesis that the virus had jumped from an infected animal to a human in a food market in Wuhan. Allies of President Donald Trump had pushed the theory, casting doubt on statements by officials of China’s ruling Communist Party. Yet the Times never ended up publishing McNeil’s 4,000-word story...

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/media/the-media-called-the-lab-leak-story-a-conspiracy-theory-now-its-prompted-corrections--and-serious-new-reporting/2021/06/10/c93972e6-c7b2-11eb-a11b-6c6191ccd599_story.html

The media didn't call it a conspiracy theory, a vast majority of credible scientists did!  Sad some fall for this.

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29 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

The media didn't call it a conspiracy theory, a vast majority of credible scientists did!  Sad some fall for this.

No offense intended but that not even close to true.  The media not only failed to report credible sources who cast doubt on the virus being a zoonotic crossover to humans and origin being the wet market, but actually banned such sources from posting on social media.

 

As for the so-called "credible" scientists you mentioned, many of them are now being implicated in questionable American NIH funding to the Wuhan lab; funds that it turns out were being used for gain-of-function research just at the time this virus emerged!

 

So naturally it isn't a surprise they would be making statements to draw attention away from the lab being a likely source. 

 

This funding is very well documented BTW, and the fear of it becoming public has been expressed in a lot of emails from Dr. Fauci that were recently released through the Freedom-of-Information Act, so that's about as credible as it gets.

 

Furthermore, it was well documented early on that "suspicious" cases of pneumonia were being reported in Wuhan hospitals as early as November, 2019 which is well before the wet market stories began to emerge, and many of those cases were people who worked at the Lab. 

 

These reports were from Chinese researchers and journalists, who only days later were either heavily sanctioned for their remarks, or simply disappeared to never be heard from again!

 

There are renowned experts in epidemiology who have determined that the certain parts of virus' genome sequence could not have occurred naturally and almost exactly mimic those that would result from man-made manipulations that are seen in other documented gain-in-function studies.

 

I'm not saying that it certainly came from the lab, but there is so much credible evidence emerging in favor of that and at the same time against the wet market theory that it can't be discredited as mere conspiracy theory any longer.

Edited by WaveHunter
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What credible scientists are you talking about with ties to the lab?  If it's Faucci, that's been debunked.  Many times.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/27/health/wuhan-coronavirus-lab-leak.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage&section=Science

 

Scientists Don’t Want to Ignore the ‘Lab Leak’ Theory, Despite No New Evidence

Many scientists welcomed President Biden’s call for a more rigorous investigation of a virus lab in Wuhan, China, though they said the so-called lab leak theory was still unlikely.

Virologists still largely lean toward the theory that infected animals — perhaps a bat, or another animal raised for food — spread the virus to humans outside of a lab. There is no direct evidence for the “lab leak” theory that Chinese researchers isolated the virus, which then infected a lab worker.

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This sums it up quite well.  The origins need to be determined.  But as they say, since China won't cooperate, we'll probably never know.  But the consensus is it came from nature.  But that can't be proven.  And may never be proven.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/05/24/fauci-not-convinced-covid-19-coronavirus-developed-naturally-sot-vpx-newday.cnn

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11 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

This sums it up quite well.  The origins need to be determined.  But as they say, since China won't cooperate, we'll probably never know.  But the consensus is it came from nature.  But that can't be proven.  And may never be proven.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/05/24/fauci-not-convinced-covid-19-coronavirus-developed-naturally-sot-vpx-newday.cnn

It's funny that you are quoting from two of the most questionable sources of fair and balanced journalism, The New York Times, and CNN.  They have both demonstrated a clear political bias in almost everything they publish, and a complete departure from the values of legitimate journalism.

 

How about getting information objectively through peer-reviewed medical and scientific journals?  Or listen to unbiased journalists who report from outside the US political mainstream and from other countries.  You will get a completely different take on all of this if you do.

Edited by WaveHunter
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26 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

It's funny that you are quoting from two of the most questionable sources of fair and balanced journalism, The New York Times, and CNN.  They have both demonstrated a clear political bias in almost everything they publish, and a complete departure from the values of legitimate journalism.

 

How about getting information objectively through peer-reviewed medical and scientific journals?  Or listen to unbiased journalists who report from outside the US political mainstream and from other countries.  You will get a completely different take on all of this if you do.

CNN perhaps, but anyone who questions one of the most rewarded media outlets loses credibility.  The NY Times is fantastic.  And some research from CNN is good also.

 

I do look at scientific journals.  Many.

 

Give me a link to an article that proves this virus is from the lab.  Please.  But credible sources only, please.

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33 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Look, I'm not going to get into a pointless debate about this.  In time, the real truth will emerge.  I'm only saying there is a lot of credible evidence to consider...if you are an objective and unbiased person who thinks independently instead of just accepting whatever you hear in the media.

 

And BTW, Fauci has only been debunked by organizations and people with a clear political bias, so in fact he has not been debunked at all; only supported by those who have a vested interest in him not going down.  I mean how can you debunk the incriminating words of the man's own emails?

 

His involvement has not been debunked at all, and neither have those other American scientists and organizations who are beginning to emerge in the investigations into funding gain-of-function research at the Wuhan lab.

 

I'm not trying to say any of this was done with evil intent by Fauci or others, but it was definitely negligent to not know where that money was actually going...especially if it is determined that a lab leak was actually the source of the virus.

 

There is a lot of truth that will emerge over time, with or without the help of the Chinese, and some of it is probably going to paint a dark picture of US involvement unfortunately.

 

 

 

Again, ya lose credibility by bashing Fauci.  Again, show a credible link regarding his involvement with the lab.

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35 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

It's funny that you are quoting from two of the most questionable sources of fair and balanced journalism, The New York Times, and CNN.  They have both demonstrated a clear political bias in almost everything they publish, and a complete departure from the values of legitimate journalism.

This may help you ....... https://library.fvtc.edu/News/BiasCheck

 

Well what is known is that this type of virus, and others, can reside in the likes of bats, so it either originated from that source or escaped from the lab, so now we know this, we can guard against it in future!! 

On 6/9/2021 at 6:00 PM, WaveHunter said:

I mean, how on earth can we understand what really happened and prevent it from happening again, unless we really know the origin?

And for the record, this may be something we have to live with?

 

11 (sometimes) deadly diseases that hopped across species

https://www.livescience.com/12951-10-infectious-diseases-ebola-plague-influenza.html 

Edited by xylophone
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1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

Look, I'm not going to get into a pointless debate about this.  In time, the real truth will emerge.  I'm only saying there is a lot of credible evidence to consider...if you are an objective and unbiased person who thinks independently instead of just accepting whatever you hear in the media.

 

And BTW, Fauci has only been debunked by organizations and people with a clear political bias, so in fact he has not been debunked at all; only supported by those who have a vested interest in him not going down.  I mean how can you debunk the incriminating words of the man's own emails?

 

His involvement has not been debunked at all, and neither have those other American scientists and organizations who are beginning to emerge in the investigations into funding gain-of-function research at the Wuhan lab.

 

I'm not trying to say any of this was done with evil intent by Fauci or others, but it was definitely negligent to not know where that money was actually going...especially if it is determined that a lab leak was actually the source of the virus.

 

There is a lot of truth that will emerge over time, with or without the help of the Chinese, and some of it is probably going to paint a dark picture of US involvement unfortunately.

 

 

 

I wouldn't waste my time in replies to some of our esteemed fellow board members as it's clear they have a political agenda. I mean, they probably credit the current administration with the record discovery and rollout of the game changing mRNA vaccines. I agree with you that there is likely no evil intent on the scientists who were downplaying the possibility of a "lab leak," but their professional associations, current research, and future grant proposals were dependent on continued funding of "gain of function" and other coronavirus research so they naturally didn't want the public to gain a negative opinion of such research, nor for this worldwide pandemic to be associated with it.

Edited by Pattaya Spotter
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1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

Again, ya lose credibility by bashing Fauci.  Again, show a credible link regarding his involvement with the lab.

SORRY THIS TURNED OUT TO BE A LONG REPLY...I hope you actually read it in its' entirety.

 

In response to your last several post, it's really not my responsibility to dig up references to information I have read or heard to prove my points. 

 

I don't even expect you to take my word for anything I've said.  I'm only saying that you can not know the truth simply from a single source, or multiple sources with a common bias.

 

I form the opinions that i share herre on this forum as a result of hearing or reading dozens of medical / science journals and watching numerous newscasts & interview type shows from all around the world.  I constantly have the TV on listening for new content as I do my work, so I really do not bookmark all of that simply to prove my points here on this forum.

 

I often don't remember who said what, but over time I form an opinion that's based on examining all different views.  I listen to what's said on CNN just as seriously as what I hear on Fox News, but neither of them are a sole basis for forming an opinion.  I always feel like you have to dig a lot deeper than that.

 

Perhaps this is a perverse hobby for me, but being as well informed as possible is just something I enjoy doing, and I take it pretty seriously.

 

All I'm saying is a person has to do some serious due diligence on their own, from a variety of unbiased and credible sources, and when you do that, you end up with a completely different perspective than if you only listen to CNN or only listen to Fox News.  Unfortunately, most people only get their news from one single source, and that's why people's view become so strongly polarized along political lines.

 

As for the NYT, it used to be my favorite source of news when I was growing up.  Before the internet, I had a subscription and read it cover to cover every single day, and with the Sunday edition, it was a day long treat just to go through it all, section by section.  At that time, It truly lived up to its' slogan, "All the news that's fit to print"

 

Unfortunately today it has lost much of its' journalistic integrity and become very politically biased, and much more of a sensationalistic type publication, printing whatever will "hook" the reader's attention.

 

However, and very surprisingly, there was an article that appeared in the NYT itself on March 24 that was very telling.  It surprised me becuase, as the NYT said, the story they were reporting on was like "...holding up a mirror to our work and giving us a chance to do better..."  THAT, to me was a pretty unusual thing for the NYT to say, and to print an article that was critical of U.S.  Media was even more of a shock. 

 

In my opinion it happens to be an outstanding article written by the New York TImes about an even more outstanding research study!

 

The New York Times article was titled:
Bad News Bias:  The U.S. media is offering a different picture of Covid-19 from science journals or the international media, a study finds.

 

The key remark in that article for me was this one:

  • The researchers say they are not sure what explains their findings, but they do have a leading contender: The U.S. media is giving the audience what it wants.

Everyone should read this article simply becuase it is a remarkably unbiased assessment of how Covid-19 has been reported by mainstream media during the last year, and it is written by a publication that would be least expected to release such a story.  It is an excellent read! 

 

For me, that is the main problem with journalism today.  Publications like the NYT and CNN, Fox, and most of the mainstream media are no longer focused on delivering legitimate journalism so that people can think for themselves and form their own opinions.

 

Instead they simply deliver news story that they know will "hook" their audience.  They do it by delivering sensationalism, not by delivering the news.  And often there are powerful interest in the shadows, dictating what stories should be told, and which should not.

 

Journalism is no longer the "Fourth Estate" that is so important as a means to hold government and large corporations accountable.  It has become just a purely commercial enterprise and often a propaganda tool for powerful interests

 

Edited by WaveHunter
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56 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

I wouldn't waste my time in replies to some of our esteemed fellow board members as it's clear they have a political agenda. I mean, they probably credit the current administration with the record discovery and rollout of the game changing mRNA vaccines. I agree with you that there is likely no evil intent on the scientists who were downplaying the possibility of a "lab leak," but their professional associations, current research, and future grant proposals were dependent on continued funding of "gain of function" and other coronavirus research so they naturally didn't want the public to gain a negative opinion of such research, nor for this worldwide pandemic to be associated with it.

Well everybody is entitled to their opinion.  I love debating with people whose opinion is different than mine, as long as arguments are without undue bias, remains civil and don't get personal or devolve into a lame pissing match. 

 

Good debating is a great way to explore different perspectives and sometimes even change your own view on things.  It doesn't happen that often on an open forum like this, but when it does, it can be pretty rewarding for both parties. 

 

I have a lot of friends on this forum now, that formerly were bitter adversaries that engaged in heated debate with me, but it always was about the topic being discussed, nothing personal.

 

And during our quasi-lockdown, it can be kind of a stimulating way to spend part of your day 🙂

 

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