Elderly expats dazed and confused over insurance, ‘retirement visas’ and COVID

[webfact]

Image composite for reference only

 

By Jonathan Fairfield

 

A new policy concerning insurance for so called ‘retirement visas’, as well as the requirements needed for anyone entering Thailand have sparked concern, confusion and even panic amongst elderly expats.

 

A recent article by the Pattaya Mail revealed how some older expats now felt “trapped” in Thailand due to new rules recently rolled out by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

 

The new rules which are in accordance with the Thailand Pass system, launched on November 1, state that foreigners who enter Thailand need to provide health insurance with a minimum treatment coverage of 50,000 USD or equivalent in any other currencies.

 

The concerns raised by the expats who spoke to the Pattaya Mail are that if they were to leave Thailand and visit their home country, they would have difficulty meeting the insurance requirements needed for them to re-enter the country. 

 

The concern mainly comes from elderly expats who due to their age or having pre-existing health conditions means that obtaining insurance is at best expensive or at worst impossible. 

 

For others, they simply can not afford to purchase the insurance one currently needs to visit Thailand.

 

Pattaya Mail’s article raises some valid points, particularly for elderly expats who wish to return home to visit friends and relatives, which for many has not been possible for almost two years.

 

However, a short time after the article was published online, a thread started on ASEAN NOW, the comments of which highlighted the confusion among some expats regarding a number of issues related to insurance for so-called ‘retirement visas’ and the current requirements for people wishing to enter Thailand.

 

Non-Immigrant “O-A” visa vs Non Immigrant O extension

 

The confusion is predominantly caused by a separate change to the policy for anyone wishing to apply for a Non-Immigrant “O-A” visa.

 

Non-Immigrant “O-A” visas are available to people aged over 50 who wish to stay in Thailand for 1 year. 

 

Since October 1, applicants are required to have health insurance which offers minimum coverage up to 3 million baht for inpatient care.

 

However, it is important to note that this requirement only applies to O-A visas.

 

Most expats in Thailand will have a Non Immigrant O extension, which is normally based on ‘retirement’, which is granted to those aged over 50.

 

One of the main differences between an O-A visa and Non-Imm O extension is that Non Immigrant O extensions are obtained from an immigration office within Thailand.

 

A Non-Immigrant “O-A” Visa is obtained by applying at a Thai embassy or consulate overseas.

 

However, confusion occurs as both the Non Immigrant O and Non-Immigrant “O-A” are often and incorrectly referred to as ‘retirement visas’ – which is used as a kind of catch-all term for both, by everyone from expats to immigration officials themselves.

 

But when a change in policy specifically applies to one and not the other it is important that people understand the differences between the two. 

 

There is currently no requirement for anyone on a Non Immigrant O extension to have health insurance - apart from if they wish to re-enter Thailand, which is a requirement for all foreigners, regardless of their visa status. 

 

However, those with a work permit can show a valid social security card or certified letter from their employer.

 

Whether the requirement will be introduced at some point in the future is impossible to say and any mention of such is pure speculation at this stage.

 

Thailand Pass and insurance

 

What is also not known is how long the Thailand Pass system - and consequently - the mandatory insurance for foreigners entering Thailand will be required.

While the Thai authorities have previously revealed the issue that unpaid medical bills from uninsured foreign tourists have on the Thai health care system (and state coffers), if the current insurance requirement was to be implemented long term it could potentially put off millions of foereign tourists from visiting Thailand altogether.

 

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[hereforgood]

Only OA for now anyway

[mokwit]

No country for old men.

[NE1]

13 minutes ago, webfact said:

 

By Jonathan Fairfield

 

A new policy concerning insurance for so called ‘retirement visas’, as well as the requirements needed for anyone entering Thailand have sparked concern, confusion and even panic amongst elderly expats.

 

A recent article by the Pattaya Mail revealed how some older expats now felt “trapped” in Thailand due to new rules recently rolled out by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

 

The new rules which are in accordance with the Thailand Pass system, launched on November 1, state that foreigners who enter Thailand need to provide health insurance with a minimum treatment coverage of 50,000 USD or equivalent in any other currencies.

 

The concerns raised by the expats who spoke to the Pattaya Mail are that if they were to leave Thailand and visit their home country, they would have difficulty meeting the insurance requirements needed for them to re-enter the country. 

 

The concern mainly comes from elderly expats who due to their age or having pre-existing health conditions means that obtaining insurance is at best expensive or at worst impossible. 

 

For others, they simply can not afford to purchase the insurance one currently needs to visit Thailand.

 

Pattaya Mail’s article raises some valid points, particularly for elderly expats who wish to return home to visit friends and relatives, which for many has not been possible for almost two years.

 

However, a short time after the article was published online, a thread started on ASEAN NOW, the comments of which highlighted the confusion among some expats regarding a number of issues related to insurance for so-called ‘retirement visas’ and the current requirements for people wishing to enter Thailand.

 

Non-Immigrant “O-A” visa vs Non Immigrant O extension

 

The confusion is predominantly caused by a separate change to the policy for anyone wishing to apply for a Non-Immigrant “O-A” visa.

 

Non-Immigrant “O-A” visas are available to people aged over 50 who wish to stay in Thailand for 1 year. 

 

Since October 1, applicants are required to have health insurance which offers minimum coverage up to 3 million baht for inpatient care.

 

However, it is important to note that this requirement only applies to O-A visas.

 

[pookiki]

As it stands now, all persons entering Thailand (except those with work permits with medical insurance under the Thai healthcare system), must have health insurance with a minimum of US$50,000.00 coverage that includes treatment for COVID. This is less than the 'new' requirement for O-A visa holders that will require US$100,000 medical insurance that includes treatment for COVID. Currently, expats on O visas are not required to have any insurance.  Frankly I don't see how those on O visas will be allowed to continue with no insurance but one never knows for sure.  For sure, the system needs to be overhauled and certainly some elderly people are 'trapped' in having to meet the new insurance requirements if they leave Thailand and then return as they have in the past.  I don't see a resolution to this problem soon.

[Guderian]

32 minutes ago, webfact said:

There is currently no requirement for anyone on a Non Immigrant O extension to have health insurance - apart from if they wish to re-enter Thailand, which is a requirement for all foreigners, regardless of their visa status. 

I'm still confused.

 

Does "health insurance" in this sentence, for Non-O holders wishing to travel back to Thailand, nothing to do with OA, mean the $50K Covid insurance needed for the Thailand pass, or is there another new requirement for them to also have a certain level of general medical insurance as well?

Edited November 5, 2021 by Guderian

[Bluespunk]

35 minutes ago, webfact said:

There is currently no requirement for anyone on a Non Immigrant O extension to have health insurance - apart from if they wish to re-enter Thailand, which is a requirement for all foreigners, regardless of their visa status. 

Erm…isn’t that what the expats mentioned in the story are concerned about?

 

”The concerns raised by the expats who spoke to the Pattaya Mail are that if they were to leave Thailand and visit their home country, they would have difficulty meeting the insurance requirements needed for them to re-enter the country.”

Edited November 5, 2021 by Bluespunk

[John Drake]

32 minutes ago, webfact said:

While the Thai authorities have previously revealed the issue that unpaid medical bills from uninsured foreign tourists have on the Thai health care system (and state coffers), if the current insurance requirement was to be implemented long term it could potentially put off millions of foereign tourists from visiting Thailand altogether

I thought they just added another 500 baht fee to air arrivals to take care of this "problem." But they want the scam insurance piled on top of it for Thailand Pass?  Worthless insurance with numerous exclusions and high premiums that will go to the ends of the earth to prevent paying out.

[NE1]

22 minutes ago, NE1 said:

Non-Immigrant “O-A” visa vs Non Immigrant O extension

 

The confusion is predominantly caused by a separate change to the policy for anyone wishing to apply for a Non-Immigrant “O-A” visa.

 

Non-Immigrant “O-A” visas are available to people aged over 50 who wish to stay in Thailand for 1 year. 

 

Since October 1, applicants are required to have health insurance which offers minimum coverage up to 3 million baht for inpatient care.

 

However, it is important to note that this requirement only applies to O-A visas.

This is the latest post on here from WebFact this morning.

 

[Orinoco]

Thailand is slowly slamming the door shut for the  retirement community.

Get out old Falang unless you have big money !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The writing has been on the wall for some time now.

TIT.

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Orinoco

[finnsk]

I do not believe there is many western visa holders who is leaving the country with unpaid hospital bills.

I do believe there is a lot of Myanmar, Laos illegal workers who can not pay their hospital bills.

But in thai logic we/they are all tourists, so now the retirement people must pay for the illegal workers.

 

In my mind the thai society could/should make a fair health care tax for retirement people to enter at the public hospital system on the same conditions as the thai people

[JohnOFphon]

I'm here on Non O A and have bought that wonderful  (Not) insurance from LMG.

7000 a year..

If I go out with a re-entry permit does that insurance meet the needs when I return?

My current permisson to stay expires in 7 months. If LMG is as worthless as I believe...I would have to buy 7 or so months of travel insurance., or come back Visa exempt. Then convert to Non O.

Hate to lose the 7 months I have left now..

[HeijoshinCool]

.

 

So, those on non-imm O retirement extension already in the country will be grandfathered in (if they do not leave and come back)?

 

 

[Orinoco]

10 minutes ago, finnsk said:

In my mind the thai society could/should make a fair health care tax for retirement people to enter at the public hospital system on the same conditions as the thai people

They could do that. but won't ever do it.

But the truth is they don't want you anymore in there country

Deep down they despise you, and have a deep seated jealousy of the

money you have. ( as we never worked hard for it )

TIT.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Orinoco

[Live Long and Prosper]

There country there laws, what does an alien have to have, to go and stay long term in the country of your passport? Should we start there saying how unfair it is?

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, HeijoshinCool said:

.

 

So, those on non-imm O retirement extension already in the country will be grandfathered in (if they do not leave and come back)?

 

 

Yes that is the CURRENT policy.

[tomacht8]

While the Thai authorities have previously revealed the issue that unpaid medical bills from uninsured foreign tourists have on the Thai health care system (and state coffers),

 

If I remember correctly, that was a ridiculous 300 million baht a year in unpaid hospital bills from foreigners.

 

Most of them were accidents on uninsured scooters. If Thailand were to ensure that all motorcycle rental companies take out reasonable accident insurance for their rental motorcycles, the problem would not even exist.

 

Almost all tourists have travel insurance, which is usually not expensive.

 

Furthermore, the pensioners have to keep 800,000 baht here for a long time, so that hospital bills can also be paid here.

 

And if the hospitals would not charge 2-3 times as much for sick foreigners, the problem of the unpaid bill would be nothing more than a fly poo.

 

It is obvious to me that the Thai hospitals are trying to rehabilitate themselves through sick foreigners.

Edited November 5, 2021 by tomacht8

[finnsk]

4 minutes ago, Orinoco said:

They could do that.

But the truth is they don't want you anymore in there country

 

 

 

Yes I agree with you. The way they handling the issue is quite clear, they just want to make it more difficult for normal retires to retire in LOS. They do not have any empathy for retires who have maked their life here on normal pensions and have believed in LOS and used their money here.

 

[mokwit]

10 minutes ago, finnsk said:

I do not believe there is many western visa holders who is leaving the country with unpaid hospital bills.

Apparently the main causes of people seeking hospital treatment are motorcycle accidents and dog bites. Motorcycle accidents is more likely to be two week tourists.

 

I'm reaching tipping point with the one sidedness and inequity in everything in Thailand and while it has always been the reality, it is getting worse under the army base wallahs.

[Chad3000]

57 minutes ago, webfact said:

However, those with a work permit can show a valid social security card or certified letter from their employer.

What is this???

Out of the blue.

 

58 minutes ago, webfact said:

currently no requirement for anyone on a Non Immigrant O extension to have health insurance - apart from if they wish to re-enter Thailand, which is a requirement for all foreigners, regardless of their visa status. 

This is a bit disingenuous because de facto you must have insurance. Period. It's not ....not a requirement BUT it's a requirement.

[The Fugitive]

8 minutes ago, finnsk said:

I do not believe there is many western visa holders who is leaving the country with unpaid hospital bills.

I do believe there is a lot of Myanmar, Laos illegal workers who can not pay their hospital bills.

But in thai logic we/they are all tourists, so now the retirement people must pay for the illegal workers.

 

In my mind the thai society could/should make a fair health care tax for retirement people to enter at the public hospital system on the same conditions as the thai people

Do you remember a few months back there was an article about Thai mortuaries being rammed full of farang cadavers nobody claims. I have read that after 30 days unclaimed corpses receive a mass pauper's cremation, the cost of which plus storage expenses, transport, handling and administration is borne by the Thai Government. 

[mokwit]

8 minutes ago, Live Long and Prosper said:

There country there laws, what does an alien have to have, to go and stay long term in the country of your passport? Should we start there saying how unfair it is?

Yes, but let's make it reciprocal - no going to other countries to have your baby so that they have citizenship automatically of that country and no land ownership (pretty much every elite Thai has their London property).

[Chad3000]

Unpaid medical is a total red herring to be polite. We all know this. Most hospitals will literally escort you to ATM before discharge. No joke.

[lexilis]

1 minute ago, Chad3000 said:

However, those with a work permit can show a valid social security card or certified letter from their employer.

I have a valid Thai Social Security card and am on O retirement extensions. Don't need WP or letter.

[Chad3000]

2 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

Thai mortuaries being rammed full of farang cadavers nobody claims

This is taken up by Buddhist organizations. Such a cremation is not expensive and is part of many monks duties.

 

Red herring

[Enzian]

8 minutes ago, HeijoshinCool said:

.

 

So, those on non-imm O retirement extension already in the country will be grandfathered in (if they do not leave and come back)?

 

 

I think what's being missed is that Non-O persons re-entering the country only need insurance for the period of stay they are stamped in for.    eg, I, a non-O holder, return on Dec. 7 and the IO looks at my PP and sees that my re-entry permit expires 14 days later on Dec. 20; she stamps me in to Dec. 20. The fact that I will stay much longer doesn't matter. I only need to buy 30 days of the required insurance. When that runs out I don't have to renew, Im back like I was way back, essentially self-insured.

[Orinoco]

3 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

Do you remember a few months back there was an article about Thai mortuaries being rammed full of farang cadavers nobody claims. I have read that after 30 days unclaimed corpses receive a mass pauper's cremation, the cost of which plus storage expenses, transport, handling and administration is borne by the Thai Government. 

And that cost is nothing in comparison as to the revenue Thailand used to get from tourism

Everything has a cost.

[ezzra]

OH Thailand Thailand, What on earth are you doing? is this how you want to bring tourists in to fill you empty coffers again? remember the says when 40 million tourists used to come visit you every year?

you think you'll ever go back to those numbers? NOT on your life with the silly confusing ways we keep getting from you every day.. Oh Thailand...

Edited November 5, 2021 by ezzra

[bdenner]

This still doesn't answer my question.

Hypothetical:-

I renew my 'O' Visa extension for another year on Dec 1, 2021.

I visit my home country in Jan 2022 for a month with a Re-entry Permit for my return.

Do I buy $50K worth(less) of insurance to cover me for 10 months to 2 Dec, 2022 (Re-entry Permit & Extension expiry)? Or be honest with them as I actually do not intend to travel again for at least another year beyond that. Which really means I don't know how long I will be in country. BUT I assume one has to be covered for the length of their current extension??

 

Currently I have no intention or need to travel until these slow learners stop confusing me.

 

[brewsterbudgen]

13 minutes ago, ezzra said:

OH Thailand Thailand, What on earth are you doing? is this how you want to bring tourists in to fill you empty coffers again? remember the says when 40 million tourists used to come visit you every year?

you think you'll ever go back to those numbers? NOT on your life with the silly confusing ways we keep getting from you every day.. Oh Thailand...

This thread is about retirees not tourists.