ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[transam]

28 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

1969 Mach 1 351 Cleveland - about 5.7 litres.

Had to leave it in England when I came here.

My pickup is not so meaty.

 

Sorry, but I think that would get trounced by many EV's.....????

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Certainly not happening anytime soon, but interesting concept.   Think they'll develop better 'solar cells' that exist now for cars, than waste time on solar paint.

 

"Solar painted vehicles. With some tweaks, solar paint could be a great way to add solar-generating capacity to vehicles."

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/solar-paint-hydrogen-quantum-dot-perovskite-solar-cells

Fully solar cars have been around for over thirty years. 

[JetsetBkk]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

Sorry, but I think that would get trounced by many EV's.....????

It was even "trounced" by my other car which wasn't a 2 ton chunk of metal:

 

But I still wouldn't get an EV. ????

 

[Yellowtail]

What I find amusing it that governments and EV fanboys promote EVs as being "green", yet they burn oil and gas for heat, and use their electricity to charge batteries for their cars. 

 

Would it not make more sense to convert oil-burners to heat-pumps and use the oil to run cars? 

 

Is less CO2 generated using oil/gas-heat for 8-24 hours than is generated driving to work and back?  

[JetsetBkk]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

What I find amusing it that governments and EV fanboys promote EVs as being "green", yet they burn oil and gas for heat, and use their electricity to charge batteries for their cars. 

 

Would it not make more sense to convert oil-burners to heat-pumps and use the oil to run cars? 

 

Is less CO2 generated using oil/gas-heat for 8-24 hours than is generated driving to work and back?  

This is what I like:  https://bit.ly/3OVZK1Q

 

 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, SomchaiDIY said:

Many station with fast charge need secondary sub station if power company check can allow

 

Many maker talk big fast charge idea but in real world maybe not easy

 

Best wait for new tech idea to arrive in real world use before using for argument

 

 

Photo secondary sub station type for ev system

 

 

 

 

No, those chargers don't take up any room at all, you just plug them in to the little hole in the wall! 

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

This is what I like:  https://bit.ly/3OVZK1Q

 

 

Never a fan of the pony-cars. 

 

I have a buddy in SoCal that bought an original, complete  '66 GT500 for $1,400 around 1974.

 

I thought he got stung. He still has it, and it's still original except he painted it.  

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Do condos provide gasoline/petrol for those who own autos? How do urban dwellers who own an auto connect their car to fuel?

And, of course, there's a lot lower rate of car ownership in urban areas than there is in the boonies.

 

If your living in a condo and your vehicle has run out of fuel most people would go to the nearest garage with a jerry can get some petrol or diesel put in their cars and drive away. What do yo do if you have an electric vehicle.

[SomchaiDIY]

28 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

No, those chargers don't take up any room at all, you just plug them in to the little hole in the wall! 

Or can connect at 5 amp meter then all good for the 2000kw 5 min charge

 

Maybe cook some egg on charge cable while wait

[SomchaiDIY]

16 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

If your living in a condo and your vehicle has run out of fuel most people would go to the nearest garage with a jerry can get some petrol or diesel put in their cars and drive away. What do yo do if you have an electric vehicle.

call ev truck

 

 

[transam]

17 minutes ago, SomchaiDIY said:

call ev truck

 

 

Have they branched out into LOS....?   ????

[Yellowtail]

15 minutes ago, transam said:

Have they branched out into LOS....?   ????

It would be pretty easy to have trucks with big batteries to do emergence quick-charges, or with heavy-duty alternators to do mobile slow-charging. 

[transam]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

It would be pretty easy to have trucks with big batteries to do emergence quick-charges, or with heavy-duty alternators to do mobile slow-charging. 

Indeed, but just imagine the cost of a call-out, well I can imagine what it would be in farangland, an arm and a leg.....????

[placeholder]

19 hours ago, vinny41 said:

If your living in a condo and your vehicle has run out of fuel most people would go to the nearest garage with a jerry can get some petrol or diesel put in their cars and drive away. What do yo do if you have an electric vehicle.

I don't know about you, but if this was a recurring problem in my life, I'd get myself checked out by a neurologist.

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by placeholder

[placeholder]

20 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

What I find amusing it that governments and EV fanboys promote EVs as being "green", yet they burn oil and gas for heat, and use their electricity to charge batteries for their cars. 

 

Would it not make more sense to convert oil-burners to heat-pumps and use the oil to run cars? 

 

Is less CO2 generated using oil/gas-heat for 8-24 hours than is generated driving to work and back?  

As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, and apparently to no avail, most new power plants being built today, are either wind or solar based. In addition, I have repeatedly cited research that shows EV's still save on emissions of greenhouse gases over their lifetimes as compared to ICE vehicles. And since the batteries are largely recyclable for their minerals, as time goes by, their contribution to the amount of greenhouse gases will be less and less.

 

And why exactly do you think there has to be a choice between heat pumps and EVs? Is the manufacturing of EV's getting in the way of the manufacturing of heat pumps?

[placeholder]

19 hours ago, vinny41 said:

If your living in a condo and your vehicle has run out of fuel most people would go to the nearest garage with a jerry can get some petrol or diesel put in their cars and drive away. What do yo do if you have an electric vehicle.

Is this a frequent problem for most automobile owners? If it is, I think they should seek help and not the kind that provides gasoline.

[placeholder]

20 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

No, that's what you (apparently) understood. What I said was, that the vehicle takes of the bulk of the area required to charge or fuel a vehicle, and if it take twenty minutes to charge an EV and five minutes to fuel an ICEV, then it will take much more are to process the same number of EVs as it does ICEVs

 

Are you claiming that is not true? 

 

 

As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, 20 minutes may be the charging times now, but already the biggest battery manufacturer in the world has created a battery with five minutes of charging time. And others have created prototypes with fast charging times, too. 

[placeholder]

20 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Yes, the first phone I bought was about eight dollars, the last one I bought was about $1,600

 

But I never said EV prices will always be too high, again, you made that up. 

So, on the one hand you cite a ridiculous personal example, and not confirmable, that apparently says that as technology advances products become 200 time more expensive.

And then you pivot and claim you never said EV prices will always be too high. From the example you offered, it seems your actually claiming that they will get more expensive.

 

[placeholder]

21 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Batteries don't have range, that's like saying a liter of fuel has range. Vehicles have range, and the range will be dependent on the vehicle and the load. 

Pedantic much? Fine. CATL said its batteries could provide a vehicle with a range of 620 miles and a charging time of 5 minutes.

Edited July 5, 2022 by placeholder

[placeholder]

21 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

In any evert, if five minutes is the charge time, the process time is significantly longer than that. Also, the faster the charge, the greater the power required, and the bigger the substation will be that goes where the tank goes now. 

 

My vehicle takes less than five minutes to fuel and has a range of 800km. 

Did you ever wonder where the transformers are that provide the power for electricity in a shopping mall? On the roof. So, where do think the transformers will go to provide power for chargers? Try putting gasoline tanks on the roof of a building

Superchargers are self service including billing. In fact, a Tesla charger will automatically do the billing, in the cases where there's billing to be done without involving the customer at all, And even if that weren't the case, you think that a couple more minutes would be a significant inconvenience for most people?

 

 

[Yellowtail]

54 minutes ago, placeholder said:

As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, and apparently to no avail, most new power plants being built today, are either wind or solar based.

Yes, because that's what's being mandated. 

 

54 minutes ago, placeholder said:

In addition, I have repeatedly cited research that shows EV's still save on emissions of greenhouse gases over their lifetimes as compared to ICE vehicles. And since the batteries are largely recyclable for their minerals, as time goes by, their contribution to the amount of greenhouse gases will be less and less.

Yes, all those peer review studies Vox does. 

 

54 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And why exactly do you think there has to be a choice between heat pumps and EVs?

It does not need to be a choice, but do you not agree focusing on heating first makes more sense? That was my only point. 

 

54 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Is the manufacturing of EV's getting in the way of the manufacturing of heat pumps?

Yes

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, 20 minutes may be the charging times now, but already the biggest battery manufacturer in the world has created a battery with five minutes of charging time. And others have created prototypes with fast charging times, too. 

So I was right, thanks. 

[KhunLA]

I hope nobody wonders why the 'EV Thailand' thread is heavily moderated.

 

Think someone should start a thread 'fossil vs renewable energy & practical application of'

 

As 'ICE vs EV' is no longer about vehicles, pros or cons of ... ????

 

Parking space, transformers, coal ??? 

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I hope nobody wonders why the 'EV Thailand' thread is heavily moderated.

 

Think someone should start a thread 'fossil vs renewable energy & practical application of'

 

As 'ICE vs EV' is no longer about vehicles, pros or cons of ... ????

 

Parking space, transformers, coal ??? 

You don't think the practicality of ICE vs EV's is relevant?

Maybe you don't care about environmental effects of autos, but it seems to me to be a perfectly legitimate consideration in comparing the 2.

[placeholder]

14 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So I was right, thanks. 

A silly and transparent face saving response.

[Yellowtail]

56 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So, on the one hand you cite a ridiculous personal example, and not confirmable, that apparently says that as technology advances products become 200 time more expensive.

It's ridiculous to claim the first phone I bought costed eight dollars? What do you think a phone costed in 1975? 

 

In any event, I buy my wife pretty much the same new phone every year, and every year it seems to cost significantly more. No, I don't have a peer reviewed study that shows that. 

 

56 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And then you pivot and claim you never said EV prices will always be too high. From the example you offered, it seems your actually claiming that they will get more expensive.

 

I don't think the price is too high now, why result to making things up?

 

It depends how you define expensive. If you're claiming I meant the endgame of the left was to drive the price of EVs up, then no, that not what I meant, although I do think long term the price will likely go up. They are higher now than the were a year ago, yes? 

 

What I meant when I said the endgame of the left was to price the middle class out of owning a vehicle, it has to do with how much of a sacrifice has to be made to own a vehicle, EV or otherwise.

[transam]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Pedantic much? Fine. CATL said its batteries could provide a vehicle with a range of 620 miles and a charging time of 5 minutes.

I thought we were in the present, you know, blokes wiv electric cars that will never get caught out wiv no power, not future "promises".................????

 

Anyhooo...

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/truth-electric-car-range-revealed-123212735.html

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Is this a frequent problem for most automobile owners? If it is, I think they should seek help and not the kind that provides gasoline.

Did I say it was a frequent problem No I didn't but it does occur and  it appears you are unable to provide a sensible solution

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

I don't know about you, but if this was a recurring problem in my life, I'd get myself checked out by a neurologist.

 

Once again It would appear you have no sensible solutions

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You don't think the practicality of ICE vs EV's is relevant?

Maybe you don't care about environmental effects of autos, but it seems to me to be a perfectly legitimate consideration in comparing the 2.

It will always be a never ending debate, which is more practical or eco friendly.

 

Way too many variables especially taking into consideration of location of energy (raw materials) produces and where used.  'Renewable' speaks for itself, but not completely practical in all locations.

 

You can go on & on, as you are, but you'll never agree, especially when the conversation is so generic and not location specific.

 

Just a thought.  But anyone looking for the pros & cons of ICE vs EV, this certainly isn't the thread for it any more.  More about coal mining and where to put them transformers ????