Help with UK Visit Visa refused for Thai national gf - ECO mistakes found - how to mention in re-application?

[Saltwater]

Hi there, hoping this is the right place for advice then, I have omitted any confidential information hopefully.
 

(My ex-gf was accepted twice successfully for a UK Visit Visa before, so I have done this before, successfully).
 

I'm half Thai, with UK + Thai passport (I work in Thailand as a Thai national). My current girlfriend (we live together) from Thailand applied for a UK visit/tourist visa and got refused, 1 reason I agree we need to send evidence, but the others they read the application wrong. Are they rushing because of their backlog???
 

1) In the application she wrote 'Income per year' as £XXXX but they said 'where are her evidence of savings of £XXXX'??? They read income per year as 'savings', this means they did NOT read correctly? Also we had sent evidence of 6 months of her statements showing a monthly income from myself to her:



The number they mention is the Amount you get in a year... the 'savings' number is much lower of course.

 

When re-applying, what should I write back to them in the evidence? Should I screenshot and highlight where they READ it wrong? Will the next ECO understand???  How should I show the total of income per year, send extra statements up to 12months with highlights of monthly transfers?? (The income comes from me, because she does not have a proper job, she has a proper education etc. btw. certificates were sent to the ECO).
 

2) - Now this one, I do not understand. In her cover letter she wrote she was going to visit my family, correct, but also travel around with me to visit destinations around my hometown in the Cotswolds. My thoughts to this statement - and I may be naive and angry, but so what even if she was just requesting to visit her boyfriends home and family - is this not a valid reason anymore? (Same reason my last gf who got accepted twice)

3) I stated I would help pay £XXXX for the visit, and that accommodation + food was FREE because we would stay at my parents in the UK (all evidenced with signed letter from my father, his bank statements and pictures of the house). I DID NOT show evidence for this amount, so I agree I should send evidence -> can you guys help advise how to show it? Just show the money in my own account? I do not want to transfer to her, and show it like that, it would look dodgy/intentional? or should I do that?
 

4) "not displayed ANY" - This is incorrect, written in each cover letter, was that she has a land certificate in her name. The original certificate was scanned ALONG with a professionally translated (to English) and stamped copy. Did they just skip over it? - She also has family, friends and lives with me here - and I have a job to return to (with a letter of leave given in English and scanned).
 

5) Can anyone elaborate on what they are requiring? In the cover letters we stated our exact plans, planned return date and why etc. Are they expecting some other 'wording?'.

 

What can be done if the ECO does NOT read the application correctly? We sent all other required evidence, so would appreciate focus on the ECO's "reasons". ANY advice would be greatly appreciated for the re-application we will make... Thanks all!

[FritsSikkink]

Income is from work, you giving her money is not seen as income.

They correctly see her as unemployed and want to see the savings.

 

A land title is not seen as a link tied to the country, things like a job, a study are. That she will return with you when you need to be back for a job is. Then again, her reason to visit is to see your family. Maybe put more emphasis on the fact that you will be traveling together.

[Saltwater]

4 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Income is from work, you giving her money is not seen as income.

They correctly see her as unemployed and want to see the savings.

Thanks for the information here! - For her savings then, we sent the evidence for this - what do you think about my point No 3) ?  The money I will give her for the trip, should it be shown from my bank account, or I transfer to her and show from her bank account? etc.

[howerde]

Do not just put money into her account that will not be seen in a positive way, if you are providing the financial assistance then show your bank account

[theoldgit]

30 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Income is from work, you giving her money is not seen as income.

They correctly see her as unemployed and want to see the savings.

 

A land title is not seen as a link tied to the country, things like a job, a study are. That she will return with you when you need to be back for a job is. Then again, her reason to visit is to see your family. Maybe put more emphasis on the fact that you will be traveling together.

 

Good points have been made here.

 

@SaltwaterYou say you are living together, depending on the amount of time you've actually done so, I assume the money you pay her is similar to the "housekeeping" similar to that many of us pass onto our wives or partners as general housekeeping ang living expenses, rather than a salary.

 

Proving your relationship could satisfy the ECO of her reasons to return, you're a couple living together, travelling on holiday together, and will be returning home together.

 

How long ago did your ex girlfriend apply for her visa?

 

You don't need to supply details of your parents income, just a letter confirming that you've been invited to stay at their family home, and there's sufficient room for you both.

 

I'm just going out, I'll revisit your question tomorrow.

 

 

[Tony M]

Looking at the sections of the refusal notice that you have posted, it could be a "poor" refusal decision.  It would be helpful to be able to see the whole refusal notice, and to be able to put your quotes into context. You can redact personal information (as you have done already).   It would also be useful to see where the decision was made. 

 

It's interesting to see that you say that your girlfriend's land documents were submitted, but the ECO says not.  Did you self-upload the documents, or were they scanned at the Visa Application Centre ?  

 

If you would prefer to send me a private message, I'll be happy to help if I can.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Tony M

[RichardColeman]

1 hour ago, Saltwater said:

of her statements showing a monthly income from myself to her:

If you are giving her money - are you transferring it via bank account transfer or giving it to her in loose cash to bank it ? Might answer the question about no link if she's putting it in in cash. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by RichardColeman

[Saltwater]

59 minutes ago, Tony M said:

Looking at the sections of the refusal notice that you have posted, it could be a "poor" refusal decision.  It would be helpful to be able to see the whole refusal notice, and to be able to put your quotes into context. You can redact personal information (as you have done already).   It would also be useful to see where the decision was made. 

 

It's interesting to see that you say that your girlfriend's land documents were submitted, but the ECO says not.  Did you self-upload the documents, or were they scanned at the Visa Application Centre ?  

 

If you would prefer to send me a private message, I'll be happy to help if I can.

"were they scanned at the Visa Application Centre ?"
- Hi, thanks for asking, they were scanned at the Visa Application Centre, yes. We paid for this service. Both land certificate and graduation certificate professionally translated and stamped.
 

38 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

If you are giving her money - are you transferring it via bank account transfer or giving it to her in loose cash to bank it ? Might answer the question about no link if she's putting it in in cash. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is fine to ask, the money is just a monthly allowance so to speak - which is paid by bank transfer from me to her bank each month.

 

1 hour ago, theoldgit said:

 

Good points have been made here.

 

@SaltwaterYou say you are living together, depending on the amount of time you've actually done so, I assume the money you pay her is similar to the "housekeeping" similar to that many of us pass onto our wives or partners as general housekeeping ang living expenses, rather than a salary.

 

Proving your relationship could satisfy the ECO of her reasons to return, you're a couple living together, travelling on holiday together, and will be returning home together.

 

How long ago did your ex girlfriend apply for her visa?

 

You don't need to supply details of your parents income, just a letter confirming that you've been invited to stay at their family home, and there's sufficient room for you both.

 

I'm just going out, I'll revisit your question tomorrow.

 

 

Thanks for asking, we have been living together for over a year and a half, and yes, the money is just a monthly allowance so to speak. We submitted the documents 2 months ago on March 31st, the decision was extremely delayed as I have noticed with other applications...

"Proving your relationship could satisfy the ECO of her reasons to return"
- Indeed, this was explained in detail in both mine and her cover letter, pictures of travels to beaches, pictures of the workplace we met at with us there, and documents such as my payslips showing I work here legally with a return intention together. Do you have suggestions for extra evidence of relationship? Thanks!
 

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, Tony M said:

Looking at the sections of the refusal notice that you have posted, it could be a "poor" refusal decision.  It would be helpful to be able to see the whole refusal notice, and to be able to put your quotes into context. You can redact personal information (as you have done already).   It would also be useful to see where the decision was made. 

 

It's interesting to see that you say that your girlfriend's land documents were submitted, but the ECO says not.  Did you self-upload the documents, or were they scanned at the Visa Application Centre ?  

 

If you would prefer to send me a private message, I'll be happy to help if I can.

Completely agree with Tony - it very well may be a poor decision but the entire refusal notice would be needed.  It seems to me that the biggest concern is the old 'reasons to return' and in this case its a little odd to see it used.  Once someone's put in a couple of visits and showed that they return on time, the 'reasons aren't usually given as much weight as they were previously.

 

Some of your questions have already been answered but you would need to show the entire refusal notice for more help - obviously with personal details obscured.

 

One thing to be careful with on a re-application following a refusal - don't make material changes unless there has actually been a change and in thaty case, explain it fully. For example, let's say your girlfriend actually had a casual part time job but you didn't mention it because you exepected the savings/sponsorship to cover the financial aspect.  Don't suddenly say that she did in fact have a job.  However, if she's started a job between application and refusal - that's fine to mention.  In other words - don't try to make the pieces fit unless you actually have new pieces.

 

If you're living together in Thailand, is your gf named on any lease? Does she have a driving licence at that address? Bank account........bal bla bla.  You need to establish that you are a couple and if you do live together, proof of that.  Your gf's reasons to return would therefore be strenghened as you would need to return to continue your employment as as your partner, it would be reasonable to expect her to return with you.

 

Having said all that, its rare to see a refusal like this when someone's already put in a few successful visits.

[Saltwater]

12 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Completely agree with Tony - it very well may be a poor decision but the entire refusal notice would be needed.  It seems to me that the biggest concern is the old 'reasons to return' and in this case its a little odd to see it used.  Once someone's put in a couple of visits and showed that they return on time, the 'reasons aren't usually given as much weight as they were previously.

 

Some of your questions have already been answered but you would need to show the entire refusal notice for more help - obviously with personal details obscured.

 

One thing to be careful with on a re-application following a refusal - don't make material changes unless there has actually been a change and in thaty case, explain it fully. For example, let's say your girlfriend actually had a casual part time job but you didn't mention it because you exepected the savings/sponsorship to cover the financial aspect.  Don't suddenly say that she did in fact have a job.  However, if she's started a job between application and refusal - that's fine to mention.  In other words - don't try to make the pieces fit unless you actually have new pieces.

 

If you're living together in Thailand, is your gf named on any lease? Does she have a driving licence at that address? Bank account........bal bla bla.  You need to establish that you are a couple and if you do live together, proof of that.  Your gf's reasons to return would therefore be strenghened as you would need to return to continue your employment as as your partner, it would be reasonable to expect her to return with you.

 

Having said all that, its rare to see a refusal like this when someone's already put in a few successful visits.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, let me clear a bit of confusion perhaps sorry, I have made 2 accepted Visit Visa's with my 'EX-girlfriend'. This is my current girlfriend's first application attempt.
 

When you say 'entire refusal notice' do you mean the email they sent back with all the reasons with obscured details? Thanks.
 

"don't try to make the pieces fit unless you actually have new pieces."
- Understood, and I agree. I have previously only evidenced truths.
 

" is your gf named on any lease? Does she have a driving license at that address? Bank account"
- Her name is on the lease as a witness signature, driving license is to her parents address, and bank account address is at our address together - the statements also showed that. Cheers.

[Saltwater]

+ 1 Question, on the refusal letter, I noticed this, what is this Beijing location reference? or is it a name? Cheers.

[The Hammer2021]

There are agents who specialise  in these  applications and could  answer all  your inquiries and help  you prepare  the a better application.

[KhaoYai]

8 minutes ago, Saltwater said:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, let me clear a bit of confusion perhaps sorry, I have made 2 accepted Visit Visa's with my 'EX-girlfriend'. This is my current girlfriend's first application attempt.
 

When you say 'entire refusal notice' do you mean the email they sent back with all the reasons with obscured details? Thanks.
 

"don't try to make the pieces fit unless you actually have new pieces."
- Understood, and I agree. I have previously only evidenced truths.
 

" is your gf named on any lease? Does she have a driving license at that address? Bank account"
- Her name is on the lease as a witness signature, driving license is to her parents address, and bank account address is at our address together - the statements also showed that. Cheers.

Right, I thought she'd been before - so it is a first time application.

 

Yes, you would need to send the entire refusal e-mail - as Tony says, the replies need to be read in context.

 

Name on the lease as a witness doen't prove residence but the bank statement will help.  If you could find any other things linking her to the address - they should help.  Those details help establish that you are in a relationship and go towards the 'reasons to return'.

 

Now I know this is a first time application, I can see why reasons to return are being stressed.  You need to be very careful with a re-application following refusal.  Strengthen evidence rather than introduce new or change something that's already been stated.  Show close family ties in Thailand, major on the fact that you live together as a couple and are simply going on holiday together - that is not unreasonable - it would be unreasonable to expect you to visit family and leave your gf at home - if you see where I'm coming from.

 

Tony's asked for you to send detais by PM if you're uncomfortable posting them - I would do that.

 

In general, if you are going to send a supporting letter with the application and you want the ECO to actually read it - write it and edit it. Read it and edit it again.  Paragraph it and keep only the salient points whilst keeping it simple.  I have plenty of experiences of ECO's not reading things properly and we must all remember that they deal with dozens of applications per day.  A supporting letter must be capable of holding their attention.

[Saltwater]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

If you could find any other things linking her to the address - they should help

Thanks for the hints, I provided to them what we have in terms of proving living together. Any other ideas welcome.

 

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

Tony's asked for you to send detais by PM if you're uncomfortable posting them - I would do that.

I have done so, and if you or anyone else think seeing the information would help you advise me, let me know and I will also send to you, cheers.

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, Saltwater said:

Thanks for the hints, I provided to them what we have in terms of proving living together. Any other ideas welcome.

 

I have done so, and if you or anyone else think seeing the information would help you advise me, let me know and I will also send to you, cheers.

Not specifically on the address but on reasons to return in general: The applicant needs to convince the ECO that the reason for the visit is genuine and the applicant will return before their visa expires. In this case, the fact that you are a dual national could possibly be throwing a small spanner in the works - you're legally entitled to stay in the UK. There could be a suspicion that you are trying to get her in to the UK long term and trying to avoid the associated visa costs.  It would therefore be a good idea to demonstrate that not only does your gf have a settled life in Thailand, you do too - although you seem to have covered that.  Was your leave letter on headed paper? Did you include your boss's phone number?

 

I'm not a big believer that land ownership is accepted as a good reason to return - many Thai's own land but live abroad.  Sure it helps but one of the main things an ECO is looking for in reasons to return is employment or a strong explanation of why the applicant doesn't work. Your gf isn't working so she needs to say why and major on the other things.  Detail visits to her family with photos if possible.

 

 

7 hours ago, Saltwater said:

3) I stated I would help pay £XXXX for the visit, and that accommodation + food was FREE because we would stay at my parents in the UK (all evidenced with signed letter from my father, his bank statements and pictures of the house). I DID NOT show evidence for this amount, so I agree I should send evidence -> can you guys help advise how to show it? Just show the money in my own account? I do not want to transfer to her, and show it like that, it would look dodgy/intentional? or should I do that?

Yes, you should show money in your account.  You have stated that you will help pay for the visit. You are therefore a 'sponsor' and should have shown evidence of your funds.  Your father is also a 'sponsor' as he is providing accomodation - you sent a letter from your father but did it give any details of the property?  All I usually do is provide a statment that I am happy to accommodate X person, state the size of the property, how many bedrooms and provide a copy of the council tax bill. If your father is also contributing finacially, you need to provide evidence of those funds.

 

You provide your gf with a monthly income.  Show her bank statements detailing the incoming cash and ALSO show your bank statements detailing the transfers.

 

Many years ago when I applied for a visit visa for my first Thai wife before we were actually married, I received a phone call from an ECO (yes, they used to do that). She wanted to know why my then girlfriend wasn't working.  I told her that we were soon to be married, she'd worked in Bangkok for a long time - away from her son. We would be making a visa application for both my gf and her son to come to live in the UK once we were married so I'd asked my gf to stop work and take care of her son for a few months (I would pay her salary).As is often the case in Thailand, she hardly knew her own child.  I was asked to provide bank statements detailing transfers to my gf which I did and the visa was granted.

 

Try to look at this from the side of the ECO considering the application:

 

Unemployed Thai Citizen wishing to visit the UK.

 

Finance:

• Where are the funds coming from.
• What evidence is of these funds is there?
• Does the finance cover the costs of the entire trip?
• Are there any sponsors?
• Evidence of any sponsor's ability to fund?
• Evidence of applicant's relationship to sponsor?

Accomodation:

• Where will they stay?
• Hotel Booking? Stay with friends or relatives?
• Evidence of relationship?
• Any relationship to the occupants of the intended residence?

Reasons to Return:

• Evidence of settled and stable life in Thailand?
• Close family ties?
• Employment?
• Memberships?
• Dependants?
• Volunteering?

Its not enough to make statements - any material matters require evidence.

 

Without seeing your entire refusal e-mail - to me it looks 50/50 - the ECO looks to have missed a few points as have you - and you could have provided more evidence.  I think though, that on the face of it, the decision is a bit harsh but that's where you are - move forward from there.

 

A quick check on the internet will locate literally hundreds of young Thai women working across the UK as Escorts or at Massage Parlours.  The vast majority of those girls enter the UK on visit visas - many are on overstay. So ECO's have to take account of that when considering an application from a Thai female on top of their usual checks.  That explains why its sometimes a little harder to obtain a visit visa for a Thai girl - especially one who's not working.

 

Welcome to the Lottery of UK Visa applications - I've seen people with very few reasons to return and questionable employment details get a visa without a problem and people who provide lots of good evidence be refused. The one thing most refusals have in common is that they can't demonstrate a settled life in Thailand.  I have friends in Thailand that go abroad every year and rarely have visa problems.....why?  They have regular jobs, can cover the cost of their holiday easily without sponsorship, houses, etc. etc. - a normal settled life.

 

Anyway,  I won't muddy the waters any further - Hopefully Tony will sort this out for you.

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by KhaoYai

[Saltwater]

Thanks for all the information, I have taken it all in, and will just focus on your questions to keep things simple:
 

3 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Was your leave letter on headed paper? Did you include your boss's phone number?

It was indeed, company header letter (TAX codes, address etc), with a message giving permission, CEO's signature with his personal phone number - stating I would return to work when back as usual.
 

3 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Your gf isn't working so she needs to say why and major on the other things.

Agreed, she and myself stated that in both our cover letters, she is doing online Art courses and etc. I finance her (in more detail than that), so should be a done thing? or not?
 

4 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Your father is also a 'sponsor' as he is providing accomodation - you sent a letter from your father but did it give any details of the property?  All I usually do is provide a statment that I am happy to accommodate X person, state the size of the property, how many bedrooms and provide a copy of the council tax bill. If your father is also contributing finacially, you need to provide evidence of those funds.

He had his own letter sent yes, signed also from the UK stating free food, accommodation, details of property i.e. bedrooms, bathrooms (amount also) and any utilities free. Water, electric etc. With picture evidence, and also my father's bank statements. No council tax bill though...

 

4 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

You provide your gf with a monthly income.  Show her bank statements detailing the incoming cash and ALSO show your bank statements detailing the transfers.

"Show her bank statements" - We sent 6 months work, where the statements show my transfers, but we didnt exactly highlight each of my specific transfers... Also I did not send my statements show going out, her statements showed my name transferring in.
 

4 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I received a phone call from an ECO (yes, they used to do that)

Yes, with my ex-gf's Visas, they called us both times, to ask us about work and etc. and then got accepted, this time, the 'Beijing' office ECO, did not even call... or they dont do that anymore?

 

[The Hammer2021]

4 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Completely agree with Tony - it very well may be a poor decision but the entire refusal notice would be needed.  It seems to me that the biggest concern is the old 'reasons to return' and in this case its a little odd to see it used.  Once someone's put in a couple of visits and showed that they return on time, the 'reasons aren't usually given as much weight as they were previously.

 

Some of your questions have already been answered but you would need to show the entire refusal notice for more help - obviously with personal details obscured.

 

One thing to be careful with on a re-application following a refusal - don't make material changes unless there has actually been a change and in thaty case, explain it fully. For example, let's say your girlfriend actually had a casual part time job but you didn't mention it because you exepected the savings/sponsorship to cover the financial aspect.  Don't suddenly say that she did in fact have a job.  However, if she's started a job between application and refusal - that's fine to mention.  In other words - don't try to make the pieces fit unless you actually have new pieces.

 

If you're living together in Thailand, is your gf named on any lease? Does she have a driving licence at that address? Bank account........bal bla bla.  You need to establish that you are a couple and if you do live together, proof of that.  Your gf's reasons to return would therefore be strenghened as you would need to return to continue your employment as as your partner, it would be reasonable to expect her to return with you.

 

Having said all that, its rare to see a refusal like this when someone's already put in a few successful visits.

Not the same girl! To somebody in FO/ BA whatever he might just look like a trafficker

[KhaoYai]

2 minutes ago, Saltwater said:

Thanks for all the information, I have taken it all in, and will just focus on your questions to keep things simple:

Well then you don't seem to have done an awful lot wrong - hopefully Tony will be able to see why the application was refused.

 

Usually a phone call is a good indication that subject to tying up a few loose ends, its down for acceptance - unless it reveals something that differs from what's been stated. 

[KhaoYai]

3 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Not the same girl! To somebody in FO/ BA whatever he might just look like a trafficker

Yes, that's been established - I didn't read 'ex gf' in his OP.