The Builders Of Our Luxury Condos

[think_too_mut]

One example, this is Nusasiri project. Corner Sukhumvit Soi 42, next to Ekkamai bus terminal. It was going 80K baht sqm if I remember well.

When I last inquired, 2 years ago "only 1 condo left, sir". Now they pop up in ads as the time to pay it all is approaching.

The works are progressing, thanks to the workman living accross the road, in "company provided accommodation".

I understand that builders (contractors) don't usually have the means to buy most of what they build, but in Australia at least, they would drive their own car to work and back. Even in Arizona illegal Mexicans (on 4 US$ an hour) would come in a car or pickup truck that belongs to one of them.

Look at this. Poor guy in the picture has brought the entire family to share the shed with 100s of others.

[Irene]

Very noble of you to notice that. Do you notice that they still look so happy in this wretched condition. I always wonder why they look happier to some of the millionaire families. Must be Buddhism.

[think_too_mut]

Very noble of you to notice that. Do you notice that they still look so happy in this wretched condition. I always wonder why they look happier to some of the millionaire families. Must be Buddhism.

Who knows, maybe further lowering of their wages and (if possible) deterioration of living conditions would make them even happier?

Many of us ost of us know those 2 VT buildings, just completed, next to Adriatic Palace hotel in Pattaya. Top floor units went for 12, 13, 14 million baht.

The happy heroes who built them missed on "company accommodation" but were enjoying the benefot of "company transport" instead.

Their happinss was dripping off that truck as I drove behind it.

Edited July 23, 2007 by think_too_mut

[quiksilva]

I don't mean to sound harsh but what do you expect? This is Thailand, labour is cheap here and will be for quite some considerable amount of time.

As a buyer who would pay XX% more on a condo for better living conditions and higher salaries for the workers who built it, for the same quality?

As a developer why would you pay more than minimum wage if they can not add value to the company or the quality of the products it delivers?

Its a shame that the government has not done more to educate the population, with illiteracy being so widespread and education standards being what they are its not hard to understand why so many end up doing manual labour to earn a crust.

[think_too_mut]

I don't mean to sound harsh but what do you expect? This is Thailand, labour is cheap here and will be for quite some considerable amount of time.

As a buyer who would pay XX% more on a condo for better living conditions and higher salaries for the workers who built it, for the same quality?

As a developer why would you pay more than minimum wage if they can not add value to the company or the quality of the products it delivers?

That's it - this is Thailand where labour is cheap. From property prices around this board looks like the laborers stay in a 3-star hotels and come to work in airconditioned car each.

That's why I said in a post 6-7 months ago - no property in Thailand should cost more than 20K baht sqm. And it goes 120-180K . So, who skims the money?

Wokers and materials definitelly don't.

That is how government could say they were to build ViewTalay kind of buildings (5000 units) near the airport and commercially sell them to the workers for 1 million baht 44sqm. That's where the cost of materials, labor and execution meets the reality.

Sure, the place won't be Emporum suites but I need a lot of convincing that Nusasiri has to be 5 times that price, considering the same labor and materisals (+1 level in quality - if that) is used.

[HenryLongfellow]

People talk about Thailand being a poor country. This is just BS. Thailand just has many poor people. That are kept down by the rich.

[quiksilva]

I don't mean to sound harsh but what do you expect? This is Thailand, labour is cheap here and will be for quite some considerable amount of time.

As a buyer who would pay XX% more on a condo for better living conditions and higher salaries for the workers who built it, for the same quality?

As a developer why would you pay more than minimum wage if they can not add value to the company or the quality of the products it delivers?

That's it - this is Thailand where labour is cheap. From property prices around this board looks like the laborers stay in a 3-star hotels and come to work in airconditioned car each.

That's why I said in a post 6-7 months ago - no property in Thailand should cost more than 20K baht sqm. And it goes 120-180K . So, who skims the money?

Wokers and materials definitely don't.

Obviously the developer has to make some profit, they don't do this for free.

Construction costs (just construction excluding land) could be in the region of 25,000 Baht per square meter on the gross built up area, you can just about double that for net sellable area. The rest goes on land acquistion costs, professional fees, marketing costs and of course developer's profit (typically about 30%).

20,000 Baht per square meter might just about get you a modern distribution center (including land) but not a condo. No way.

Edited July 23, 2007 by quiksilva

[think_too_mut]

I don't mean to sound harsh but what do you expect? This is Thailand, labour is cheap here and will be for quite some considerable amount of time.

As a buyer who would pay XX% more on a condo for better living conditions and higher salaries for the workers who built it, for the same quality?

As a developer why would you pay more than minimum wage if they can not add value to the company or the quality of the products it delivers?

That's it - this is Thailand where labour is cheap. From property prices around this board looks like the laborers stay in a 3-star hotels and come to work in airconditioned car each.

That's why I said in a post 6-7 months ago - no property in Thailand should cost more than 20K baht sqm. And it goes 120-180K . So, who skims the money?

Wokers and materials definitely don't.

Obviously the developer has to make some profit, they don't do this for free.

Construction costs (just construction excluding land) could be in the region of 25,000 Baht per square meter on the gross built up area, you can just about double that for net sellable area. The rest goes on land acquistion costs, professional fees, marketing costs and of course developer's profit (typically about 30%).

20,000 Baht per square meter might just about get you a modern distribution center (including land) but not a condo. No way.

When a friend bought 2 unsold units in View Talay 2, they were 550,000 each. So, for 1.1 mil he got 76sqm when he connected them.

That was 6 years ago. What happened since then with labor and material cost? Probably nothing.

Many here would know - the inflation is low.

Even taxi prices in Thailand have not changed and inch for 10 years now - still 35 baht flag fall as in 1997.

[pkrv]

I don't mean to sound harsh but what do you expect? This is Thailand, labour is cheap here and will be for quite some considerable amount of time.

As a buyer who would pay XX% more on a condo for better living conditions and higher salaries for the workers who built it, for the same quality?

As a developer why would you pay more than minimum wage if they can not add value to the company or the quality of the products it delivers?

That's it - this is Thailand where labour is cheap. From property prices around this board looks like the laborers stay in a 3-star hotels and come to work in airconditioned car each.

That's why I said in a post 6-7 months ago - no property in Thailand should cost more than 20K baht sqm. And it goes 120-180K . So, who skims the money?

Wokers and materials definitely don't.

Obviously the developer has to make some profit, they don't do this for free.

Construction costs (just construction excluding land) could be in the region of 25,000 Baht per square meter on the gross built up area, you can just about double that for net sellable area. The rest goes on land acquistion costs, professional fees, marketing costs and of course developer's profit (typically about 30%).

20,000 Baht per square meter might just about get you a modern distribution center (including land) but not a condo. No way.

When a friend bought 2 unsold units in View Talay 2, they were 550,000 each. So, for 1.1 mil he got 76sqm when he connected them.

That was 6 years ago. What happened since then with labor and material cost? Probably nothing.

Many here would know - the inflation is low.

Even taxi prices in Thailand have not changed and inch for 10 years now - still 35 baht flag fall as in 1997.

think_too_mut - buying a 142 sqm condo I will have to pay 1m THB over the odds on foreign exchange alone (if I don't get this correct). Global commodity prices have also sort of gone up.

quiksilva - what is a modern distribution center?

[MrSquigle]

Building prices have gone up a lot, land has gone up a lot. If you think they are making 100k baht profit on a square metre you boulders in your head.

TTM...invite them all round to your joint to live and give them a good feed, show them a bit of good western yocharity.

Edited July 23, 2007 by MrSquigle

[think_too_mut]

Building prices have gone up a lot, land has gone up a lot. If you think they are making 100k baht profit on a square metre you boulders in your head.

TTM...invite them all round to your joint to live and give them a good feed, show them a bit of good western yocharity.

The land has gone up. Nothing else, except the petrol but that hurts the laborers too.

Just read around and see what people who built their own houses (on land that was somehow made available) - 8000B sqm. And those use good quality materials, pay the laborers and fit the houses with good quality interior. Still a far cry from 20K baht that I said should be the price for high rises (not luxury ones).

[chownah]

All building materials have gone up in price in the last five years.

[think_too_mut]

All building materials have gone up in price in the last five years.

For everyone?

Not only for luxury condo developers?

[UnknownPoster]

Probably better conditions than the place back home I'm guessing.

Just about every building project has the tin shack housing for the employees.

The workers usually turn the area into an instant slum, throwng garbage and rubble all over the place.

[ThaiPauly]

I don't mean to sound harsh but what do you expect? This is Thailand, labour is cheap here and will be for quite some considerable amount of time.

As a buyer who would pay XX% more on a condo for better living conditions and higher salaries for the workers who built it, for the same quality?

As a developer why would you pay more than minimum wage if they can not add value to the company or the quality of the products it delivers?

That's it - this is Thailand where labour is cheap. From property prices around this board looks like the laborers stay in a 3-star hotels and come to work in airconditioned car each.

That's why I said in a post 6-7 months ago - no property in Thailand should cost more than 20K baht sqm. And it goes 120-180K . So, who skims the money?

Wokers and materials definitely don't.

Obviously the developer has to make some profit, they don't do this for free.

Construction costs (just construction excluding land) could be in the region of 25,000 Baht per square meter on the gross built up area, you can just about double that for net sellable area. The rest goes on land acquistion costs, professional fees, marketing costs and of course developer's profit (typically about 30%).

20,000 Baht per square meter might just about get you a modern distribution center (including land) but not a condo. No way.

When a friend bought 2 unsold units in View Talay 2, they were 550,000 each. So, for 1.1 mil he got 76sqm when he connected them.

That was 6 years ago. What happened since then with labor and material cost? Probably nothing.

Even taxi prices in Thailand have not changed and inch for 10 years now - still 35 baht flag fall as in 1997.

They have been able to keep Taxi Prices stable because of the introduction of LPG.

It would have been impossible for them to keep operating at that cost for 10 years without a price hike, their standard of living would have plumeted

[think_too_mut]

Probably better conditions than the place back home I'm guessing.

Just about every building project has the tin shack housing for the employees.

The workers usually turn the area into an instant slum, throwng garbage and rubble all over the place.

Guessing, and you are wrong on all 3 accounts.

Nowhere upcountry, not even in Hmong refugee camps, people live in hundreds under one shed.

And the "slum" is remarkably clean, considering the conditions, no rubbish around.

Here is another one, on a smaller construction site:

[backflip]

Opie,

What's your point, exactly? First you imply that you overpaid for the condo. Then you imply that the condo developer lied to you about the availability of units. Then you comment on the progress of the work. Finally, you mention the living conditions of the workers. Is that what's bugging you? Why? If you want to buy a condo where the workers ared paid $30US/hour, you can do so...but your condo will cost a lot more. Did you think that the workers lived in 5-star housing, they all drove new cars, and their partners spent their days watching TV, shopping at the Emporium? Welcome to the real word.

[think_too_mut]

You could be intoxicated and replying to someone that lives in your fantasy.

That prevented you from understanding the point: materials are local, workers are paid and live like cattle and prices are world-class. Got it? No?

[quiksilva]

pkrv typically modern DC's are high bay warehouses with raised floors and multiple loading docks, like this:

Think too mut, the fact is that a great deal of construction materials for high rise buildings are imported (especially grade A condos). This is not just finishing materials (although plenty of that is imported too), Thai steel for instance is not suitable for high rise construction, so it is all imported.

Development costs are therefore greatly affected by currency fluctuations and world demand for commodities. The Chinese and their unwavering demand for construction materials for instance has certainly had an affect.

[think_too_mut]

Think too mut, the fact is that a great deal of construction materials for high rise buildings are imported (especially grade A condos). This is not just finishing materials (although plenty of that is imported too), Thai steel for instance is not suitable for high rise construction, so it is all imported.

Development costs are therefore greatly affected by currency fluctuations and world demand for commodities. The Chinese and their unwavering demand for construction materials for instance has certainly had an affect.

Lovely! I did not know that imprted materials are so widely used.

With strong baht, all those imported materials should now cost 30% less than last year. It would not only ofsett the rising commodity prices, it would bring some extra savings too.

Edited July 24, 2007 by think_too_mut

[teejay]

That prevented you from understanding the point: materials are local, workers are paid and live like cattle and prices are world-class. Got it? No?

same thing goes for the new world's tallest in Dubai...... your point still is?

btw fact + fact + fact does not equal point

[think_too_mut]

That prevented you from understanding the point: materials are local, workers are paid and live like cattle and prices are world-class. Got it? No?

same thing goes for the new world's tallest in Dubai...... your point still is?

btw fact + fact + fact does not equal point

Really?

The builders there could be low paid but nothing like 160B per day. And accommodation in Dubai is in such a short supply that it may take them 4-5 years to build up what is demanded. That's not the labor market climate where workers are fed a handful of rice a day.

Bangkok is at the other end - it may take 5-10 years to sell what has already been built.

The paradox is - real estate is pushing prices and trying to entertain the market any way they could (understandable) and talking it from the other side is what I am doing.

And what are your facts? Not only you have no facts, you have even less of a point.

Edited July 24, 2007 by think_too_mut

[Mid]

Probably better conditions than the place back home I'm guessing.

Just about every building project has the tin shack housing for the employees.

The workers usually turn the area into an instant slum, throwng garbage and rubble all over the place.

please do be careful in that rarefied air your breathing up there .

[quiksilva]

Think too mut, the fact is that a great deal of construction materials for high rise buildings are imported (especially grade A condos). This is not just finishing materials (although plenty of that is imported too), Thai steel for instance is not suitable for high rise construction, so it is all imported.

Development costs are therefore greatly affected by currency fluctuations and world demand for commodities. The Chinese and their unwavering demand for construction materials for instance has certainly had an affect.

Lovely! I did not know that imprted materials are so widely used.

With strong baht, all those imported materials should now cost 30% less than last year. It would not only ofsett the rising commodity prices, it would bring some extra savings too.

Hmm interesting concept developers passing on savings to purchasers. It'll never catch on. I have seen it happen in the industrial market here though (seriously) but I think we may have a bit of a wait before that happens for condos!

[pkrv]

pkrv typically modern DC's are high bay warehouses with raised floors and multiple loading docks, like this:

quiksilva - OIC - Thanks PKRV

On purchase of products with an FX exposure companies usually have hedging strategies in place to limit risk. There is not going to be much there in terms of profit or loss, that's the point of it. Mind you some international companies don't/didn't have this in place (some time ago JAL USD and Boeing come to mind). Locking in of costs is important?

[MrSquigle]

TTM, I guess when it comes down to it, your idea of quality fittings and mateials for 8k baht are very much different to mine and many others.

While I agree that 120k baht is ridiculous prices for this country, if there are idiots to pay it, why not make a business from it. But your argument based on your comments are just simply so far off the mark that your ignorance of it is shining through

Edited July 24, 2007 by MrSquigle

[UnknownPoster]

Very noble of you to notice that. Do you notice that they still look so happy in this wretched condition. I always wonder why they look happier to some of the millionaire families. Must be Buddhism.

Who knows, maybe further lowering of their wages and (if possible) deterioration of living conditions would make them even happier?

Many of us ost of us know those 2 VT buildings, just completed, next to Adriatic Palace hotel in Pattaya. Top floor units went for 12, 13, 14 million baht.

The happy heroes who built them missed on "company accommodation" but were enjoying the benefot of "company transport" instead.

Their happinss was dripping off that truck as I drove behind it.

The guys in the back of that truck are loving it. It's a good minimum wage job. Thousands are lined up to take their place if they don't like it.

Back home(up-country), they have almost zero opportunity, picking up the odd job now and then for 100bt a day.

Come to Bangkok, work a couple years on a project and then go home as a bigshot with money to burn.

That's what they are doing.

[think_too_mut]

Hear, hear, what do we have here:

TTM, I guess when it comes down to it, your idea of quality fittings and mateials for 8k baht are very much different to mine and many others.

It's not my idea. It's all over the board, see Isaan section, people comparing their building cost and that's where the calculation came from.

I personally know of one guy who build a 120sqm house with quality fittings (granite floors, i.e) for 1 mil baht (then it was 25K US$) and it is really nice. In central plains.

While I agree that 120k baht is ridiculous prices for this country, if there are idiots to pay it, why not make a business from it.

Don't know why are you calling people (the byers) idiots. My posts are about "behind the scenes", nothing unusual and nobody yet said it is not true.

There could be things that I don't know, other who do have contributed.

But your argument based on your comments are just simply so far off the mark that your ignorance of it is shining through

So not only something has struck a raw nerve, it was so strong that you are resorting to insults. With zero value contribution to the thread, it just looks like....as you named it.