Just now, Yagoda said:

Curious: Honestly, of course, have you recouped your investment? How much you have in your set up?

Because of existing knowledge of storage and solar, I was able to setup ~10kW of solar and 13.5 kW of storage for about 135k.  It was a fun experiment that I didn't take too seriously.  It was a shock how easy it was and how simple the ongoing power production is and don't foresee any issues.  Knock on wood 🙂

 

The same system today( 1 year later ) would cost 35k baht less!  The battery technology is exploding and top end batteries a year ago will be archaic in 5 years.  Sound wonderful BUT in reality it is part of the payback problem.  People that install solar seem to not be able to refrain from buying the newest and greatest tech to replace their almost new setups!

 

To answer your question about payback, it depends 🙂  When you install solar and storage it seems that most start using 2,3,4 times the power they used before solar.  They then calculate their payback using their current energy needs.  For example a 5 bedroom house with AC on in every room running 24/7 and throw in a EV for every family member as well as outdoor cooling systems... 

 

For me without being to silly with my energy needs, I calculate at 3.5k baht saving per month the payback will be 4 years.  As I get older (58yo) and my private and government pensions kick in, I will probably buy more toys that hog energy and having a paid for system will be a positive. In my mind, the risk is tiny for value it creates.  Having EVs is nice and I bet you will get to experience them yourself. I never fell for the renewable arguments until I decided to experiment with them myself.

10 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

They have consistently been far too pessimistic.

Like the predictions of climate doom.

 

Wonder how much wind and solar will be built without government $$$.

 

https://nypost.com/2025/09/23/us-news/2-2-billion-ivanpah-solar-facility-in-california-turned-off-after-years-of-wasted-money/

 

Convince folks to invest in your pipe dream...without my tax dollars then

19 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

Thank you so much for providing another-evidence free rant.

Are you contending that the Chinese are NOT the major suppliers of Solar equipment?

 

17 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

As a demonstration of the bubble you live in, you actually advocated for Modular Nuclear Plants. They don't even exist yet and the earliest projection for them to be actual is 2030

Get out of the way, government.

https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/nrc-dockets-construction-permit-application-tva-small-modular-reactor

 

 

30 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

As I showed, the vast majority of new electric power sources being developed today are renewable

As I asked you in the beginning, whats your point? You dont like Trumps current energy policy that wont SUBSIDIZE renewable power?

 

Guess you need to convince folks of the need to both subsidize power and pay more for it. You havent. Your side lost. Even Greta gave up and moved to the next Socialist cause: supporting jew hating terrorist baby killers.

 

Drill baby drill. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Because of existing knowledge of storage and solar, I was able to setup ~10kW of solar and 13.5 kW of storage for about 135k.  It was a fun experiment that I didn't take too seriously.  It was a shock how easy it was and how simple the ongoing power production is and don't foresee any issues.  Knock on wood 🙂

 

The same system today( 1 year later ) would cost 35k baht less!  The battery technology is exploding and top end batteries a year ago will be archaic in 5 years.  Sound wonderful BUT in reality it is part of the payback problem.  People that install solar seem to not be able to refrain from buying the newest and greatest tech to replace their almost new setups!

 

To answer your question about payback, it depends 🙂  When you install solar and storage it seems that most start using 2,3,4 times the power they used before solar.  They then calculate their payback using their current energy needs.  For example a 5 bedroom house with AC on in every room running 24/7 and throw in a EV for every family member as well as outdoor cooling systems... 

 

For me without being to silly with my energy needs, I calculate at 3.5k baht saving per month the payback will be 4 years.  As I get older (58yo) and my private and government pensions kick in, I will probably buy more toys that hog energy and having a paid for system will be a positive. In my mind, the risk is tiny for value it creates.  Having EVs is nice and I bet you will get to experience them yourself. I never fell for the renewable arguments until I decided to experiment with them myself.

Oh, got it, you are here in the tropics and it costs about $3000 on a DIY basis. Wonder how it would work in Northern Minnesota

3 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

Like the predictions of climate doom.

 

Wonder how much wind and solar will be built without government $$$.

 

https://nypost.com/2025/09/23/us-news/2-2-billion-ivanpah-solar-facility-in-california-turned-off-after-years-of-wasted-money/

 

Convince folks to invest in your pipe dream...without my tax dollars then

The governments involvement was a disaster in California and probably would apply to anywhere in the world.  It did get people interested though but that interest came at a huge cost.  When the government paid the bill people had zero concern for cost and the price for   installations  became laughable.  Literally, people were laughing at the costs of their systems that "they" were paying little to nothing to have installed.

 

At this point let capitalism and market forces determine what sources provide our energy needs.  I seriously doubt many new coal plants that aren't funded by governments will be built in the coming years but hey I could be wrong.

38 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Do you think coal is the answer 25 years from now? 

Absolutely. Why not?

15 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

Like the predictions of climate doom.

 

Wonder how much wind and solar will be built without government $$$.

 

https://nypost.com/2025/09/23/us-news/2-2-billion-ivanpah-solar-facility-in-california-turned-off-after-years-of-wasted-money/

 

Convince folks to invest in your pipe dream...without my tax dollars then

 

In 2012, the US Department of Energy (DOE) offered up to $452 million to cover “the engineering, design, certification and licensing costs for up to two U.S. SMR designs.” The two SMR designs that were selected by the DOE for funding were NuScale Power and Generation mPower.

NuScale recently abandoned its flagship project in Idaho. The company secured subsidies amounting to around $4 billion from the U.S. government comprising a $1.4 billion subsidy from the DOE and an estimated $30 per megawatt-hour (MWh) subsidy in the Inflation Reduction Act. Despite that government largesse, NuScale didn’t come close to securing sufficient funding to get the project off the ground.

https://www.climateandcapitalmedia.com/small-modular-nuclear-reactors-a-history-of-failure/

 

Of course, that's as nothing compared to the massive costs incurred by ratepayers due to massive nuclear power plant overruns.

Georgia nuclear rebirth arrives 7 years late, $17B over cost

https://apnews.com/article/georgia-nuclear-power-plant-vogtle-rates-costs-75c7a413cda3935dd551be9115e88a64

 

And the failure of the solar power plant, which depended on concentrated heat, is actually proof of the extraordinary progress made with photovoltiacs both in efficiency and price drops. Concentrated heat just couldn't match it. From the article you cited:

"Though it sounds like a bit of a Rube Goldberg contraption — and looks like an art installation — Ivanpah was a cutting-edge idea for a while. But, as the market changed, it couldn’t compete with newer and less expensive forms of creating solar power.

“It simply did not scale up,” said Smeloff. “It’s kind of an obsolete technology [that’s] been outpaced by solar photovoltaic technology.”

https://nypost.com/2025/09/23/us-news/2-2-billion-ivanpah-solar-facility-in-california-turned-off-after-years-of-wasted-money/

1 minute ago, Alan Zweibel said:

 

In 2012, the US Department of Energy (DOE) offered up to $452 million to cover “the engineering, design, certification and licensing costs for up to two U.S. SMR designs.” The two SMR designs that were selected by the DOE for funding were NuScale Power and Generation mPower.

NuScale recently abandoned its flagship project in Idaho. The company secured subsidies amounting to around $4 billion from the U.S. government comprising a $1.4 billion subsidy from the DOE and an estimated $30 per megawatt-hour (MWh) subsidy in the Inflation Reduction Act. Despite that government largesse, NuScale didn’t come close to securing sufficient funding to get the project off the ground.

https://www.climateandcapitalmedia.com/small-modular-nuclear-reactors-a-history-of-failure/

 

Of course, that's as nothing compared to the massive costs incurred by ratepayers due to massive nuclear power plant overruns.

Georgia nuclear rebirth arrives 7 years late, $17B over cost

https://apnews.com/article/georgia-nuclear-power-plant-vogtle-rates-costs-75c7a413cda3935dd551be9115e88a64

 

And the failure of the solar power plant, which depended on concentrated heat, is actually proof of the extraordinary progress made with photovoltiacs both in efficiency and price drops. Concentrated heat just couldn't match it. From the article you cited:

"Though it sounds like a bit of a Rube Goldberg contraption — and looks like an art installation — Ivanpah was a cutting-edge idea for a while. But, as the market changed, it couldn’t compete with newer and less expensive forms of creating solar power.

“It simply did not scale up,” said Smeloff. “It’s kind of an obsolete technology [that’s] been outpaced by solar photovoltaic technology.”

https://nypost.com/2025/09/23/us-news/2-2-billion-ivanpah-solar-facility-in-california-turned-off-after-years-of-wasted-money/

You are trying to convince yourself LOL.

 

 

1 minute ago, Yagoda said:

You are trying to convince yourself LOL.

.Once again, thank you for offering no evidence. And it makes a mockery of your requests from to provide such.

14 minutes ago, atpeace said:

The governments involvement was a disaster in California and probably would apply to anywhere in the world.  It did get people interested though but that interest came at a huge cost.  When the government paid the bill people had zero concern for cost and the price for   installations  became laughable.  Literally, people were laughing at the costs of their systems that "they" were paying little to nothing to have installed.

 

At this point let capitalism and market forces determine what sources provide our energy needs.  I seriously doubt many new coal plants that aren't funded by governments will be built in the coming years but hey I could be wrong.

I would think gas fired is the better way to go.

 

I think solar setups in houses are great as long as its not subsidized.

2 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

.Once again, thank you for offering no evidence. And it makes a mockery of your requests from to provide such.

Your welcome, but you are arguing with yourself now.

3 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

Oh, got it, you are here in the tropics and it costs about $3000 on a DIY basis. Wonder how it would work in Northern Minnesota

Not as well 🙂 N Michican is a great place as far as producing solar and the price of installation is much better than California.  For the life of me, I can't figure out how it makes financial sense.  Just the time value of money invested is higher than what most would  save. It will never pay for itself. 

 

America, IMO, screwed up solar implementation.  The focus should have been on developing easy to install systems and  the selling energy back to the grid easy.  By focusing on paying for installations they made it impossible to be financially  viable without  government subsidies. Sad 😞

 

Below is a redit post about a solar install in N Michigan.  If you have rich parents like Greta or money isn't an issue, then have at it.   I wouldn't tough it...

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

Your welcome, but you are arguing with yourself now.

Given your immunity to facts and reason, that may have always been the case.

On 10/1/2025 at 1:00 PM, Alan Zweibel said:

The Maryland city is well over an hour’s drive from the northern Virginia region known as Data Center Alley. But Kevin Stanley, a 57-year-old who survives on disability payments, says his energy bills are about 80% higher than they were about three years ago. “They’re going up and up,” he said. “You wonder, ‘What is your breaking point?’”
It’s an increasingly dramatic ripple effect of the AI boom as energy-hungry data centers send power costs to records in much of the US, pulling everyday households into paying for the digital economy.

https://archive.ph/eCQ6k#selection-1435.0-1439.200

 

The Trump plan is to build more high cost coal-fired and nuclear power plants.

while the AI robots continue to take jobs away from humans too.  Before long we surviving humans will have to work for robots

3 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Not as well 🙂 N Michican is a great place as far as producing solar and the price of installation is much better than California.  For the life of me, I can't figure out how it makes financial sense.  Just the time value of money invested is higher than what most would  save. It will never pay for itself. 

 

America, IMO, screwed up solar implementation.  The focus should have been on developing easy to install systems and  the selling energy back to the grid easy.  By focusing on paying for installations they made it impossible to be financially  viable without  government subsidies. Sad 😞

 

Below is a redit post about a solar install in N Michigan.  If you have rich parents like Greta or money isn't an issue, then have at it.   I wouldn't tough it...

 

 

 

Have you seen the new wind power systems? In northern climes, both wind and solar together work well, but it all depends on the buy back policies.

23 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

Absolutely. Why not?

As you, I think cost of energy produced should be the only factor.  New solar is cheaper than new coal energy facilities.  The price of solar and energy is plummeting.  Your argument is still viable for existing coal energy facilities but they do age and won't be around forever.  I think in 5 years time, new solar will be cheaper than existing coal but who knows...

2 minutes ago, atpeace said:

As you, I think cost of energy produced should be the only factor. 

Well I think that the environment should be taken into account, to the extent of air pollution and land waste. Need a lot of land for solar and windmills? LOL

4 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

Have you seen the new wind power systems? In northern climes, both wind and solar together work well, but it all depends on the buy back policies.

No, I'm not  ultra  interested  in energy 🙂 I just jump in solar discussions on occasion.  In this internet age I find it near impossible to find reality.  I spend my energy having fun experimenting with energy needs because I have too much time and really no friends where I now live 🙂

25 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

.Once again, thank you for offering no evidence. And it makes a mockery of your requests from to provide such.

 

Let the Cambodian go, he's just spouting his cult master's drivel. Maybe he should tell Google, who has already DC's running on renewable energy, and is building more of them, that they are idiots

WASHINGTON -- The Trump administration said Monday it will open 13 million acres of federal lands for coal mining and provide $625 million to recommission or modernize coal-fired power plants as President Donald Trump continues his efforts to reverse the years-long decline in the U.S. coal industry.

Actions by the Energy and Interior departments and the Environmental Protection Agency follow executive orders Trump issued in April to revive coal, a reliable but polluting energy source that’s long been shrinking amid environmental regulations and competition from cheaper natural gas. 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/trump-administration-opens-land-coal-mining-offers-625m-126048784

14 minutes ago, atpeace said:

I spend my energy having fun experimenting with energy needs because I have too much time

One of the reasons I came to Asia. Lots of time and expensive hobbies in the USA.

8 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

WASHINGTON -- The Trump administration said Monday it will open 13 million acres of federal lands for coal mining and provide $625 million to recommission or modernize coal-fired power plants as President Donald Trump continues his efforts to reverse the years-long decline in the U.S. coal industry.

Actions by the Energy and Interior departments and the Environmental Protection Agency follow executive orders Trump issued in April to revive coal, a reliable but polluting energy source that’s long been shrinking amid environmental regulations and competition from cheaper natural gas. 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/trump-administration-opens-land-coal-mining-offers-625m-126048784

Great. Are those grants or loans.

14 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

Maybe he should tell Google, who has already DC's running on renewable energy, and is building more of them, that they are idiots

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha. How many Google data centers are powered ENTIRELY by renewable energy? 

 

Did you know that Nuclear is considered CFE.

21 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

Let the Cambodian go,

Still smarting from that exclusion at the border? Cant even get into Cambodia huh. Try Laos if you ever leave Mums basement

2 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

Still smarting from that exclusion at the border? Cant even get into Cambodia huh. Try Laos if you ever leave Mums basement

 

Why do you think I would want to visit a third world country like you. I can afford Thailand

A lot of these Data Centers require large amounts of electricity for operation/cooling, and some water to operate.  Depending on location, regulations in the area some install large amounts of solar.  Lastly some living somewhat close to Data Centers have reported issues with the sound/noise being emitting causing discomfort or health issues.

 

Hopefully there can be a balance and a fair solution to these concerns.

 

On 10/1/2025 at 1:00 PM, Alan Zweibel said:

The Maryland city is well over an hour’s drive from the northern Virginia region known as Data Center Alley. But Kevin Stanley, a 57-year-old who survives on disability payments, says his energy bills are about 80% higher than they were about three years ago. “They’re going up and up,” he said. “You wonder, ‘What is your breaking point?’”
It’s an increasingly dramatic ripple effect of the AI boom as energy-hungry data centers send power costs to records in much of the US, pulling everyday households into paying for the digital economy.

https://archive.ph/eCQ6k#selection-1435.0-1439.200

 

The Trump plan is to build more high cost coal-fired and nuclear power plants.

Trump has a good plan, coal is cheap and nuclear gives the most power for the buck. Maybe the reason the energy prices are going up is because the so-called green electric cars are consuming mass quantities of power. 

On 10/1/2025 at 8:15 PM, Alan Zweibel said:

What Is An SMR, Anyway?
Small Modular Reactors (SMRs) are the nuclear industry’s latest shiny dream. It is more hope than strategy. SMRs only exist in the imagination of the nuclear industry and its supporters. SMRs can only be found on glossy PowerPoint slides. That is why Mycle Schneider, author of the annual World Nuclear Industry Status Report, dubbed SMRs “PowerPoint reactors” in 2020. There are no engineering plans, no blueprints, no working prototypes. 

Just propaganda, not true at all. You're reading old news.

 

Russia and China have operational SMRs and are building more.

There are detailed engineering plans for several designs. Among them, the 4S from Toshiba. A project to power a small town in Alaska, but shut down by the powerful coal and oil lobbyists in Washington.

 

..."As of 2024, only China and Russia have successfully built operational SMRs.[15] Russia has been operating a floating nuclear power plant Akademik Lomonosov, in Russia's Far East (Pevek), commercially since 2020.[16] China's pebble-bed modular high-temperature gas-cooled reactor HTR-PM was connected to the grid in 2021.[17]

As of 2025, there were 127 modular reactor designs, with seven designs operating or under construction, 51 in the pre-licensing or licensing process, and 85 designers in discussions with potential site owners."...

The rest here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_modular_reactor

Some more here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-has-it-russia-building-it-india-working-on-it-the-small-nuclear-reactor-race/ar-AA1NpwlX

 

8 hours ago, Alan Zweibel said:

As a demonstration of the bubble you live in, you actually advocated for Modular Nuclear Plants. They don't even exist yet and the earliest projection for them to be actual is 2030. And the industry is littered with such predictions that failed. Interestingly enough, batter predictions failed in a way, too. They have consistently been far too pessimistic.

Simple math shows that 2030 is not all that far away.

6 hours ago, CallumWK said:

 

Why do you think I would want to visit a third world country like you. I can afford Thailand

Can you afford your home country?