Woman Ordained.

[tuky]

My sister in law recently bought herself a fake bald head (similar to a swimming cap) and she shaved her eyebrows, she will spend the next 3 montht ordained at the local Wat.

When my nephew was ordained I called him nehn Tdon, what do i call her? and have any of you guys known woman to do this?

Cheers

[sabaijai]

She won't be a monk, she'll be a woman pretending to be a monk. She will have to lie during the ordination, and that will end it right there, conceptually speaking.

Why is she taking this bizarre action?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Monks are monks. Nuns are Nuns. ( as far as I know Leith )

[tuky]

She won't be a monk, she'll be a woman pretending to be a monk. She will have to lie during the ordination, and that will end it right there, conceptually speaking.

Why is she taking this bizarre action?

She has a lot of bad luck in her life sabaijai, she really wants to change things around for herself. She has done this before too.

But it has not changed much about her life.

She won't eat beef and has placed all sort of restrictions on herself, yet fpr some reason this has not stopped her loosing money playing games or lucky numbers

I know, she seems to have things around the wrong way. Is this common behaviour amongst woman?

She is 30 years old.

Monks are monks. Nuns are Nuns.

Could it be that she is going to be a nun? if so why is she pretending to have a shaved head?

[andyinkat]

Could it be that she is going to be a nun? if so why is she pretending to have a shaved head?

Technically she cannot become a nun in Thailand as the bhikkhuni (nuns) order died out centuries ago - that's a topic of another thread here.

But she can become a novice; any ordained Buddhist (monk, nun, novice) outwardly has to look the same - i.e. shaved head and eyebrows. She would however wear white robes not saffron or brown, but the style would be identical.

The 'false shaved head' thing is a new one on me but I guess it makes some sense if she's taking vows for a short time. It is common for men/boys to take very temporary monastic vows and they shave their heads, but I guess a lay man with crew cut is more socially accepted than a woman.

As for her general motivation and behaviour, the way you describe it does seem a little strange but I think I'd have to know much more about her to make any kind of comment.

[sabaijai]

So she's not going to pose as a monk then? Wearing a bald wig would still be a deception, as shaving the head is part of the procedure in becoming a mae chee or 8-precept (atthasila) nun, according to the extensive written regs for the mae chee ordination.

It's not the same as being a samanera or novice, since novice monks take 10 precepts and wear saffron robes, while 8-precept nuns wear white.

Andy's right about the bhikkhuni lineage, although it was recently revived in Sri Lanka and there are now two or three Thai bhikkunis in Thailand.

Full Ordination for Nuns Restored in Sri Lanka

By Ven. Ani Jutima

After a hiatus of one thousand years, Theravadin women once more have the opportunity to ordain as bhikkhunis and thus become full members of the Sangha. Traditionally the Sangha is composed of fully ordained nuns (bhikkhuna), fully ordained monks (bhikkhu), novice nuns (samanera), and novice monks (samanera).

From the 3rd century BCE when King Ashoka’s son, Mahinda, and daughter. Sanghamitta, brought the ordination lineages of both monks and nuns from India to Sri Lanka, there was a long, proud history of male and female monasticism on this island.

In the 11th century, as a result of war, drought and famine, both the monks’ and nuns’ orders died out in Sri Lanka. The bhikkhu order was revived within one generation by inviting a group of bhikkhus from Siam [Thailand] who fulfilled the requirements for giving bhikkhu ordination. However, as the bhikkhuni order did not exist in any other Theravada country, the requirement that a bhikkhuni receive her ordination from a group of ten bhikkhunis of ten years standing followed by a further ceremony presided over by monks could not be met. Thus the bhikkhuni lineage lapsed.

Hence, since the beginning of the 11th century, women wishing to commit themselves to the renunciate life have had only one option: ten lay precepts. Even the ten precepts of a samaneri have been denied them, since in the Theravada tradition these can be given only by a bhikkhuni. The status of these ten precept nuns, known a Dasa Sil Matas (literally Ten Precept Mothers), is ambiguous; they are considered neither proper monastics nor lay women either.(1)

The situation in the other Theravada countries is even more difficult. It seems that in Thailand and Cambodia there never were bhikkhunis, and although they were possibly present in Burma at one time, there too the lineage did not survive. In modern times, Burma has nuns with the ten lay precepts who, like the Dasa Sil Matas in Sri Lanka, are not thought to be true nuns. In Thailand and Cambodia, even the ten lay precepts are denied women, and the nuns there are restricted to eight precepts with a corresponding diminishment of status.(2)

Thus the four-fold community of fully ordained nuns, fully ordained monks, lay women and lay men, which the Buddha clearly declared was integral to the success of the Buddhadhamma, has been absent from all Theravada countries for one thousand years.

Recently, however, after extensive research by a group of women from Sri Lanka and Europe, it was confirmed that the bhikkhuni lineage extant in Taiwan and Korea is actually of Sri Lankan origin and therefore could legitimately be used to ordain Theravada nuns and restore the bhikkhuni order.

Although I received novice ordination in the Tibetan tradition in 1993, being in my heart a Theravadin and having a long association with the Thai forest tradition, I decided recently to go to Sri Lanka to receive the samaneri vows of the Theravada vinaya school.(3) It was a very happy experience for me, and I came away deeply impressed with the situation that is developing there—impressed with the bhikkhunis and samaneris I met, and inspired by the impact the female sangha is having on their society.

Since the first ordination of Sri Lankan bhikkhunis in 1996, which was conducted in Sarnath, India by Korean monks and nuns, there have been further ordination ceremonies in Bodh Gaya and in Sri Lanka. There are now over 200 fully ordained nuns as well as many novice nuns who are planning to receive the higher ordination, which they are eligible to do after having kept their samaneri vows for two years.

Behind this amazing resurgence is an organization called Sakyadhita, Daughters of the Buddha, which was established at a conference of Buddhist women held in Bodh Gaya in 1987. Since then there have been six Sakyadhita conferences, including one held in Colombo, Sri Lanka in 1993. At the time of that conference there was strong opposition from the religious authorities of Sri Lanka even to placing the topic of bhikkhuni ordination on the agenda. However as an outgrowth of that conference, and from the exposure the Dasa Sil Matas have had to fully ordained nuns from other traditions, the aspiration to revive the Theravada bhikkhuni lineage was born. With careful negotiation over several years and the eventual support of prominent members of the (male) monastic community, the situation changed completely.

It has been said before that there is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come.

Much of the vision and energy for the project has come from Mrs. Ranjani de Silva, who attended the first Sakyadhita conference in Bodh Gaya, has been its President since 1995, and who conceived and organized the 3rd conference in Colombo.

During my visit to Sri Lanka I stayed at the Sakyadhita Training Centre established at Panadura, south of Colombo. At the Centre regular programmes are organized for the nuns on such topics as community health care, counseling skills and social development. Nuns come from small nunneries all over the island to attend these training sessions; they seem to be motivated by a strong desire to be of practical benefit in their communities. There are also young nuns attending university where they are studying Pali language, Buddhist philosophy, Buddhist history and other related topics.

In addition to providing the facilities for these training programmes, the Centre is ‘home’ to seven nuns, and I felt privileged to have the opportunity to spend time with them. Some of them are doing university studies, and the older, educated nuns teach. Neighbourhood children come for Dhamma classes; local people, often women, come to talk, to receive advice, or to participate in the evening puja.

On three occasions during my brief stay we were invited out to family homes for the daily meal. Two of these were anniversaries of family deaths, and the senior nuns conducted all the necessary ceremonies with confidence and dignity. In the past it would have been monks fulfilling these functions, so it is significant that some families are now choosing to invite nuns to officiate instead.

For me, however, it is the third invitation that is the most memorable. It came from a rather poor family living just down the lane near the Sakyadhita Centre. When the Centre was first built and the nuns began living there, the husband, known in the neighbourhood as an abusive drunkard who terrorised his family, was deeply hostile to the presence of the nuns. I was told that if he discovered his wife or three young daughters had visited the nuns, they were beaten. And there we were, two years later, being offered a meal by the whole family, sober husband included, in their living room. The reverence, the delight and the quiet pride were palpable.

Ranjani de Silva has extended an invitation to Theravada women everywhere who want to ordain to contact her, and she will do whatever she can to help. She can be contacted at:

Sakyadhita Training Centre

115/2A Sri Dhammananda Mawatha

Gorakana, Panadura

SRI LANKA

or by email: [email protected]

Edited August 1, 2004 by sabaijai

[sabaijai]

Another thought about the sister-in-law. She must know that she's free to enter a monastery on retreat for as long as she likes as a layperson. She can wear white, take the 8 precepts, and keep her hair at any length she desires.

If it's a matter of merit earned, I don't think becoming an atthasila nun - shaving the head, wearing white and taking 8 precepts in an official mae chee ceremony -- earns further merit.

If mae chee status earns 'extra' merit over regular layperson status, then seems to me she ought to be prepared to shave the head. Otherwise she could simply reside as a layperson.

[tuky]

I am not "in country" at the moment so I am relying on conversations with my wife. As I find out more about what she is doing I will let you know and perhaps ask a few more questions as am finding it quite interesting.

Thanks a lot sabaijai and andyinkat for your help, you are both most informative.

[Darknight]

Maybe it would be easyer if she investigated her current life and changed the "lucky number" expectation.

Going to a wat , shaving your head doesn't mean a thing unless you are able to see your current prediction and the reason for it, only then can you change or rise out of it.

Making merrit and keeping old habits doesn't mean squat...

The whole merrit Idea is largly overrated as well , i feel personally

[andyinkat]

Going to a wat , shaving your head doesn't mean a thing unless you are able to see your current prediction and the reason for it, only then can you change or rise out of it.

DK -Yes, BUT....

My take on this view (as someone who has lived for over a year in a monastery) is that it is potentially the ideal place in order to do just that.

A wat/temple [insert your place of worship here] is a sacred space, away from the confusion and delusion of samsara. Of course there is no automatic result here but IF she can create for herself enough space to reflect from a distance on the causes of her 'bad luck' and her reactions/responses to such events, and IF she gets appropriate support and guidance then it will be time well spent. The point of the 'uniform' (shaved head and all) is to help one to remember why one is in such a place and what there are there to do.

So I do think the idea of this lady spending time in a wat is perfectly sensible, it's just some of the details of her status and actions that leave us a bit bemused.

[sabaijai]

The whole merrit Idea is largly overrated as well , i feel personally

Try telling the Thais they over-rate religious merit ...

[Darknight]

Going to a wat , shaving your head doesn't mean a thing unless you are able to see your current prediction and the reason for it, only then can you change or rise out of it.

DK -Yes, BUT....

My take on this view (as someone who has lived for over a year in a monastery) is that it is potentially the ideal place in order to do just that.

A wat/temple [insert your place of worship here] is a sacred space, away from the confusion and delusion of samsara. Of course there is no automatic result here but IF she can create for herself enough space to reflect from a distance on the causes of her 'bad luck' and her reactions/responses to such events, and IF she gets appropriate support and guidance then it will be time well spent. The point of the 'uniform' (shaved head and all) is to help one to remember why one is in such a place and what there are there to do.

So I do think the idea of this lady spending time in a wat is perfectly sensible, it's just some of the details of her status and actions that leave us a bit bemused.

Sure it's the best place to reflect on oneselves when you're alone in peace.. totally agree with that. And it sure could be of help...

But as tuky describes it it's the typical "non buddhist" thai solution..

Let's go make merrit and spend a lot on candles and gifts and incense , bring like 5 monks to pray with us, bla bla bla...

Then walk out of the wat and start putting knife's in someone's back again, start ripping off people, ect ect.

You're not in thailand yet Andy, You'll see what i mean when you get there. A lot of Thai buddhism has become shallow just like anyother religion.

Kinda reminds me of the catholic customs in the midieval century's, pay up and your sins are forgiven

[andyinkat]

You're not in thailand yet Andy, You'll see what i mean when you get there. A lot of Thai buddhism has become shallow just like anyother religion.

Three days my friend and I'll be on my way

The town I'll be living in is known for having the most wats per head of population in the country (and no go-go bars!). Maybe you're right but I still hope and believe that I'll find something of value.

[Darknight]

Hi andy ,

Wishing you a nice flight . Of course you will find some dedicated buddhists and maybe even some teachers

my comment is more about the general population , who's buddhism is more a conditioned response taught by their parents then a understanding of it's meaning.

Exactly like catolicism experienced 20 years ago, younger generations tend shy away from that conditioning in favour of western materialistic values. But they still do "the moves" so to say.

Like this woman also i would say her prime religion is getting rich and not buddhism. But indeed maybe something will click by staying in a wat which would not happen outside.

As everybody needs to walk his path , it will surely be good for her , even if she will look funny with a bald bathing cap on

[bankei]

A lot of Thai women become Mae Chii without shaving the head. Shaving is not a requirement, it is not part of the 8 precepts.

Bankei