New Work Permit Regulations

[mango]

I tell you this, it's a crazy situation. I want to invest money in to Thailand and employ local people BUT i want to be able to call my business my own and be able to manage it hands on. is this such an un-reasonable thing to ask?

Cheers Mango

[Dakhar]

It is really sad to watch all of this. My wife years ago, asked me if she could own a car in America... I laughed and I thought the question what very obtuse...

Now I understand why she asked this question...

We just want live in Thailand and be left alone like we do here in the states. No big deal. I can invest enough in Thailand to retire early.... whats the harm in that?

[taxexile]

why did the forum sponsor or forum moderator remove 2 posts from this thread ?

one from capt canada in which sunbelt asia was criticised for painting a gloomy picture of the new rules so as to "frighten" people into using sunbelts services and thereby bumping up their profits.

and one from myself criticising capt. canada for his cynicism towards sunbelt asia.

i notice that sunbelt asia is a forum sponsor , does that mean they are allowed to make postings , but posters are not allowed to criticise them ??

i see that the postings that praise sunbelt are not removed.

what is going on here. ?

is there some kind of unwritten censorship going on in the background ?

this is just an inquiry that i would like answered please.

[Richard W]

why did the forum sponsor or forum moderator remove 2 posts from this thread ?

...

is there some kind of unwritten censorship going on in the background ?

this is just an inquiry that i would like answered please.

We have no rights. See the forum guidelines!

Term 1: You will not use thaivisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as .. defamatory ... or otherwise in violation of any law. ... Discussion of moderation issues, actions or moderation policies concerning individual cases are not allowed in the forums. Such comments should be directed to a moderator or administrator, and not discussed on the forum.

Term 3: ... Our contracts with our advertisers prohibit comments with regard to advertisements which appear on our forums. Such comments should not be posted and will be removed. ...

Disputes: ... We reserve the right to delete all content and files on our server and in our databases at any time for any reason. ...

We must hope that our despots (literally 'masters of the house') are enlightened. TIT?

[ZOVOX]

I've been looking fo a business to buy for sometime, and i was afraid the thai government would make changes like this. I'm lucky i didn't buy a business earlier. I was wondering if i can still buy business in wifes name and let her run it ?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

why did the forum sponsor or forum moderator remove 2 posts from this thread ?

one from capt canada in which sunbelt asia was criticised for painting a gloomy picture of the new rules so as to "frighten" people into using sunbelts services and thereby bumping up their profits.

and one from myself criticising capt. canada for his cynicism towards sunbelt asia.

i notice that sunbelt asia is a forum sponsor , does that mean they are allowed to make postings , but posters are not allowed to criticise them ??

i see that the postings that praise sunbelt are not removed.

what is going on here. ?

is there some kind of unwritten censorship going on in the background ?

this is just an inquiry that i would like answered please.

I cannot see your post Tax, but Capt. Canada's cynical observations are still on page 2 of this thread.

[Sunbelt Asia]

notice that sunbelt asia is a forum sponsor , does that mean they are allowed to make postings , but posters are not allowed to criticise them ??

i see that the postings that praise sunbelt are not removed.

what is going on here. ?

is there some kind of unwritten censorship going on in the background ?

Well I certainly didn't have anything to do with it and I believe in free speech. That’s what a forum is all about. As a supporter of a number of forums, I know the best advertising is when someone writes something cynical. Many more members who know you are straightforward and offer a good service, will give their viewpoint so that a reader sees that others have a different positive view and they then can make an intelligent decision.

Capt. In this case was wrong, it clearly doesn't help us. I’ll support him 1000% though, he does have the right to voice his opinion. That’s why I love a good forum, you need different views! Nuf said.

www.sunbeltasia.com

[Sunbelt Asia]

I was wondering if i can still buy business in wifes name and let her run it ?

Share rights or ownership rights still don't have to change. These laws are for the work permit, nothing has changed about you having rights as a business owner. If you are NOT working in the business, simply don't get the work permit.

However if you have 2 million Baht, which is only needed for 1 day. You'll be able to get a work permit and run the show.

If you don't have a minimum of 2 million Baht. You still have options without giving up your rights including possibly even getting a work permit. Stay tuned for new developments on the supporting docs the Labor Department will require.

By the way if your wife is Thai, you only need 1 million Baht capital as the supporter to get a work permit.

www.sunbeltasia.com

[Indo-Siam]

My turn to chime in. This thread is mass hysteria - and I think it is much ado about nothing.

We last processed work permits (submitting application, and also picking up completed WP) on Thursday 6 October - and we are picking up and submitting WP again today (Thursday 14 October).

As far as I know, EVERYTHING is business as usual.

What I suspect: there was a cabinet reshuffle on October 1st, and lots of mid-level bureaucrats have now shuffled around to line up under their mentors.

So - some new mid-level guy at Ministry of Labor just reissued old rules - largely unchanged - under his signature - as the new guy. This is just a paperwork drill - with nothing actually changing at Work Permit office level. I will know for sure in a few hours.

For everyone's information - most of these rules have already existed on paper - I am looking at the sheet I personally picked up at Work Permit office in April, and it reads (sic):

"One of the following items is required for a permit consideration:

1. A copy of an update Bank Statement of the company, which showing a current balance of more than 2 million baht"

Literally, that is how the printed rule is written - and has been written - probably for years. But this is not what they actually required - they have just required evidence of 2 million baht REGISTERED capital.

Either I am misinformed, or someone else is. I work hard to stay well-informed. I get very suspicious of scare-mongering - particularly on the basis of written Thai regulations - because I am well aware that actual practices often do not match the written rules.

The Labor Ministry - as far as I know - is still an easy place to deal with - and everything is business as ususal. I will provide an update at close today.

Cheers!

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

Bangkok

[email protected]

www.thaistartup.com

[ovenman]

I get very suspicious of scare-mongering - particularly on the basis of written Thai regulations - because I am well aware that actual practices often do not match the written rules. 

That nugget of wisdom should be immortalized in a FAQ somewhere.

[pumuckel69]

If I already have a work permit, do I also have to show the 2 Mill. Baht the next time I have to extend ?

[astral]

I don't know the exact details, but my Thai lawyer informed me that this new task force will be investigating all foreigners working in Thailand without work permits.

That sounds like an oxymoron to me?

Actually I thought the Labour Dept already performed this function.

Either way, how are they going to know someone is working, if they don't have a work permit.

Let's face it the Thai's are not renouned for their investigative skills.

[DaiMai]

A company who has a director seeking employment or an foreign employee to be hired, now must have 2 million Baht registered paid up capital per work permit.

If the employee is legally married, than they only need 50% of the capital required.

I am married to a Thai, and I own a Thai company, with 1 million baht of capital.

The capital is paid up and invested in our company house.

Previously I could not get a work permit as 2m baht was needed.

It seems to me that under the new regulations I can now apply for a work permit .

Have I got that right?

I don't mind paying the 1500baht a month tax,

in fact it will strengthen my application for a residence permit later.

I look forward to the full translation today.

Thanks Sunbelt.

[MekhongKurt]

Although Sunbelt already has received a number of messages of support, I want to chime in as well.

I've never met him, nor do I have any business or other professional association with him, his wife, any of the family or employees, etc. That said, I *do* know people who've done business with him and who say, with conviction, he's a straight shooter.

As he said, news such as this can only HURT his business, not help. I've never been inclined to invest in anything in Thailand (for all the reasons stated in this thread, and more), but were I to be interested in buying a business, I certainly would have a chat with him about it, even if we were to end up not making a deal. I, to join the chorus, appreciate his sharing of information, good OR bad.

I happen to run a web site about Bangkok myself, so I try to keep informed, too, reading here and in other threads, other boards, talking with people who've been there/done that (especially recently). My buddy from Immigration Headquarters, a senior sergeant-major, sometimes gets understandably irked with me trying to get further information from him! ;-)

It has been noted that written regulations and laws in Thailand are far from reliable guidelines. Further, a lawyer friend based here (he's American, but works for a Thai law firm), told me years ago that officials on the front line have tons of latitude, because when a new law is passed, the *old* law is NOT automatically superseded, unlike in, say, the States -- meaning the official in question, when more than one law exists, can choose which one he/she likes the most. (My lawyer friend told me the old law has to be repealed, and that the concerned arms of government often don't bother to do so.)

Just look at all the confusion regarding retirement visas. A friend of mine went to inquire how to get one. He already knew about the 800,000 baht or 65,000 baht/month requirement, the requirement to have a non-immigrant visa, etc. But when he went, he was asked to show his passport, in which he had a one-year, multiple-entry TOURIST visa. He also had his bank book showing about 100,000 in the bank. Now -- he went only to inquire how to start the process, not to apply. But the officer looked at those things and issued him a retirement visa on the spot. No, he didn't show me his bank book, but he did show me his passport, and asked me to look at every page and confirm for myself he had no non-immigrant visa. And he was right -- he didn't. Not only that, but he had paid 1,900 baht shortly before for an extension -- and the officer waived the 1,900 baht, in effect, for the retirement visa by initially taking it, then giving him the same amount as a refund for the visa extension! (And no, I can't say who he is or where this took place, as he says he'll strangle me slowly if I do!)

I'm about to apply for a retirement visa myself, and have already brought in more than enough money. But I really have no idea what to expect.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Steve,

One thing that is changed for sure, before, you were NOT required to have 2 million baht registered capital per work permit. That requirement was only if you were a foreign director applying for a work permit.

As of yesterday, any expat applying for a work permit must now have 2 million paid up registered capital. They rejected a client’s application as the corporation had only 2 million registered capital and the director had a work permit already. They said because of the new rules," the corporation now has to increase to 4 million baht for the second work permit." Before we could have had unlimited work permits with just 2 million registered capital. With our case of 270 work permits, only 2 million was needed; now it’s 2 million times 270.

Before the condition of "2 million registered paid up capital" was just one condition. If you could meet it, then fine. If you couldn't do so then you went to condition 2 which was "having 50 Thais employed". If you couldn't meet that then you went to condition 3 "Paid 5 million in taxes in the last 3 years," or condition 4 "Exporting 3 million baht last year" or condition 5 " paying 18,000 Baht personal tax per calendar year". You only had to meet ONE of these five conditions. Now they simply make it one condition "Having 2 million baht paid up capital per work permit" If you can't meet that condition. ...then you may be exempt on the registered requirement if you can meet one of these conditions (however the corporation cannot have more than 10 work permits with this exemption. )

1) Hired by an employer who paid not less than 3 million in tax last calendar year( Before was 5 million tax paid in 3 years)

2) hired by a employer in the export business, which had export revenue of not less than 30 million last year( Before was 3 million)

3) hired by a employer in the travel business, which had not brought less than 5,000 tourist to Thailand in the past year( New exemption)

4) hired by an employer who has not less than 100 Thai employees employed ( Before was 50 Thais)

The option of "having 2 million Baht registered paid up capital" is now listed as a requirement and the optional condition" paying 18,000 Baht tax in a year" is gone.

As stated we'll know very soon, will they enforce the paid up capital requirement or not?

www.sunbeltasia.com

[sting01]

One more time I must constat there is the same people that affraid other (feed the fear) and on the same time who launch new activities (thanks to Sunbelt for your advertising on the fact that now you can help us to get a new workpermit).

I will not comment , or suppose that is a relation between our fears to be kicked out LOS with our investment lost, and the way how some people run their business and make profit with us ... I am sure Sunbelt Asia is not this kind of personn.

Now, everybody is scare about the 2 millions of bath ... what a deal ... The thai law let the ability to register non material (not real if you prefer) capital as : ideas, concept, panel of potential future customers ..... You just have to find an accountant (registred one) that will legally evaluate this capital, and it will be no problem at all .... if your company is a limited partnership ....

Oh well, I forgot, mostly us expats in LOS , as we have follow the advices of the eldest of us (like Sunbelt or Indo Siam) now we rule Limited companie (he guys, both Sunbel or IndoSiam are businessman, they must have benefits, they will not advice you for free, and how they could know the law will be change). What I have say about the non material capital is totally useless for the Limited companies ... Does someone (except me since 2 years) have explain that before???????

I think, but I am unsure if it's possible to do it, it should be better to change the status of the small Limited companies in partnership companies, and registed for the 2 millions of bath, if your old companies were running really, you will have no problem to find a accountant who will certify that your potential customers (existing for the old one) is valued at 2 millions... and your life will be simplier.

My 2 cents.

If this post seems to be too much aggressive, I beg the admin to not delete it completly, the info about the partnership is an importantone, in this case or you delete just the bad part, or message me and I will do it. thanks on advance

Sting01

ROXAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANe

[Crushdepth]

I just think there's this recurring trend in Thailand like this:

i) Economy goes down the toilet => bring the foreigners in ! Red carpet ! Invest ! Spend ! Fix it !

ii) Economy starts to shine => Nationalistic fervour ! Kick the smelly foreigners out ! They're taking over ! Who needs them !

Actually, I think my home country works this way as well. It's just this time I'm on the other end of the stick (and don't like it !). I think Thailand does need to have protections in place to prevent wealthier nations coming in and buying everything up - but there's also the need to encourage a reasonable level of investment which requires giving people a reasonable level of security. Emphasis on 'reasonable'.

I don't think they've got the balance right yet, and I can't see it happening under this government.

[sas_cars]

My 5 Baht ....

I think it seems quite easier to get a WP now,If you have 2 Million Baht you could bank in just for a day.And no other requirements for keeping it alive for e.g.that 18K baht paid tax/year.Now you can employ a foreigner say only for 10K baht.And you can get a multi entry Non B for him on this,So absolutely no paying tax for a WP and a multi entry Non B

[Sunbelt Asia]

One more time I must constat there is the same people that affraid other (feed the fear) and on the same time who launch new activities (thanks to Sunbelt for your advertising on the fact that now you can help us to get a new workpermit).

The reason I posted the new rules is because they just were released. Would you prefer that I was quiet and didn't say anything about the new regulations?

Sting, you won't use our services and that’s your right. Other may and others may use other companies. Everyone in life has options. I'm a successful businessman by helping people. We charge a professional fee that is very fair for doing so. Many times on this forum, I have given my professional opinion on ways you can get a work permit without employing 4 Thais, getting the salary of 60K per month if you're an American or having paid up capital of 2 million Baht paid up capital. No charge for this advice, in fact our company pays for this forum so others will have the same right to express themselves. With no advertising, their would be no board. Who pays for the server that cost 1,500 Canadian dollars every 3 months. Think George will take it out of his pocket?

If I scared you, well that was not my intention by posting these new regulations. I was asked for my thoughts and I stated" these rules are stricter" I still feel this way but as I stated if it’s only registered capital, that won't be too bad, if they allow 25% in cash and 75% in assets... not too bad and if it doesn't have to be paid up then even better. The jury is still out on how they will interpret all this on the paid up capital.

www.sunbeltasia.com

[sabaijai]

If I already have a work permit, do I also have to show the 2 Mill. Baht the next time I have to extend ?

Echo this question. If you have a work permit that's been renewed annually for several years already, will the revised regs mean you have to start over again?

Any word, also, on whether this applies to international media correspondents? There's no way press agencies overseas are going to increase registered capital by US$50K per correspondent just to keep them writing articles about Thailand that sell on the global media market for a meagre US$75-150 a pop.

Edited October 14, 2004 by sabaijai

[Baaksida]

Hello people SunBelt is making money off making you all worry, this is how they do things I sent an earlier e-mail an hour ago and I see they didn't put it on.

This is quite strange. How in the World can we profit from this? The rules are changed and as Forum Sponsor were not suppose to let people know? Chants of " Kill the messenger!"

Thanks Sunbelt Asia, as always, for the valuable information and professional advice!

It is my guess, that professional and quality advice will get even more important for expats in Thailand in the future (look out for more tightenings if Toxin remains PM after the next general election...) So no, please don't kill the messenger!

[loveandlaughter]

Hi Sunbelt

I run a small business

What would be the possible situation if we wanted to amalgamate with another larger company and set up a work permit under their exsisting work permit for a sister business in a different province they are in Bangkok we are in ChiangMai. Would both branches need capital or only the "parent" company.

Our business is skills based with no capital required apart from building rent. Would it be possible for us to pay tax seperately to the local tax office so for all intents and purposes we are two companies but joined on paper.

[amarka]

If farangs could buy houses in their own names instead of calling it a business, then i think the would do just that.

Definitely, but that would be too much to ask for now.

I wish Thailand all the best in solving their problems too Amarka but I do not believe that we, the small-time foreign business people warrant so much unreasonable attention.

What...... Do you think that the average wage earning Thai would ever save 3 mil in their entire lifetime? The store supervisor I employ earns 8,000 a month because she is related to my girlfriend. That means she will have 2,724,000 in 30 years, and that is asumming she does not eat, does not pay for rent and never ever falls in love with anybody that runs away with all her money!

hi...

don't farangs own houses and property via businesses, I thought this was a common way around the land ownership problem? I mean they actually " buy a house " and register it as a business - so end up owning 49% on paper?

I don't think that the reforms are aimed at shop workers, they are aimed at foreigners, so Thai shop workers will continue to be poorly paid and could never start a business with 2m capital without outside help anyway, even before these reforms.

No - I guess there are too many farangs in thailand and too many that the Thai government does not want.

to me 2m capital does not seem to be a lot for a business ? and should not be a problem for even a small business if its running well? anyone going abroad and starting a business with less than that would be pretty insecure and relying on luck? and if things go wrong, might end up as the type of person thailand does not want...

amarka

[mango]

to me 2m capital does not seem to be a lot for a business ? and should not be a problem for even a small business if its running well? anyone going abroad and starting a business with less than that would be pretty insecure and relying on luck? and if things go wrong, might end up as the type of person thailand does not want...

amarka

What amarka wre you for real? knock knock is anyone home?

I am looking at starting up a business here in Thailand, i forcast that i will spend between B4.5m - B5m in renovation, equipment, lease etc and then i am told i will have to find another B2m from somewhere.

Hey i'm the little guy trying to start out and i simply could not afford to find that extra B2m, just coz people are starting up doesnt mean they have an endless supply of money.

Lets be realistic here. Tell me amarka what is better

A. I go back to England and dont invest in Thailand, i dont employ 6 full time Thai workers and i dont spend any money here for the next 30 years.

B or i do exactly the opposite to the above?

IYHO which one?

B2m may not be a lot to you but it would be to me if i have just sunk B5m in to start up.

Realy i want to know you opinion so please do answer.

Cheers Mango

[Sunny Valentine]

Mango, I may have gotten all infos wrong, but to me it seems that when you start up a company with a total initial investment of 4 or 5 Mill Bt, then you are set, as it is over the 2 Million needed. A lawyer should tell you the details, but the general routine should be similar to:

Transfer the Money (2 Mill) to an account.

Set up the company papers.

Get a WP

Spend the money (and more) on furniture, computers, workers, and so on.

But: When you start up with your last 5 Mill Baht, you might easily get in trouble as you have no more funds left for any unforseen costs, or initial periods of low earnings .....

Sunny

[sas_cars]

to me 2m capital does not seem to be a lot for a business ? and should not be a problem for even a small business if its running well? anyone going abroad and starting a business with less than that would be pretty insecure and relying on luck? and if things go wrong, might end up as the type of person thailand does not want...

amarka

What amarka wre you for real? knock knock is anyone home?

I am looking at starting up a business here in Thailand, i forcast that i will spend between B4.5m - B5m in renovation, equipment, lease etc and then i am told i will have to find another B2m from somewhere.

Hey i'm the little guy trying to start out and i simply could not afford to find that extra B2m, just coz people are starting up doesnt mean they have an endless supply of money.

Lets be realistic here. Tell me amarka what is better

A. I go back to England and dont invest in Thailand, i dont employ 6 full time Thai workers and i dont spend any money here for the next 30 years.

B or i do exactly the opposite to the above?

IYHO which one?

B2m may not be a lot to you but it would be to me if i have just sunk B5m in to start up.

Realy i want to know you opinion so please do answer.

Cheers Mango

You don't have to freeze the 2M baht in your account.You just bank in the 2M Baht in your company account and withdraw it Right Away! And do your other processes.The law doesn't state anywhere that you have to freeze your 2M Baht in your company account for a Work Permit.In fact they just wanna see that you got 2M baht in cash or Not.So Don't worry.Before starting your procedures,Register your company first and then bank in the 2M and withdraw right away.It will be enough for you to apply for work permit.And then later,do all everything u planned.YOU ABSOLUTELY DON'T NEED TO FIND ANOTHER 2M BAHT.

[Baaksida]

What...... Do you think that the average wage earning Thai would ever save 3 mil in their entire lifetime? The store supervisor I employ earns 8,000 a month because she is related to my girlfriend. That means she will have 2,724,000 in 30 years, and that is asumming she does not eat, does not pay for rent and never ever falls in love with anybody that runs away with all her money!

Let's do the math; conservative estimate of 'farangs' in LOS...

300,000 'farangs' multiplied with yearly spending per foreigner of 350,000 baht (very conservative; equivalent to spending of 6 or 7 Thai families) = 105,000,000,000 (105 billion Thai Baht).

That equals the holiday spending of 3,397,069 (additional) tourists!

(The average tourist spent 30,909 baht in LOS in 2003: 3,774 baht/day expenditure x 8.19 days stay in LOS; see TAT webpage 'Tourism Statistic'.)

Again, this is only private consumption, not business investment, taxes, etc.

The TAT could save lots of money for the many roadshows in China and Europe, if the government would actually support investment by and life of expats in Thailand.

We 'falang' do contribute to this country's economy, and are the most neclected "minority"...

[mango]

Valentine and cars, thanks for your posts, at least some people here are not just using this thread as trash.

Valentine the money i would use on my proposed project is not the last B5m i have. It is however about as much as i have that is liquid at the moment.

I have more capital tied up in a business in my girlfriends name and money in property in Europe. so i have no worrys there.

You may wonder why i complain then about the extra B2m then, well that is simple if i unlock any of that cash i will lose out in other ways.

Thanx again

Cheers Mango

[razorback]

I just received the work permit yesterday and the registration and paper work at the Labor Dept went fast and easy and the Dept spoke good english with few problems. The whole process took me 10 total days and cost less than 10,000 baht.

By the way, I received a 1 year multiple entry non-immigrant B visa in Hong Kong with no problems, stayed 1 night in HK. Just be prepared-I do not speak Thai and the company has 4Thai employees and 2 million authorized capital.

[taxexile]

from dr. p.p.

I cannot see your post Tax, but Capt. Canada's cynical observations are still on page 2 of this thread

its history now.... but.... the comments you refer to on page 2 were the posters response to having had his original post removed.

my post was a reply to his original post and was also removed.