Tiled Walkway Around House

[gdhm]

Hi All ,

I am having problems with my family Builder and have no idea what to believe now on costs.

Maybe some can give me an approximate current cost

Task: to do a tiled walkway around house (about 1 metre wide)

1) Tiles are 160 Baht per sqm

2) the cement has wire gauge mesh inside to strengthen it (builder says 30 baht per 1 sqm)

3) the cement base is about 10 cms deep above ground level.

OK what I was told a month ago.

My builder said going rate with other builders was 500 Baht per 1 sqm

My builder charged me 344 Baht saying as he is family he is not making any profit and his labour costs are cheaper than normal.

I did about 60% walkways around house.

A month later (3 days ago) I asked for some extra walkway to be added (about 5% more)

This time he has calculated 727 Baht per 1 sqm. He insists this is correct and he is not overcharging BUT he insisted the figures a month ago were correct at that time .

I have explained they cannot be both correct, and that prices do not change by over 100% in only one month.

Additionally, I said to him that if he is correct other builders charge a going rate of 500 Baht per 1 sqm then how come he is now charging me 727 per 1 sqm.

This is not about catching him out or seeking an argument (although something is clearly wrong) but about knowing what is likely to be true and what is untrue

Part of my concern is that I know the builder grossly underestimated costs for building my house and that adds to my fear that maybe he is trying to recoup some working capital by overcharging on new additional requirements

Any advice on current expected costs per 1 sqm would be appreciated as I am considering doing the last 35% of walkways around my house . Clearly the costs between 344 Baht, 500 baht and 727 Baht per 1 sqm is highly relevant and I need to know if my builder is the correct or expensive option.

Oh by the way how common is it for a builder to put walkway tiles outside the kitchen back door and adjacent 3 meters to match the kitchen tiles and not the match the tiles where he has done other walkways, front of house, drive, and car port tiles.

My wife says "beautiful". I said "crazy who does that, unless trying to use up over ordered kitchen tiles and what does she think it will look like if I decide to completely tile walkways around the house where the two different styles of tiles meet on two sides.

Kind regards

Dave

[Cuban]

Oh by the way how common is it for a builder to put walkway tiles outside the kitchen back door and adjacent 3 meters to match the kitchen tiles and not the match the tiles where he has done other walkways, front of house, drive, and car port tiles.

Elsewhere on TV this morning I read a comment asking, "..do you have to tell Thai builders to do everything - can't they think for themselves.." or similar, I might suggest that you do have to tell them everything and exactly the steps to take to achive your desired result. With the tiles I would guess that the tiles in question were either cheaper or availible where as the others were not? Or the converstation about tiles took place in the kitchen and the 'kitchen tiles' were pointed to when the word 'tiles' was mentioned. I have found with Thai builders and other installers/ electricians for example that a conversation (sometimes translated) supported with a picture or diagram that the tradesman takes with him (keep a copy) does get the message across. Tell them what you are going to tell them, tell them, tell them what you have told them. Ask for them to repeat back to you what you told them.

The repeat back stage is left out because usually the final farang comment is, "...do you understand?" - to which the reply will always be, "...yes boss!"

Where possible I ask to be told when the guy starts work, so I can see that he is starting with the right bits and then visit during the process. Yes this takes my time and I shouldn't have to do this but it does save my time/money in the long run.

As for your figures quoted above, is there a differance in the length of walkway that he is now quoting for, where you getting a discount rate for the materials because of bulk or special rate on tiles that were end of a line - maybe why the new tiles are not the same? Is there broken brick / stone mixed in the 10cm cement base, it would be better that it were concrete (cement with coarse aggregate) rather than just pure cement. One "Thai" method I have read about here is the use of strong dried bamboo in place of steel re-enforcing wires for use in concrete paths etc. where there will not be heavy loading - ie not for vehicle driveways. (Just read about this - never tried it. ) This might bring your costs down a little.

Final thought about mixing walkway tiles with kitchen tiles, depending on the design of the house/grounds having the area directly outside the kitchen designed as an extention of the color and design theme seems like a good one to make the area flow, if you are using that space for outside cooking, BBQ - pizza oven etc.

[Rimmer]

I have tiles all around my house, they really finish the house off and give it an expensive feel. Around 300 sq mtrs of the things in all Including the drive, it's cheaper than a stamp floor which is about Baht 400 a meter and sand wash which is Baht 300 to 350 a meter. On top of a base that is!

As for matching kitchen tiles with walkway tiles you decide what you want not the builder, if you don't like them pull em up, I do all the time. cost is fairly small. Builder probably got a special price for that tile or has some left over, you got to look at so you decide, if you don't like them now you will hate them in six months.

I can't help much on the laid down cost of the concrete base as it's a long time since I did any of that but the following snippets my help.

Laying floor tiles is baht 120 +- 10 baht a meter

Bird Cement is now 110 a bag, last year I was paying 90 a bag.

Steel has gone up considerably but you do not mention the gauge. You may even be using the steel mat which is very costly compared to the steel wired together.

It's not cheap to put down a proper base with steel in it, 10 cm is right for a drive and it should be laid over a sand or granite base. Walkaways around the house can be 5 or 6 cm.

Cost of a 10 cm base with steel last year was 600 baht a meter.

[Farma]

Just a little hint, non slip tiles are the way to go. There's nothing worse than slipping and cracking your skull after a rain shower.

[gdhm]

Thank you all,

I agree with the non slip tiles and the ones I deliberately selected for the walkways are rough imitation pebbles.

The kitchen tiles have also been selected not to be mirror finish as I am well aware grease, oil and water can easily get on a kitchen floor at times. Obviously the kitchen cannot be as irregular surfaced as outside tiles without looking strange.

No I do not intend bar-b-ques that side of the House or Thai kitchen or cooking outside the internal kitchen so there is no need or logic for Kitchen tiles there.

Cost of walkways per sqm

I did not realise how many considerations go into paths and walkways and I thank you all for enlightening me.

30 mins ago my builder offered 400 Baht per sqm and to change over the kitchen tiles to the same as the rest of the walkway and complete the walkways all around the house . He said if I want cheaper I must go elsewhere total cost for final part 16,000 baht.

I am totally content and have paid him 20,000 baht

The Builder just does NOT get what I was concerned about (or will not admit he does) Even my wife seems to have difficulty in grasping what I feel is obvious.

It was NOT the true cost that bothered me (unless hyper expensive) but the now 3 different pricing policies for identical work.

The first was (I knew was a special price) 344 Baht and unlikely to be repeated

The third of 400 Baht I certainly am not complaining about.

It was the second I was concerned about namely 5.5 sqm at 727 Baht a sqm that had me bothered. He maintained that as being accurate but had he used that pricing policy for the third quotation it would not have cost me 16,000 Baht but 29,000 baht.

looking at Fact that my builder now is quoting only 400 baht per 1 sqm for the last 40 sqm suggests to me (even if not to my wife) that I was 100% correct that there was something very fishy with his 727 Baht pricing per sqm (I suspect it was inflated to try and recoup some losses on other costings and he hoped I was not on the ball to notice it as 4000 was not very much.

Builder is not my favourite person at present anyway.

He got his quotation costings so wrong last February (and completion date) I have had to pay an extra 150,000 Baht, drop another 75,000 baht of agreed items and accept inferior or unwanted changes to the architect's plan to avoid him having to knock down parts and redo.

The windows he has put in are clearly very thin aluminium and rubbish (no doubt all that he could afford).

Even worse he agreed 79,000 baht for grills on windows and doors with a company who he did not know and was very cheap (paying 40,000 baht up front).

The work they did and fitting of just 2 doors has to be seen to believed. Even my builders said to my wife he hates them for what the are doing and eh would like to kill them (he is not serious of course).

I told the builder to send them away as I will have them doing no more damage in my house. Grills are incorrect sizes, they are damaging the surrounding walls, sloping the grills metal is dented and design inconsistent and welding rough and ugly, the door handle plate is 1 cm taller than the door cross section it is fitted to etc. ABSOLUTE NIGHTMARE!!!

They asked for a final 10,000 Baht on top of the 40,000 baht. They were told by my wife and builder they can discuss with police if they like. They backed off and even admitted verbally to my wife they had not done a good job.

Ok I said to my wife we have lost 40,000 baht of my money thats gone but at least my builder can use the unpaid 39,000 Baht to wards the new grills I will now order form another company

SILLY ME!!! No!!!!! My Builder only has 10,000 Baht left and did not know how he was going to find the money to pay the rest (ask me or borrow from his family I assume).

So in reality I must pay for new grills now agreed 105,000 Baht ANDI will only get 10,000 baht from my Builder He has cost me 69,000 Baht on these grills.

I am NOT A HAPPY MAN. and where is the "sorry I screwed up" (AGAIN). NON EXISTENT of course.

I did not even get an mild apology for throwing away 69,000 Baht. My life savings are now down to only 300,000 baht plus 159,000 baht needed for my Visa which I cannot touch (I had better not get ill). Had the Builder got his original quotations correct and not kept screwing up I would have at least double that amount.

Oh I found out today that, although 7 weeks behind on schedule my builder broke off for 4 to 5 days, 6 weeks ago to do a walkway for a good friend. We had agreed at contract time with me he would not do ANY jobs whilst doing my house until finished. Builder did not tell me, or ask if OK.

My wife found out 3 weeks ago and read the riot act to him about promises and trust. She decided to keep that from me but let it slip in an argument about him always being missing and not doing any quality control.

Our house was started first and the other (for the friend's English son-in-Law) was started and built by Piman Group but they were not doing the walk ways. Seems it was decided helping his friend get his house finished fast and before mine was more important than honouring his commitment to me and his niece. Meanwhile we pay extra rent and the couple waiting to move into our rental are paying even more extra rent than us.

Regretfully my wife keeping the information from me, caused another argument between my wife and me about keeping salient secrets form me just to protect her in the wrong Uncle (she does this a times when family involved) . I suggested to her that her primary allegiance should be with me not him just as mine is 100% with her and my stepson.

Talk about taking on the whole Thai family. I said to my wife no wonder there are arguments. Added on to the language barriers I get deliberate half truths or lies all the time, even when I ask all the correct questions and my wife (in the middle) tends to pity her family (even when not in agreement with them or angry with them).

I could tell you 20 CRAZY unbelievable things my builder has done *that I would not expect a child of 10 to do) but I will spare you all but one more (wish I had been spared).

Black plastic cesspit is split in 2 places at the top due to very rough treatment (hammering retaining wooden beams holding it in place as hole was flooded). I said I want a new one. Builder said ITS NO PROBLEM IT will be OK when concrete cover on top. You NO WORRY".

My wife OF COURSE accepted this.

I feel why should I start off with a damaged cesspit from new or risk it. I am no expert to know if what he says is reasonable.

Of course the Builder is out of money and unable to buy a new one anyway and I cannot keep funding extra funds to pay for his mistakes.

I do not like trusting anybodies word when lack of money is an issue.

Luckily the 2 splits are around the lid area and well ABOVE the IN and OUT pipes. I told my wife any smells and he WILL replace with a new one sand enjoy the smelly messy job doing so.

TIT & LOS (hmmmmmmmm...

Thanks again Guys for the advice and info.

Dave

[Cuban]

Even worse he agreed 79,000 baht for grills on windows and doors with a company who he did not know and was very cheap (paying 40,000 baht up front).

As I read those words I could envisage what was to follow. The money that has gone needs to be seen as an education that you have paid for.

The screw-ups follow down the line with contractors being screwed by sub-contractors that will not be as skillfull as the people that are directly contracted by you. Think about Thai 'Face', your contractor will not seek a task to be done by someone that has a better skill set than themselves.

I am making this post to point out something about Thai builders that might not be obvious but when understood explains their actions and quaility of work encountered.

IME Thai builders in general are very poor at control of money, they rely on new work to pay for finishing the previous project to ensure the final payment is made. When up front money is provided for a new project - their profit margin is taken from that payment, when I say taken I mean that they see that figure of EG 10,000 Baht as the final profit for the whole project so that is in their pocket not yours. It's spent as part of their disposable income. Therefore there is no futher motivation on their part to complete that project to your specification as they already have the profit from doing it. Doing anything more is just taking their time - not making them money.

It's the airport effect all over again, once outside the flash international airport, Thailand is not the first world country that the airport makes people think it is. Builders do require supervision and more guidance than 'normal' in doing tasks that they should be able to do without hand holding.

Talking of security grills, the other day I started thinking about getting my own welding kit, I haven't hammered metal about since I was a kid - but I don't think my work would be of a lesser quaility that Somchai.

Why is this forum called DIY?

[mdechgan]

The going rate for tiling is about 150 - 250 baht per sqm. Excluding cement and sand. Just labor.

However this is only valid for areas around 100 sqm. If less than that the price will increase even more because less sqm, less labor. Sometimes its not worth it to do little jobs because the petrol going back and forth everyday and hiring the Burmese, Isaan workers just isn't worth it. However if tiling a large building or office like 500 sqm the price can go down to about 90 - 100 baht per sqm. Even more so if they can live and stay on the worksite.

Cement and sand is aout 50 baht per sqm.

However many builders are poor at calculating costs. They just want the job and work. However usually they miscalculate. If the costs become more than the profit they just walk out on the job. This usually happens when the time required to do the work is way more than was estimated. So everyday the work is overdue or behind schedule he has to pay the workers each day from his own pocket. Cost go up but the price was already negotiated.

[Hssl]

Not quite the same as building your own house but any sub contractors that work for me have to sign a contract which lists things like:

Plan / design of work to be done

Start / end date

Cost / payment plan

Cuts for late or poor work.

I looking at maybe building a house in the next few months and for sure all contractors will be signing this!

[mdechgan]

Not quite the same as building your own house but any sub contractors that work for me have to sign a contract which lists things like:

Plan / design of work to be done

Start / end date

Cost / payment plan

Cuts for late or poor work.

I looking at maybe building a house in the next few months and for sure all contractors will be signing this!

I tried this before. It helps but isn't ironclad.

If they want to walk out they just pickup and leave.

I had this subcontractor just leave and took off once. I mean he left, even left his workers.

So I had to pay the workers myself for them to finish the work. It was a good experience though.

So instead of hiring a sub contractor I just paid the workers and paid for all the materials by myself. It was really worth it. I think I saved like 50% off the total price. My neighbor paid like 2 - 3 times as much for doing the same work. Workers cost between 150-250 baht per day. 500 baht per day for the head foreman. Cement was only like 100 baht per bag and sand was 300 baht per cubic meter. I personally believe 80% of the contractors out there are incompetent and just downright overcharging.

[Deke]

Not quite the same as building your own house but any sub contractors that work for me have to sign a contract which lists things like:

Plan / design of work to be done

Start / end date

Cost / payment plan

Cuts for late or poor work.

I looking at maybe building a house in the next few months and for sure all contractors will be signing this!

Is anyone aware of any standard contract "forms" for residential construction projects?

[Beardog]

Not quite the same as building your own house but any sub contractors that work for me have to sign a contract which lists things like:

Plan / design of work to be done

Start / end dateCost / payment plan

Cuts for late or poor work.

I looking at maybe building a house in the next few months and for sure all contractors will be signing this!

If you are not a general contractor -you may want to reconsider. The last 4 jobs I have seen done by people with iron clad payment schedules, stipulations or dockings for late or poor work as you mentioned are a sure way to fail & lose the farm when building. The contractor or sub will pump you for a high down & extras (normal) & before you know it your half way paid in on a house 1/4 or less done.I am a licensed contactor in California , Nevada, & Illinois in the U.S. I would sooner play russian roulette as it is a safer game . You might come out a winner!

This is LOS & dogging out on a contract is very easy & too fussy will usually leave you holding the bag.

Your idea would work excellent in a western environment, but what you got to understand is that while they might say the work is guaranteed there is no real way to sue them. Most Somais or Somchais just roll em up & leave you up to dry.

If you are a contractor then you know the risk you are taking. Last American acquaintance I know, the contractor gave him an incredible offer on his bid. Prices from 1980 got him for 4.5 million baht The house is 1/4 finished & they rolled em up, He was a doctor & thought he was the lucky farang & things were going to be different for him......NOT.

He even asked for advice from another general contractor in England. The advise was the same to be an affective boss & to Hire a contractor or a subcontractor you need to be the general. If you are the risks are far greater here than in your home country. There is no insurance- Bonding or law here. Not trying to a buzzkill but I see serious repercussions in what you are going to try to attempt as even people in the same trades that move here are getting hacked by the unscrupulous tactics in the building trade.And I am not saying to hire a Farang that employ Thai crew as the results are usually the same -except the farang will make his digit over the price of project.

You might as well write the contract on toilet paper at least you can reuse later. The test house we built the contractor expired his draws before completion. We did 40+% of the work ourselves to complete as I didn't want to have to get another Somai with another Wah Wah later.

Check out the other sites as well, most will advise extreme caution in being the general in LOS.

[gdhm]

Not quite the same as building your own house but any sub contractors that work for me have to sign a contract which lists things like:

Plan / design of work to be done

Start / end date

Cost / payment plan

Cuts for late or poor work.

I looking at maybe building a house in the next few months and for sure all contractors will be signing this!

I did all that but it made no difference. and I constantly here of similar situations. My Builder is clearly in Many breaches despite his genuine intention to do a good job and keep his promises. He is an honourable and likable man he is just totally disorganised on quality control and price calculations and dealing with the unexpected or non Thai standards.

Many Builders here seem to think the architects plan is purely a start off point that they can and will change (by intent/or often in error) at will SO BEWARE - you need to be the full time foreman and quality controller with many builders if you are to get what you contracted for. You need to understand and recognise a problem quickly at the outset of something going wrong. You will find it common for a builder to say

1) "No problem its OK. We have not finished yet. You will see its OK when we have" or

2) "If not correct we can adjust at end".

Beware some adjustments at the end my builder would have needed to do would have been MAJOR and costly and in one case impossible had I left it to the end. Do not accept these answers as it is always cheaper to get right first time or correct in the infancy of an error than later.

Do not assume the builder is an expert on everything and knows best.

I am an Office worker but but using my intelligence I have been proved correct when in disagreement with the builder or worker all but 2 times. It should have been the other way around.

Many workers I have found do not seem to understand basic Western building standards/logic or techniques (unless they have worked on projects intended to be sold to Westerners, foreigner or richer Thais. I do jot blame them as this is Thailand and a fact (but you need to understand this fact)

My Builder seems to only know mostly what he has always done for building Thai houses . He is mostly not up with modern developments or materials or methods (Qcon blocks or similar for example, need for grounding electrical wiring).

This MAY be OK for a standard Thai house (but not for Western standard house and safety standards)

For example I contractually insisted on ground wiring throughout the house including lighting. I got it only in plug outlets and when I noticed and challenged I was told "not necessary for lighting" - INCORRECT, not as safe and often inaccurate some light fittings clearly stipulate the need for a ground connection.

It has now been corrected, but would have been much easier and cheaper for the builder (as the ceilings and insulations were in place) if he had done as he was contracted to do in the first place . I HAD reminded him (via my wife) MANY, MANY MANY times about this as electrical safety is my No.1 priority.

I am a belt and braces type of person and I assume very little when it comes to my builder automatically understanding or doing things erectly (but I could not and did not want to be at the site all and every day for 9 months).

Hssl, I feel a contract although vital and a good start may not be as good and as valuable as you may think in reality in Thailand should the builder fail to honour it properly. Many occasions he is an individual or very small and not a big company. Would you be able to find him if he disappeared for example?

After you have paid ALL your lawyer fees etc. and spent much time to take him to court maybe you will win (but you cannot count on Thai courts being as the West's)

OK , lets say YOU WON. What are you going to do when as in many cases the builder has no money. Sure, maybe you can get him to sell his house if he owns one (usually very poor quality and old) and kick him and his family out on the streets knowing Thailand's social welfare state will not look after them and maybe other family members cannot afford to do so either.

I feel FEW would feel comfortable winning justice at such a cost and most would not be be able to bring themselves to do it, even when legally 100% in the right or for revenge.

Then there is also a slight risk you may be at risk of physical harm in retaliation - Desperation, need and the law are not always good bed fellows.

My advice on a contract (based upon my experience is make sure it is as water tight and for a baby to understand as possible IN THAI.

Make sure the contractor is not guessing prices and HAS done his homework and checked RECENT prices or you buy all the materials yourself,

That everything agreed in in writing (Thai and English/or you own language).

That the architects plan must be followed 100% exactly unless mutually agreed changes are later made in writing.

Watch out on the guarantee. Usually 1 year maximum if any at all. If the Builder is small time he may not be around to support it anyway.

I have a 10 year one. Fat lot of good that will do me I suspect !!!! To be fair I know the builder will repair if he feels something did not last as it should. He may not be as organised or competent in some areas as I expected but his intentions ARE honourable at all times and I do not doubt this as I have known him 2½ years at close quarter.

In my experience. Instructions are and were never written down by my builder (despite me asking my wife to tell him to do so)and he relies on his memory always. Not only that but even when HE remembers he forgets to tell the actual worker on the day of the task.

Golden rule is if you cannot oversee for huge amounts of time BE AFRAID or be willing to compromise or be relaxed about what you actually end up with.

My Builder has 40 years experience in building houses. The structure is excellent and VERY sound (no corners cut) but his measuring, logic in thinking out problems, adherence to the architects plan, writing down instructions and attention to finer detail are not his strengths.

TIT but I still love it and its people (maybe not builders for a while)

Dave

[Rimmer]

Not quite the same as building your own house but any sub contractors that work for me have to sign a contract which lists things like:

Plan / design of work to be done

Start / end date

Cost / payment plan

Cuts for late or poor work.

I looking at maybe building a house in the next few months and for sure all contractors will be signing this!

[Cuban]

...for sure all contractors will be signing this!

Can you read 'Micky Mouse' in hand-written Thai?

That the architects plan must be followed 100% exactly unless mutually agreed changes are later made in writing.

Assuming that they can read them! The issue is that the architect wants 10mm rebar to be used and knows that the builder will just use 5mm so the architect specifies 15mm etc. As mentioned above quaility control during the build is key... ...are we still just talking about a walkway?

Oh! - talking about plans - two sets, one for 'approval' a second set to build from.

[Pushit]

We just recently paid 140 Baht per metre labour only, we provided the cement/sand/grout etc. Was quoted 250 Baht per metre for turnkey completion. This is in Bangkok.

[mdechgan]

We just recently paid 140 Baht per metre labour only, we provided the cement/sand/grout etc. Was quoted 250 Baht per metre for turnkey completion. This is in Bangkok.

Yes like I mentioned. The going rate is about 150 baht per sqm excluding cement sand, or 250 including. However if its a small the rate might go higher. If its large one can bargain the price down.

[Hssl]

Laugh you may - BUT The same contract I use with sub-contractors is the same contract that my company uses for work -stamped, signed, witnessed and very legal. Of course this wouldn't stand up with a local Somchai with no company - but I only use real companies not some buffoon 'handyman'

The very same contract just got me the final payment on a project where the 'project management' company were trying to welch on the final payment.

Oh and where did i get this magical contract - only the biggest importer of pro electrical equipment in Thailand.

What ever - my backs covered............................ is yours?

[Gary A]

To eliminate MOST of the problems, get a quote for labor only. You buy all the materials yourself. Keep an eye on the quality of the labor and if it suits you, you are home free.

[mdechgan]

To eliminate MOST of the problems, get a quote for labor only. You buy all the materials yourself. Keep an eye on the quality of the labor and if it suits you, you are home free.

I agree. Get a quote for the labor only. If possible get an itemized quote . How many people, how many days. Most quotes are just ballpark figures and most overpriced. Just ask how many people, how many days and pay at the end of each day with 100% supervision.