Christian Speaker Claims Buddhism Is A Marketing Ploy By Lucifer.

[rockyysdt]

A friend of mine finally persuaded me to come along to a lecture tonight conducted by a Christian group.

Tonight's topic was titled: Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, & Hinduism, all roads lead to Rome, hence my interest.

Through his presentation the speaker supplied evidence which he believed to be proof that all these religions (his words) were Lucifer's marketing ploy, leading people away from the truth (Jesus Christ).

He linked them all symbolically with the moon (crescent) & sun (star), star of David & the swaztika, & linked them with the Freemasons organisation describing them all as devil worship.

Buddha was described as anthropomorphic (human characteristics to a non-human being, a natural and supernatural phenomena), who could not be seen, heard or touched.

The speaker further claimed that the only way one could tell where the Buddha had been was through his footprints.

These footprints included pagan depictions of the sun on the heal & sole and swaztikas on each toe.

This was his evidence that Buddhism was tied to the other religions.

He further tied Buddhism to the other religions via the Yin & Yang symbol which he described as a variation of the sun symbol, and further proof of sun worship.

He had hoped no one in the audience practiced meditation & warned against it as very dangerous.

I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

Sadly most of the the audience appeared to absorb it all as fact without any kind of questioning.

Isn't Yin & Yang an ancient Chinese symbol & nothing to do with Buddhism?

Was the Buddha described as being anthropomorphic?

Did he roam the countryside in invisible form leaving footprints behind which included sun & swaztika symbols?

[Orac]

Erm - what exactly were you expecting to hear at a lecture by a christian group specifically talking about other religions?

[Svenn]

Isn't Yin & Yang an ancient Chinese symbol & nothing to do with Buddhism?

Was the Buddha described as being anthropomorphic?

Did he roam the countryside in invisible form leaving footprints behind which included sun & swaztika symbols?

This speaker sounds like a complete nutcase to me, no need to concern yourself with the musings of such lowly creatures. Yes, yin and yang has nothing to do with Buddhism unless your talking about later hybrid forms of Chinese Buddhism. Anthropomorphic is the wrong word for what this guy was trying to talk about- it means ascribing human characteristics to animals (like thinking your dog is concerned about your feelings or has human emotions).... the Buddha was described as a million different things in dozens of different countries in dozens of different traditions, people need to get away from this notion that there's one "Buddhism" out there that has uniform characteristics. It's my guess though that the original Gautama never described himself as being anything more than just a regular person, but later Pali scribes undoubtedly added their own thoughts.

[SeerObserver]

It's so wonderful that he took the time to actually learn about something before hosting an event such as this to criticize it. Otherwise he would look foolish in front of any audience members who knew anything.

[eddthened]

Isn't Yin & Yang an ancient Chinese symbol & nothing to do with Buddhism?

Was the Buddha described as being anthropomorphic?

Did he roam the countryside in invisible form leaving footprints behind which included sun & swaztika symbols?

This speaker sounds like a complete nutcase to me, no need to concern yourself with the musings of such lowly creatures. Yes, yin and yang has nothing to do with Buddhism unless your talking about later hybrid forms of Chinese Buddhism. Anthropomorphic is the wrong word for what this guy was trying to talk about- it means ascribing human characteristics to animals (like thinking your dog is concerned about your feelings or has human emotions).... the Buddha was described as a million different things in dozens of different countries in dozens of different traditions, people need to get away from this notion that there's one "Buddhism" out there that has uniform characteristics. It's my guess though that the original Gautama never described himself as being anything more than just a regular person, but later Pali scribes undoubtedly added their own thoughts.

Correct - anthropomorphism is exactly as you say: ascribing human characteristics to non-human (a value judgement in itself) entities, ideas, objects, etc. Hello Kitty, for instance, is an example of an anthropomorphic entity who, though probably not human, has enjoyed a long and lucrative pop culture career and is still creaming it (pun intended). Another example would be orthodox religions. For instance, believing that Zeus had human characteristics (when not busy being a bull or a swan or whatever guise in order to 'pull' - Why not just say "Hi, nymph! We haven't been introduced, but I'm king of the gods...."), whilst still being immortal and super-human in many respects.

Silly, isn't it. Here's another one. Did you know, for instance, that their is one belief system that not only anthropomorphizes their immortal, invisible godhead to the extent of addressing him (not her) as Father on almost every occasion, but also insist that he (or 'He' if you prefer) has a real, not figurative, son, who looks just like you or me (assuming you are male, have shoulder-length blond hair, a tidy little beard, and are in your early mid-thirties)? Look it up. There's another member of the family who is not anthropic in nature, which proves ................errr, whatever you want it to prove, I guess.

Anyway, back to the story. Sun symbols? You mean those round things - what are they called? - circles. That's it. Circles. A very unusual visual motif, if I may say so. And [sic] swaztikas - another incredibly (almost devilish?) design, so rare and complex that it only appears in the graphic traditions of some five continents, including its past use as the Carlsberg logo, an Icelandic shipping company logo, Hopi Indian migration maps, and the Finnish air forces insignia (although this had to be abandoned, as well as plentiful use in Hindu and Buddhist iconography (I'll give you that). Obvious the swastika has fallen into a certain disrepute lately (ignoring its popularity with biker gangs and 70's punks), but giving it a 2,500 retrograded bad rep would be like saying "the churches of Europe proudly display KKK symbols - and yes, before you get started on that one, I know that J.W.s eschew The Cross, and many other fundamentalists prefer a fish as their 'symbol'. Symbols are what we make them. That's why they are called symbols. They have no intrinsic meaning (sorry - they don't. Any more than numbers can be 'lucky').

I feel a creeping jealousy that I missed this presentation. Will it be rerun at any point? I am sure the silence in the room was down to the amount of Kleenex the audience had stuffed into their mouths out of politeness to the speaker. But I wasn't there, so can only speculate.

As for all other (i.e. competing for your cash) religions being the invention (or marketing ploy?) of Lucifer - if we are going down the comparative theology route, then there is one tradition that stands head and shoulders above all others in detailed study of, and obsession with Lucifer/Satan/Beelzebub/Old Nick, and in using him as a poster-demon to fill the pews (and the collection plate) for centuries, and there has to be a reason for this. Isn't Eternal Damnation a pretty good marketing ploy? I wonder what the brand value of that one is?

Anyway - I wasn't there, and I am very sad to have missed what must have been a truly intriguing evening. I'll be there next time, for sure, and I'll make sure to bring Rover and Tibbles as well, because its almost as if they understand these things.....

[fabianfred]

I bet he didn't invite questions from the audience after.......

[SeerObserver]

I bet he didn't invite questions from the audience after.......

No doubt. He would have looked like a fool if anyone even mildly knowledgeable took issue with what he said.

[rockyysdt]

I bet he didn't invite questions from the audience after.......

The audience were largely made up of their flock.

There were many gasps when the speaker dropped figures such as the Buddha, Pope etc, as demon worshipers with his evidence.

No interaction occurred between the speaker & the audience with the exception of eliciting answers he had already given moments before.

The speaker indicated that people had filters which stopped them from taking in the truth.

He said there was the truth & the higher truth.

The truth is what an organization wants you to know, and the higher truth is only for initiates who were ready to receive.

He indicated that Buddhism as well as Catholicism, Kabbalism, & Freemasonry, has different levels for practitioners and this is why the Buddha won't reveal what enlightenment is. They give you enough to continue with your practice until you are ready. The speaker knows it to be the greater truth or introduction to Lucifer.

The real truth which those at the top know, is that Lucifer will prevail over Christ, and that Buddhism is the bate to lead believers down the wrong path.

The reason for secrecy is that you just tell the followers what they want to hear.

This speaker does the world circuit but lives in South Africa.

I may be able to track down a link to his DVD's.

[geriatrickid]

Many people claim to be Christians and even come equipped with a bible and a bunch of memorized passages. There are many monk's that drink, sexually cavort about and sell bogus amulets.

The chap certainly wasn't a Christian anymore than an insincere monks is Buddhist.

Do you condemn everyone that practices Buddhism because some people are frauds?

I didn't think so.

One cannot blame all Christians because one man is an ignorant ass.

Go in peace and may the Force be with you.

[camerata]

Sounds like the regular Christian evangelical propaganda to me. I've heard this kind of thing from Thai Christians too, that Buddhism is the work of Satan, designed to lure people away from God.

[Xangsamhua]

He said there was the truth & the higher truth.

The truth is what an organization wants you to know, and the higher truth is only for initiates who were ready to receive.

Yes, the guy seems to be a wacko. Simple people, e.g. some Bible Christians, may have some warped ideas, too, but they may not be wackos - just credulous. However, the idea that the major religions have (1) exoteric teachings, that can be roughly understood and accepted by most of the faithful, and (2) esoteric teachings at a more demanding level that can only be grasped by an elite, is one that has been put forward by some well-known students of religion, e.g. Frithjof Schuon, Rene Guenon and Ananda Coomaraswamy. However, (in my understanding) discussion of some pretty arcane or speculative topics in religion and theology doesn't mean that there's a conspiracy going on and that one has to be admitted to a secret society to access it. It's just that some ideas probably are beyond the reach or desire-to-know of the average believer/practitioner. It also doesn't necessarily mean that the ideas are any better than the exoteric teachings.

A recent edition of Schuon's 1953 book, The Transcendent Unity of Religions, has a Foreword by Huston Smith, a highly regarded student of religions. He speaks well of it. I found it a bit too dense myself, but students of religion probably should have a look at it.

[buffcoat]

Just another fundamentalist nut job....the sort that burns Harry Potter books

[fabianfred]

Buddhism has its secret too...... practise practise practise...

our lazy side tries to look for a simpler, less demanding way.... but there isn't one...

no special mantras or being empowered by someone important can make a short-cut

even if the real live Buddha was beside us he couldn't make us into Ariyachon

only tell us how best to practise ourselves

nobody gets to Nirvana by accident....only hard work....

I feel sorry for that speaker....he is denying himself liberation...and creating karma for himself by teaching wrong views...

Having wrong views yourself is one thing... but causing others to have them is another matter.

Just as the greatest gift is the Dhamma... and we get much merit by opening another person's eyes to it.

Edited May 7, 2009 by fabianfred

[LoveBug]

Does that idiot even know that Jehovah was a lunar god, and if he was, then Christianity which springs from Judaism also worships the lunar god? And what is that about Buddha's footprints? That fella will be torn to pieces and eaten in the bardo.

[camerata]

It's my guess though that the original Gautama never described himself as being anything more than just a regular person, but later Pali scribes undoubtedly added their own thoughts.

According to a famous passage in the Dona Sutta, when asked if he was a human being, the Buddha answered:

No, brahman, I am not a human being [...] Just like a red, blue, or white lotus — born in the water, grown in the water, rising up above the water — stands unsmeared by the water, in the same way I — born in the world, grown in the world, having overcome the world — live unsmeared by the world. Remember me, brahman, as 'awakened.'

[camerata]

Buddhism has its secret too...... practise practise practise...

our lazy side tries to look for a simpler, less demanding way.... but there isn't one...

I've been called a fundamentalist ( ) but that's pretty much what I think too.

[tranquillize]

It's my guess though that the original Gautama never described himself as being anything more than just a regular person, but later Pali scribes undoubtedly added their own thoughts.

According to a famous passage in the Dona Sutta, when asked if he was a human being, the Buddha answered:

No, brahman, I am not a human being [...] Just like a red, blue, or white lotus — born in the water, grown in the water, rising up above the water — stands unsmeared by the water, in the same way I — born in the world, grown in the world, having overcome the world — live unsmeared by the world. Remember me, brahman, as 'awakened.'

I think the Buddha was explaining that he had transcended beyond attachment to the concept of physical being. He taught that the material world is illusory in essence, therefore it can be said that none of us are actually physical human beings, rather we are just attached to the perception that we are.

[camerata]

I think the Buddha was explaining that he had transcended beyond attachment to the concept of physical being. He taught that the material world is illusory in essence, therefore it can be said that none of us are actually physical human beings, rather we are just attached to the perception that we are.

It really depends on what word was used for "human being" and what exactly it meant in the Buddha's time. But my interpretation of the Buddha's answer is that he was emphasizing the huge difference between the unenlightened and the enlightened, almost as if it was like the evolution of a new species. After enlightenment he had a mind that was radically different from every other human being in history.

[fabianfred]

The vast gap between Puutuchon and Ariyachon is also apparent.

"He taught that the material world is illusory in essence, therefore it can be said that none of us are actually physical human beings, rather we are just attached to the perception that we are."

this method of thinking came from later mahayana thought.... and is popular with Westerners who like to deny the existence of actual physical realms like heavens and hells...

not a thinking supported by Theravada Buddhism

[luangtom]

A great number of those pandering Christianity in Thailand are such zealots and charlatans. In the Isaan, I encountered a minister/missionary of the Baptist religion that offered lessons to the school children in English if they would renounce Buddhism and profess their faith. I challenged him when he spoke to the group I was attending as a visitor accompanying a niece taking the classes. He also told the youth that they were poor because they were not Christians and that Buddhists would always be poor, as it was the wrong religion. I countered with saying there were many poor Christians in the world and was told by the man that they were of the wrong kind of Christians (i.e., not Baptists). Needless to say, it was not worth the effort to try and counter all that he had to say. I told the children that were with my niece that it was their decision to make and that they were being lied to when a person needs to exchange their profession of faith as a precursor to gaining lessons in English. They were also told to publicly confess their faith if they wished to eat the treats he and his wife provided or attain any of the books that had been donated by congregations in the USA. It is an experience I will never forget.

To say that meditation is wrong is something this preacher also said. I countered with Bible reference to Jesus Christ going to the Garden of Gethsemane to meditate. He would not respond to that and tried talking his way out of it by saying the Bible and its translation can be deciphered in many ways and it was a mistake made in translation. Bah, what unadulterated crap that is spread by farang zealots in the name of their version of the correct religion. Far too many zealots and charlatans walking the beat in Thailand and elsewhere in the Third World. It is truly easy to understand why the USA is hated in so many locations in the world. We will make the rest of the world Christian and their countries democratic, even if it means killing them trying......

[AsiaCheese]

Religious nutcases like that one make me want to vomit Seriously sick idiots. Want to start a few wars? Just start a new religion...

[Jimjim]

Does that idiot even know that Jehovah was a lunar god, and if he was, then Christianity which springs from Judaism also worships the lunar god? And what is that about Buddha's footprints? That fella will be torn to pieces and eaten in the bardo.

What on earth are you talking about? Jehovah a lunar god? I must be an idiot too as I've never heard this. Please tell me where idiots go to learn about this, so I too can know the truth. Can you point me to from where this idea of yours comes?

[mauGR1]

I never heard a Buddhist trying to discredit other religions of faiths.In India they highly regard Jesus as a Avatar(incarnation)of Vishnu.Like somebody said,there are many different paths to the top of the mountain,you can choose the one that is fit for you.

[EndofDays]

Erm - what exactly were you expecting to hear at a lecture by a christian group specifically talking about other religions?

Erm-what do you mean what do you expect from a christian group specifically talking about other religions? You are just as bad as that group with that statement.

[EndofDays]

Many people claim to be Christians and even come equipped with a bible and a bunch of memorized passages. There are many monk's that drink, sexually cavort about and sell bogus amulets.

The chap certainly wasn't a Christian anymore than an insincere monks is Buddhist.

Do you condemn everyone that practices Buddhism because some people are frauds?

I didn't think so.

One cannot blame all Christians because one man is an ignorant ass.

Go in peace and may the Force be with you.

Point well-made. You should be attacking that idiot of a speaker and not Christians or Christianity. If you are, then you are just as bad as that loon

Edited May 12, 2009 by camerata
Fixed quotes.

[deprogrammed]

[phetaroi]

Many people claim to be Christians and even come equipped with a bible and a bunch of memorized passages. There are many monk's that drink, sexually cavort about and sell bogus amulets.

The chap certainly wasn't a Christian anymore than an insincere monks is Buddhist.

Do you condemn everyone that practices Buddhism because some people are frauds?

I didn't think so.

One cannot blame all Christians because one man is an ignorant ass.

Go in peace and may the Force be with you.

1. Many years ago when I was living in Palmyra, New York, which oddly enough is the birthplace of Mormonism (though I was Catholic at the time), a 7th Day Adventist came knocking at the door. At the time I was a college student majoring in Geosciences. This was my big chance! I let him do his little spiel and then he wondered if I had any questions. "Yes, what about evolution?" "Oh, I can show you through scriptures how the Bible proves evolution to be false." He began rapidly flipping pages, but came up with nothing after about 10 minutes. He was getting very flustered and out of breath; I should mention, he was in his 70's. I then ran through a couple of other controversial topics and, just as before, he came up dry and got more and more flustered. I finally began worrying that he might have a heart attack, so I stopped far short of the debate I would have liked to have had with him. So yes, as you say, people of all religions often come programmed with a few memorized passages that hit "their" key points, but then slow an amazing lack of knowledge about the religion they are prostelytizing.

2. I agree with your point that "insincere" members exist in all religions. I might soften it just a bit for many in each religion who are what they are because of where they are. I was raised by my grandparents; my grandmother was Methodist; as a child I was a Methodist...and not a knowledgeable one at all. In my very late teens I converted to my father's religion (Catholicism), but again was not a knowledgeable Catholic. Then, in my late 30's I began thinking and acting like a Buddhist, but not a very knowledgeable one. Now I am beginning to change that...trying to learn more...slowly but surely.

[Xangsamhua]

Does that idiot even know that Jehovah was a lunar god, and if he was, then Christianity which springs from Judaism also worships the lunar god? And what is that about Buddha's footprints? That fella will be torn to pieces and eaten in the bardo.

What on earth are you talking about? Jehovah a lunar god? I must be an idiot too as I've never heard this. Please tell me where idiots go to learn about this, so I too can know the truth. Can you point me to from where this idea of yours comes?

I thought Yahweh was a later name for El, a mountain god ( as in El Shaddai, Elohim, Allah), but there seems to be some disagreement about the identification of Yahweh and El.