I wouldn't put so much faith in the U.N. that's just asking for someone to dump sh1t on you. It's far better for countries to come together and talk than keep putting issues in the hands of the U.N.

Better for whom? Surely not for the small countries with small armies and scarce resources. Without a forum like the UN, what chance have they got at getting their voices heard?

Is it in your mind ok for the US who for years and years refused to pay their membership fees but still claimed a seat in the security council?

Dont know about you, but I was taught that when you join a club, you make a commitment, a commitment that should be honoured. Not doing so is arrogant and totally undermines your credibility when you try to moralize to others afterwards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just Like Thaivisa.com members have to abide by these, right?

... I am against unilateral intervention without UN mandate and a clear agenda.

Unfettered naiveté to the Max!

Just what color is the sky on the world you're living on, Bitterfly?

...careful now, you don't want to get turfed off here so soon after starting posting again!

Note: Never form any kind of pact or commitment with BoonMee, from his above comment it appears he thinks that playing by the rules is only ok when the rules work in ones own favour.

Overdose of renegade cop breaking all the rules because 'you don't mess with my family' movies?

Boy O boy, are we into cryptic posts here, Meadish, or what?

I simply mentioned to Butterfly that perhaps it's not wise to get 'jai raan' as he's only just returned to the bosum of TV and you're talking about pacts/commitments?

ผมไม่เข้าใจเท่าไหร่

While we're talking about the vaunted UN, lets hear it how they were so successful in Bosnia/Africa etc?

I wouldn't put so much faith in the U.N. that's just asking for someone to dump sh1t on you. It's far better for countries to come together and talk than keep putting issues in the hands of the U.N.

Better for whom? Surely not for the small countries with small armies and scarce resources. Without a forum like the UN, what chance have they got at getting their voices heard?

Is it in your mind ok for the US who for years and years refused to pay their membership fees but still claimed a seat in the security council?

Dont know about you, but I was taught that when you join a club, you make a commitment, a commitment that should be honoured. Not doing so is arrogant and totally undermines your credibility when you try to moralize to others afterwards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The problem with the U.N. Meadish is that it can be used against any country all too easily. And Gov, doesn't tell us anything about the U.N. expect what country we're suppose to send troops to, so I hadn't heard about not paying a memberdhip fee.

The UN is a gov't born of politics.....and as such can not be trusted because it is subject to political pressure and corruption....I'm not saying that the UN is a hotbed of corruption but the decisions made there are a product of the political process so they are always subject to question. I like the UN and support it. It can not fix the world's problems but it can help.

Also someone suggested that citizens only hear what gov't's want them to hear...I disagree...there are news sources where you can find less biased news....for instance....when Bush claimed that Saddam had a vast network of secret labs and facilities you could always read about the UN inspector's results from Iraq which clearly stated that none had been found and it appeared that none would be found 'cause there weren't any....the American people just didn't have the time to inform themselves of this and instead relied on the gov't for their 'facts'. When will people learn to never trust a gov't. You can not rely on a gov't to inform you, you must inform yourself.....or don't........

Being gullible to government propaganda is something none of us are able to avoid.  Every government of every country has an agenda and they will tell us only what they want us to hear in order to sway our opinion in the favor of what their goal is.  No government is innocent, they all lie and skew stories.  The media of every country is a governments vehicle for spreading the propaganda they spew.  No media is unbiased or all-true.  American government and media are guilty of this for sure but so is England, Germany, Italy, Japan, Israel etc etc, name them all.  Every country has a vested interest in world events and to accomplish their goals and win over popular opinion, they will tell us whatever it takes to win us over.  None of us know the truth because none of us are being told everything, no matter where you are getting your information.

Come on T you can't be serious. You are finding a sorry excuse in people ignorance to justify those acts. Then I ask, where the Germans "justified" in their support to Hitler during WW2 ? didn't they bear responsability at the end ? weren't they accused of supporting atrocious act ? what was the Nuremburg all about then ? a picnic ?

Yes there are propaganda everywhere. I am not denying this. Critical thinking ? critical reading ? reading comprehension ? ever heard of it ? and you have the guts to tell me that even those who had Critical reading in schools "missed" all the propaganda and the lies they were being fed ? your arguments are dishonnest to say the least and a sorry excuse for ignorance.

The public didn't do their research and when I mean "research" it means reading newspapers from different sources. You can't afford not to be informed in these days. And like I say, if you don't, you are exposing yourself to all kind of manipulation and become a passive supporter of your government dirty action. There were plenty of reports about the lies of Iraq WMD. Don't tell me nobody knew. This is rewriting history and being in denial after being caught red handed. But as soon as someone was raising the red flags, the right wing lunatics were calling them "traitor" and trying to shutdown any discussions about the matter. This is not really an issue about propaganda information, but more how to suppress the "relevant" information.

You are attacking straw men with your arguments. Oh yeah, Ignorance is bliss.

... I am against unilateral intervention without UN mandate and a clear agenda.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unfettered naiveté to the Max!

Just what color is the sky on the world you're living on, Bitterfly?

...careful now, you don't want to get turfed off here so soon after starting posting again!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Note: Never form any kind of pact or commitment with BoonMee, from his above comment it appears he thinks that playing by the rules is only ok when the rules work in ones own favour.

Overdose of renegade cop breaking all the rules because 'you don't mess with my family' movies?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know Boon Me for quite a while. We all know he can't be trusted. Too coward for any commitment

You're right Kayo, it's not. 

Butterfly-

What am I suppose to say? You are so caught up in the propaganda of the left that I doubt you'll hear anything. As I said before, you are no better off as those who are caught up in the right wing politics.

These problems over the world always go back further then most of us care to think of. Then new issues are added to the ones already plaguing us. I mentioned before the Ottoman Empire, what if it wasn't carved up? Would some of the problems in the middle east have had a chance to happen? Oil, yes that's part of it, but only part.

I wouldn't put so much faith in the U.N. that's just asking for someone to dump sh1t on you. It's far better for countries to come together and talk than keep putting issues in the hands of the U.N.

Keep two things in mind Butterfly:

The minute you think you have all the answers, you're wrong.

There's nothing proper about you're propaganda-RATM

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I have an idea that your "leftie" references put you in the group of "right wing lunatics". I hope I am wrong. But unfortunately I can see that you fit that pattern from little you have to say. And no I don't have all the answers. Most of my arguments are not answers, but counter arguments to others. I can argue but that doesn't mean I am right. My arguments can be strong but it's up to you to find an equally strong argument to defeat my logic.

The UN can't do much things and it's a shame they can't do more in a better manner. However what you are advocating here didn't work in the past, that's why we have the UN now (read some History books as obviously you missed that Chapter)

I am not a leftie and this is exactly what I am talking about. You are tying to shutdown any arguments or counter arguments with your "leftie" reference as soon as you feel threaten by those same arguments. You can't fight them because you can't find the right words to put together. So instead you use the "leftie" reference as it must mean something. Your likes always use the same pattern. Some silly name calling to "summarize" your thinking without really going into a meaningful discussion. A pitty really. Come on thaibebop, make an effort. At least try. And stop the leftie reference. It doesn't make you sound literate and I am sure you can put thoughts together even if they are wrong or partially wrong. Don't be lazy.

The problem with the U.N. Meadish is that it can be used against any country all too easily. And Gov, doesn't tell us anything about the U.N. expect what country we're suppose to send troops to, so I hadn't heard about not paying a memberdhip fee.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shhh

Let me guess, you get your newsfeed from Faux, right ?

This is totally insane. Do you understand the purpose of the UN (apart from sucking dry the US with its enormous fees) ?

I wouldn't put so much faith in the U.N. that's just asking for someone to dump sh1t on you. It's far better for countries to come together and talk than keep putting issues in the hands of the U.N.

Better for whom? Surely not for the small countries with small armies and scarce resources. Without a forum like the UN, what chance have they got at getting their voices heard?

Is it in your mind ok for the US who for years and years refused to pay their membership fees but still claimed a seat in the security council?

Dont know about you, but I was taught that when you join a club, you make a commitment, a commitment that should be honoured. Not doing so is arrogant and totally undermines your credibility when you try to moralize to others afterwards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen to that. But see "bullies" don't like to play by the rules as soon as they get challenged.

Snip

Ok I hope I will not missed some of your answers. My final answers on the subject as I feel I am repeating myself a little bit

Re: Experiment

Physical experiments don't always work in the world of politics

Re: LP Idealist (Libertarian Party)

No, I am not. Well I hope I am not. LP are usually right wing facist who think they are entitled to everything and they should bear no responsability for anything. A few have interesting ideas but their party has been hijacked by facists wanabee so I don't want to be associated with any of them.

Re: Gulf War + 911 + Osama Bin Laden

You need to watch that excellent BBC show "The Power Of Nightmares - Episode 2" to get a nice summary of what happened. It has been 10/15 years already since the original conflict had happened so our memories can play us some tricks. Before that Osama was involved into "domestic" terrorism: basically conflicts limited to the ME regions. Then GW1 happened. The yanks stayed and didn't leave as promised. The first WTC attack happened in 1993 and was clearly the act of Osama Bin Laden to "punish" the Americans from staying on the Holly Land. Americans didn't get the message the first time, so Osama went for 911. Mission Accomplished. They got the message and left SA soon after. But unfortunately they went to Iraq. The story could have stopped here but no. The US wanted a base in the ME. We will have thousands more Bin Laden soon. I guess Mission Accomplished for some. Not good.

Re: Islam fundamentalism

Islamists are quite a recent movment. War of Religions happened before but the Islamists are a little bit different. They want an Islamic State and convert as many country as possible in the ME regions. They are not interested into fighting other religions. What they don't want is the West interfere with their agenda. But the West, in its thirst for absolute power, don't want to be threatened by a "successful" Islamic State. The original idea of Kuta (sp?) and others in the late 50s was to build an islamic state that would preserve a moral society from the corruption of the soul (mainly because of excessive economic prosperity) while keeping the technology progress of the West. Hardly a backward society. Incidently, the NeoCons of America came to the same conclusion as the Islamists. They see the danger of a corrupt society and they have been promoting "religion" as center piece of society to bound and control society. So we, "social liberals" are being attacked on 2 fronts, not one.

Welcome to the Butterfly Monologues

totster

Welcome to the Butterfly Monologues

totster 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just trying to answer everyone, one by one

The public didn't do their research and when I mean "research" it means reading newspapers from different sources. You can't afford not to be informed in these days.

Prove it then. Prove to me that the information you are basing your argument on, which has obviously been gathered from newspapers, is factual. You have clearly read up extensively on this particular subject from "newspapers from different sources" so prove to me that all the garbage you read from these "trustworthy" newspapers you have amazingly been able to find is factual information. If you can prove the factuality of these, then I will listen to your argument about Iraq with wide open ears and mind and be willing to accept your hypothesis.

Oh man, you are a tiresome SOB.

This was my point earlier, you are so wrapped up in your stupid little war between political parties and news sources that you only see what you want to see and claim that as "truth absoulte". Then you go on to try and insult me because of what you think I am based on what you think I said, but it's still you "thinking". I never said if I was right or left, but considering I attacked both, I thought you'd be able to figure it out. Guess I gave you too much credit there, my bad.

Let me spell it out for you, I said that right wing and left wing are the same, and that you being an extermist are no better than those you speak out against.

You prove it to when you jump so quickly to insulting people because they don't argee with you, just like a right winger. "I hope I am wrong." What if you were wrong, you gonna hate me for that? So, much for a liberal and open mind.

What argument are you looking for anyway, I'm talking about you not governments. I am saying that you are being unfair to opposing opinions and unrealistic when dealing with what the people know or don't know and how they should respond to what they know or don't know. I don't know what you do with your day but most of us don't have time to read 5 different news sources concerning the same story. We can't surf the web for hours at a time to locate "The Truth", or should I say the truth that we like. We sure as h3ll don't have time to watch every news show and compare notes.

Your argument is that if Joe, who is at work, didn't hear the news, cause he was busy, and didn't compare notes with other news sources after he heard one verison of events, that Joe is guilty of acts of terrorism. Get off your high horse, man. People have famlies and jobs, they have responsiblies, what the h3ll do you want from them?

About the U.N.: I wonder how much you really know yourself. It was supposed to be a conduit for nation to nation relations, but now they are making decisions for other counties. I guess they also weren't good enough as a few other organizations were created for the same purposes. I agree we need such forums to discuss issues between nations, but that forum should not be making choices for any nation.

While the right wingers and left wingers fight the fields burn and the people starve. In other words nothing is getting done in America to make it a better place, cause people like you want their little war.

The public didn't do their research and when I mean "research" it means reading newspapers from different sources. You can't afford not to be informed in these days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Prove it then. Prove to me that the information you are basing your argument on, which has obviously been gathered from newspapers, is factual. You have clearly read up extensively on this particular subject from "newspapers from different sources" so prove to me that all the garbage you read from these "trustworthy" newspapers you have amazingly been able to find is factual information. If you can prove the factuality of these, then I will listen to your argument about Iraq with wide open ears and mind and be willing to accept your hypothesis.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Look out, TRIPxCORE!

He might be looking for you Illuminati types.

The public didn't do their research and when I mean "research" it means reading newspapers from different sources. You can't afford not to be informed in these days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Prove it then. Prove to me that the information you are basing your argument on, which has obviously been gathered from newspapers, is factual. You have clearly read up extensively on this particular subject from "newspapers from different sources" so prove to me that all the garbage you read from these "trustworthy" newspapers you have amazingly been able to find is factual information. If you can prove the factuality of these, then I will listen to your argument about Iraq with wide open ears and mind and be willing to accept your hypothesis.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thousands of links have posted here and elsewhere on the subject already. If you miss all of them because you were too scared to read them when you had a chance, I am not responsible. Google it, do your own research, I am not going to do that for you. This is what I read and pounder upon for many years. Don't be lazy and let others do the work for you as usual. Question what I am telling you here and google it for answers. Do the actual work and learn along the way.

Oh man, you are a tiresome SOB.

This was my point earlier, you are so wrapped up in your stupid little war between political parties and news sources that you only see what you want to see and claim that as "truth absoulte". Then you go on to try and insult me because of what you think I am based on what you think I said, but it's still you "thinking". I never said if I was right or left, but considering I attacked both, I thought you'd be able to figure it out. Guess I gave you too much credit there, my bad.

Let me spell it out for you, I said that right wing and left wing are the same, and that you being an extermist are no better than those you speak out against.

You prove it to when you jump so quickly to insulting people because they don't argee with you, just like a right winger. "I hope I am wrong." What if you were wrong, you gonna hate me for that? So, much for a liberal and open mind.

More name calling. Translation: I have no arguments so I refer to you as extremists as an easy exit strategy. I give you a D

I couldn't care less if you would agree with me or not. But you are too lazy to make a decent point.

What argument are you looking for anyway, I'm talking about you not governments. I am saying that you are being unfair to opposing opinions and unrealistic when dealing with what the people know or don't know and how they should respond to what they know or don't know. I don't know what you do with your day but most of us don't have time to read 5 different news sources concerning the same story. We can't surf the web for hours at a time to locate "The Truth", or should I say the truth that we like. We sure as h3ll don't have time to watch every news show and compare notes.

Your argument is that if Joe, who is at work, didn't hear the news, cause he was busy, and didn't compare notes with other news sources after he heard one verison of events, that Joe is guilty of acts of terrorism. Get off your high horse, man. People have famlies and jobs, they have responsiblies, what the h3ll do you want from them?

Weak. So were the Germans during WW2. So what's your point ? that's the exact definition of lazyness and incuriousity. I guess the public has enough time to watch NASCAR and Oprah and even that trash news enterntainment channel Faux News. So your argument doesn't hold. There is nothing that stops people from reading and learning what's going on around them. The only thing stopping them is incuriousity and lazyness. You can't afford that in these days and ages. 911 proved that.

While the right wingers and left wingers fight the fields burn and the people starve. In other words nothing is getting done in America to make it a better place, cause people like you want their little war.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The left wing is not here to destroy America. That's right wings loonies consipiracy theory. Are you one of them ? you certainly seem to believe that the left is there to destroy the country. Those questions are raised to save the country and make it better, not to destroy it. Doing nothing when it is being taken over by right wing facist is destroying it. If you have any doubt, ask the Germans. The right wing loonies who supported the Bush administration and his illegal war will be remembered as "traitors" in history books. Maybe in 20 or 30 years.

Thousands of links have posted here and elsewhere on the subject already. If you miss all of them because you were too scared to read them when you had a chance, I am not responsible. Google it, do your own research, I am not going to do that for you. This is what I read and pounder upon for many years. Don't be lazy and let others do the work for you as usual. Question what I am telling you here and google it for answers. Do the actual work and learn along the way.

Sir, I am not asking you to do research for me. Let me see how plainly I can spell this out for you. What I am asking you to do is prove to me that the information you have read, seen, or heard about Iraq and the war, regardless of the source, is true, factual information. Thats it.

Thousands of links have posted here and elsewhere on the subject already. If you miss all of them because you were too scared to read them when you had a chance, I am not responsible. Google it, do your own research, I am not going to do that for you. This is what I read and pounder upon for many years. Don't be lazy and let others do the work for you as usual. Question what I am telling you here and google it for answers. Do the actual work and learn along the way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sir, I am not asking you to do research for me. Let me see how plainly I can spell this out for you. What I am asking you to do is prove to me that the information you have read, seen, or heard about Iraq and the war, regardless of the source, is true, factual information. Thats it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Google it. Thousand links with facts about the lies of Iraq WMD before the war. Shh!! how can I spell it to you more specifically ?

1. Open Browser.

2. Type Google.com

3. Type "Iraq" + "WMD" + "Lies" + "Neocon"

Get it ?

Google it. Thousand links with facts about the lies of Iraq WMD before the war. Shh!! how can I spell it to you more specifically ? 

1. Open Browser.

2. Type Google.com

3. Type "Iraq" + "WMD" + "Lies" + "Neocon"

Get it ? 

How can I be sure that this information I read is true and factual? You have a belief based upon information you have attained about Iraq and the war. If you want to debate and prove your beliefs, you first have to prove that what lead you to form your opinion or belief is accurate.

Just prove the veracity of the newspaper accounts you have read and I will stop pestering you.

You didn't pay attention to anything I said. If I wanna talk to a brick wall I'll go out side.

You didn't pay attention to anything I said. If I wanna talk to a brick wall I'll go out side.

Are you referring to me or someone else?

You didn't pay attention to anything I said. If I wanna talk to a brick wall I'll go out side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you referring to me or someone else?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, No, not you. I was talking about floats like a butterfly, but couldn't sting to save his life.

Flutter away little butterfly, just flutter away.

Google it. Thousand links with facts about the lies of Iraq WMD before the war. Shh!! how can I spell it to you more specifically ? 

1. Open Browser.

2. Type Google.com

3. Type "Iraq" + "WMD" + "Lies" + "Neocon"

Get it ? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How can I be sure that this information I read is true and factual? You have a belief based upon information you have attained about Iraq and the war. If you want to debate and prove your beliefs, you first have to prove that what lead you to form your opinion or belief is accurate.

Just prove the veracity of the newspaper accounts you have read and I will stop pestering you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

TRIPxCORE, It is impossible to prove anything about history. You probably think you know on what day you were born but can you prove it? Is your driver's license proof? In the US if you want to go into a bar it is proof enough...but in absolute terms it is not proof at all...neither is your birth certificate...someone could have made a mistake on it...neither are your parents...they could remember incorrectly...neither are the hospital records...they could be forged in some grand conspiracy. You can't prove anything about history...I know this seems absurd and I agree but it seems that this is what you are saying. You are asking how you can know that something is true if you get it from a news source....the answer is that you can't...but you can compare many sources even if it means discussing things with your friends and seeing what their sources say. It does take some time and commitment to learn about what goes on in the world...but if your not willing to do this then you shouldn't vote since an informed electorate is the backbone of any democracy. If I feel that I'm not well enough enformed about the candidates for an office then I don't vote for any of them.

Can you prove that millions of Jews were killed in Nazi Germany....many people say you can not because it didn't happen.

Can you prove that people landed on the moon? many people think its all been faked.

Google it. Thousand links with facts about the lies of Iraq WMD before the war. Shh!! how can I spell it to you more specifically ? 

1. Open Browser.

2. Type Google.com

3. Type "Iraq" + "WMD" + "Lies" + "Neocon"

Get it ? 

How can I be sure that this information I read is true and factual? You have a belief based upon information you have attained about Iraq and the war. If you want to debate and prove your beliefs, you first have to prove that what lead you to form your opinion or belief is accurate.

Just prove the veracity of the newspaper accounts you have read and I will stop pestering you.

Can you prove that millions of Jews were killed in Nazi Germany....many people say you can not because it didn't happen.

Can you prove that people landed on the moon? many people think its all been faked.

I'm sure the Gent would agree with this as well as Butterfly - it's all fake!

The operative term here boys, is 'Historical Revisionists '

You didn't pay attention to anything I said. If I wanna talk to a brick wall I'll go out side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you referring to me or someone else?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, No, not you. I was talking about floats like a butterfly, but couldn't sting to save his life.

Flutter away little butterfly, just flutter away.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I know your likes don't like to be faced with criticism and facts. Instead you just threw your head deeper in the sand. I just love how you label "lefties" everyone who disagree with you because you are so much wrapped in your little "comfort" world that you need to revert to binary thinking. I don't deal with "absolutes" but you do. You can't understand and don't want to see arguments that question your government and yet you don't like your government mingle in your personal business. Odd isn't it ? another Paradox in your wrapped reality ? everyone is a "leftist" and they are terrorist everywhere looking to destroy America. This is more in line with your thinking. Binary thinking that is. I can only understand why you react like that and once again you have failed to answer or argue with my arguments and logic.

So far you have been a brick wall and failed to find an intelligible counter argument to anything I said. The funny thing is you dare lecturing me about "listening" while you have been "skipping" every arguments I have put forward. I understand you can only deal with "absolutes" and this is too much information for you to process. You are excused. Now you can go back to Oprah and NASCAR.

TRIPxCORE,  It is impossible to prove anything about history.  You probably think you know on what day you were born but can you prove it?  Is your driver's license proof?  In the US if you want to go into a bar it is proof enough...but in absolute terms it is not proof at all...neither is your birth certificate...someone could have made a mistake on it...neither are your parents...they could remember incorrectly...neither are the hospital records...they could be forged in some grand conspiracy.  You can't prove anything about history.

Whoa, whoa, whoa there. Nobody has a vested interest in making my birthdate different than what it is on my driver's license or birth certificate.  It would benefit no one to skew my personal history.  Politics and war, on the other hand, has many vested interests all the way around. Interests such as countries sending off sons and daughters to fight, national companies supplying the front lines with weapons and such for profit, or perhaps one country looking to eradicate another country's leader in order to take over the abundant natural resources just as an example.  You cannot sit here and make a comparison between these two examples, you have to do better than that.  My example affects millions of people whereas your example affects no one but me.

You are asking how you can know that something is true if you get it from a news source....the answer is that you can't...but you can compare many sources even if it means discussing things with your friends and seeing what their sources say.

The very point I have made already precludes the validity of your statement above.  Every country and every media source has an agenda, whatever it may be, to inform you only of what they think will skew your opinion in their favor.  You can sit and compare newspapers from 100 different countries if you want.  Some of the stories may be different, a lot of them will probably be the same but the newspaper itself is only going to tell you what they think you should hear.  Comparing different sources isn't going to give you special insight into anything no matter if you think it willl or not.  Go grab 50 newspapers from different places.  Most of the major stories in them will be written by AP or Rueters anyway.

Can you prove that people landed on the moon?  many people think its all been faked.

It was faked, didn't you know that?

You didn't pay attention to anything I said. If I wanna talk to a brick wall I'll go out side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you referring to me or someone else?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, No, not you. I was talking about floats like a butterfly, but couldn't sting to save his life.

Flutter away little butterfly, just flutter away.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I know your likes don't like to be faced with criticism and facts. Instead you just threw your head deeper in the sand. I just love how you label "lefties" everyone who disagree with you because you are so much wrapped in your little "comfort" world that you need to revert to binary thinking. I don't deal with "absolutes" but you do. You can't understand and don't want to see arguments that question your government and yet you don't like your government mingle in your personal business. Odd isn't it ? another Paradox in your wrapped reality ? everyone is a "leftist" and they are terrorist everywhere looking to destroy America. This is more in line with your thinking. Binary thinking that is. I can only understand why you react like that and once again you have failed to answer or argue with my arguments and logic.

So far you have been a brick wall and failed to find an intelligible counter argument to anything I said. The funny thing is you dare lecturing me about "listening" while you have been "skipping" every arguments I have put forward. I understand you can only deal with "absolutes" and this is too much information for you to process. You are excused. Now you can go back to Oprah and NASCAR.

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Last time, I am talking about you, nothing but you. Why do you have to be such an a$$hole.?I am not right, or left , you are the one hung up on it. You have been nothing buy insulting this whole time. I don't think you want to discuss, but fight. I don't care about any points you are making or wanting to make, I am discussing you as a human being and why you feel the need to insult and unjustly attack people. Plain and simply, and you are the one who has ignored me.

To the Moderators

Out of respect for the Saudi Royal Family could you please close this thread.

To the Moderators

Out of respect for the Saudi Royal Family could you please close this thread.

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What concern is the Saudi royal family to this board? If you wish to close the thread because it didn't go your way Thomas them PM the mods, do not find an excuse for the closure.

It doesn't break board rules nor bedlam rules as there are none relating to the Saudi royal family.