MPs Wary Of Thai Govt Rehabilitation Plan

[webfact]

MPs wary of govt rehabilitation plan

The Nation

Parliamentarians expressed concern yesterday over the government's New Thailand project to manage the country's water-related problems, which will require as much as Bt800 billion in funding.

Opposition Democrat MPs and a senator expressed doubts about the government's ability to secure sufficient funds for the project.

However, Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra said yesterday the funding estimate of between Bt600 billion and Bt800 billion put forward by Energy Minister Pichai Naripthaphan was only a preliminary figure. A study was still needed to determine the project's details and required budget, she said.

"There is no New Thailand project yet. It's just a working title [for the plan]. The project involves finding permanent solutions to the country's water problems. We have set up a committee to take care of this matter," Yingluck said.

"Initially, Bt80 billion is required for emergency-rehabilitation measures. This does not include the budget for long-term integrated management of 25 river basins. The budget figure will be determined and disclosed later," she said.

Senator Anurak Niyomvech said yesterday he agreed with the New Thailand idea, but was concerned where the government would obtain the funding.

He said the government would have to explain this, as well as the project details and how the funds would be spent.

"The government should regard the need for systematic management of the country's water-related problems as a national issue," the senator said.

"To solve the water problems on a large scale - involving construction of dams or floodways - will lead to adverse and widespread impacts on people for many years. So there is a need for full participation of the people involved," Anurak said.

He said that in late November, senators plan to file a motion for a parliamentary debate on the government's handling of the flood problems, as well as measures to rehabilitate the victims and help the country recover.

Chanin Rungsang, a Democrat MP for Bangkok, expressed concern that the government would face difficulty acquiring funds for the New Thailand project.

"The government has set aside Bt120 billion for post-flood rehabilitation and recovery. And the budget bill for fiscal 2012 does not mention a New Thailand project," the MP said.

"If the government opts to borrow to fund the project, it should be careful about the debt burden on the people of this country," said Chanin, who also heads the House of Representatives committee on economic development.

Democrat spokesman Chavanond Intarakomalsut called on the government to focus on the immediate task of tackling ongoing flood problems rather than a mega-project for the future.

"It seems the government overlooks the people's immediate problems and instead looks at an opportunity to borrow Bt800-900 billion for a 'project to create a new Thailand'. Right now, half of Thailand is under water and people are still suffering," Chavanond said.

The Democrat also criticised the government for its failure to distribute donated items to flood victims. He was referring to many donated items that were left and swamped at Don Mueang Airport after the government's Flood Relief Operations Command moved to a new location.

Chavanond said the Democrat Party offered to take care of distributing the donated items left behind that the airport.

He called on the prime minister to be decisive about the imminent problems and to "stop acting as a coordinator".

"The prime minister should be aware that she is the head of the government, with the power to make decisions in running the country," he said.

-- The Nation 2011-11-01

[Jogden]

He said the government would have to explain this, as well as the project details and how the funds would be spent.

And that translates to: How much can we get in our pockets?

[Buchholz]

Democrat spokesman Chavanond Intarakomalsut called on the government to focus on the immediate task of tackling ongoing flood problems rather than a mega-project for the future.

Good to see there is at least some rational thought in Parliament.

Yingluck's, "A study was still needed to determine the project's details and required budget" and than proposing nearly a Trillion Baht for the unstudied "New Thailand Project" certainly isn't.

[Buchholz]

Senator Anurak Niyomvech said yesterday he agreed with the New Thailand idea, but was concerned where the government would obtain the funding.

Yingluck's Energy Minister (which oddly seems to be the ministry running this "Project") said it would come from using up the Bank of Thailand's foreign reserves. No risks associated with depleting that, is there?

Oddly, he didn't say whether or not the Bank of Thailand's Investment Committee nor its Executive Committee had agreed to this.

http://www.bot.or.th/ENGLISH/FINANCIALMARKETS/RESERVEMANAGEMENT/Pages/OfficialForeignReservesProcess.aspx

He also said that other countries have supposedly said they would help in funding this unstudied "Project."

.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Buchholz

[jonclark]

How about borrowing the 800 Billion baht and investing it in education so that in the future when the floods re occur Thailand actually has the brain power in its civil and governmental services to manage flood waters. It would also put Thailand younger generations on a better footing for taking the opportunities that ASEAN offers in 2015 when trade barriers come down and bring more cash into the country and government coffers.

The government has shown its hand here - It has no problem borrowing foreign money - So borrow it and invest it in your youth, it will repay you back far more generously than any water management project.

[Buchholz]

How about borrowing the 800 Billion baht and investing it in education so that in the future when the floods re occur Thailand actually has the brain power in its civil and governmental services to manage flood waters. It would also put Thailand younger generations on a better footing for taking the opportunities that ASEAN offers in 2015 when trade barriers come down and bring more cash into the country and government coffers.

The government has shown its hand here - It has no problem borrowing foreign money - So borrow it and invest it in your youth, it will repay you back far more generously than any water management project.

Those issues have already been addressed by the government with its billions committed for spending on the computer tablets for first graders "project."

[jonclark]

How about borrowing the 800 Billion baht and investing it in education so that in the future when the floods re occur Thailand actually has the brain power in its civil and governmental services to manage flood waters. It would also put Thailand younger generations on a better footing for taking the opportunities that ASEAN offers in 2015 when trade barriers come down and bring more cash into the country and government coffers.

The government has shown its hand here - It has no problem borrowing foreign money - So borrow it and invest it in your youth, it will repay you back far more generously than any water management project.

Those issues have already been addressed by the government with its billions committed for spending on the computer tablets for first graders "project."

Sarcasm noted. But I'm talking about real investment across the entire education system, new schools, higher wages, teaching and learning standards raised. A far better use of a loan than digging a set of tunnels which will remian unused for most of the year.

[Buchholz]

How about borrowing the 800 Billion baht and investing it in education so that in the future when the floods re occur Thailand actually has the brain power in its civil and governmental services to manage flood waters. It would also put Thailand younger generations on a better footing for taking the opportunities that ASEAN offers in 2015 when trade barriers come down and bring more cash into the country and government coffers.

The government has shown its hand here - It has no problem borrowing foreign money - So borrow it and invest it in your youth, it will repay you back far more generously than any water management project.

Those issues have already been addressed by the government with its billions committed for spending on the computer tablets for first graders "project."

Sarcasm noted. But I'm talking about real investment across the entire education system, new schools, higher wages, teaching and learning standards raised. A far better use of a loan than digging a set of tunnels which will remain unused for most of the year.

Valid and conscientious comments on education noted and agreed with.

However, as the "New Thailand Project" remains unstudied, it's unclear whether tunneling is included in the "scheme". For all we know, the nearly one trillion baht entails getting the 75,000 boats that Science Minister Plodprasop wants to push the water out of the river.

.

.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Buchholz

[whybother]

Sarcasm noted. But I'm talking about real investment across the entire education system, new schools, higher wages, teaching and learning standards raised. A far better use of a loan than digging a set of tunnels which will remian unused for most of the year.

Education is no good to anyone if the country is flooded for 2-3 months every year.

Also, education doesn't just need money thrown at it. It needs a complete overhaul of attitudes.

[mijan24]

How about borrowing the 800 Billion baht and investing it in education so that in the future when the floods re occur Thailand actually has the brain power in its civil and governmental services to manage flood waters. It would also put Thailand younger generations on a better footing for taking the opportunities that ASEAN offers in 2015 when trade barriers come down and bring more cash into the country and government coffers.

The government has shown its hand here - It has no problem borrowing foreign money - So borrow it and invest it in your youth, it will repay you back far more generously than any water management project.

Those issues have already been addressed by the government with its billions committed for spending on the computer tablets for first graders "project."

Sarcasm noted. But I'm talking about real investment across the entire education system, new schools, higher wages, teaching and learning standards raised. A far better use of a loan than digging a set of tunnels which will remian unused for most of the year.

This government is sounding more and more like the current Australian Government, they create projects at the drop of a hat no feasibility studies which leads to failure in terms of money and results.

It was reported last week about some official who bungled (copped a kickback) over a failed tunnel project that had proved to be totally useless but was to be overcome by funding two more tunnels to be built by the same company who had bungled the orinal fiasco.

This reeks of corruption the same as the insulation in the ceiling bungle and the additional classrooms debacle I even seem to remember a second project being let to the same companies that bungled the initial ones this was of course "snouts in the trough Australian style" anything sounding similar here??

[jonclark]

Sarcasm noted. But I'm talking about real investment across the entire education system, new schools, higher wages, teaching and learning standards raised. A far better use of a loan than digging a set of tunnels which will remian unused for most of the year.

Education is no good to anyone if the country is flooded for 2-3 months every year.

Also, education doesn't just need money thrown at it. It needs a complete overhaul of attitudes.

It's easy to have a knee jerk reaction to these floods, but they are exceptional, and unlikely to happen on this scale for another 20 - 30 years, so the country isn't flooded for 2-3 months every year is it? The point I'm trying to make is that the government understandable responds (to pacify the public and show some semblance of control or management) by throwing money at the problem. Previous governments have baulked at borrowing from foreigners. But this government has shown it hand at having no such compunction. I'm saying right lets put the money where it is really needed into education so we can bridge the gap between rich and poor, by providing education and opportunities for the younger generation, which in turn makes the country stronger both financially and socially.

The Earth is a dynamic planet and no matter how big we build our defenses eventually mother nature will tear them down. That doesn't mean we don't defend ourselves or do nothing, but in this instance better water management comes from setting aside natural flood plains, unclogging and maintaining the canels and generally taking a bit more care and consideration where we choose to build our towns and cities (The new airport being a case in point). Not spending 800 Billion Baht on defenses (tunnels, dykes etc.) and then continuing down the same path which led us to this situation in the first place thinking we are immune from the natural world. It's f**king stupid

Edited November 1, 2011 by jonclark

[janverbeem]

How about borrowing the 800 Billion baht and investing it in education so that in the future when the floods re occur Thailand actually has the brain power in its civil and governmental services to manage flood waters. It would also put Thailand younger generations on a better footing for taking the opportunities that ASEAN offers in 2015 when trade barriers come down and bring more cash into the country and government coffers.

The government has shown its hand here - It has no problem borrowing foreign money - So borrow it and invest it in your youth, it will repay you back far more generously than any water management project.

Those issues have already been addressed by the government with its billions committed for spending on the computer tablets for first graders "project."

Sarcasm noted. But I'm talking about real investment across the entire education system, new schools, higher wages, teaching and learning standards raised. A far better use of a loan than digging a set of tunnels which will remain unused for most of the year.

Valid and conscientious comments on education noted and agreed with.

However, as the "New Thailand Project" remains unstudied, it's unclear whether tunneling is included in the "scheme". For all we know, the nearly one trillion baht entails getting the 75,000 boats that Science Minister Plodprasop wants to push the water out of the river.

.

.

You're sure it shouldn't read as "it's unclear whether funneling is included in the scheme".

[Buchholz]

Sarcasm noted. But I'm talking about real investment across the entire education system, new schools, higher wages, teaching and learning standards raised. A far better use of a loan than digging a set of tunnels which will remian unused for most of the year.

Education is no good to anyone if the country is flooded for 2-3 months every year.

Also, education doesn't just need money thrown at it. It needs a complete overhaul of attitudes.

It's easy to have a knee jerk reaction to these floods, but they are exceptional, and unlikely to happen on this scale for another 20 - 30 years, so the country isn't flooded for 2-3 months every year is it? The point I'm trying to make is that the government understandable responds (to pacify the public and show some semblance of control or management) by throwing money at the problem. Previous governments have baulked at borrowing from foreigners. But this government has shown it hand at having no such compunction. I'm saying right lets put the money where it is really needed into education so we can bridge the gap between rich and poor, by providing education and opportunities for the younger generation, which in turn makes the country stronger both financially and socially.

The Earth is a dynamic planet and no matter how big we build our defenses eventually mother nature will tear them down. That doesn't mean we don't defend ourselves or do nothing, but in this instance better water management comes from setting aside natural flood plains, unclogging and maintaining the canels and generally taking a bit more care and consideration where we choose to build our towns and cities (The new airport being a case in point). Not spending 800 Billion Baht on defenses (tunnels, dykes etc.) and then continuing down the same path which led us to this situation in the first place thinking we are immune from the natural world. It's f**king stupid

Fixing education would go a long way to helping resolve problems in a vast array of areas.

With Yingluck saying these are the "worst floods ever in history", which incidentally no one else is saying, the 20-30 year time period you mention is probably under-evaluated. Disregarding Yingluck's bluster, most international media outlets are still assigning it 50 and 60 year time frames.

.

[Buchholz]

Those issues have already been addressed by the government with its billions committed for spending on the computer tablets for first graders "project."

Sarcasm noted. But I'm talking about real investment across the entire education system, new schools, higher wages, teaching and learning standards raised. A far better use of a loan than digging a set of tunnels which will remain unused for most of the year.

Valid and conscientious comments on education noted and agreed with.

However, as the "New Thailand Project" remains unstudied, it's unclear whether tunneling is included in the "scheme". For all we know, the nearly one trillion baht entails getting the 75,000 boats that Science Minister Plodprasop wants to push the water out of the river.

You're sure it shouldn't read as "it's unclear whether funneling is included in the scheme".

oh, funneling is absolutely guaranteed to be an integral part of the scam scheme.

.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Buchholz

[jayboy]

With Yingluck saying these are the "worst floods ever in history", which incidentally no one else is saying, the 20-30 year time period you mention is probably under-evaluated. Disregarding Yingluck's bluster, most international media outlets are still assigning it 50 and 60 year time frames.

By God I think you have nailed her now.So many posts throughout the emergency where your efforts have been focused on discrediting the PM.Finally you have done it with your magnificent discovery that Yingluck said the floods were the worst ever but in fact they were only the worst for 50 years.Well done.Carry on with observations of this sophistication and maturity and you will be able to destroy her utterly.Chaiyo.

[Buchholz]

With Yingluck saying these are the "worst floods ever in history", which incidentally no one else is saying, the 20-30 year time period you mention is probably under-evaluated. Disregarding Yingluck's bluster, most international media outlets are still assigning it 50 and 60 year time frames.

By God I think you have nailed her now.So many posts throughout the emergency where your efforts have been focused on discrediting the PM.Finally you have done it with your magnificent discovery that Yingluck said the floods were the worst ever but in fact they were only the worst for 50 years.Well done.Carry on with observations of this sophistication and maturity and you will be able to destroy her utterly.Chaiyo.

Other than purely baiting for yet another one of your patented argumentative-squabbling-ending-up-deleted sessions, there are far more media posts discrediting Yingluck by simply quoting her than I could ever muster up.

.

[hellodolly]

Sarcasm noted. But I'm talking about real investment across the entire education system, new schools, higher wages, teaching and learning standards raised. A far better use of a loan than digging a set of tunnels which will remian unused for most of the year.

Education is no good to anyone if the country is flooded for 2-3 months every year.

Also, education doesn't just need money thrown at it. It needs a complete overhaul of attitudes.

The voice of reason.

Education should be upgraded and there is no two ways about that.

How ever if the floods still continue to control the country year after year no amount of education will help.

The knowledge is already here just a question of using it.

[scorecard]

How about borrowing the 800 Billion baht and investing it in education so that in the future when the floods re occur Thailand actually has the brain power in its civil and governmental services to manage flood waters. It would also put Thailand younger generations on a better footing for taking the opportunities that ASEAN offers in 2015 when trade barriers come down and bring more cash into the country and government coffers.

The government has shown its hand here - It has no problem borrowing foreign money - So borrow it and invest it in your youth, it will repay you back far more generously than any water management project.

I totally agree with investing in the youth of Thailand and at the same time totally re-engineer the education system, methodology, etc etc. Hard work frought with numerous massive obstacles but it must be done and with some determination and the right people leading the change it can be done.

But I have a little different view of current capability.

Yes, the majority of Thais are 'victims' of rote learning, they therefore cannot analyze, they cannot form questions, they cannot be innovative and creativity.

On the other hand there are quite a number of Thais who have had a different education experience and there are those who have climbed above rote learning to gain better quality education and have taught themselves to be analytical and creative, in the main they are honest and sincere, and have impressive work performance records.

The sad factor is that most of these people avoid politics like the plague, they don't want to be associated with the incapable gangs of thieves and cronies we currently call parties and politicians.

These people could lead Thailand forward, if given the right circumstances.

[jayboy]

Other than purely baiting for yet another one of your patented argumentative-squabbling-ending-up-deleted sessions, there are far more media posts discrediting Yingluck by simply quoting her than I could ever muster up.

Actually the responsible media reports do criticise the government where there has been poor decision making and slow responses.Entirely legitimate both in the press and on this forum

But for you it's all about piling on abuse

At a time of national emergency it's entirely appropriate to point this out, and to pinpoint your ridiculous excesses such as the post in question.

[moe666]

Other than purely baiting for yet another one of your patented argumentative-squabbling-ending-up-deleted sessions, there are far more media posts discrediting Yingluck by simply quoting her than I could ever muster up.

Actually the responsible media reports do criticise the government where there has been poor decision making and slow responses.Entirely legitimate both in the press and on this forum

But for you it's all about piling on abuse

At a time of national emergency it's entirely appropriate to point this out, and to pinpoint your ridiculous excesses such as the post in question.

The PM seems capable of cutting her own throat with every word she speaks or tear she sheds, and non-decesion she makes

[hammered]

The headline should read opposition MPs. the implication of this headline is that a majority of parliamentarians are wary, but where are all the quotes from the government side MPs?

By the way Thailand has vast reserves of currency (12th most in the world) and a reasonably small amount of that could be tapped into to resolve these problems without any negative economic effect. And what better use for reserves than infrastructure projects for the better of the country and all its people.

[hammered]

Other than purely baiting for yet another one of your patented argumentative-squabbling-ending-up-deleted sessions, there are far more media posts discrediting Yingluck by simply quoting her than I could ever muster up.

Actually the responsible media reports do criticise the government where there has been poor decision making and slow responses.Entirely legitimate both in the press and on this forum

But for you it's all about piling on abuse

At a time of national emergency it's entirely appropriate to point this out, and to pinpoint your ridiculous excesses such as the post in question.

The level of abuse piled on by the more extreme side of the media with claims such as hoarding without even examining distribution and logistical difficulties, together with the part they played in creating panic and price increases, and seemingly cheerleading the BKK governor in everything he does while serially attacking anybody or person on the government side to spreading rumours is probably why I see people who are usually critical of the government actually more supportive right now and quite embarrassed at some of the things said and done by those they used to side with.

There is room for criticism of government etc but what has been seen in a lot of cases in recent weeks go far beyond that to what looks like a campaign to try and oust government by a group who seem to want things to get worse, and that is not missed by a lot of Thai people who want to see the government given room to do its job. And lets remember they will judged by the people at the next election, and that most of that will be based on how the recovery is handled rather than how a natural disaster was dealt with.

[Buchholz]

Other than purely baiting for yet another one of your patented argumentative-squabbling-ending-up-deleted sessions, there are far more media posts discrediting Yingluck by simply quoting her than I could ever muster up.

Actually the responsible media reports do criticise the government where there has been poor decision making and slow responses.Entirely legitimate both in the press and on this forum

But for you it's all about piling on abuse

At a time of national emergency it's entirely appropriate to point this out, and to pinpoint your ridiculous excesses such as the post in question.

Your self-righteousness is nauseating.

Your bashing members exceeds whatever bashing the public figures receives. The concept you always fail to grasp of one being expressly forbidden by forum rules, but yet you persist and it's reinforced with this morning's deletion of one of bashings extended to a different member.

As for my post, I simply mentioned that what Yingluck reports is not reported anywhere else. It's factual and not abusive.

As its obvious with your latest baiting, it's your desire to start yet another one of your patented argumentative-squabbling-ending-up-deleted sessions, I'll not participate in your effort today.

.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

Other than purely baiting for yet another one of your patented argumentative-squabbling-ending-up-deleted sessions, there are far more media posts discrediting Yingluck by simply quoting her than I could ever muster up.

Actually the responsible media reports do criticise the government where there has been poor decision making and slow responses.Entirely legitimate both in the press and on this forum

But for you it's all about piling on abuse

At a time of national emergency it's entirely appropriate to point this out, and to pinpoint your ridiculous excesses such as the post in question.

The PM seems capable of cutting her own throat with every word she speaks or tear she sheds, and non-decesion she makes

Precisely.

.

[Buchholz]

The headline should read opposition MPs. the implication of this headline is that a majority of parliamentarians are wary, but where are all the quotes from the government side MPs?

By the way Thailand has vast reserves of currency (12th most in the world) and a reasonably small amount of that could be tapped into to resolve these problems without any negative economic effect. And what better use for reserves than infrastructure projects for the better of the country and all its people.

It sure would be nice to have an actual plan on how to do those things before dipping into that till.

As well as having a clear idea as to exactly how deep that till-dipping is going to be. Right now, it's unknown with a figures seemingly pulled out of the air.

p.s. I don't read "MP's" as implying a majority. If it had said, "Most MP's" then I would have.

There's a number of thread titled "MP's", but I never take it to meaning a majority.

.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Buchholz

[jayboy]

Your self-righteousness is nauseating.

I'm happy for the exchanges to be reviewed and for reasonable people draw their own conclusions

[jonclark]

Sarcasm noted. But I'm talking about real investment across the entire education system, new schools, higher wages, teaching and learning standards raised. A far better use of a loan than digging a set of tunnels which will remian unused for most of the year.

Education is no good to anyone if the country is flooded for 2-3 months every year.

Also, education doesn't just need money thrown at it. It needs a complete overhaul of attitudes.

The voice of reason.

Education should be upgraded and there is no two ways about that.

How ever if the floods still continue to control the country year after year no amount of education will help.

The knowledge is already here just a question of using it.

<deleted> - floods year after year - Okay please give details of floods which controlled the country in these years.

2000??

2001??

2002?

2003?

2004?

2005?

2006?

2007?

2008?

2009?

2010?

Exactly there weren't any floods these years (i could go back further but I think i've made my point) . Just because we have a single once in a lifetime / generation flood this year it's hardly an indicator of repeat of floods of this magnitude in subsequent years (2012, 2013 etc).

What this 800 Billion baht represents is very bad value for money for the the country which could be better spent elesewhere. And lets remember it's the tax payer or natives who foot the bill either with taxable contributions or reduced public services.

[Buchholz]

There is room for criticism of government etc but what has been seen in a lot of cases in recent weeks go far beyond that to what looks like a campaign to try and oust government by a group who seem to want things to get worse

Could you share examples that lead you to believe that the overall disgruntlement of many, many Thais with their government is a coordinated campaign?

I do see lots of criticism in the media and social networks in English and Thai, but I've not seen anything to indicate it was all part of a larger coordinated plot to oust the government.

From what I see, it seems more like just a lot of people, of all walks, who are simply and genuinely upset with the government's abysmal response to the flooding and voicing that in Facebook, Pantip, Twitter, forums, etc.

What do you see differently that would indicate a conspiracy?

.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Buchholz

[Bagwan]

The headline should read opposition MPs. the implication of this headline is that a majority of parliamentarians are wary, but where are all the quotes from the government side MPs?

By the way Thailand has vast reserves of currency (12th most in the world) and a reasonably small amount of that could be tapped into to resolve these problems without any negative economic effect. And what better use for reserves than infrastructure projects for the better of the country and all its people.

Has anybody had recent sight of these currency reserves? Where are they kept? Can they be visited and viewed? Or is this yet another wishful figment of imagination of yet another corrupt Government? Was there not supposed to be multiple warehouses bursting at the seams with rice and longan reserves but when called upon it was found that they had vanished into thin air?

[jonclark]

Sarcasm noted. But I'm talking about real investment across the entire education system, new schools, higher wages, teaching and learning standards raised. A far better use of a loan than digging a set of tunnels which will remian unused for most of the year.

Education is no good to anyone if the country is flooded for 2-3 months every year.

Also, education doesn't just need money thrown at it. It needs a complete overhaul of attitudes.

The voice of reason.

Education should be upgraded and there is no two ways about that.

How ever if the floods still continue to control the country year after year no amount of education will help.

The knowledge is already here just a question of using it.

<deleted> - floods year after year - Okay please give details of floods which controlled the country in these years.

2000??

2001??

2002?

2003?

2004?

2005?

2006?

2007?

2008?

2009?

2010?

Exactly there weren't any floods these years (i could go back further but I think i've made my point) . Just because we have a single once in a lifetime / generation flood this year it's hardly an indicator of repeat of floods of this magnitude in subsequent years (2012, 2013 etc).

It's an 800 Billion baht WHAT IF...?

What this 800 Billion baht represents is very bad value for money for the the country which could be better spent elesewhere. And lets remember it's the tax payer or natives who foot the bill either with taxable contributions or reduced public services.