If they did, they'd get an a strong and unified support for their cause worldwide, plus in large groups of the Israeli public. Since they don't, they just don't have a case. If you are promoting and supporting terrorism, what moral basis will you rely on when speaking of other's evil deeds?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wrong !!! where have you been in the late 90s ?

Trying to rewrite history ? or plain ignorance ?

The only reason things went wrong is because Sharon and the right wing fundamentalist have assasinated Isaac Rabin when things were moving ahead. Sharon has publicy said that he will NEVER give the Palestinians an independant state and that he will break the peace process that Rabin started. What kind of message do you think it gives to the Palestinians ? hope maybe ?

When Rabin died, there was a power vaccum (Perez has always been weak and didn't have the strength to take over), that's how the right wing fundamentalists "took over". First with Barak, then with that POS of Nettanyau, and now with Sharon.

I am surprised Sharon didn't say to the Americans and to Bush to fuk off because they are definitely not on the same page. I think the only reason Bush is pushing for an Israeli/Palestinian resolution is because Tony Blair is on the case. He won't let go. He wants a resolve. He has made this his personal conquest (actually a noble cause). Bush has a debt to Tony with the Iraq mess and therefore he has no choice but to force that POS of Sharon to comply.

The key to the Conflict with respect to Israel is very, very simple.

It always has been.

From the Independence of the State, Israel has only demanded as its right, three things:

1. Recognition of the State (not yet achieved. Its existence is still denied by the vast majority of its neighbours).

2. Recognised borders (there are almost as many interpretations of where these borders should be as there are postings from the ignorant Belgian butterfly).

3. Security for the citizens of the State of Israel.

Solve those three positions and there would be no conflict in the area.

I have deliberately not named the Palestinians, because they have been a cause celebre for most of the wars fought against the State of Israel, beginning from the time in 1948 when they rejected the land offered to them for a Palestinian state. They and the rest of the Arabs in the area then attacked Israel.

It seems they are in conflict with Israel in 2005 because they now have changed their minds and want this land for a state (Oops, sorry about the wars, Jew-boys, give us our ball back. Terrorists? Us? Never!).

There are 3 points above that need to be resolved and a lot of dead bodies that need to be reconciled before that will ever happen.

I think over the years both parties have forfeited the rights to their so-called land.

The arabs claim to be on the side of the Palestinians so let them absorb the Palestinians while the US/Europe as biggest supporter of Israel can absorb the Jewish community. Land made available in this way can be run by Unicef or WWF.

I think over the years both parties have forfeited the rights to their so-called land.

The arabs claim to be on the side of the Palestinians so let them absorb the Palestinians while the US/Europe as biggest supporter of Israel can absorb the Jewish community. Land made available in this way can be run by Unicef or WWF.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unrealistic fantasy.

Do you also believe the US should be given back to the Native Americans - send all the whitemen back to Europe, the Blacks to Africa etc?

Just think of the logistics.

There must be a better and more final solution, don't you think?

If they did, they'd get an a strong and unified support for their cause worldwide, plus in large groups of the Israeli public. Since they don't, they just don't have a case. If you are promoting and supporting terrorism, what moral basis will you rely on when speaking of other's evil deeds?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wrong !!! where have you been in the late 90s ?

Trying to rewrite history ? or plain ignorance ?

The only reason things went wrong is because Sharon and the right wing fundamentalist have assasinated Isaac Rabin when things were moving ahead. Sharon has publicy said that he will NEVER give the Palestinians an independant state and that he will break the peace process that Rabin started. What kind of message do you think it gives to the Palestinians ? hope maybe ?

When Rabin died, there was a power vaccum (Perez has always been weak and didn't have the strength to take over), that's how the right wing fundamentalists "took over". First with Barak, then with that POS of Nettanyau, and now with Sharon.

I am surprised Sharon didn't say to the Americans and to Bush to fuk off because they are definitely not on the same page. I think the only reason Bush is pushing for an Israeli/Palestinian resolution is because Tony Blair is on the case. He won't let go. He wants a resolve. He has made this his personal conquest (actually a noble cause). Bush has a debt to Tony with the Iraq mess and therefore he has no choice but to force that POS of Sharon to comply.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the late 90s I might have been a bit closer to the events you describe than you think.

Your analysis is obsolete. The post 9/11 greater western fear and rejection of terrorism does not leave the Palestinian Authority much credit when it does not face terrorism in a clear way. Arafat could not understand it. Abu Mazen understands it better, but he is lacking the determination and strength to turn this understanding into actions.

Actually this idea to give Palestinians Israeli citizensip has been circulating for some time in "Israeli" circles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was discussed since '67, but was not seriously considered for over a decade. Buttertly, you live in the distant past.

I think over the years both parties have forfeited the rights to their so-called land.

The arabs claim to be on the side of the Palestinians so let them absorb the Palestinians while the US/Europe as biggest supporter of Israel can absorb the Jewish community. Land made available in this way can be run by Unicef or WWF.

Unrealistic fantasy.

Do you also believe the US should be given back to the Native Americans - send all the whitemen back to Europe, the Blacks to Africa etc?

Just think of the logistics.

There must be a better and more final solution, don't you think?

It's a fantasy indeed and ofcourse there must be a better and final solution.

It's a shame really that people of different religious background cannot seem to find a way to live together. It's not impossible but it has to start with the common people on both sides who are fed-up with the fighting. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have reached this point already but there's a whole lot more on either side that can't break with past wrongs so it will take a while.

From the Independence of the State, Israel has only demanded as its right, three things:

1. Recognition of the State (not yet achieved. Its existence is still denied by the vast majority of its neighbours).

2. Recognised borders (there are almost as many interpretations of where these borders should be as there are postings from the ignorant Belgian butterfly).

3. Security for the citizens of the State of Israel.

Solve those three positions and there would be no conflict in the area.

Not so simple. In '48, many palestinians were forced to leave their homes. The names of the villages were changed to Israeli names. In '67, a similar process occured. How come there so many palestinians in refugee camps. This events are not being taught or explained clearly in Israeli schools. They are rather supressed or ignored.

Now, things cannot be reversed. This is ridiculous. But as much as Palestinians need to recognize terrorism is not the way, Israelies need to acknoledge some basic truths about the Palestinian people.

I think over the years both parties have forfeited the rights to their so-called land.

The arabs claim to be on the side of the Palestinians so let them absorb the Palestinians while the US/Europe as biggest supporter of Israel can absorb the Jewish community. Land made available in this way can be run by Unicef or WWF.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually this idea to give Palestinians Israeli citizensip has been circulating for some time in "Israeli" circles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was discussed since '67, but was not seriously considered for over a decade. Buttertly, you live in the distant past.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stop the post 9/11 bullshit, it was a lame excuse for the American Nazis (ie NeoCons) to take over.

As for an old idea to resurface in the recent debates, how is that to live in the past ? obviously you line of reasoning is pre-1967 and post-911. Does it hurt to have your brain stretched that far apart ?

The post 9/11 greater western fear and rejection of terrorism does not leave the Palestinian Authority much credit when it does not face terrorism in a clear way. Arafat could not understand it. Abu Mazen understands it better, but he is lacking the determination and strength to turn this understanding into actions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Straw man arguments. Palestinian insurgency has nothing to do with the anti-western terrorism (they hate our freedom) of 911. It's like comparing Iraq insurgency with the cause of terrorism for 911. Completely out of line.

These arguments are in line with the one of simpletons like Boon Me and Spee.

Shame on you ~G~ for being so lazy with your arguments. I was wrong, you don't live in the past, you live in a different dimension.

Actually this idea to give Palestinians Israeli citizensip has been circulating for some time in "Israeli" circles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was discussed since '67, but was not seriously considered for over a decade. Buttertly, you live in the distant past.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stop the post 9/11 bullshit, it was a lame excuse for the American Nazis (ie NeoCons) to take over.

As for an old idea to resurface in the recent debates, how is that to live in the past ? obviously you line of reasoning is pre-1967 and post-911. Does it hurt to have your brain stretched that far apart ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No it doesn't. It does roll on the floor laughing when reading your posts.

The key to the Conflict with respect to Israel is very, very simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That alone expose you as the pseudo and fraudulent intellectual that you are. No only you do not understand that conflict, but you have the guts to think that your high school level solution is anything more than a "naive" attempt to resolve a century old war.

The post 9/11 greater western fear and rejection of terrorism does not leave the Palestinian Authority much credit when it does not face terrorism in a clear way. Arafat could not understand it. Abu Mazen understands it better, but he is lacking the determination and strength to turn this understanding into actions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Straw man arguments. Palestinian insurgency has nothing to do with the anti-western terrorism (they hate our freedom) of 911. It's like comparing Iraq insurgency with the cause of terrorism for 911. Completely out of line.

These arguments are in line with the one of simpletons like Boon Me and Spee.

Shame on you ~G~ for being so lazy with your arguments. I was wrong, you don't live in the past, you live in a different dimension.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't even come close to understanding my arguments, mate. You don't separate between public opinion and actual causes. Public opinion calls the shots; real causes and reasons are mostly ignored or overlooked.

Of course palestinian uprising has nothing to do with 9/11. But unfortunetaly as far as the majority of Americans and Europeans are concerned this distinctintion between 'that terrorism" and "this terrorism" is not so clear.

As an evidence Israel is using these kinds of demagogic arguments quite successfully. So does the US with Iraq. No sense in the comparison, correct, but it does work on the public. And that is the power politicians obey to.

Of course palestinian uprising has nothing to do with 9/11. But unfortunetaly as far as the majority of Americans and Europeans are concerned this distinctintion between 'that terrorism" and "this terrorism" is not so clear.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Showing your ignorance again

The European public has always been able to seperate Iraq and the Palestinian cause with the cause of Terrorism, that's why even in the UK, the majority of the public opposed the Iraq war and still support the Palestinian cause (Blair pet project)

As for the American public, it's no secret that the ignorance and the vast stupidity of the American public is the reason behind the confusion. That's why Bush was able to mislead them to think the war on terror will be fought in Iraq. Nobody OUTSIDE the US believed that so if you think for a minute that the Euros are on the same page as the Americans, then you need to have a brain check.

The distinction is very clear. Not in your mind maybe or in your fellow americans, but for the rest of us it is.

Back to you Bobby !!!

<snip>There must be a better and more final solution, don't you think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You actually typed those words and you have the Flag of Israel as your avtar. Very strange choice of words for anyone who studies history.

Of course palestinian uprising has nothing to do with 9/11. But unfortunetaly as far as the majority of Americans and Europeans are concerned this distinctintion between 'that terrorism" and "this terrorism" is not so clear.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Showing your ignorance again

The European public has always been able to seperate Iraq and the Palestinian cause with the cause of Terrorism, that's why even in the UK, the majority of the public opposed the Iraq war and still support the Palestinian cause (Blair pet project)

As for the American public, it's no secret that the ignorance and the vast stupidity of the American public is the reason behind the confusion. That's why Bush was able to mislead them to think the war on terror will be fought in Iraq. Nobody OUTSIDE the US believed that so if you think for a minute that the Euros are on the same page as the Americans, then you need to have a brain check.

The distinction is very clear. Not in your mind maybe or in your fellow americans, but for the rest of us it is.

Back to you Bobby !!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This problem might be more obvious in the US, but it also exists in Europe. Not only lack of clear distinction between Palestinian uprising and Al Queda. It goes to seeing Muslims and Islam as a whole in a negative light.

Why do muslims in UK and France claiming prejudice? "Islamic Awareness Week" in UK, what is it for, if those Brits are so enlightened as you describe?

And in Belgium?

For example, the odious far right Flemish Vlaams Blok party has played on the current climate of Islamophobia in its recent campaign against plans to allow non-EU foreigners to vote in Belgium's local elections.

This week the Blok proudly announced that it had managed to gather nearly 70,000 signatures for a petition it is supporting against the new law.

Enlightened, well informed Europeans? Another shattered myth.

<snip>There must be a better and more final solution, don't you think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You actually typed those words and you have the Flag of Israel as your avtar. Very strange choice of words for anyone who studies history.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know exactly what my words mean. I chose them very carefully.

I was hoping readers would be able to see the obvious - that any forced "ethnic cleansing" of Israel, is only a half step away from previously tried, final solutions to the Jewish problem.

From the Independence of the State, Israel has only demanded as its right, three things:

1. Recognition of the State (not yet achieved. Its existence is still denied by the vast majority of its neighbours).

2. Recognised borders (there are almost as many interpretations of where these borders should be as there are postings from the ignorant Belgian butterfly).

3. Security for the citizens of the State of Israel.

Solve those three positions and there would be no conflict in the area.

Not so simple. In '48, many palestinians were forced to leave their homes. The names of the villages were changed to Israeli names. In '67, a similar process occured. How come there so many palestinians in refugee camps. This events are not being taught or explained clearly in Israeli schools. They are rather supressed or ignored.

Now, things cannot be reversed. This is ridiculous. But as much as Palestinians need to recognize terrorism is not the way, Israelies need to acknoledge some basic truths about the Palestinian people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But it is.

Whatever the twists and turns of fanatical Zionism and equally, Palestinian fanatical self-righteousness, if those 3 issues were solved - they are the only issues upon which the State of Israel has gone to war - there would be no significant conflict remaining.

Apart from the minor disagreements found between neighbouring states concerning e.g communication, transport, allocation of natural resources etc.

In fact the time would be in for creating economic units - federations of states, that because of the natural abilities of the people of the Levant and its surrounding areas, and the rich resources in the area, would soon be rivalling and overtaking the European Union and others.

Believe me, all other discussions are red herrings.

Until those three issues are solved, ther will never be Peace.

Shabat Shalom.

Whatever the twists and turns of fanatical Zionism and equally, Palestinian fanatical self-righteousness, if those 3 issues were solved - they are the only issues upon which the State of Israel has gone to war - there would be no significant conflict remaining.

Isn't it Palestinian fanatical self-righteousness and fanatical Zionism that prevents these 3 issues to be solved?

Sha'alu shalom Yerushalayim : Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

Israelis made their desert bloom. They built the only industrialized

economy in the entire Middle East. They built the only liberal

democracy in the Middle East.

And that give them the right to be racist and kill all the Palestinians ?

And that give them the right to be racist and kill all the Palestinians ? 

If the Palestinians want to remove them from the face of the earth as do the I-Rainians...

This problem might be more obvious in the US, but it also exists in Europe. Not only lack of clear distinction between Palestinian uprising and Al Queda. It goes to seeing Muslims and Islam as a whole in a negative light.

Why do muslims in UK and France claiming prejudice? "Islamic Awareness Week" in UK, what is it for, if those Brits are so enlightened as you describe?

And in Belgium?

For example, the odious far right Flemish Vlaams Blok party has played on the current climate of Islamophobia in its recent campaign against plans to allow non-EU foreigners to vote in Belgium's local elections.

This week the Blok proudly announced that it had managed to gather nearly 70,000 signatures for a petition it is supporting against the new law.

Enlightened, well informed Europeans? Another shattered myth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now you are mixing apples and oranges.

An immigration problem with AQ terrorism ? you got to be kidding

You have a major logic and comprehension problem ~G~, I suggest you check your brain. Bird Flu Fever ?

Whatever the twists and turns of fanatical Zionism and equally, Palestinian fanatical self-righteousness, if those 3 issues were solved - they are the only issues upon which the State of Israel has gone to war - there would be no significant conflict remaining.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Isn't it Palestinian fanatical self-righteousness and fanatical Zionism that prevents these 3 issues to be solved?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In a way, seen from outside Israel, it would be easy to conclude as you do.

But there are fundamental differences

Israel is a democracy. The consensus politics of the two major parties is that the solution to the conflict has its basis in the three points:

1. Recognition of the State

2. Recognised borders

3. Security for the citizens of the State of Israel.

Just look at the agreements made with the two former enemies of the State – Egypt and Jordan – they have their basis in these three points.

Israel’s opponents, on the other hand, are long from being democracies. They are tribal enclaves, often dependant on personal whim and family gain when addressing the issues of the “tribe”.

Despite Israel’s regular reaching out with the hand of peace based on the three points, they have been constantly spat on, by the rejection of diplomatic solutions, the continuing wars and the obscene terrorism.

Whatever the twists and turns of fanatical Zionism and equally, Palestinian fanatical self-righteousness, if those 3 issues were solved - they are the only issues upon which the State of Israel has gone to war - there would be no significant conflict remaining.

Isn't it Palestinian fanatical self-righteousness and fanatical Zionism that prevents these 3 issues to be solved?

In a way, seen from outside Israel, it would be easy to conclude as you do.

But there are fundamental differences

Israel is a democracy. The consensus politics of the two major parties is that the solution to the conflict has its basis in the three points:

1. Recognition of the State

2. Recognised borders

3. Security for the citizens of the State of Israel.

Just look at the agreements made with the two former enemies of the State – Egypt and Jordan – they have their basis in these three points.

Israel’s opponents, on the other hand, are long from being democracies. They are tribal enclaves, often dependant on personal whim and family gain when addressing the issues of the “tribe”.

Despite Israel’s regular reaching out with the hand of peace based on the three points, they have been constantly spat on, by the rejection of diplomatic solutions, the continuing wars and the obscene terrorism.

Do you think Syria would keep on creating as much trouble for Israel if they were given back the Golan heights? If you try to see it from their point of view, why would they want to recognize the borders Israel is striving for? What's in it for them?

Shabat Shalom.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At the end of the day we drink the same water and breathe the same air.

It comes down to who has the "Moral Victory"... Why is the argument of one side and the moral ground any better than the opponent.

I suppose its that one group control a great percentage of the American media, and the other doesn't.

When the media force feeds an opinion, then we eventually accept it, right or not.

Whatever the twists and turns of fanatical Zionism and equally, Palestinian fanatical self-righteousness, if those 3 issues were solved - they are the only issues upon which the State of Israel has gone to war - there would be no significant conflict remaining.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Isn't it Palestinian fanatical self-righteousness and fanatical Zionism that prevents these 3 issues to be solved?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In a way, seen from outside Israel, it would be easy to conclude as you do.

But there are fundamental differences

Israel is a democracy. The consensus politics of the two major parties is that the solution to the conflict has its basis in the three points:

1. Recognition of the State

2. Recognised borders

3. Security for the citizens of the State of Israel.

Just look at the agreements made with the two former enemies of the State – Egypt and Jordan – they have their basis in these three points.

Israel’s opponents, on the other hand, are long from being democracies. They are tribal enclaves, often dependant on personal whim and family gain when addressing the issues of the “tribe”.

Despite Israel’s regular reaching out with the hand of peace based on the three points, they have been constantly spat on, by the rejection of diplomatic solutions, the continuing wars and the obscene terrorism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you think Syria would keep on creating as much trouble for Israel if they were given back the Golan heights? If you try to see it from their point of view, why would they want to recognize the borders Israel is striving for? What's in it for them?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You skip around the unsaid recent history of the Golan Heights.

Prior to 1967 the Golan Heights was – undisputed by Israel – Syrian territory.

However the Syrians fortified these heights which tower over a 1,000 feet above the neighbouring Israeli villages. The Syrians used the period up to the 1967 6-day War to bombard these villages below with heavy artillery.

In 1967 the Israelis scaled these heights with some of the bloodiest hand-to-hand fighting ever experienced.

The Israelis have maintained control of these heights since then, despite nearly loosing them in 1973 when the Syrians as part of a two pronged attack on the State of Israel (led in the South by Egypt), attacked again to retain this vital (for the security of Israel) tactical advantage point.

The Israelis may well agree to return the Golan Heights to Syria – the science of war has moved on from the advantages of troops or electronic equipment place at greater “earthly” heights.

But Syria is not interested in coming to an agreement with Israel. Anti-Judaism is so endemic in Syria, it even out-classes Nazi Germany.

Until there is a change in the regime in Syria plus the introduction of democracy and a cleansing of the Syrian education system for all of it racism, Syria will remain just as much a threat for peace in the region as Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.

............However the Syrians fortified these heights which.......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who cares.

At least Syria has a legitimate claim to their spoil.