I am curious Kat what you think of the orginal post?

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I'll tell you in a minute.

The only generalisation I make about Americans is that the are fat and a little bit stupid, I don't think they would get anything more complicated than that

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Well, last I checked, Brits are just as fat and probably just as stupid, but drink a lot more beer of better quality on an hourly basis.

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Nope Americans are top of the fat index, followed by Australians we are well down the list after samoans, swedes and a load of other fat nations...see WHO surveys on adult obesity, or are you going to prove my second point and refuse to see the truth that stares you in the face as per standard US blindfold refusenik technique

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I have no problem with the truth. Your first comment was indeed a generalization, so I returned the favor. You've now changed your actual comment, by saying that Americans are at the top of the fat index according to WHO. That is different than merely stating that Americans are fat.

Seems like you're chomping at the bit to brand and catalogue me. Now you are trying to call me stupid because I responded to your initial, generalized half "truth", in kind? You're going to have to try a lot harder, and you can start by using logic instead of slogans and hypocrisy.

edit

Okay, right now I am sick. I go to the store to get more nasal decongestant, which means I will be buying a drug know as pseudoephedrine hydrochloride, or sudafed.

Now, I don't want is going on in Thailand or other countries, but here we have a meth problem. Sudafed can make meth, so, all the little junkies and dealers started buying or stealing sudefed. The store started to keep the sudafed behind the counter to stop people from stealing it. So, this is where I go.

The man behind the counter asks me if I have bought sudafed here before and asks to see my diver's license.  I tell him I have and he "checks" the system. Well, I am not in it. So, my name, my address, and my telephone must be entered into the system to buy this sudafed. It's the law now, he says.

Once this in done he rings up my sudafed, but before we get to the part where I pay, I have to sign electroniclly that I am who I say I am and I am buying one box of sudafed. This is also entered into the system. NOW, I can buy my sudafed!

So, now a law has been passed and stores that sell sudafed must keep track of all those persons who buy the drug and how much of the drug they purchase each time they purchase it.

So, there is one more thing the gov gets to have power over and just one more thing they are watching. Big Brother doesn't want us doing meth so eveybody needs to supply personal information to a stranger behind a counter just so they can unstuff a stuffy nose. Why? All because of some fck wad with habit. I don't know who to more mad at.

Can you guess what country I live in?

Should I be nervous?

I havent read the whole thread but it looked like it was going off topic anyway

I can remember back in the 70's I took Sudafed in the morning after taking an aspirin the night before....I still cant remember driving to work that morning....I was living with a nurse back then and checked her MIMS book and found that it was a mind altering drug....back then there was no speed problem so it was freely available to everyone over the counter

In the 80's it was the main ingredient of a go juice for racehorses, then it became the drug of the 90's, a cheap alternative to smack.

When it was first introduced, nobody even thought that it would come what it has become today, but now it has, it needs to be restricted.

Dont be pissled off because there is so much you have to do to buy it.....just be glad that these restrictions may save someones life.

So, there is one more thing the gov gets to have power over and just one more thing they are watching. Big Brother doesn't want us doing meth so eveybody needs to supply personal information to a stranger behind a counter just so they can unstuff a stuffy nose. Why? All because of some fck wad with habit. I don't know who to more mad at.

Your frustration and rage is justified my friend, but the directions of your anger are misplaced. I realize all you want is some nasal decongestant, but ....

First off, you should never provide this kind of information. Second, you should ask to see the store manager and find out exactly what is going on. Third, if they tell you a law has been passed, then you ask them to recite chapter and verse exactly what that law requires them to do.

Then you write to the CEO not only of that drug store, but every drug store that does business in your state and explain the invasion of privacy problem. You explain how this is going to cost them business in the long run and they should fight with their local lobbyists to overturn the law.

Then you write to your local and regional politicians and explain why this invasion of privacy is a problem and demand that the law be rescinded.

Then you go make friends with the local TV stations and make them publicize why and how the local government is attacking a mosquito problem with a bazooka. Politicians don't like to look bad in the limelight.

Etc, etc, etc.

Forgot who it was who first said it (Jefferson, Franklin or one of America's founding fathers) but it was something to the effect of:

"Your rights only remain rights up to the point when you choose to quit fighting for them."

And after the OP has done all that......they still have a runny nose.......

Okay, right now I am sick. I go to the store to get more nasal decongestant, which means I will be buying a drug know as pseudoephedrine hydrochloride, or sudafed.

Now, I don't want is going on in Thailand or other countries, but here we have a meth problem. Sudafed can make meth, so, all the little junkies and dealers started buying or stealing sudefed. The store started to keep the sudafed behind the counter to stop people from stealing it. So, this is where I go.

The man behind the counter asks me if I have bought sudafed here before and asks to see my diver's license.  I tell him I have and he "checks" the system. Well, I am not in it. So, my name, my address, and my telephone must be entered into the system to buy this sudafed. It's the law now, he says.

Once this in done he rings up my sudafed, but before we get to the part where I pay, I have to sign electroniclly that I am who I say I am and I am buying one box of sudafed. This is also entered into the system. NOW, I can buy my sudafed!

So, now a law has been passed and stores that sell sudafed must keep track of all those persons who buy the drug and how much of the drug they purchase each time they purchase it.

So, there is one more thing the gov gets to have power over and just one more thing they are watching. Big Brother doesn't want us doing meth so eveybody needs to supply personal information to a stranger behind a counter just so they can unstuff a stuffy nose. Why? All because of some fck wad with habit. I don't know who to more mad at.

Can you guess what country I live in?

Should I be nervous?

Dont be pissled off because there is so much you have to do to buy it.....just be glad that these restrictions may save someones life.

Best comment of the entire thread...

Okay, right now I am sick. I go to the store to get more nasal decongestant, which means I will be buying a drug know as pseudoephedrine hydrochloride, or sudafed.

Now, I don't want is going on in Thailand or other countries, but here we have a meth problem. Sudafed can make meth, so, all the little junkies and dealers started buying or stealing sudefed. The store started to keep the sudafed behind the counter to stop people from stealing it. So, this is where I go.

The man behind the counter asks me if I have bought sudafed here before and asks to see my diver's license.  I tell him I have and he "checks" the system. Well, I am not in it. So, my name, my address, and my telephone must be entered into the system to buy this sudafed. It's the law now, he says.

Once this in done he rings up my sudafed, but before we get to the part where I pay, I have to sign electroniclly that I am who I say I am and I am buying one box of sudafed. This is also entered into the system. NOW, I can buy my sudafed!

So, now a law has been passed and stores that sell sudafed must keep track of all those persons who buy the drug and how much of the drug they purchase each time they purchase it.

So, there is one more thing the gov gets to have power over and just one more thing they are watching. Big Brother doesn't want us doing meth so eveybody needs to supply personal information to a stranger behind a counter just so they can unstuff a stuffy nose. Why? All because of some fck wad with habit. I don't know who to more mad at.

Can you guess what country I live in?

Should I be nervous?

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I havent read the whole thread but it looked like it was going off topic anyway

I can remember back in the 70's I took Sudafed in the morning after taking an aspirin the night before....I still cant remember driving to work that morning....I was living with a nurse back then and checked her MIMS book and found that it was a mind altering drug....back then there was no speed problem so it was freely available to everyone over the counter

In the 80's it was the main ingredient of a go juice for racehorses, then it became the drug of the 90's, a cheap alternative to smack.

When it was first introduced, nobody even thought that it would come what it has become today, but now it has, it needs to be restricted.

Dont be pissled off because there is so much you have to do to buy it.....just be glad that these restrictions may save someones life.

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Who's life am I saving?

Why should I gave out personal information that someone could use against me to save someone?

Especially, if that someone is a junkie who willing put themselves in that state of addiction?

Thaibebop:

While I can understand your frustration about increased government surveillance and harassment of certain sectors of American society, I can't agree with you on this thread.

I hate the censorship and control that is used to manipulate political freedom, but I appreciate controls that are used to manage substance abuse. This doesn't mean that I want to see substance abuse criminalized, but I have no problem getting "harassed" at an airport for security reasons, and I have no problem with control mechanisms that are enforced to reduce Meth production.

Now, I haven't experienced the process you describe because I have been living in Thailand for the past few years. However, I have witnessed the societal problems that Meth abuse has caused over here. Perhaps this has affected my viewpoint.

Thaibebop:

While I can understand your frustration about increased government surveillance and harassment of certain sectors of American society, I can't agree with you on this thread. 

I hate the censorship and control that is used to manipulate political freedom, but I appreciate controls that are used to manage substance abuse.  This doesn't mean that I want to see substance abuse criminalized, but I have no problem getting "harassed" at an airport for security reasons, and I have no problem with control mechanisms that are enforced to reduce Meth production.

Now, I haven't experienced the process you describe because I have been living in Thailand for the past few years.  However, I have witnessed the societal problems that Meth abuse has caused over here.  Perhaps this has affected my viewpoint.

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It's getting way outta hand. People go through the airports and have files pulled up on their laptops as part of a security check. The number that can be used to get at anything about my person in the one used by everybody. Idenity theft has become a problem because corporate America wants to use your social security number to keep track of your purchases. Hacker don't get this info from the gov, they get from the businesses. I am have been places that if I sat there for an hour and listened I would have a list of people's personal information to use.

What happened to innocent until proven guilty? I shouldn't have to do go through any crap just because I may not use the product as it was meant to be use, and neither should the meth junkie. It's none of their dame business and no law has been broken until that junkie goes home and makes meth.

Sorry, I am rambling and having trouble finding my point. I hope you get the gist of what I am saying, so I'll stop now.

How can we take you seriously uintil you prove who you say you are.

Place your eyes infront of this scanner and do not blink.

Place your index finger on the pad and do not move.

Anybody travelled through Gringo landia lately.

I'm with Bebop.

Fukc 'em. Move.

How can we take you seriously uintil you prove who you say you are.

Place your eyes infront of this scanner and do not blink.

Place your index finger on the pad and do not move.

Anybody travelled through Gringo landia lately.

I'm with Bebop.

Fukc 'em. Move.

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That's the game plan, brother.

I hear the Lake Atitlan is nice this time of year Beebs

I hear the Lake Atitlan is nice this time of year Beebs

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Where is that? Sorry, if it's joke, I guess I don't get it.

well, there's a little clown who manages a bar on the lake atitlan.... I don't know if that gives you a clue....

well, there's a little clown who manages a bar on the lake atitlan.... I don't know if that gives you a clue....

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Ah!

A lake you say? Is it clean? Are you "on" the lake or by it?

Bars by water are always nice to me. I love water. But I have a secret, I've never seen an ocean, with my own eyes that is. Sad, I know.

From the top of the volcanoes that are just across the lake from us, you can see the Pacific ocean.

We're a five minute walk from the lake.

C'mon down... We are having a mini tv.com piss up here in February.

From the top of the volcanoes that are just across the lake from us, you can see the Pacific ocean.

We're a five minute walk from the lake.

C'mon down... We are having a mini tv.com piss up here in February.

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I watched your slide show, and yes, looks like a wonderful place. But poor college student with no time. I haven't even to Thailand yet to met (it's short hand) meet the rest of my wife's family.

From the top of the volcanoes that are just across the lake from us, you can see the Pacific ocean.

We're a five minute walk from the lake.

C'mon down... We are having a mini tv.com piss up here in February.

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I watched your slide show, and yes, looks like a wonderful place. But poor college student with no time. I haven't even to Thailand yet to met (it's short hand) meet the rest of my wife's family.

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So stop off on the way and MET us down here.. Valentine day is the big birthday bash for the bar...

Tomorrow is mine... Today already in LOS!!!

From the top of the volcanoes that are just across the lake from us, you can see the Pacific ocean.

We're a five minute walk from the lake.

C'mon down... We are having a mini tv.com piss up here in February.

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I watched your slide show, and yes, looks like a wonderful place. But poor college student with no time. I haven't even to Thailand yet to met (it's short hand) meet the rest of my wife's family.

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So stop off on the way and MET us down here.. Valentine day is the big birthday bash for the bar...

Tomorrow is mine... Today already in LOS!!!

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Well, Happy Birthday......tomorrow!

I have put you on my list of places to go before I die. One day one way or another.

From the top of the volcanoes that are just across the lake from us, you can see the Pacific ocean.

We're a five minute walk from the lake.

C'mon down... We are having a mini tv.com piss up here in February.

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I watched your slide show, and yes, looks like a wonderful place. But poor college student with no time. I haven't even to Thailand yet to met (it's short hand) meet the rest of my wife's family.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So stop off on the way and MET us down here.. Valentine day is the big birthday bash for the bar...

Tomorrow is mine... Today already in LOS!!!

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Well, Happy Birthday......tomorrow!

I have put you on my list of places to go before I die. One day one way or another.

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Thanks Beebs :partytime:

I'll be here....

Gotta work, thanks for all (pm's etc...thanks to glauka and bambi and the colonel siipsaam too) and I'll see you tomorrow

Kayo has left the building.

thaibebop, the good news is that you are not alone

Tens of thousands mistakenly put on terrorist watch lists

http://news.com.com/Tens+of+thousands+mist...ml?tag=nefd.top

WASHINGTON--Nearly 30,000 airline passengers discovered in the past year that they were mistakenly placed on federal "terrorist" watch lists, a transportation security official said Tuesday.

Jim Kennedy, director of the Transportation Security Administration's redress office, revealed the errors at a quarterly meeting convened here by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security's Data Privacy and Integrity Advisory Committee.

Marcia Hofmann, staff counsel at the Electronic Privacy Information Center, said this appeared to be the first time such a large error has been admitted. "It was a novel figure to me," Hofmann said. "The figure shows that many more passengers than we've anticipated have encountered difficulty at airports. The watch list still has a long way to go before it does what it's supposed to do."

Kennedy said that travelers have had to ask the TSA to remove their names from watch lists by submitting a "Passenger Identity Verification Form" and three notarized identification documents. On average, he said, it takes officials 45 to 60 days to evaluate the request and make any necessary changes.

Travelers have been instructed to file the forms only after experiencing "repeated" travel delays, he said, because additional screening can occur for multiple reasons, including fitting a certain profile, flying on a one-way ticket, or being selected randomly by a computer.

Of the 30,000 people who said they were mistakenly placed on the list, none ever had been kept from boarding an airplane, Kennedy said. Their names appeared only on a "selectee list," where members are singled out for additional screening. Names on the "no-fly" list, however, are unilaterally barred from flying. The office said it hasn't been informed of any cases where people have disputed placement on the no-fly list.

After submitting their notarized forms and identifications, and waiting for evaluations, the vast majority of the people mistakenly placed on the watch list have now been added to a "clearance" list. That doesn't mean their names are erased from the watch list. In fact, travelers who go through the paperwork are told, Kennedy said, that "it will not quote 'remove' you from the list because the person we're still looking for is out there."

Instead, their names are put on the separate clearance list, which means they typically can't check in for flights at an unmanned kiosk and must approach the ticket counter to explain their situation and have an airline employee match their name to the clearance list.

A total of about 60 applicants had to be denied, as security officials couldn't determine that the applicants weren't actually the same as those named on the list, Kennedy said.

According to government statistics, about 1.8 million people travel on 30,000 separate commercial flights through the nation's airports every day. It is unclear how many names are on the TSA's selectee and no-fly watch lists.

Skepticism continues to swirl around a proposed passenger screening program known as Secure Flight, which government auditors and watchdog groups have criticized for failing to lay out clear goals or address privacy and data security concerns. New York-based lawyer Lisa Sotto, the acting committee chairman, called it "the most interesting topic to this group and the one that we're most concerned about."

Kennedy's remarks came after the advisory committee unanimously adopted a list of five broad recommendations for the Secure Flight program, which include: making the program more transparent to the public and airlines, which receive the daily watch lists; keeping the goals of the program narrowly focused; collecting minimal data; providing proactive, efficient ways for people to dispute wrongful delays or prohibitions from boarding flights; and regular audits by the Homeland Security Privacy Office.

Part of the reason government officials are clamoring for Secure Flight is that it is "designed to minimize the number of instances where people are misidentified as potential terrorist threats," Kennedy said, though he didn't elaborate on the reasons for that claim.

The recommendations to Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff are nonbinding. Chertoff was scheduled to speak to the committee on Tuesday but canceled at the last minute.

CNET News.com's Declan McCullagh contributed to this report.

"Those Who Would Sacrifice Liberty for Security Deserve Neither." - Franklin

I wish I could say I am surprised.

I wish I could say I am surprised.

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Everyone saw the writting on the Wall atfer 911, we knew it was going to happen, now we are witnessing it

Reader reactions are even better

I'm a strong civil libertarian and I don't like the inconvenience & crap people have to put up with because they are on the list by mistake. But what really bothers me is that if they are allowing these false positives to happen they are almost certainly are creating false negatives as well - the people who should be on the list and are not. Given the US FedGov's awful record of managing IT projects of any size I'm sure the people reponsible for fales positives are managing the other end of scale equally poorly.

You got that right !!!

This is in response to the story of 30k people being put on selectee no fly lists, by mistake.

I am one of those people. And yes, I disputed placement on that list, wether the gov't. wants to admit it or not!!! They state their office was never informed of people disputing their names on the list.

Just try to talk to someone at TSA!!! Talk about a RED TAPE snafu. Run around central, typical of any government entity. I have complained to my 2 senators and my representative. Only my rep. said he was trying to work against further legislation affecting honest people. The senators offices couldn't be bothered apparently.

I also sent an e-mail to the White House, and several e-mails to TSA. I kept getting TSA's standard line. Fill out the Pass. Ident. Verif. Form! We wont garuntee it will take you off the list. RIGHT!!! Just what I need, another gov't entity with my personal information. Thanks but no thanks.

I then sent the TSA e-mails back stating they didn't answer my question as to why I am considered innocent til proven guilty except with the TSA??? They sent a e-mail with a direct line phone number to their ombudsman. Got a recording...leave message we will return your call within 3 days.....RIGHT!!!

I got tired of the hassles.

Sometimes I can check-in on line, other times, I have to go to the baggage counter. So sometimes I'm a bad guy and then sometimes I am a good guy??? And I work for a law enforcement agency and my fingerprints are on file with the FBI???

Just another wonderful day at the airport. So much for proven innocent til guilty!!!

This one is priceless !!!

I get private escorts when I fly.. what aout you?

no.. I dont get "dakine" escorts when I fly anymore... now I get a rudolph reindeer wannabe type sitting right next to me... whats really fun to do.. is to start acting really nervous and jittery... tear up your magazine or something.. just before landing... scares the living **** out of em...

Heard in the new today Air Marshalls shot a man who "joked" about having a bomb. I saw something on my local news about the terrorist watch list, a man and his family couldn't board a plane to go to Disneyland because his six year old son is on the terror watch list.

The Dream is dead or dying, my ancestors died for nothing!

Heard in the new today Air Marshalls shot a man who "joked" about having a bomb. I saw something on my local news about the terrorist watch list, a man and his family couldn't board a plane to go to Disneyland because his six year old son is on the terror watch list.

The Dream is dead or dying, my ancestors died for nothing!

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Read that this morning online

Sad. The guy had some kind of medical condition actually and was asking for it according the cop who shot him. This was bond to happen. The Pandora box is open, so there is no way this kind of incidents will stop.

The Dream has been dead for quite a while actually. It just harder to "ignore" it now. And no, your ancestors didn't die for nothing. You had a few good years, it was worth it. Now the "Bush Royals" obsessed with Europe chaotic History will make sure that what happened in the past here will happen again in the US. We are witnessing the Europeanization of the US. Interesting on a Historic level actually.

Heard in the new today Air Marshalls shot a man who "joked" about having a bomb. I saw something on my local news about the terrorist watch list, a man and his family couldn't board a plane to go to Disneyland because his six year old son is on the terror watch list.

The Dream is dead or dying, my ancestors died for nothing!

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The New World Order

I don't know if I should just leave or try to change it. I think trying to change it means war of some kind.

I don't know if I should just leave or try to change it. I think trying to change it means war of some kind.

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I don't know what you are getting all workup about it. You were the first one to tell me only a few months ago that it was no "use" to debate or "blame" the Bush administration for what they were doing wrong. I think somehow you are right. It's too late for that kind of debate. You lost the war on the morning after 911 when the Bush administration thought it would be cute to limit "freedom" to save "freedom". Shit happens. You will learn how to live with it. If that can make you feel better, other countries are not perfect either and each country has its own set of freedom "limitations"

I don't know if I should just leave or try to change it. I think trying to change it means war of some kind.

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I don't know what you are getting all workup about it. You were the first one to tell me only a few months ago that it was no "use" to debate or "blame" the Bush administration for what they were doing wrong. I think somehow you are right. It's too late for that kind of debate. You lost the war on the morning after 911 when the Bush administration thought it would be cute to limit "freedom" to save "freedom". Shit happens. You will learn how to live with it. If that can make you feel better, other countries are not perfect either and each country has its own set of freedom "limitations"

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You're right, I said that. You're right, it's most likely pointless, but that doesn't change the fact that I "feel" like I should do something.

Heard in the new today Air Marshalls shot a man who "joked" about having a bomb. I saw something on my local news about the terrorist watch list, a man and his family couldn't board a plane to go to Disneyland because his six year old son is on the terror watch list.

The Dream is dead or dying, my ancestors died for nothing!

The New World Order

Well, get the story right.

The jerk that "joked" about the bomb in his bag fcuked up - plain & simple.

You don't "Joke" about bombs on airplanes like you don't yell Fire in a crowded movie theater...

Heard in the new today Air Marshalls shot a man who "joked" about having a bomb. I saw something on my local news about the terrorist watch list, a man and his family couldn't board a plane to go to Disneyland because his six year old son is on the terror watch list.

The Dream is dead or dying, my ancestors died for nothing!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The New World Order

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, get the story right.

The jerk that "joked" about the bomb in his bag fcuked up - plain & simple.

You don't "Joke" about bombs on airplanes like you don't yell Fire in a crowded movie theater...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly Boon - if the lad blew the plane up then what??? You'd be get well why didnt they shoot him?