Remembering

[Gonzo the Face]

I would like to ask those who may have had their lives changed by it, to take a moment and remember those who lost their lives or may have had their lives impacted,,,,,, today Dec 7th is Pearl Harbor Day. May all who perished ,on all sides, rest in peace.

[HHBM]

First thing I thought about when I considered the date (that will live in infamy)...

[Khun Jean]

It was a great day for FDR and company, not so for the rest of the world.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Khun Jean

[Beetlejuice]

My grandfather once told me; the Japs done us a favour when they attacked Pearl Harbor, otherwise America would never have become involved in the war and Britain would have still been fighting alone without enough manpower or resources. Also considering that at the time it was debatable as to what side the Americas would have fought with.

Prior to America becoming forced into the war by Japan, it was called the European war and did not become known as a world war until America’s involvement.

[Beetlejuice]

//// Trolling nonsense removed ////

Had the Americans resisted being drawn into the war in Europe, then Europe would be much different today,we (Europeans) owe them a debt of thanks,we can never repay!

The Americans had resisted being drawn into the war in Europe until it landed on their doorstep. We were all in it together during WW11as part of the allies. All brave men fighting for each other as a team, brothers in arms and that includes the Russians who lost 20000000.

Never forget and never again.

Edited December 7, 2012 by metisdead

[weegee]

The americans cant resist a conflict

Thank christ they were there for all of us....they did their part the same as many other counties.

If not....you wouldnt have been born....and no one would have been able to enjoy the freedom we have today....name one country thats not in debt to the Allies.

It's sad to see any country's flag being burnt....especially(America) a country that sacrificed along with the other countries, to give you the freedom of speach especially. This is not the thread to put shit on the yanks.....this is to remember what was done for us by Allies, and is a special day for Americans....start your own thread if you need to bag yanks.

[SimonD]

"So we have won after all!"

Winston Churchill's response when informed of the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Rather sums it up, don't you think?

[h90]

//// Trolling nonsense removed ////

Had the Americans resisted being drawn into the war in Europe, then Europe would be much different today,we (Europeans) owe them a debt of thanks,we can never repay!

Than we would had the European Union 50 years earlier and the Nazi Regime might have fallen way faster than the Communists. And the Americans didn't start the war with Germany to free us, they did it for their own selfish reasons. If we need to thank someone than the we must thank the Soviets who had terrible loses and without them Germany would have stayed longer and would have been nuked by the Americans with some million more dead.

But what has Pear Harbor to do with Thailand?

Edited December 7, 2012 by metisdead

[MAJIC]

//// Trolling nonsense removed ////

Had the Americans resisted being drawn into the war in Europe, then Europe would be much different today,we (Europeans) owe them a debt of thanks,we can never repay!

Than we would had the European Union 50 years earlier and the Nazi Regime might have fallen way faster than the Communists. And the Americans didn't start the war with Germany to free us, they did it for their own selfish reasons. If we need to thank someone than the we must thank the Soviets who had terrible loses and without them Germany would have stayed longer and would have been nuked by the Americans with some million more dead.

But what has Pear Harbor to do with Thailand?

The thread is not about Thailand,its about Remembering those that gave their lives for others,and not about the Politics of WWII,either!

Edited December 7, 2012 by metisdead

[SimonD]

... And the Americans didn't start the war with Germany to free us, they did it for their own selfish reasons.

Hitler declared war on the USA on December 11th, not the other way around. Agree about the Soviet contribution but that wouldn't have helped the western allies if they had overrun all of Europe, would it?

[TomTao]

My grandfather (Australian) fought with the American navy during WW2 after being refused by the Australian navy because of being colour blind, he saw a fair bit of action including one of the ships he was on being sunk by a Japanese torpedo.

Sent from my GT-I9003

[Rancid]

It was a devestating attack and a tragedy for all the people and servicemen that lost their lives and their long sufferring families. However it would seem that the attack was expected, even the Aussies told the Yanks it was coming, so those that knew also carry the blood of the entire Pacific War on their hands. However it did bring the US into the war which obviously changed the outcome. Many made their fortunes in that war just like the wars before it, there again isn't that just what is happening now? Soldiers die and capitalists get rich, same as it ever was.

[stoneyboy]

While it may have been a devastating attack with great loss of life,the US were still very fortunate in the Second World War,they never experienced the prolonged and tragic bombing raids that much of the European theatre witnessed,they still to this day don't know what it's like to be under attack,that is evident from the events of 9-11 which shocked the world but the people of America much more.

Lest We Forget.

[Briggsy]

Relevance to Thailand????? This is a forum about Thailand!!!!

Take it elsewhere.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Briggsy

[GuestHouse]

Relevance to Thailand????? This is a forum about Thailand!!!!

Take it elsewhere.

It gets relevant when we come to the bit about which side the Thais decided to fight on.

[chiangmaikelly]

It was a great day for FDR and company, not so for the rest of the world.

Winston Churchill's quote upon being informed of Peal Harbor, "To have the United States at our side was to me the greatest joy. Now at this very moment I knew the United States was in the war, up to the neck and in to the death. So we had won after all!...Hitler's fate was sealed. Mussolini's fate was sealed. As for the Japanese, they would be ground to powder."

Or, "Now at this very moment I knew that the United States was in the war, up to the neck and in to the death. So we had won after all! ... How long the war would last or in what fashion it would end no man could tell, nor did I at this moment care ... We should not be wiped out. Our history would not come to an end ... Hitler's fate was sealed. Mussolini's fate was sealed. As for the Japanese, they would be ground to a powder. All the rest was merely the proper application of overwhelming force.”

Edited December 7, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[Yahooka]

The americans cant resist a conflict

Had the Americans resisted being drawn into the war in Europe, then Europe would be much different today,we (Europeans) owe them a debt of thanks,we can never repay!

Than we would had the European Union 50 years earlier and the Nazi Regime might have fallen way faster than the Communists. And the Americans didn't start the war with Germany to free us, they did it for their own selfish reasons. If we need to thank someone than the we must thank the Soviets who had terrible loses and without them Germany would have stayed longer and would have been nuked by the Americans with some million more dead.

But what has Pear Harbor to do with Thailand?

What a load of drivel !! Without thousands of Allied sailors and navy personel giving their lives when shipping supplies to the Soviet Union,it wouldn`t be anyone left there to push the Germans out at the end of the war !!!!!

Edited December 7, 2012 by Yahooka

[inthepink]

Irrespective of one's views on the role that the USA played in World War II, the OP only asked that anybody who was affected by the events at Pearl Harbor join him in remembering it and the people who lost their lives on that day. Hardly the place to start arguing about who should have done what and when and what would have happened if they hadn't. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with Thailand but if the moderators don't care, why should anyone else?

Most importantly, the people that died at Pearl Harbor did not decide US military policy, they were just doing their job.

Edited December 7, 2012 by inthepink

[manly100]

Yes RIP, young men.

I see the point of other posters, USA's strategy would have been to let Europe tear itself to pieces again and again and again, keeping Europe fragmented was the strategy then and remains so today. However the USA would never let any war, anywhere result in a single country becoming more powerful due to taking over another. It also does all it can to prevent any country gaining an influence over another. When you apply this strategy historically its action makes more sense. As for Germany, it has always been dissatisfied with its status; it just couldn't stand seeing other western European powers doing so well. In WW1 the US had to intervene as a German victory and defragmented Europe was against its strategy. In WW2 it was the same again, but it had its nukes then and if it did not put men on the ground it would have needed to use them and the result would have turned Germany into a lot of very large glass craters. That would be fine from England and France’s point of view but would have made them too powerful form the US point of view. At the same time this strategy calls for the increasing of US influence anywhere it can. Thus, the Lend Lease program. Little known now but in 41 just prior to the US getting involved in the European war it made a deal with the nations getting beaten by Germany to supply them with materials to help them continue fighting the Germans. In return these nations, mainly the British, agreed to lease their naval bases to the US. The US gained naval power from this deal which it holds to this day and remains the world’s sole naval super power. Enter the Japanese, having totally underestimated US industrial power they formed a strategy to take by force just as much of the world around it as it could. It had to; Japan being resource poor ordered its forces to take over the world starting with its neighbors, the US reacted by making the decision to halt oil exports to Japan. Japan nee-jerked and made the fatal mistake of thinking if it took out the US naval base at Hawaii it would have overall control of the pacific region. And how wrong it was. The US stepped on Japans throat, almost as an afterthought to the war in Europe. I’ve said all this to make the point that those young men died the day in Hawaii because Germany and Japan had made a pact to share the world between them. They died because of Germany’s and Japan’s greed, avarice, ignorance and utter contempt of its neighbors. They forgot the simplest of bar room logic; If You’re Going To Knock A Man Down, Do In Such A Way So As He Doesn’t Get Back Up.

[Beetlejuice]

Relevance to Thailand????? This is a forum about Thailand!!!!

Take it elsewhere.

NO!

Edited December 7, 2012 by Beetlejuice

[Rob8891]

Relevance to Thailand????? This is a forum about Thailand!!!!

Take it elsewhere.

I would have thought the relevance was pretty obvious....The Japanese didn't treat the Thais much better than any people they conquered (OK...We all know that Thailand was not "occupied" per se.)Had the Allies not won the war, what do you think would have befallen Thailand?

Not relevant to Thailand?? Duh!

[tartempion]

It is sad to know humans are always in war somewhere, or should I say everywhere?

Noticed my avatar?

Edited December 7, 2012 by tartempion

[Mossfinn]

Also considering that at the time it was debatable as to what side the Americas would have fought with.

Debatable? On whose side might they attach? Lend Lease was already in progress, many months into the year prior to their declaration of war.

Prior to that they were in an economic war with Japan over expansion for natural resources, so who would they ally themselves with?

[Mossfinn]

It's sad to see any country's flag being burnt.... This is not the thread to put shit on the yanks.....

[Mossfinn]

And the Americans didn't start the war with Germany to free us, they did it for their own selfish reasons.

Although I will not disagree that they had their own reasons for joining the conflict, selfish would not be one of them, they themselves gave precedent to the war in Europe than to unleashing all their power on revenge in the Pacific.

[Mossfinn]

Relevance to Thailand????? This is a forum about Thailand!!!!

Take it elsewhere.

On occasion, certain topics that on the face of it appear to lack clear relevance to Thailand are allowed to stand. Pearl Harbour although not directly linked to Thailand was prosecuted by the Japanese and on a very close date the Japanes began to invade, occupy by agreement Thailand.

So relevance by date if nothing else, oh and all being part of a World war might be a contributing detail, all down to the point of view of the individual.

[Mossfinn]

Relevance to Thailand????? This is a forum about Thailand!!!!

Take it elsewhere.

It gets relevant when we come to the bit about which side the Thais decided to fight on.

And which side did they fight on? Just like the French and Dutch they had their resistance fighters.

[webfact]

Relevance to Thailand????? This is a forum about Thailand!!!!

Take it elsewhere.

no, it runs here

/Admin

[wayned]

Here's some relavance:

"In the immediate aftermath of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japanese forces invaded Thailand's territory on the morning of December 8, 1941. Only hours after the invasion, the then prime minister Field Marshal Phibunsongkhram, ordered the cessation of resistance against the Japanese. On December 21, 1941, a military alliance with Japan was signed and Thailand declared war on Britain and the United States. The Thai ambassador to the United States, Mom Rajawongse Seni Pramoj did not deliver his copy of the declaration of war, so although the British reciprocated by declaring war on Thailand and consequently considered it a hostile country, the United States did not.

On May 10, 1942, the Thai Phayap Army entered Burma's Shan State, at one time in the past the area had been part of the Ayutthaya Kingdom. The boundary between the Japanese and Thai operations was generally the Salween. However, the area south of the Shan States known as Karenni States, the homeland of the Karens, was specifically retained under Japanese control. Three Thai infantry and one cavalry division, spearheaded by armoured reconnaissance groups and supported by the air force engaged the retreating Chinese 93rd Division. Kengtung, the main objective, was captured on May 27. Renewed offensives in June and November evicted the Chinese into Yunnan.The area containing the Shan States and Kengtung was annexed by Thailand in 1942. After the war, in 1946, the areas were ceded back to Burma.

The Free Thai Movement ("Seri Thai") was established during these first few months, parallel Free Thai organisations were also established in the United Kingdom and inside Thailand. Queen Ramphaiphanni was the nominal head of the British-based organisation, and Pridi Phanomyong, the regent, headed its largest contingent, which was operating within the country. Aided by elements of the military, secret airfields and training camps were established while OSS and Force 136 agents fluidly slipped in and out of the country.

As the war dragged on, the Thai population came to resent the Japanese presence. In June 1944, Phibun was overthrown in a coup d'état. The new civilian government under Khuang Aphaiwong attempted to aid the resistance while at the same time maintaining cordial relations with the Japanese. After the war, U.S. influence prevented Thailand from being treated as an Axis country, but the British demanded three million tons of rice as reparations and the return of areas annexed from the colony of Malaya during the war. Thailand also returned the portions of British Burma and French Indochina that had been annexed. Phibun and a number of his associates were put on trial on charges of having committed war crimes and of collaborating with the Axis powers. However, the charges were dropped due to intense public pressure. Public opinion was favourable to Phibun, since he was thought to have done his best to protect Thai interests."

Edited December 7, 2012 by wayned

[JusMe]

Here's some relavance:

"In the immediate aftermath of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japanese forces invaded Thailand's territory on the morning of December 8, 1941. .......

Consider the source of all this - and question WikiPedia always. Anything about Thailand has been edited so hagiographically that one absolutely MUST search out other sources.