Motogp Moto 3

[mania]

I have not watched the GP series in a few years & am just restarting this year.

I enjoyed Qatar very much & look forward to the season.

One thing that really caught my attention was the Moto 3 class.

Actually the Moto 2 also but the Moto 3 was kind of a shocker.

Back when they switched from 2 strokes to 4 strokes & the classes went

from 125cc to 250 single cylinder for Moto 3 I thought it would be kind

of boring. But was I wrong.

Very close racing with lots of action & at a pace I did not think was possible

on a 250cc single cylinder engine.

Check out the speeds...

http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/2013/QAT/Moto3/RAC/AverageSpeed.pdf?v1_604cc833

The motogp.com site has a cool results section for all 3 classes & you

can click on practice,race,qualifying etc & they have some interesting info for each

http://www.motogp.com/en/Results+Statistics

Anyway I was pleasantly surprised by this class.

Would like to read more about the technology behind these bikes.

Have found some info on the KTM

Anyone else watching this class or have good tech websites to read?

[Richard-BKK]

Yes, I follow the Moto3 closely. I'm also impressed with the performance of the bikes, KTM is currently superior in power, Honda is getting close, and I'm very impressed with the performance of first time race-team from Mahindra (one of the larger Indian motorcycle manufacturers) which was only 5.9 km/h slower than the fastest rider at top speed...

[mania]

Yes, I follow the Moto3 closely. I'm also impressed with the performance of the bikes, KTM is currently superior in power, Honda is getting close, and I'm very impressed with the performance of first time race-team from Mahindra (one of the larger Indian motorcycle manufacturers) which was only 5.9 km/h slower than the fastest rider at top speed...

Yes I am very impressed with KTM's engine also.

really amazing what they & Honda are pulling out of a 250 single.

http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/KTMS-ALLNEW-250cc-RACE-ENGINE-IT-SHARES-NOTHING-WI-8330.aspx

The bikes themselves are impressive too.

This is a year old already but was interesting to look at too.

Beautiful pics + basic specs

http://blog.derestricted.com/racing/ktm-moto3-bike-derestricted-photos/

Edited April 11, 2013 by mania

[loserlazer]

ktm is 84 kgs with 55 hp engine, amazing how they generate 55 hp from a 250 cc single cylinder engine

i am sure honda is close to these numbers as well.

thanks for the info mania.

[Richard-BKK]

The 55 HP for the KTM Moto3 engine was for 2012, the engine has had a few tweaks for 2013 so who knows what the horsepower count now is...

The KTM engine and the Honda engine are both complete different engines, while they both are 250cc single-cylinder Moto3 specific engines. The KTM produce's more 'peak' power at high rpm, while the Honda Moto3 engine is more designed to provide power throughout the powerband.

Which engine is better? We will see at the end of the 2013 Moto3 season... at Losail International Circuit in Qatar the KTM engine seemed superior, but a championship is not won by one race..

[mania]

The 55 HP for the KTM Moto3 engine was for 2012, the engine has had a few tweaks for 2013 so who knows what the horsepower count now is...

The KTM engine and the Honda engine are both complete different engines, while they both are 250cc single-cylinder Moto3 specific engines. The KTM produce's more 'peak' power at high rpm, while the Honda Moto3 engine is more designed to provide power throughout the powerband.

Which engine is better? We will see at the end of the 2013 Moto3 season... at Losail International Circuit in Qatar the KTM engine seemed superior, but a championship is not won by one race..

Yes true that Honda & KTM follow different paths

The Honda NSF250R is a forward intake & rear exhaust setup

The (old ? ) Honda was a bore & stroke of 78x52.2

I had read 47hp

Don't know if this year is the same

The KTM is standard forward exhaust & rearward intake.

bore & stroke = 81x48.5

I think I have read the bore limit for Moto 3 is 81

so they are at the limit bore wise

The KTM is using twin exhausts . One for each titanium exhaust valve

You can see it in the previous link I posted for the KTM engine

even though it is a single cylinder. Interesting & I mentioned it in the Qatar

thread. Pokerkid mentioned it was not a new designs as the older Honda XR600's did the same.

But is is the first time I actually noticed it as I was not into the XR series of bikes.

LL I have not seen anything yet on the 2013 Honda's but here is an older video of their last model.

Edited April 11, 2013 by mania

[mania]

Yes, I follow the Moto3 closely. I'm also impressed with the performance of the bikes, KTM is currently superior in power, Honda is getting close, and I'm very impressed with the performance of first time race-team from Mahindra (one of the larger Indian motorcycle manufacturers) which was only 5.9 km/h slower than the fastest rider at top speed...

So Richard can you tell me why does Moto 3 only have KTM & Honda engines?

Also the Indian Mahindra as you said.

But is it just not something the other manufacturers are interested in?

Actually all classes in Motogp in general has kind of lost a few manufacturers for what ever reasons.

Whats the problem? Is it $$$ ? Or regulations?

Edit: Looks like Yamaha will lease engines for 2014 too

http://motomatters.com/news/2013/04/10/new_motogp_rules_private_motogp_testing_.html#comments

Edited April 11, 2013 by mania

[Richard-BKK]

Money and motivation is the main reason, most motorcycle manufacturers have no need to promote a 250cc single-cylinder sportsbike, what is basically the biggest motivator for a manufacturer. Why race in a prototype class if you not have the desire to manufacture and product...

KTM with its Indian partner Baja Auto have several motorcycles that will probably see the light this year, Honda has the CBR250R which they like to promote by racing in the Moto3. Mahindra will also introduce this year a street-legal 250cc sportsbike... And while all this 250cc street-legal sportsbikes have nothing in common with a Moto3 bike, manufacturers find it very useful and successful to promote street-legal 250cc motorcycle by racing in a 250cc motorcycle class like the Moto3.

Look at Honda, they created a complete new race class just to promote the Honda CBR500R...

If we follow this trend of manufacturers promoting 250cc street-legal motorcycles by racing in the Moto3 I would not be surprised to see Eric Buell/Hero Corp. and BMW/TVS entering the competition next year...

By the way for 2014 season, Suzuki will be back in the MotoGP

[mania]

Sorry I miss read that

I think Yamaha is doing leases on Motogp not Moto 3

Richard

Yes basically what I thought about why some major manufacturers were

not there in Moto 3

Also have to wonder why they limit the single cylinder which I guess

keeps Kawasaki out. I guess if Yamaha comes thu with their 250 maybe another entry?

Yes I read about Suzuki returning to GP

Edited April 11, 2013 by mania

[Richard-BKK]

Sorry I miss read that

I think Yamaha is doing leases on Motogp not Moto 3

Richard

Yes basically what I thought about why some major manufacturers were

not there in Moto 3

Also have to wonder why they limit the single cylinder which I guess

keeps Kawasaki out. I guess if Yamaha comes thu with their 250 maybe another entry?

Yes I read about Suzuki returning to GP

The problem with Yamaha is that they not have a single-cylinder 250cc machine they would like to promote by racing in the Moto3. The same applies for Suzuki and Kawasaki both have no single-cylinder 250cc sportsbike so spending huge amounts of money on prototype racing would be useless...

Some say, because Yamaha has no interest in Moto3 is a sign that the so much talked about YZF-R250 is a twin-cylinder configuration... I think that the Yamaha YZF-R250 will not be available before 2014 so they still can enter that season if they would like....

Edited April 11, 2013 by Richard-BKK

[mania]

The problem with Yamaha is that they not have a single-cylinder 250cc machine they would like to promote by racing in the Moto3. The same applies for Suzuki and Kawasaki both have no single-cylinder 250cc sportsbike so spending huge amounts of money on prototype racing would be useless...

Some say, because Yamaha has no interest in Moto3 is a sign that the so much talked about YZF-R250 is a twin-cylinder configuration... I think that the Yamaha YZF-R250 will not be available before 2014 so they still can enter that season if they would like....

Yes & that rule? About not using their MX ( Or WR in Yamaha's case )engines leaves them out for now.

So goes back to making me wonder why they limit the class to single cylinder 250's

I know they will claim affordability but it does not make a lot of sense in this class.

[loserlazer]

mania, the meaning of these races are not only for wining or losing but to transfer reasonable technologies invented, researched and developed for motogp to mass production bikes and as you know teh trend is now for low displacement bikes like 250cc is a single cylinder like you can see from KTM and Honda bikes.

So, racing with a twin cylinder does not benefit any maker.

[mania]

mania, the meaning of these races are not only for wining or losing but to transfer reasonable technologies invented, researched and developed for motogp to mass production bikes and as you know teh trend is now for low displacement bikes like 250cc is a single cylinder like you can see from KTM and Honda bikes.

So, racing with a twin cylinder does not benefit any maker.

Well I am not so sure as Kawasaki is a twin 250 & perhaps the new Yamaha will be?

That aside they have always made room in the past even when Ducati went racing

with their twins & were allowed more displacement to even out the 4cyl advantages.

But also Moto 3 was originally 125cc 2 strokes & Moto 2 was the 250 class

But they had a much deeper field as manufacturers like Aprilia, Yamaha,Suzuki etc were present

albeit in 2 strokes

Also as always I have thought of Superbike as a more race/street related representative & GP

a full blown racers game

Actually now with the surge in smaller bikes SuperBike might be a place for a supersport new class

under the 400-600 4cyl/600-750 2cyl class ?

I like it better when racing is not a monopoly of 2 manufacturers

Edited April 11, 2013 by mania

[Richard-BKK]

The thing is Moto3 is prototype racing, which is an excellent test bed for any Research & Development department, using a motocross engine would not make sense even if it was allowed... the characteristics of a 250cc motocross engine will make it unsuitable for Moto3 racing anyway. Moto3 rules say that rebuilding an engine is equal to a new engine. That makes the average motocross engine unsuitable as most professional motocross teams rebuild (or need to rebuild) the engine after it has been raced.

Why only 250cc single-cylinder engines, 250cc single-cylinder offers much more space for improvements, while a twin-cylinder 250cc (basically 2x 125cc) is at the end of its journey of “affordable” performance possibilities. I would not be surprised if in few years a single-cylinder 250cc will out perform a twin-cylinder sportsbike... (not necessary in pure power “horsepower” performance, but in aspects like fuel efficiency, emission control, and durability)

[Richard-BKK]

mania, the meaning of these races are not only for wining or losing but to transfer reasonable technologies invented, researched and developed for motogp to mass production bikes and as you know teh trend is now for low displacement bikes like 250cc is a single cylinder like you can see from KTM and Honda bikes.

So, racing with a twin cylinder does not benefit any maker.

Well I am not so sure as Kawasaki is a twin 250 & perhaps the new Yamaha will be?

That aside they have always made room in the past even when Ducati went racing

with their twins & were allowed more displacement to even out the 4cyl advantages.

But also Moto 3 was originally 125cc 2 strokes & Moto 2 was the 250 class

But they had a much deeper field as manufacturers like Aprilia, Yamaha,Suzuki etc were present

albeit in 2 strokes

Also as always I have thought of Superbike as a more race/street related representative & GP

a full blown racers game

Actually now with the surge in smaller bikes SuperBike might be a place for a supersport new class

under the 400-600 4cyl/600-750 2cyl class ?

I like it better when racing is not a monopoly of 2 manufacturers

Its three manufacturers, KTM, Honda and Mahindra

[Richard-BKK]

To say it simple racing is advertising, therefore if you not have a product to sale why advertise.

You will not see Samsung, or any multinational, doing an advertising campaign which costs millions for a product they not make...

[Richard-BKK]

Ducati races in the MotoGP with a V4 engine, they are allowed to use more displacement in the World Superbike championship. The Superbike championship is not prototype racing and the rules are also much different.... while the MotoGP concentrate on what is not mass-produced, the Superbike championship team need to start with a production motorcycle which is street legal and available at the dealership and can modify it will parts public available...

[mania]

while the MotoGP concentrate on what is not mass-produced, the Superbike championship team need to start with a production motorcycle which is street legal and available at the dealership and can modify it will parts public available...

Agreed

Consumers are not are buying GP bikes or anything close to it really even from the Moto3 class

So why not open that 250 class to more manufacturers with what they have 250 wise. If it meets

the rules albeit not the single cyl limit

Superbike? Yes a good place for a production 250 class it seems.

But in any case I do enjoy watching it & am very impressed by what they are

squeezing out of them.

PS: Thanks for bringing up Mahindra

They have a great facebook page

Edited April 11, 2013 by mania

[Richard-BKK]

To start an open class 250cc racing you need lots of money from independent sponsors. If you not have lots of independent money as promoter to keep the championship going, the race basically dies when one of the manufacturers sees disappointing results, like what happened in India.

For Honda it was an expected challenge to race against the Kawasaki Ninja 250R, but what Honda didn't realized that it also opened the door for everybody on Indian brands to enter the competition... Losing a race to a twin-cylinder 250cc from Kawasaki is not something to be shamed about, but if a privateer racer on his budget-build Indian single-cylinder 220cc motorcycle beats you … things are much more difficult to explain...

So now in India they have the Honda CBR250R one make race... Honda happy everybody happy

[KMA]

Hi Richard- I sent you a PM message. I know I rarely look at mine so just a heads up that I sent you one and have some questions for you regarding one of your bikes. If you have the time would be great to hear back from you. Thanks, KMA

[User3]

>So now in India they have the Honda CBR250R one make race... Honda happy everybody happy

Hi, sorry to put this in what is likely the wrong forum.. but..

Has anyone seen/heard of the facility that they are building in Chonburi. It looks like some sort of Tri-Oval thing, with what looks like a dirt track in the middle.

Google Earth: 13.03.54.75 N and 101.13.29.29 E

Google Imagry was Dec. 24th 2012 and show a lot of dump trucks and what may be scrapers working.

The outside Oval is huge and the buildings look like being very complete.

The 'Oval' is about 4km in length.

Oh, I see. It's adjacent to ESIB so is probably a car company test track.

Never mind.

Well, We can hope can't we??

Someone might build something some day.

[denkiblue555]

I know it is 450cc (and not M3), but I like where this is going - F450.

Mx bikes with fairings and different suspension setups.