Football, Meat Pies, Kangaroos and ...

[wilcopops]

Actually you have misinterpreted my comments - I'm talking about the RESULTS opt lack of R&D. The management have failed to embrace this over the last few decades and the efforts to sub-manufacture smaller models are really a joke.

The Japanese spend MASSIVE amounts on R&D and although the results may be bland cars, the success of their companies around the world is testament to this. (when did Holden ever seriously even think of manufacturing abroad (till now!)?

Protectionism works on developing industries in emerging economies but after that in order to grow free trade has to be embraced - Holden were already in a poor position when tariffs were reduced on imports to Oz. But you have to admit that the products that might have sold in countries like Thailand and ASEAN are already being made there and the big saloons and utes just couldn't sell as anything more than a curiosity.

The Rodeo has always been a Japanese ute and apart from the big home grown the products that really met market needs were ALL Japanese designed - These products are Body-bolt-on- chassis designs and best suited to manufacture in low labour cost countries - deffo not Oz!. So the only way they could get built was with government aid.

- at the end of the day you haver to produce a product that will sell - the cutover has the final word - you can distort the market with government subsidies but this can only have a limited life span. Oz needs goods from abroad and has other things to sell, so it needs free-ish trade with its neighbours - the Aussie people (and retailers) benefit from this.

"Duty free in the end lets the buying public decide what they want - and it wasn't a Holden.

I was only really responding to your statement about affordability - Aussies are spending 35K+ on cars, just not 6 cylinder Aussie made ones anymore

Anyways, I think we basically agree. I still don't understand this though:

I guess there are still some holes in my English

It's not how much you spend so much as what you get for your money.

Uh huh, which at 35k+ has been an SUV for the best part of a decade in Oz

and how many "aussie" SUVs do you see outside Oz?

point being the industry never even approached the volume of production required to make a sustainable industry - even "successful" industries worldwide get subsidies, but a small industry just can't hack it.

Iff you check out the component manufacturers in Thailand, you'll find they are employing more people in one factory just making parts than all of the Holden plants put together.

Edited December 12, 2013 by wilcopops

[canman]

"as unions warned Holden's decision would cost 50,000 jobs in the auto sector."

Classic statement from the very <deleted> who killed Australia's auto industry.

[wilcopops]

"as unions warned Holden's decision would cost 50,000 jobs in the auto sector."

Classic statement from the very wanke_rs who killed Australia's auto industry.

the people who "killed" the Australian auto industry are those who run/ran it. They are the ones who for the past 70 years have been in charge, they made the decisions on what to make, and did or didn't do the market research, didn't have the vision to expand beyond Australian borders, and thought that Bathurst was the be-all and end-all of motor racing.

[IMHO]

"as unions warned Holden's decision would cost 50,000 jobs in the auto sector."

Classic statement from the very wanke_rs who killed Australia's auto industry.

the people who "killed" the Australian auto industry are those who run/ran it. They are the ones who for the past 70 years have been in charge, they made the decisions on what to make, and did or didn't do the market research, didn't have the vision to expand beyond Australian borders, and thought that Bathurst was the be-all and end-all of motor racing.

OK, so the Americans killed it - can't really apportion blame anyone they put in charge of their Australian outposts - they were either operating in an unsupervised bubble, or acting on company orders

Edited December 12, 2013 by IMHO

[wilcopops]

"as unions warned Holden's decision would cost 50,000 jobs in the auto sector."

Classic statement from the very wanke_rs who killed Australia's auto industry.

the people who "killed" the Australian auto industry are those who run/ran it. They are the ones who for the past 70 years have been in charge, they made the decisions on what to make, and did or didn't do the market research, didn't have the vision to expand beyond Australian borders, and thought that Bathurst was the be-all and end-all of motor racing.

Yep, the Americans killed it - can't really apportion blame anyone they put in charge of their Australian outposts - they were either operating in an unsupervised bubble, or acting on company orders

You seem to be shopping around for "some one else to blame" a scapegoat?

Bear in mind that about the same time that Holden started up, Honda was building Austins under licence and were getting started after a war .....they managed to get going with a little help from the US too .....

in the mean time Holden management were telling us how they wren't puppets of GM but a "genuine" Aussie car maker......now you doubt this? In which case what's the problem?

Edited December 12, 2013 by wilcopops

[IMHO]

"as unions warned Holden's decision would cost 50,000 jobs in the auto sector."

Classic statement from the very wanke_rs who killed Australia's auto industry.

the people who "killed" the Australian auto industry are those who run/ran it. They are the ones who for the past 70 years have been in charge, they made the decisions on what to make, and did or didn't do the market research, didn't have the vision to expand beyond Australian borders, and thought that Bathurst was the be-all and end-all of motor racing.

Yep, the Americans killed it - can't really apportion blame anyone they put in charge of their Australian outposts - they were either operating in an unsupervised bubble, or acting on company orders

You seem to be shopping around for "some one else to blame" a scapegoat?

Bear in mind that about the same time that Holden started up, Honda was building Austins under licence and were getting started after a war .....they managed to get going with a little help from thruS .....

in the mean time Holden management were telling us how they wren't puppets of GM but a "genuine" Aussie car maker......now you doubt this? In which case what's the problem?

Nar, you're just being argumentative with me, so I'm revving you up in return

[wilcopops]

the people who "killed" the Australian auto industry are those who run/ran it. They are the ones who for the past 70 years have been in charge, they made the decisions on what to make, and did or didn't do the market research, didn't have the vision to expand beyond Australian borders, and thought that Bathurst was the be-all and end-all of motor racing.

Yep, the Americans killed it - can't really apportion blame anyone they put in charge of their Australian outposts - they were either operating in an unsupervised bubble, or acting on company orders

You seem to be shopping around for "some one else to blame" a scapegoat?

Bear in mind that about the same time that Holden started up, Honda was building Austins under licence and were getting started after a war .....they managed to get going with a little help from thruS .....

in the mean time Holden management were telling us how they wren't puppets of GM but a "genuine" Aussie car maker......now you doubt this? In which case what's the problem?

Nar, you're just being argumentative with me, so I'm revving you up in return

The main difference was that the Japanese industry was determined to sell to the world, whereas Holdens ambition was to sell a Ute to a farmer in Back O' Burke.

[IMHO]

The main difference was that the Japanese industry was determined to sell to the world, whereas Holdens ambition was to sell a Ute to a farmer in Back O' Burke.

hehe

We hire people in Thailand, Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore and Australia. Out of them, it's the Malays and the Aussies whose ambition seems to be to do the minimum work for maximum pay, so it all stands to reason

[Chao Lao Beach]

So, which one rates better?

"Isuzu split with acrimony: when GM informed them the deal for D-Max to be Holden Rodeos was gone after 2011, in a fit of petulance Isuzu who owned the rights to the name denied it to Holden. Hence what was the Rodeo is now the Colorado since about 2010. GM owned the Thai factory and plant. The new Isuzu D-Max shares cab panels and chassis rails with the new Colorado, but amost nothing else - engines, trans, front and rear sheetmetal, underpinnings, equipment. They're so different they're even rated differently by ANCAP."

[Spoonman]

So, which one rates better?

"Isuzu split with acrimony: when GM informed them the deal for D-Max to be Holden Rodeos was gone after 2011, in a fit of petulance Isuzu who owned the rights to the name denied it to Holden. Hence what was the Rodeo is now the Colorado since about 2010. GM owned the Thai factory and plant. The new Isuzu D-Max shares cab panels and chassis rails with the new Colorado, but amost nothing else - engines, trans, front and rear sheetmetal, underpinnings, equipment. They're so different they're even rated differently by ANCAP."

The Colorado.

http://www.ancap.com.au/mediarelease?id=158

[Jitar]

The main difference was that the Japanese industry was determined to sell to the world, whereas Holdens ambition was to sell a Ute to a farmer in Back O' Burke.

hehe

We hire people in Thailand, Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore and Australia. Out of them, it's the Malays and the Aussies whose ambition seems to be to do the minimum work for maximum pay, so it all stands to reason

Australians and Malays may be good at minimum work for max pay but there's plenty of examples in LOS demonstrating they don't have a monopoly on it.

This thread reminds me of some of the media coverage of Holden and Ford's demise. I wonder if there is a prosperous car industry anywhere in the world that does not have import protection and / or subsidies ?

Edited December 12, 2013 by Jitar

[IMHO]

The main difference was that the Japanese industry was determined to sell to the world, whereas Holdens ambition was to sell a Ute to a farmer in Back O' Burke.

hehe

We hire people in Thailand, Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore and Australia. Out of them, it's the Malays and the Aussies whose ambition seems to be to do the minimum work for maximum pay, so it all stands to reason

Australians and Malays may be good at minimum work for max pay but there's plenty of examples in LOS demonstrating they don't have a monopoly on it.

This thread reminds me of some of the media coverage of Holden and Ford's demise. I wonder if there is a prosperous car industry anywhere in the world that does not have import protection and / or subsidies ?

Bah, that was just to rev up wilcopops some more All staff are lazy

Good point in your second paragraph though, I don't specialise in all markets, but perhaps Spain is one example.

[Ace of Pop]

Well Known Fact. Unions saved the British Car Industry . Union Blokes should be branded as Traitors. And some Bosses.

[OZEMADE]

Toyota Management Australia are trying to negotiate with it's workers, a pay decrease as they also are manufacturing at a loss.

The Australian Manufacturers Workers Union (AMWU) have told the Toyota employees to stand their ground and not take a pay decrease.

I can see this coming to a disasterous end for Toyota and it's workers in the not too distant future and the workers will have no one to thank for the loss of their jobs, except the AMWU.

It has been in the media already that Toyota will more than likley follow Holden, so why would some idiot in the AMWU put pressure on Toyota.

I don't know if the media were joking or not, but they said that the new car that has been ordered for the Prime Minister is a BMW.

Edited December 12, 2013 by OZEMADE

[IMHO]

Toyota Management Australia are trying to negotiate with it's workers, a pay decrease as they also are manufacturing at a loss.

The Australian Manufacturers Workers Union (AMWU) have told the Toyota employees to stand their ground and not take a pay decrease.

I can see this coming to a disasterous end for Toyota and it's workers in the not too distant future and the workers will have no one to thank for the loss of their jobs, except the AMWU.

It has been in the media already that Toyota will more than likley follow Holden, so why would some idiot in the AMWU put pressure on Toyota.

I don't know if the media were joking or not, but they said that the new car that has been ordered for the Prime Minister is a BMW.

The comments coming from Toyota Australia execs today certainly are indicating that it's likely they will stop manufacturing now too.

[Showbags]

Isuzu has been full stream ahead in Oz for a couple of years now, I am sue all part of the plan. The ones sent to oz have different doors and latches for side impact regulations, different ABS systems as well as the ones sold in Thailand are illegal in oz, not enough sensors. And they even have heaters !!!!

Some of the best pies I have had have been in Thailand. (Hard to beat a Yattla though)

Fur pie does not count.

Four n Twenty covered in dead horse...mmmmmmm

Well we can all thank the fuking union assh0les for killing another Aussie icon.

Unions ultimately cause the demise of most things with their greedy lazy work ethic and any excuse for a bludge or a pay rise...often together.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Showbags

[Chao Lao Beach]

On the media, they keep saying the main reason is the strong AUD, Well, considering (apparently) many of these units will now be made in Thailand, is it just me who is feeling the strong baht?

Seems real investigated journalist also left the country not to question this and bring up the other issues....

[wilcopops]

On the media, they keep saying the main reason is the strong AUD, Well, considering (apparently) many of these units will now be made in Thailand, is it just me who is feeling the strong baht?

Seems real investigated journalist also left the country not to question this and bring up the other issues....

Look t the value of the AU dollar over the past decade against the main currencies and the baht pales into insignificance in comparison.

Also you have the benefit in Thailand of cheaper labour and real estate.

[Jasun]

Toyota has just lost its case against the AMWU meaning it won't be allowed to renegotiate working conditions with employees. If ever they needed an excuse...

[wilcopops]

Toyota want out - so what do they do? Ask for something they know they won't get....they couldn't lose - it was win-win for them, either they got a reduction in wages or an excuse to move out. The Unions were their putzes!

[Showbags]

Toyota want out - so what do they do? Ask for something they know they won't get....they couldn't lose - it was win-win for them, either they got a reduction in wages or an excuse to move out. The Unions were their putzes!

Are putzes perhaps you meant to write.

Shows how dumb union guys are.

[OZEMADE]

Both made in Thailand. Here are the 2 OZ sites for the 2014 Holden and the Isuzu. Hard to pick between the D-Max and the Holden Colorado UTE. Also hard to pick the difference between the Holden Colorado 7 and the Isuzu MU-X

http://www.holden.com.au/cars/colorado

http://www.isuzuute.com.au/

[Spoonman]

Both made in Thailand. Here are the 2 OZ sites for the 2014 Holden and the Isuzu. Hard to pick between the D-Max and the Holden Colorado UTE. Also hard to pick the difference between the Holden Colorado 7 and the Isuzu MU-X

http://www.holden.com.au/cars/colorado

http://www.isuzuute.com.au/

They look similar because the Isuzu's use the Colorado body panels for the core part of the cabin.

[MK1]

The reason they're leaving is because there's not enough people buying them. Now the same people who didn't support this local manufacturer are screaming about how terrible it is they're leaving. Sad for the employees, off to QLD and WA to dig dirt I guess.

WHY aren't they buying them? It's all very well saying "support your local businesses, but this is a management thing they need to make something the locals want at a price they can afford - Because although it's nice to think you need a big muscular car, the practicalities are quite different. The large Holdens simply don't have enough people who actually can afford to buy them (part from government departments) - so the only thing they could sell are imported small car designs.

It's less about consumer affordability than it is Holden/Ford's financial incapacity to invest in R&D, and competitively manufacture new models in more desirable segments. Outside of the Holden Snooze and Toyota's Camry, their whole industry remains pegged to 6 and 8 cylinder D segment cars that lost their popularity as fast as netbook computers did when the iPad was released. And they couldn't revive enough interest with turbo 4 engines and LPG systems that came too little, too late.

FTA's like the one with Thailand didn't help them much either - prior to that only a handful of pickups were exported to Oz - since TAFTA the Oz market is flooded with practically everything that's made here, all duty free. I expect the recent FTA between Aust and South Korea was final nail in Holden's coffin, seeing as their volume sellers are all rebadged Daewoos anyway

What a total sham the TAFTA (Thailand-Australia Free Trade Agreement) has been for the Australian Car manufacturing industry. As a result, according to ABC 7.30 report 12/12/2013, to date approximately over 200,000 cars have been exported to Australia from Thailand and only 100 manufactured Australia cars have been exported back to Thailand since. Someone has been definitely asleep at the wheel on this one because now, more than likely, the Red drovers dog has been riding around in the back of a pick-up manufactured in THAILAND, inadvertently, at Australian tax payer’s expense.

R.I.P… Australian Car manufacturing industry.

Edited December 12, 2013 by MK1

[Chao Lao Beach]

I dislike Baranby Joice, but at least he went out on a limb to use Thailand / Aust free trade agreement as one to avoid doing again, in relation to a question about the China one.

He basically accused the Thais of being scamers by dodging up the books and engine CC sizes, it was on a Q&A show on Australia Network. .

[GrantSmith]

I dislike Baranby Joice, but at least he went out on a limb to use Thailand / Aust free trade agreement as one to avoid doing again, in relation to a question about the China one.

He basically accused the Thais of being scamers by dodging up the books and engine CC sizes, it was on a Q&A show on Australia Network. .

The TAFTA is a 2 way street and professionally (and personally) I'm thankful for it. My dealings that relate to the TAFTA are not related to the automotive industry so potentially off tangent.

Thankfully, I guess, there's not a huge amount of Thai product flowing in the opposite direction (in the industry I'm involved in) that would upset the likes of the Hon. Member for New England.

There's a lot to like about the TAFTA, especially for us expats here in Thailand.

Furthermore, you can't blame the TAFTA for the lack of vehicle exports into Thailand. That blame lays fair and square with the Thai Government and their over zealous excise tax.

Edited December 12, 2013 by GrantSmith

[IMHO]

Furthermore, you can't blame the TAFTA for the lack of vehicle exports into Thailand. That blame lays fair and square with the Thai Government and their over zealous excise tax.

In relation to the car industry and the TAFTA deal, someone in Australia has to put their hand up and say "I was the knucklehead that knew nothing about where the automotive industry was headed, and believed so strongly that the Commodore and Falcon would never die, that I agreed to a clause limiting our duty-free export of cars to ones with engines > 3,000cc, and accepted a 6% import duty on smaller engined cars that we gave them 0% on"....

There wasn't too many people in the industry at the time that didn't shake their heads at that one (people outside of Australia and USA that is).

Edited December 12, 2013 by IMHO

[meatboy]

Jeeez... i only looked because of th Meat Pies, recon if Chevy dropped them crapy Korean Cars they sell here and sold them " Bloody Luvly Ozzy Meat Pies" instead they would soon fill the Showrooms. . Or Spam.

ditto i to only clicked on when i saw "meat pies".wasnt chevy who's name was daewoo before you couldnt give them away in the uk.

i can just imagine an ozzy pie,lovely body very nice on the inside and good on juice.

as for spam give me a chevy boot full.

[Jitar]

Furthermore, you can't blame the TAFTA for the lack of vehicle exports into Thailand. That blame lays fair and square with the Thai Government and their over zealous excise tax.

In relation to the car industry and the TAFTA deal, someone in Australia has to put their hand up and say "I was the knucklehead that knew nothing about where the automotive industry was headed, and believed so strongly that the Commodore and Falcon would never die, that I agreed to a clause limiting our duty-free export of cars to ones with engines > 3,000cc, and accepted a 6% import duty on smaller engined cars that we gave them 0% on"....

There wasn't too many people in the industry at the time that didn't shake their heads at that one (people outside of Australia and USA that is).

So Australian politician has to admit a mistake

So far Labour says it the fault of the Liberals who say it s the fault of labour and the unions who say it the fault of the car companies who say its the fault of the dollar and high costs, which presumably are the fault of the Labour and Liberal governments over the last decade or two.

[wilcopops]

The reason they're leaving is because there's not enough people buying them. Now the same people who didn't support this local manufacturer are screaming about how terrible it is they're leaving. Sad for the employees, off to QLD and WA to dig dirt I guess.

WHY aren't they buying them? It's all very well saying "support your local businesses, but this is a management thing they need to make something the locals want at a price they can afford - Because although it's nice to think you need a big muscular car, the practicalities are quite different. The large Holdens simply don't have enough people who actually can afford to buy them (part from government departments) - so the only thing they could sell are imported small car designs.

It's less about consumer affordability than it is Holden/Ford's financial incapacity to invest in R&D, and competitively manufacture new models in more desirable segments. Outside of the Holden Snooze and Toyota's Camry, their whole industry remains pegged to 6 and 8 cylinder D segment cars that lost their popularity as fast as netbook computers did when the iPad was released. And they couldn't revive enough interest with turbo 4 engines and LPG systems that came too little, too late.

FTA's like the one with Thailand didn't help them much either - prior to that only a handful of pickups were exported to Oz - since TAFTA the Oz market is flooded with practically everything that's made here, all duty free. I expect the recent FTA between Aust and South Korea was final nail in Holden's coffin, seeing as their volume sellers are all rebadged Daewoos anyway

What a total sham the TAFTA (Thailand-Australia Free Trade Agreement) has been for the Australian Car manufacturing industry. As a result, according to ABC 7.30 report 12/12/2013, to date approximately over 200,000 cars have been exported to Australia from Thailand and only 100 manufactured Australia cars have been exported back to Thailand since. Someone has been definitely asleep at the wheel on this one because now, more than likely, the Red drovers dog has been riding around in the back of a pick-up manufactured in THAILAND, inadvertently, at Australian tax payer’s expense.

R.I.P… Australian Car manufacturing industry.

I saw that report too......the figures taken in isolation show a different story from the big picture. The deal is part of a complex set of trade-offs to allow Oz to sell raw materials (wine even!) in Thailand and ASEAN. The fact is that giving Thailand the deal on car imports allowed Australians to have cheap pickups (utes) and small sedans etc....something that Holden couldn't make. Even without duties Holden's big cars would not have sold in Thailand as they are incompatible with the whole situation here, they would have incurred high insurance and road tax too.