Court rules today on Bt2-tn loan bill

[webfact]

CONTROVERSIAL LOAN BILL
Court rules today on Bt2-tn bill
Nakarin Srilert
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- The caretaker government might scrap the Bt700-billion high-speed train project if the Constitutional Court rules today that the Bt2-trillion loan bill was passed in violation of the Constitution.

Meanwhile, the Thai Federation of Industries (FTI) was concerned that the delay in the country's infrastructure project might impact economic growth for the next seven years.

The court verdict is expected to be delivered today. The court started hearing the petition, filed by the Democrat Party, on January 8 after the Senate had passed the loan bill.

"I'm not worried about the ruling on the bill as we respect the court's verdict," said caretaker deputy Prime Minister Phongthep Thepkanjana.

The court will decide whether the loan bill violates Articles 169 and 170 of the Constitution.

The government argues that the Bt2-billion loan is not a kind of "State Fund" under Article 169 of the Constitution. Therefore, it does not need to go through the House in the same way as a national budget. If the loan is not a state fund, the government will not have to report the fund's financial statement to the House and the Senate as stipulated by Article 170.

The huge loan bill, already passed by the Senate, gives the Finance Ministry the power to borrow up to Bt2 trillion to finance the infrastructure projects such as double-track railways, mass-transit electric trains, sea ports, motorways and high-speed trains.

Asked how the government would accept responsibility if the bill was ruled unconstitutional, Phongthep said in normal circumstances, the prime minister might have had to take responsibility and resign or the government would have had to dissolve the House.

"But, as House has already been dissolved and we're a caretaker government, we don't need to do anything to accept responsibility," Phongthep said

Caretaker Transport Minister Chadchart Sittipunt said the government would alter its infrastructure development plan if the Bt2-trillion loan bill was found to be in breach of the Constitution, by putting off some projects requiring huge investment such as the high-speed trains.

Premier Yingluck Shinawatra said if the court's verdict went against the Bt2-trillion loan bill, it would be sad as Thailand would lose an opportunity for infrastructure development.


-- The Nation 2014-03-12

[Thai at Heart]

If that railway doesn't get built, half the business families in Isaan will go under. They are building like crazy to accommodate whatever business this railway may bring.

[Robroona]

It may very well have gotten started (years late), but there is little chance it would ever get completed. After the normal 30% rip offs, the lack of planning and feasibility studies, it would only be fit for carrying white elephants.

Looks like this guy is quite happy to pass the buck already

[Robroona]

It may very well have gotten started (years late), but there is little chance it would ever get completed. After the normal 30% rip offs, the lack of planning and feasibility studies, it would only be fit for carrying white elephants.

Looks like this guy is quite happy to pass the buck already

[ChrisY1]

Hopefully common sense will prevail in the courts.....but..it ain't some common!!

[ChrisY1]

If that railway doesn't get built, half the business families in Isaan will go under. They are building like crazy to accommodate whatever business this railway may bring.

Isaanites planning???...Planning the scams more likely!

[Thait Spot]

If that railway doesn't get built, half the business families in Isaan will go under. They are building like crazy to accommodate whatever business this railway may bring.

Given that it was only going as far as Korat?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ramrod711]

"I'm not worried about the ruling on the bill as we respect the court's verdict," said caretaker deputy Prime Minister Phongthep Thepkanjana.

A PTP government respecting a court verdict, mark that on the calendar, only happens once every three years. As to the railroad, they don't need high speed rail, upgrade maintenance and double tracking would be a much better option.

[looping]

CONTROVERSIAL LOAN BILL

Court rules today on Bt2-tn bill

Asked how the government would accept responsibility if the bill was ruled unconstitutional, Phongthep said in normal circumstances, the prime minister might have had to take responsibility and resign or the government would have had to dissolve the House.

"But, as House has already been dissolved and we're a caretaker government, we don't need to do anything to accept responsibility," Phongthep said

-- The Nation 2014-03-12

What a nice man he is. He must be very troubled that he's unable to take responsibility for his actions.

Goes against everything he believes in.

YL is clearly upset as well at this potential loss of business.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[djjamie]

The high speed train costs 700 billion baht. if half of the current 12,000 daily domestic airline passengers used the high-speed trains instead at a rate of 1,600 baht per person per trip, the investment would yield a return of almost 10 million baht per day, or more than 3.5 billion baht annually it would take around 200 years for the amount to be recouped. That is without interest. With interest included then it would be 374 years.

So thaksins great great great great great great great great grand son would still be spending the 2 billion baht and the tax payer would still be paying this loan off all because the PTP want this loan "out of budget" to ensure no transparency.

The government cannot even show fiscal discipline in ensuring they had loans secured to fund the rice scheme before they went into caretaker mode. A simple oversight like that and they now want to be entrusted with 2 trillion baht!! The contempt this government have for the majority is abysmal.

At least the majority have woken up to this fact now. My prediction is it will be knocked on the head and they will have to go through the standard budgetary (transparent) channels.

The PTP seem to be getting loans for everything yet not once have they asked to borrow a brain. So one can only assume they are still brainless.

Edited March 12, 2014 by djjamie

[englishoak]

the future is NOT diesel trains nor coaches ............ just saying

[rheinwiese]

You are spot on.

And these are only the construction cost.

Moreover your calculation does not even include the costs of rolling stock, maintenance and operating expenses.

Economical insanity.

[ginjag]

The high speed train costs 700 billion baht. if half of the current 12,000 daily domestic airline passengers used the high-speed trains instead at a rate of 1,600 baht per person per trip, the investment would yield a return of almost 10 million baht per day, or more than 3.5 billion baht annually it would take around 200 years for the amount to be recouped. That is without interest. With interest included then it would be 374 years.

So thaksins great great great great great great great great grand son would still be spending the 2 billion baht and the tax payer would still be paying this loan off all because the PTP want this loan "out of budget" to ensure no transparency.

The government cannot even show fiscal discipline in ensuring they had loans secured to fund the rice scheme before they went into caretaker mode. A simple oversight like that and they now want to be entrusted with 2 trillion baht!! The contempt this government have for the majority is abysmal.

At least the majority have woken up to this fact now. My prediction is it will be knocked on the head and they will have to go through the standard budgetary (transparent) channels.

The PTP seem to be getting loans for everything yet not once have they asked to borrow a brain. So one can only assume they are still brainless.

Who on earth is going to pay 1,600 baht for a few hour trip when A Asia fly to Udon in 55 mins at less than that.

UK trains are not bullet style but are quick, and function very well, I travelled 350 mile return trip for 1,500 baht. Why don't they settle for this system, double track to Nong Khai. fraction of the cost of this RIP OFF....................200 miles Yorkshire to London in 1 hour 40 mins.

Brains are needed here not bullet trains.

[Arkady]

Would surprise me if the court rules this was OK, since the Constitution clearly requires this type of expenditure to go through the budgetary approval process requiring parliamentary approval for obvious reasons. All the projects are justifiable in terms of boosting economic development with the exception of the hi-speed train which is unfortunately the lion's share of the B2.2 trn. That one would have a tough time passing any objective test of viability in terms of both financial profitability and boosting of economic activity, enhanced productivity etc. There would also be a high concentration of imported equipment from China raising risks of low efficiency, accidents and graft. In addition a hi-tech project would be an excuse for many hi-value consulting contracts of dubious validity.

[renaissanc]

... The PTP seem to be getting loans for everything yet not once have they asked to borrow a brain. So one can only assume they are still brainless.

I love the last part! Yes, they do need to borrow a brain.

[robblok]

It would be totally crazy if projects like this could be done without checks and balances. I really don't understand that the Reds don't see that this government lives for graft. They create the perfect oportunity for it.

[SoilSpoil]

Fingers crossed that my grand children won't be paying off the 5 trillion (including interest) loan. That's a 5 with 12 zeros and equals about 80.000 baht per capita! And that all for a white elephant!

[Yunla]

They should spend more money on enacting and enforcing strict regulations of driver standards on both road and rail, as well as improving the physical quality of these existing transport systems in many areas. There is a lot of low/mid level work and a serious no-nonsense regulatory overhaul that is needed here to make transport safer, things that should be focused on long before the "faster" factor enters the equation.

[rametindallas]

"Caretaker Transport Minister Chadchart Sittipunt said the government would alter its infrastructure development plan if the Bt2-trillion loan bill was found to be in breach of the Constitution, by putting off some projects requiring huge investment such as the high-speed trains."

Unfortunately this is the only intelligent statement of the Minister to be published.

[bigbamboo]

If that railway doesn't get built, half the business families in Isaan will go under. They are building like crazy to accommodate whatever business this railway may bring.

I can't believe you are seriously suggesting business people there are 'building like crazy' to accomodate a railway line that will take years to even reach them.... if ever.

They may not be educated (according to their red leaders) but they're not that stupid surely?

Edited March 12, 2014 by bigbamboo

[scorecard]

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If that railway doesn't get built, half the business families in Isaan will go under. They are building like crazy to accommodate whatever business this railway may bring.

Some examples please.

[Arkady]

"Caretaker Transport Minister Chadchart Sittipunt said the government would alter its infrastructure development plan if the Bt2-trillion loan bill was found to be in breach of the Constitution, by putting off some projects requiring huge investment such as the high-speed trains."

Unfortunately this is the only intelligent statement of the Minister to be published.

He seems to be a reasonable person and one of the best quality ministers in the caretaker cabinet but he has a very limited background in or understanding of finance. But he is a caretaker minister know and it would be more appropriate to say that a future government would have no choice but to scrap the hi-speed train (which should never have been proposed in the first place).

[rubl]

If the 700++ billion rice price pledge disaster is anything to go by, it would seem such gigantic budgets put outside parliamentary scrutiny are just a way for this care-taking government to work on corruption.

BTW such triffling things as double-tracking used to be in the NationalBudget, there for all to see, there for slow but yearly advance.

[Dogmatix]

It would be totally crazy if projects like this could be done without checks and balances. I really don't understand that the Reds don't see that this government lives for graft. They create the perfect oportunity for it.

The management grade reds are businessmen who are in the movement for money. They know the government lives for graft and so do they. The active rank and file are paid to demonstrate. Some of the lesser educated inactive members may actually believe in the stated ideals but have a hazy understanding of them. The well educated inactive members believe in something else, e.g. communism, socialism, and are just fellow travellers because there are no pure left wing movements with any credibility in Thailand (any nascent ones have always been crushed with extra judicial murders and disappearances) and they like the idea of PT causing chaos and transferring taxpayers money to the poor (I suppose some of it has reached the poor) and unseating the so called "elite". They believe they can ride on Thaksin's coat tails until the moment comes to slit his throat along with all other capitalists and form the utopian socialist republic. There are also some hard core types like this in the fringe red shirt groups. They are old hands from the CPT who were selected for training in Hanoi like Thida. Thida hides her communist past but some of the others don't and they are behind the idea of the PDR Lanna.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Dogmatix

[PepperMe]

Asked how the government would accept responsibility if the bill was ruled unconstitutional, Phongthep said in normal circumstances, the prime minister might have had to take responsibility and resign or the government would have had to dissolve the House.

"But, as House has already been dissolved and we're a caretaker government, we don't need to do anything to accept responsibility," Phongthep said.

Yes, but have you stopped to consider that YOU and EVERYONE in the PTP and Senate who voted in favour of this loan bill, can be IMPEACHED for this?

After threatening to IMPEACH 5 C Court judges, conveniently in the run up to this decision to gain leverage, do you really expect this court to be lenient on your asses??

Edited March 12, 2014 by PepperMe

[jpeg]

If that railway doesn't get built, half the business families in Isaan will go under. They are building like crazy to accommodate whatever business this railway may bring.

What are the government hospitals like up Isaan way? Fully equipped state of the art with the shortest waiting lines in Thailand? If not, I would suggest they get their priorities right instead of the never ending worshipping of their god, Mammon. Business be damned.

[SICHONSTEVE]

If that railway doesn't get built, half the business families in Isaan will go under. They are building like crazy to accommodate whatever business this railway may bring.

Are they??

Silly them. Can't they get anything right?

There is taking a calculated risk and being darned stupid!! I think that the latter one applies here because this ain't going to see the light of day, is it!!

[Scamper]

The ruling today by the Constitutional Court will be key, as it highlights everything that Pheu Thai did when they were in office - by fashioning bills that were specifically designed to evade parliamentary oversight. If the bill is deemed unconstitutional, Pheu Thai will have no recourse other than to take responsibility for it. And it is up to the courts to determine the nature that that responsibility should take - and not Pheu Thai. If this former minister's response is to deny responsibility - as what he is suggesting here - then it will be up to the courts to determine the parameters of responsibility and how it is to be enforced. Court rulings have consequences. And an unconstitutional bill totaling 2 trillion baht of loans has consequences.

[webfact]

UPDATE:

Bt2tn bill ruled unconstitutional

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/710361-bt2tn-bill-ruled-unconstitutional/#entry7552395

[Stan7444]

The high speed train costs 700 billion baht. if half of the current 12,000 daily domestic airline passengers used the high-speed trains instead at a rate of 1,600 baht per person per trip, the investment would yield a return of almost 10 million baht per day, or more than 3.5 billion baht annually it would take around 200 years for the amount to be recouped. That is without interest. With interest included then it would be 374 years.

So thaksins great great great great great great great great grand son would still be spending the 2 billion baht and the tax payer would still be paying this loan off all because the PTP want this loan "out of budget" to ensure no transparency.

The government cannot even show fiscal discipline in ensuring they had loans secured to fund the rice scheme before they went into caretaker mode. A simple oversight like that and they now want to be entrusted with 2 trillion baht!! The contempt this government have for the majority is abysmal.

At least the majority have woken up to this fact now. My prediction is it will be knocked on the head and they will have to go through the standard budgetary (transparent) channels.

The PTP seem to be getting loans for everything yet not once have they asked to borrow a brain. So one can only assume they are still brainless.

Having recently seen a presentation and the reports along with the justification for the high speed train project, the presumption that passenger traffic will pay for it is completely untrue. In fact, the great about 90% of the income will be from logistics transportation between ASEAN countries with Thailand serving as the logistics hub. Part of this project will connect Dawei port in Burma/Myanmar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawei_Port_Project ) to Thailand and then on to Cambodia and Vietnam. Eventually it will also connect China with Thailand through Laos for the transportation of goods and possibly link up Singapore and Malaysia with Thailand.

The end result will be to decrease roadway traffic with trucks and decrease the cost per km of transport by using rail instead of roadways. A side benefit will be passenger traffic, allowing people to move about the country much faster and safer.

Most people do not currently chose to use rail transport in Thailand since 1) it takes longer in most cases than driving, and 2) the rail system has not been upgraded for more than 25 years, with many train engines even older. The tracks are falling apart resulting in derailments each month, making train travel unsafe.

For Thailand to become a major player in the ASEAN community as the logistics hub, which will bring more jobs and an increased economy, the country must move forward with this overhaul of the rail transportation network. All of Thai industry and foreign companies here are 100% in full support of this project.

There are many national public works which do not need to be cost justified since they are for the overall growth and development of a country and therefore in the best national interest.