abs and awd in relation to skidding

[triffid]

I have become very - maybe overly - wary of skidding because very recently I got into one and lost control while doing a downhill bend on a wet road. Ended up with the car's nose squashed at a concrete barrier - without the latter I'd have gone down the mountain. So my question is:

 

How effective is the abs and/or awd in avoiding skids on wet roads?

If both are relevant are they equally as important or is one of them much more so?

is rear wheel drive any better than front wheel for this potential problem?

 

Salesmen eager to sell me front wheel drive cars - with abs but not awd - insist awd is utterly irrelevant and abs is the sole solution. I'd appreciate comments from those in the know.

[bkkjames]

my understanding (please correct me fellow motoring members) is ABS one is not supposed to pump the brakes at all, just keep pushing and the system will on/off automatically if you will to help prevent skidding / lessen it to stop .. hopefully.

 

Not sure how AWD would help this as you are in braking mode not driving mode - AWD may help prevent a skid in the first place but once the ABS kicks in, I don't think it makes any difference.

 

Again, just my layman thoughts, I am sure some more expert opinions will come forth to clarify things. 

Edited July 31, 2014 by bkkjames

[transam]

ABS sorts stuff out for you when braking, BUT if you are in an out of control skid it does nothing, you are in control. 4WD is the the way to go if you have the cash,BUT, if in a skid, you are again in control....

[triffid]

my understanding (please correct me fellow motoring members) is ABS one is not supposed to pump the brakes at all, just keep pushing and the system will on/off automatically if you will to help prevent skidding. 

 

Not sure how AWD would help this as you are in braking mode not driving mode - AWD may help prevent a skid in the first place but once the ABS kicks in, I don't think it makes any difference.

 

Again, just my layman thoughts, I am sure some more expert opinions will come forth to clarify things. 

 

So you suggest awd does reduce the likelihood of going into a skid. 

(I was going into a downhill leftward bend and the back of the car swung to the right - of course I didn't keep my head and swung the steering wheel right round to the right - ending up hitting the barrier at the left pretty much a right angles. Scary, because this was a very sharp and big, i.e. fatal, drop and what's worse there would have been a barrier at all in another 40 yards down the road.)

[J4M35]

The number of wheels being driven and the drive layout of the vehicle ceases to be of any relevance as soon as you are off the throttle. AWD/4WD exists only for the purpose of traction and stability under acceleration.

If you are coasting or decelerating, as far as physics is concerned a vehicle is just a mass and a velocity with four tyres.  

 

If you are in the situation where you are skidding sideways, 4WD, AWD might make you more likely to recover it IF (and it's a BIG if) you have the skill, space and time to pull the vehicle straight again using the throttle before hitting something first. This basically never happens in the real world, it wouldn't have helped in your circumstance in my opinion.

 

ABS was designed only to enable the driver to apply maximum braking effort whilst still retaining the ability to steer the car as is prevents the tyres from skidding on the surface. This the feature which most often makes the difference between a controlled stop and an out-of-control skid.

 

Going back to my 'mass, velocity and four tyres' remark, the significance of tyres in this equation cannot be overstated. They determine the traction, grip, control, and stopping distance of your vehicle. Fit quality tyres and no modern car will handle in a way which is dangerous.

  

Edited July 31, 2014 by J4M35

[Bpuumike]

Have to ask what you are driving.

A pick-up with no load in the back is the worst case.

Personally I am not a believer in ABS. Sure AWD or 4WD is safer but a lot more wear & tear in permanent 4WD.

As mentioned above, the right tyres for the vehicle and at the correct pressures are very important. Don't leave it to someone else as the Thais tend to very much over-inflate tyres.

[Tywais]

The ABS in itself will not help that much in a sideways skid or slide.  Electronic stability control, TSC (for Toyota Traction stability control) or VSA (for Honda vehicle stability assist) are meant to do that.  It independently controls all 4 wheel brakes and accelerator to help get out of slide or over steer situation.

[WarpSpeed]

Always have trouble with topics like this as much of it comes down to driver, and there is really no way to answer without sounding judgmental or arrogant. Bottom line is that if one does not understand the advantages of either or both just having them is clearly not going to be enough to aid that driver very much with a response on an internet forum.

[WarpSpeed]

my understanding (please correct me fellow motoring members) is ABS one is not supposed to pump the brakes at all, just keep pushing and the system will on/off automatically if you will to help prevent skidding / lessen it to stop .. hopefully.

 

Not sure how AWD would help this as you are in braking mode not driving mode - AWD may help prevent a skid in the first place but once the ABS kicks in, I don't think it makes any difference.

 

Again, just my layman thoughts, I am sure some more expert opinions will come forth to clarify things. 

Well I'd be in both modes, left foot braking while right foot throttling and steering as AWD works better while pulling but at the same time you might to brake in an instant to aid in control or stop wheel spin, in that instant of being off throttle when you may need to be throttling up again, it could be the dif. between being nose into a barrier and driving out of the loss of control.. It does make dif,being able to have all four wheels hold traction can aid in not getting into the problem in the first place, the salesman/woman has a typical Thai perspective about something they really don't really understand so they just respond by saying "no need"..

 

A trick that is often used to regain control in a circumstance of turning while sliding after braking control is lost, is once you begin to slide under wet conditions and if you're trying to turn then turn the wheel hard over in the direction you want to turn and then lift off the brake, the car in most every case will grip and hook in that direction as soon as you let off the brake. It's sudden though so you need to be ready to counter steer and straighten out immediately when it grips or else you will likely spin or possibly oversteer into the next lane..

Edited July 31, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[J4M35]

Bpuumike is quite right about unloaded pick-up trucks. I too would quite like to know what car triffid was driving and what tyres were fitted. As for being a 'non-believer' though, for me and all production car manufacturers across the world, the benefits of ABS to the vast majority of drivers are unequivocal.

 

Stability control is another step upwards and should prevent you losing control in the first place, as Tywais says.

 

I'm going to fall into WarpSpeed's trap here and say something which sounds judgemental. If Triffid wasn't quick enough to apply opposite lock (steer into the slide), then I would assume that like the vast majority of drivers Triffid did not have the time or does not have the experience to re-gain control of the vehicle using the throttle and steering.

 

The beauty of ABS is that it enables the driver to stomp on the brakes as hard as possible and still be able to dictate the direction of travel to some extent. If all four wheels are locked up the vehicle is just going to travel on a straight trajectory until it either stops or hits something.

 

To be perfectly frank I am going to say that whichever new vehicle you buy will probably be safer and more difficult to crash by virtue of having four new tyres, modern suspension, and new ABS brakes.

[seedy]

If I may add ...

 

Many problems with loss of stability can be overcome by application of throttle. Especially front wheel drive vehicles.

 

I do not mean a little - floor that sucker, turn wheel in direction you want to go, and drive out of it.

 

But this is not a normal reaction, and must be taught - and practiced.

[triffid]

I was in a mazda 3 hatchback. The road was very wet. My tyres (dunlops) were not old but I had given no particular attention to specifics when they were replaced. 

 

Having never been in a skid before and (sub)conscious of the drop to my left, I admittedly panicked and anyway was ignorant about the various correcting tips that have been suggested here. At least in a future such situation I might recall some of these - and more importantly keep my head. 

 

I shall in the foreseeable future be getting a new car or suv (but not a pickup). Based on your suggestions/comment I should

1) try to get awd if available/affordable - as it would reduce the chances of a skid in the first place

2) ensure good tyres - suggestions? - and replace sooner not later; also keep them under- not over-inflated if likely to be on wet roads.

 

The key conclusion if going into a downhill bend in the wet (or if skidding) seems to be to not use the brake - and reduce speed, if need be, solely with a lower gear. Once in the skid I should have ensured my foot was off the accelerator, and turned the wheel towards the right - but not too much.

 

However, and contrarywise, WarpSpeed says maybe turning hard right but without the brake might have done it - I can't dispute it because I almost certainly did brake. And seedy thinks I might have got away by flooring the throttle and turning the wheel, which would have taken guts when the car was skidding towards the barrier and mountain edge.

 

It's comical that the salesman assured me again and again that abs was the key helpful feature and awd was irrelevant. I am however curious about the Electronic stability control (tywais). Presumably if Honda (CRV and Mazda cx5 are among my options) and Toyota have it all modern cars/suv s also would?

 

Thanks for all comments already made.

Edited August 1, 2014 by triffid

[WarpSpeed]

Having never been in a skid before and (sub)conscious of the drop to my left, I admittedly panicked and anyway was ignorant about the various correcting tips that have been suggested here. At least in a future such situation I might recall some of these - and more importantly keep my head. 

 

I shall in the foreseeable future be getting a new car or suv (but not a pickup). Based on your suggestions/comment I should

1) try to get awd if available/affordable - as it would reduce the chances of a skid in the first place

2) ensure good tyres - suggestions? - and replace sooner not later; also keep them under- not over-inflated if likely to be on wet roads.

 

The key conclusion if going into a downhill bend in the wet (or if skidding) seems to be to not use the brake - and reduce speed, if need be, solely with a lower gear. Once in the skid I should have ensured my foot was off the accelerator, and turned the wheel towards the right - but not too much.

 

However, and contrarywise, WarpSpeed says maybe turning hard right but without the brake might have done it - I can't dispute it because I almost certainly did brake. And seedy thinks I might have got away by flooring the throttle and turning the wheel, which would have taken guts when the car was skidding towards the barrier and mountain edge.

 

It's comical that the salesman assured me again and again that abs was the key helpful feature and awd was irrelevant. I am however curious about the Electronic stability control (tywais). Presumably if Honda (CRV and Mazda cx5 are among my options) and Toyota have it all modern cars/suv s also would?

 

Thanks for all comments already made.

Well thought out response, not defensive at all..And quite the opposite, an honest and realistic post... The bold portion is paramount, have to keep your wits about you in these situations and what will happen is it will all slow down and you can think it through and react in what seems like minutes instead of seconds or even split seconds. Panic will only result in bad news.

 

Seedy is right, and so was I and so was JM and some others though more vague. Read my post again, I said ideally you should be doing both and by left foot braking (practice, it is not an easy task to get the correct feel) while applying throttle you learn to control both wheel spin and direction and I was speaking generally but more about AWD, But as Speedy said in reference to FWD directly, you need to apply heavy throttle with a FWD as you also need to do with an AWD car conversely to a RWD car when it is losing control, but only given that you have the room to safely make the correction when applying throttle as it could make an impact worse, the front wheels pull you out, it's a difficult thing to do, to see yourself possibly hitting something or going off the road and thinking I have to accelerate to pull myself out of this? Goes completely against your natural instincts to brake and stop yourself.

 

That's why the need to left foot brake as it may be necessary to control wheel spin and still have a small bore engine running at high rpm's so it has the torque to pull you out. But wheel spin is a killer in these techniques and a full throttle will most definitely produce wheel spin with a full lock steering wheel and wet conditions as required to pull out this slide, only tire traction will save you and in the wet with a hard turned wheel that is pulling you is only going to slide more sideways as long as it's losing traction, so either left foot brake to stop the spin and allow the tires to grip or lift off the brake and the throttle entirely with the wheels turned hard once slowed a little and allow the tire to grip and hook you in the direction you wish to turn? I hope that is more clear.

Edited August 1, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[Ace of Pop]

Never had the ABS come in for ages, but i sometimes whack the brakes on over fast loose tracks just to hear them work a bit.

[triffid]

 

Having never been in a skid before and (sub)conscious of the drop to my left, I admittedly panicked and anyway was ignorant about the various correcting tips that have been suggested here. At least in a future such situation I might recall some of these - and more importantly keep my head. 

 

I shall in the foreseeable future be getting a new car or suv (but not a pickup). Based on your suggestions/comment I should

1) try to get awd if available/affordable - as it would reduce the chances of a skid in the first place

2) ensure good tyres - suggestions? - and replace sooner not later; also keep them under- not over-inflated if likely to be on wet roads.

 

The key conclusion if going into a downhill bend in the wet (or if skidding) seems to be to not use the brake - and reduce speed, if need be, solely with a lower gear. Once in the skid I should have ensured my foot was off the accelerator, and turned the wheel towards the right - but not too much.

 

However, and contrarywise, WarpSpeed says maybe turning hard right but without the brake might have done it - I can't dispute it because I almost certainly did brake. And seedy thinks I might have got away by flooring the throttle and turning the wheel, which would have taken guts when the car was skidding towards the barrier and mountain edge.

 

It's comical that the salesman assured me again and again that abs was the key helpful feature and awd was irrelevant. I am however curious about the Electronic stability control (tywais). Presumably if Honda (CRV and Mazda cx5 are among my options) and Toyota have it all modern cars/suv s also would?

 

Thanks for all comments already made.

Well thought out response, not defensive at all..And quite the opposite, an honest and realistic post... The bold portion is paramount, have to keep your wits about you in these situations and what will happen is it will all slow down and you can think it through and react in what seems like minutes instead of seconds or even split seconds. Panic will only result in bad news.

 

Seedy is right, and so was I and so was JM and some others though more vague. Read my post again, I said ideally you should be doing both and by left foot braking (practice, it is not an easy task to get the correct feel) while applying throttle you learn to control both wheel spin and direction and I was speaking generally but more about AWD, But as Speedy said in reference to FWD directly, you need to apply heavy throttle with a FWD as you also need to do with an AWD car conversely to a RWD car when it is losing control, but only given that you have the room to safely make the correction when applying throttle as it could make an impact worse, the front wheels pull you out, it's a difficult thing to do, to see yourself possibly hitting something or going off the road and thinking I have to accelerate to pull myself out of this? Goes completely against your natural instincts to brake and stop yourself.

 

That's why the need to left foot brake as it may be necessary to control wheel spin and still have a small bore engine running at high rpm's so it has the torque to pull you out. But wheel spin is a killer in these techniques and a full throttle will most definitely produce wheel spin with a full lock steering wheel and wet conditions as required to pull out this slide, only tire traction will save you and in the wet with a hard turned wheel that is pulling you is only going to slide more sideways as long as it's losing traction, so either left foot brake to stop the spin and allow the tires to grip or lift off the brake and the throttle entirely with the wheels turned hard once slowed a little and allow the tire to grip and hook you in the direction you wish to turn? I hope that is more clear.

 

To be sure I get your meaning, the first option is to take the foot off the accelerator and brake and only after the tyres have gripped (and the speed is hopefully down a bit) turn the wheel, and the second option is take foot of both brake and accelerator and soon after turn the wheel hard towards desired direction. In either case the throttle only comes into it after grip is regained. Correct? In your earlier post you suggested using brake and throttle together with left and right foot on an awd car but here you've dropped that presumably because that technique needs expertise and practice. Seedy suggested full throttle immediately with wheel in direction of desired travel and no brake - on a front wheel drive car. Correct?

 

On a separate point would a new car today costing 1m+ baht normally come with an appropriately good quality of tyres (for wet roads etc)? So one just needs to stick with that brand/type when replacing? Or could one find better tyres here?

[transam]

 

 

Having never been in a skid before and (sub)conscious of the drop to my left, I admittedly panicked and anyway was ignorant about the various correcting tips that have been suggested here. At least in a future such situation I might recall some of these - and more importantly keep my head. 

 

I shall in the foreseeable future be getting a new car or suv (but not a pickup). Based on your suggestions/comment I should

1) try to get awd if available/affordable - as it would reduce the chances of a skid in the first place

2) ensure good tyres - suggestions? - and replace sooner not later; also keep them under- not over-inflated if likely to be on wet roads.

 

The key conclusion if going into a downhill bend in the wet (or if skidding) seems to be to not use the brake - and reduce speed, if need be, solely with a lower gear. Once in the skid I should have ensured my foot was off the accelerator, and turned the wheel towards the right - but not too much.

 

However, and contrarywise, WarpSpeed says maybe turning hard right but without the brake might have done it - I can't dispute it because I almost certainly did brake. And seedy thinks I might have got away by flooring the throttle and turning the wheel, which would have taken guts when the car was skidding towards the barrier and mountain edge.

 

It's comical that the salesman assured me again and again that abs was the key helpful feature and awd was irrelevant. I am however curious about the Electronic stability control (tywais). Presumably if Honda (CRV and Mazda cx5 are among my options) and Toyota have it all modern cars/suv s also would?

 

Thanks for all comments already made.

Well thought out response, not defensive at all..And quite the opposite, an honest and realistic post... The bold portion is paramount, have to keep your wits about you in these situations and what will happen is it will all slow down and you can think it through and react in what seems like minutes instead of seconds or even split seconds. Panic will only result in bad news.

 

Seedy is right, and so was I and so was JM and some others though more vague. Read my post again, I said ideally you should be doing both and by left foot braking (practice, it is not an easy task to get the correct feel) while applying throttle you learn to control both wheel spin and direction and I was speaking generally but more about AWD, But as Speedy said in reference to FWD directly, you need to apply heavy throttle with a FWD as you also need to do with an AWD car conversely to a RWD car when it is losing control, but only given that you have the room to safely make the correction when applying throttle as it could make an impact worse, the front wheels pull you out, it's a difficult thing to do, to see yourself possibly hitting something or going off the road and thinking I have to accelerate to pull myself out of this? Goes completely against your natural instincts to brake and stop yourself.

 

That's why the need to left foot brake as it may be necessary to control wheel spin and still have a small bore engine running at high rpm's so it has the torque to pull you out. But wheel spin is a killer in these techniques and a full throttle will most definitely produce wheel spin with a full lock steering wheel and wet conditions as required to pull out this slide, only tire traction will save you and in the wet with a hard turned wheel that is pulling you is only going to slide more sideways as long as it's losing traction, so either left foot brake to stop the spin and allow the tires to grip or lift off the brake and the throttle entirely with the wheels turned hard once slowed a little and allow the tire to grip and hook you in the direction you wish to turn? I hope that is more clear.

 

To be sure I get your meaning, the first option is to take the foot off the accelerator and brake and only after the tyres have gripped (and the speed is hopefully down a bit) turn the wheel, and the second option is take foot of both brake and accelerator and soon after turn the wheel hard towards desired direction. In either case the throttle only comes into it after grip is regained. Correct? In your earlier post you suggested using brake and throttle together with left and right foot on an awd car but here you've dropped that presumably because that technique needs expertise and practice. Seedy suggested full throttle immediately with wheel in direction of desired travel and no brake - on a front wheel drive car. Correct?

 

On a separate point would a new car today costing 1m+ baht normally come with an appropriately good quality of tyres (for wet roads etc)? So one just needs to stick with that brand/type when replacing? Or could one find better tyres here?

 

 

There is always something better out there.........
 

[WarpSpeed]

 

 

Having never been in a skid before and (sub)conscious of the drop to my left, I admittedly panicked and anyway was ignorant about the various correcting tips that have been suggested here. At least in a future such situation I might recall some of these - and more importantly keep my head. 

 

I shall in the foreseeable future be getting a new car or suv (but not a pickup). Based on your suggestions/comment I should

1) try to get awd if available/affordable - as it would reduce the chances of a skid in the first place

2) ensure good tyres - suggestions? - and replace sooner not later; also keep them under- not over-inflated if likely to be on wet roads.

 

The key conclusion if going into a downhill bend in the wet (or if skidding) seems to be to not use the brake - and reduce speed, if need be, solely with a lower gear. Once in the skid I should have ensured my foot was off the accelerator, and turned the wheel towards the right - but not too much.

 

However, and contrarywise, WarpSpeed says maybe turning hard right but without the brake might have done it - I can't dispute it because I almost certainly did brake. And seedy thinks I might have got away by flooring the throttle and turning the wheel, which would have taken guts when the car was skidding towards the barrier and mountain edge.

 

It's comical that the salesman assured me again and again that abs was the key helpful feature and awd was irrelevant. I am however curious about the Electronic stability control (tywais). Presumably if Honda (CRV and Mazda cx5 are among my options) and Toyota have it all modern cars/suv s also would?

 

Thanks for all comments already made.

Well thought out response, not defensive at all..And quite the opposite, an honest and realistic post... The bold portion is paramount, have to keep your wits about you in these situations and what will happen is it will all slow down and you can think it through and react in what seems like minutes instead of seconds or even split seconds. Panic will only result in bad news.

 

Seedy is right, and so was I and so was JM and some others though more vague. Read my post again, I said ideally you should be doing both and by left foot braking (practice, it is not an easy task to get the correct feel) while applying throttle you learn to control both wheel spin and direction and I was speaking generally but more about AWD, But as Speedy said in reference to FWD directly, you need to apply heavy throttle with a FWD as you also need to do with an AWD car conversely to a RWD car when it is losing control, but only given that you have the room to safely make the correction when applying throttle as it could make an impact worse, the front wheels pull you out, it's a difficult thing to do, to see yourself possibly hitting something or going off the road and thinking I have to accelerate to pull myself out of this? Goes completely against your natural instincts to brake and stop yourself.

 

That's why the need to left foot brake as it may be necessary to control wheel spin and still have a small bore engine running at high rpm's so it has the torque to pull you out. But wheel spin is a killer in these techniques and a full throttle will most definitely produce wheel spin with a full lock steering wheel and wet conditions as required to pull out this slide, only tire traction will save you and in the wet with a hard turned wheel that is pulling you is only going to slide more sideways as long as it's losing traction, so either left foot brake to stop the spin and allow the tires to grip or lift off the brake and the throttle entirely with the wheels turned hard once slowed a little and allow the tire to grip and hook you in the direction you wish to turn? I hope that is more clear.

 

To be sure I get your meaning, the first option is to take the foot off the accelerator and brake and only after the tyres have gripped (and the speed is hopefully down a bit) turn the wheel, and the second option is take foot of both brake and accelerator and soon after turn the wheel hard towards desired direction. In either case the throttle only comes into it after grip is regained. Correct? In your earlier post you suggested using brake and throttle together with left and right foot on an awd car but here you've dropped that presumably because that technique needs expertise and practice. Seedy suggested full throttle immediately with wheel in direction of desired travel and no brake - on a front wheel drive car. Correct?

 

On a separate point would a new car today costing 1m+ baht normally come with an appropriately good quality of tyres (for wet roads etc)? So one just needs to stick with that brand/type when replacing? Or could one find better tyres here?

 

Nope, I guess it wasn't more clear, that's not it at all. I said both brake AND throttle as the first option FWD or AWD, if you can practice to achieve that coordination. It requires threshold braking while gently lifting the brake from that point, while depressing the throttle so as to control wheel spin and maintain grip. Or with the wheel hard in the direction you want to travel once grip is lost under braking, let the brake go and no throttle, it will grip quickly and turn in that direction at which point you then apply throttle to pull you through the corner. The problem with the second technique is that you are down on RPM's on an engine that does not produce a lot of torque so it will be more difficult for it to pull you through but additionally it also takes less throttle to change your direction as your tires now have grip, but in both techniques you must have both feet in play to reduce reaction time which is critical in those circumstances, so one foot over both brake and throttle.

 

Bottom line, find yourself a stretch of untraveled road when it's raining or preferably a large wet parking lot in the rain and try it a few times at a lower speed to see what happens and how the car will react so you know what to expect. Induce a skid by hitting the brake hard and then apply the techniques, don't wait until you need it to try to figure it out in a near panic situation. This is the difficulty with responding to these topics, I want to be helpful but these techniques require practice and personal instruction honestly to be truly effective. I'm always dubious about attempting to instruct on line as you also need to account for a completely different momentum and set of variables going down hill as everything is magnified exponentially as is timing.

Edited August 1, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

I need to include this overlooked fact relating to many current car models but in other markets, not necessarily in Thailand. You need to test left foot braking first by holding down the brake while accelerating and noticing if your car engine cuts out? As of several years ago many western governments adopted a requirement that when you step on the brake and the gas together it cut the engine due to serious accidents and deaths caused by people doing this and suddenly, unpredictably out of confusion of them having both depressed and which foot was holding what? Releasing the brake and the car accelerating and seriously injuring or killing some one. A woman here in the states did that to her daughter and killed her in her garage and that, of course caused many, (including the woman who killed her own daughter and can't take responsibility for her own incompetence) to call for this change and it is now programmed into the ECU. I myself learned about this mostly unknown feature as I use this technique in my racing as it makes me quite quick under braking, through and out of corners and when I track tested a newer model, stock class, Polo in China some years ago it kept cutting out on me essentially making it very difficult to drive very quickly. That was when I realized I had heard about this change being put into effect previously a few years earlier and immediately sussed it out as that feature being the problem.

[Wong!]

I was in a mazda 3 hatchback. The road was very wet. My tyres (dunlops) were not old but I had given no particular attention to specifics when they were replaced. 
 
Having never been in a skid before and (sub)conscious of the drop to my left, I admittedly panicked and anyway was ignorant about the various correcting tips that have been suggested here. At least in a future such situation I might recall some of these - and more importantly keep my head. 
 
I shall in the foreseeable future be getting a new car or suv (but not a pickup). Based on your suggestions/comment I should
1) try to get awd if available/affordable - as it would reduce the chances of a skid in the first place
2) ensure good tyres - suggestions? - and replace sooner not later; also keep them under- not over-inflated if likely to be on wet roads.
 
The key conclusion if going into a downhill bend in the wet (or if skidding) seems to be to not use the brake - and reduce speed, if need be, solely with a lower gear. Once in the skid I should have ensured my foot was off the accelerator, and turned the wheel towards the right - but not too much.
 
However, and contrarywise, WarpSpeed says maybe turning hard right but without the brake might have done it - I can't dispute it because I almost certainly did brake. And seedy thinks I might have got away by flooring the throttle and turning the wheel, which would have taken guts when the car was skidding towards the barrier and mountain edge.
 
It's comical that the salesman assured me again and again that abs was the key helpful feature and awd was irrelevant. I am however curious about the Electronic stability control (tywais). Presumably if Honda (CRV and Mazda cx5 are among my options) and Toyota have it all modern cars/suv s also would?
 
Thanks for all comments already made.

Not sure Toyota has any cars here with stability conttol, but most of the better manufacturers have started introducing it on some of their top models.

[transam]

 

I was in a mazda 3 hatchback. The road was very wet. My tyres (dunlops) were not old but I had given no particular attention to specifics when they were replaced. 
 
Having never been in a skid before and (sub)conscious of the drop to my left, I admittedly panicked and anyway was ignorant about the various correcting tips that have been suggested here. At least in a future such situation I might recall some of these - and more importantly keep my head. 
 
I shall in the foreseeable future be getting a new car or suv (but not a pickup). Based on your suggestions/comment I should
1) try to get awd if available/affordable - as it would reduce the chances of a skid in the first place
2) ensure good tyres - suggestions? - and replace sooner not later; also keep them under- not over-inflated if likely to be on wet roads.
 
The key conclusion if going into a downhill bend in the wet (or if skidding) seems to be to not use the brake - and reduce speed, if need be, solely with a lower gear. Once in the skid I should have ensured my foot was off the accelerator, and turned the wheel towards the right - but not too much.
 
However, and contrarywise, WarpSpeed says maybe turning hard right but without the brake might have done it - I can't dispute it because I almost certainly did brake. And seedy thinks I might have got away by flooring the throttle and turning the wheel, which would have taken guts when the car was skidding towards the barrier and mountain edge.
 
It's comical that the salesman assured me again and again that abs was the key helpful feature and awd was irrelevant. I am however curious about the Electronic stability control (tywais). Presumably if Honda (CRV and Mazda cx5 are among my options) and Toyota have it all modern cars/suv s also would?
 
Thanks for all comments already made.

Not sure Toyota has any cars here with stability conttol, but most of the better manufacturers have started introducing it on some of their top models.

 

 

They do, Altis, Corolla, Camry, Vigo, Fortuner.
 

[Ace of Pop]

Doest work too well on a  Fotuna looking into our Local Ravine.

[transam]

First car I had with ABS was a 1988 Volvo 760 Estate, it worked very well...........

[cooked]

Isn't there also the question of front wheel / rear wheel drive? I did a course on a skid pan many years ago and I seem vaguely remember this being talked about. No ABS then, we pushed the brake pedal down as many times and as quickly as we could, worked too up to a point. I had a few skids in Switzerland in winter, one time when changing down gear on the 'toboggan' stretch of motorway. It just needs experience and alertness to get used to. My last truck had front wheel drive + ABS and in five years I never had one single skid, the ABS set in three times during emergency braking.

[J4M35]

I have to say, returning to this thread, that it's strayed into slightly dodgy territory.

 

Are we really advocating that in future Triffid's reaction in such situations should be to press the brake with the left foot and accelerator with the right foot simultaneously?

 

Warpspeed, what you're saying is quite correct but I think you're taking for granted all of your years of experience of driving cars at the limit on the racetrack, where there is smooth tarmac, hundreds of meters of run-off and no pedestrians or fellow road users. Very few people have the benefit of this experience.

 

What you're discussing here are advanced techniques which require hours of practice and experience in all conditions to be able to perform consistently even in the controlled confines of an empty carpark or a racetrack. Applying techniques like this on the public road is wholly inappropriate, let alone suggesting these techniques to a driver who does not benefit from hours of experience. A driver's natural instinct in a loss of control situation is to stomp on the brakes and attempt to steer around the obstacle, and that is correct because the objective must be to reduce the speed and bring the car to a stop in the shortest possible time / distance.  

 

That's my opinion, but let's now look at this objectively;

 

Triffid was travelling downhill in the wet into a left-hand bend when the the car began to oversteer. We are informed that the car was a modern car fitted with decent tyres. Therefore, excessive speed for the conditions must be a factor- the handling of modern cars is very safe and it should be very difficult to make a modern FWD car oversteer without serious provocation (an abrupt lift of the throttle perhaps, maybe combined with an overly vigorous steering input). The driver's reaction was to hit the brakes, which is correct, but was unable to stop before hitting the barrier (quite hard I gather, seeing as the car was a write-off). Excessive speed.

 

The discussion has been confused by all this discussion about drivetrain layouts and I suspect a lot of people trying to be diplomatic by not pointing the finger at Triffid's driving. At the end of the day, the rules of physics apply regardless what shape your car is and no vehicle is uncrashable, even one fitted with ABS, Stability control etc. These systems aren't magic, they have to work within the confines of the available friction provided by four tyres on the road surface. Bad tyres? wet surface? diesel spill? then the ability of the tyre to generate friction on the surface is compromised. The driver must compensate by reducing speed and extending stopping distances.  

 

Sorry if this rubs anybody up the wrong way.

[J4M35]

the right tyres for the vehicle and at the correct pressures are very important. Don't leave it to someone else as the Thais tend to very much over-inflate tyres.

 

This is a good point, nobody seems to check tyre pressures in this part of the world.

[wilcopops]

 

"any relevance as soon as you are off the throttle." not true as ALL wheels will be affected by engine braking etc....rather than just 2.

 

​On paper front wheel drive gives better traction as the most weight is over the driving wheels.

4WD when engaged and AWD will help also.

​Rearwheel is in theory the most likely to lose traction but AWB in theory eliminates that.ESP is also a great help and traction control.

 

Basically all these systems wake up if a wheel stops spinning

the site has some explanations......it's just the first I Googled.....you might spend a few minutes googling it yourself until you find a site you understand.

 

 

 

http://jalopnik.com/this-is-how-abs-esc-and-traction-control-work-513807036

 

 

and a great picture explaining ABS....

 

 

 

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--g-mq9sDn--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_320/18ru6zyuvzrrsjpg.jpg

 

Edited August 2, 2014 by wilcopops

[WarpSpeed]

^ Corgi pic is  ...

 

I have to say, returning to this thread, that it's strayed into slightly dodgy territory.

 

Are we really advocating that in future Triffid's reaction in such situations should be to press the brake with the left foot and accelerator with the right foot simultaneously?

 

Warpspeed, what you're saying is quite correct but I think you're taking for granted all of your years of experience of driving cars at the limit on the racetrack, where there is smooth tarmac, hundreds of meters of run-off and no pedestrians or fellow road users. Very few people have the benefit of this experience.

 

What you're discussing here are advanced techniques which require hours of practice and experience in all conditions to be able to perform consistently even in the controlled confines of an empty carpark or a racetrack. Applying techniques like this on the public road is wholly inappropriate, let alone suggesting these techniques to a driver who does not benefit from hours of experience. A driver's natural instinct in a loss of control situation is to stomp on the brakes and attempt to steer around the obstacle, and that is correct because the objective must be to reduce the speed and bring the car to a stop in the shortest possible time / distance.  

 

That's my opinion, but let's now look at this objectively;

 

Triffid was travelling downhill in the wet into a left-hand bend when the the car began to oversteer. We are informed that the car was a modern car fitted with decent tyres. Therefore, excessive speed for the conditions must be a factor- the handling of modern cars is very safe and it should be very difficult to make a modern FWD car oversteer without serious provocation (an abrupt lift of the throttle perhaps, maybe combined with an overly vigorous steering input). The driver's reaction was to hit the brakes, which is correct, but was unable to stop before hitting the barrier (quite hard I gather, seeing as the car was a write-off). Excessive speed.

 

The discussion has been confused by all this discussion about drivetrain layouts and I suspect a lot of people trying to be diplomatic by not pointing the finger at Triffid's driving. At the end of the day, the rules of physics apply regardless what shape your car is and no vehicle is uncrashable, even one fitted with ABS, Stability control etc. These systems aren't magic, they have to work within the confines of the available friction provided by four tyres on the road surface. Bad tyres? wet surface? diesel spill? then the ability of the tyre to generate friction on the surface is compromised. The driver must compensate by reducing speed and extending stopping distances.  

 

Sorry if this rubs anybody up the wrong way.

 Erm did you read my first post on the topic and EVERY cautionary post I made in between?  This was a major part of my reluctance to answer the post in the first place. The answer is, it's up to him if he wishes to enhance his driving technique, he is presumably an adult not a 12 year old after all? I just gave him the proper technique to polish his skills, from there it's up to him if he wants to try to learn as it is for anyone else who reads the topic.. As for tracks being perfect surfaces and such that is utter nonsense and makes me question just how much you have raced as many tracks are quite bumpy and imperfect with off camber turns, decreasing radius turns, down hill and uphill sections while turning. In fact the first turn at Bira is several of those very challenges, it is down hill while braking and turning, it is off camber, bumpy and then up hill again it can be treacherous in the rain, and also many tracks have concrete walls being the defining portion of the track with no forgiveness for errors but also everything relative to every day streets from which the sport originated hence the original term of "road racing" which has now morphed into illegal activity. Many races now, especially in Thailand are still done on everyday streets, ever heard of Monaco?

 

Edit: Just noticed something else, your first sentence in your perception of what the Op stated is not even correct, The car did not begin to "oversteer" it understeered as it was sliding due to lost traction so it would not turn the corner as the tires were not gripping on the wet pavement as he attempted to brake hard and turn which made the matter worse,especially for a FWD car... A RWD car may have spun and/or hit it with the rear possibly or not depending, but since it was not a RWD car I have not ventured into that aspect of control intentional.. It's not for me to control what others do or don't do with the info? I provided the info and what he does with it as a grown adult is entirely up to him or anyone else who wishes to apply it.. That's what this forum is all about..

Edited August 2, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[seedy]

One thing to remember too ...

 

If your car or truck has ABS, be sure that you apply the brakes hard enuf on a regular basis to cause the ABS to function.

 

This keeps brake fluid circulating throughout the system, and stops the small pistons - one for each wheel - from freezing due to contaminates in the brake fluid.

 

Flush and refill the brake system at least every two years.

[wilcopops]

 

assuming you are in Thailand? - one thing you could look at is your TIRES.

Cheap tires can mean poor behaviour of certain surfaces. Tire pressure is also important.......for some inexplicable reason people in Thailand grossly over inflate their tires too....check the pressure is at the car manufacture's recommended level.

[seedy]

To back up WarpSpeed ...

 

Braking while accelerating is well known and used on motorcycles all the time.

 

Entering a corner, apply rear brake while advancing the throttle. It causes the bike to "settle" on its suspension in preparation for corner entry.

 

Also gives another degree of control if you cook it in too hot. Since the brake is already lightly applied, it takes no time at all to apply more - or reduce that braking force already applied.

 

Again - practice makes perfect.