Middle East conflict: Need for credible mediator

[khunken]

 

 

 

Agreed and not a word from the "anti-Zionists" about their bigotry. 

 
Just go ahead and defend the killing of innocent people in Gaza. The blood is on your thingers too!

I will ......Terriost and Future Terriost.....Roll on Israel

 

OK, fair is fair. This I do not like. There are some elements in Israeli society that are fascist and racist against Arabs and while it is perhaps human nature to go into dark places in times of war (and dehumanize the ENEMY), this kind of thing needs to be condemned. It is sick to revel in the deaths of innocents, on any side. 

 

 

I applaud you for this post Jingthing.

 

Now if only you could understand that anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism you'd have made up for some of the earlier extreme pro-Israel drivel that you supported from some of the supremacists.
 

[Kalebiran]

Even some Israelis think Netanhayu has gone too far. At least a tiny number have some humanity

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.605514

[khunken]

I applaud Mr Dorsey's article which is a very good analysis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

He is absolutely right about a credible mediator. Actually two are needed, one to get the current killing to stop (not just another cease-fire) and another to negotiate a real two-state solution. Previously Egypt filled the first need but it's current rulers are not acceptable to Hamas unsurprisingly, given their violent dispatch of the elected government there who were aligned with Hamas. No one has filled the second need due to Israel's insistence of a pro-Israeli negotiator, although Carter came close to being a rare fair-minded arbitrator.

 

It is unlikely that Israel's extreme right-wing rulers will ever be a credible party to negotiation. Still the current strong moves by Avaaz and other activist groups to get western companies to stop fuelling the settlements is a start. As Mr Dorsey says, Israel is winning the military battle but losing the diplomatic one.

[coma]

 

 

It is easier to achieve peace in the region than that. Just cease All US support for Israel. End.

That would make very little difference - other than allow Israel to take a harder line against the terrorists. Israels GDP is about 250 billion per year and the USA gives them about 3 billion per year in military support which is pretty much all spent on American military supplies. Israel could easily survive without it, if they had to.
 

 
No, it is impossible. How can Jewish controlled US not support Israel? Oh well, hold on for a moment, it already happened at least once that Jews did something against Jews. At the end of Second World War II, the Allies, so the US or in other words the jewish controlled US, was instrumental in bringing many Nazi leaders to US controlled South-America. So business-savy Jews did save Jews-killers. Should we call these american jews now anti-semite? 55555...
 

The U.S. did not act honorably to help European Jewish refugees during WW2.
.

As far as American political support for Israel, I think that will lessen somewhat over time due to demographic changes (largely more Latinos), but overall will remain strong and and any weakening will not be determinate in the survival of Israel either way. Israel in that region will remain vulnerable certainly for all of our lifetimes. 

You are right about not being honorable. They supported the creation of the Jewish State of Israel on Arab land on the other side of the world.
As for Latinos.Have to disagree with this comment. Latinos will never gain influence in Washington that the Jews currently enjoy. Edited August 2, 2014 by coma

[Jingthing]

Have to disagree with this comment. Latinos will never gain influence in Washington that Jew now enjoy.

 

Latinos are increasing in demographic numbers and elected officials. In certain important and large states of course dramatically so. Most pundits think it is highly possible the U.S. will have a Latino president in the foreseeable future. Latinos are polling not as supportive of Israel as other major American demographic groups. That's all I'm saying. Not markedly hostile ... just not as supportive. 

[Jay Sata]

What Israel needs is a centrist coalition to resolve their issues not the extreme right wing warmongers like Netanyahu.

I see none of the regular defenders of the Zionists who run the country can accept or concede the death toll being broadcast around the world.

[Chicog]

If you look at how Israel manipulates the narrative, they make the Arabs look like a bunch of clowns.

 

They've invaded the little territory the Palestinians actually have left, and yet the whole of the focus is on one missing Israeli soldier.

And the fact that Obama is there parroting their story tells you all you need to know about how much influence they have over America.

 

 

 

[Ulysses G.]

If you look at how Israel manipulates the narrative, they make the Arabs look like a bunch of clowns.

The Arabs keep provoking a much superior foe and getting their butts kicked. If the shoe fits...

[Jingthing]

No, but it wouldn't surprise me and I actually expect there to be more openly critical discussion about the U.S. relationship with Israel. We already see this in politicians like Rand Paul who certainly enjoys a high degree of popularity even though its clear to me he'll never be president. 

[Chicog]

No, but it wouldn't surprise me and I actually expect there to be more openly critical discussion about the U.S. relationship with Israel. We already see this in politicians like Rand Paul who certainly enjoys a high degree of popularity even though its clear to me he'll never be president. 

 

Jew hating is a bit of a Paul family trait I think.

[Chicog]

 

If you look at how Israel manipulates the narrative, they make the Arabs look like a bunch of clowns.

The Arabs keep provoking a much superior foe and getting their butts kicked. If the shoe fits...

 

 

They're only a much superior foe because they are armed to the teeth by the USA.

 

But what I meant was is that the Arabs and their supporters in the West are really quite rubbish at PR.

[joepublic]

 

 

 

Zionist != Jew

Semite != Jew

AntiSemite != anti Jew

 

 

That's totally ridiculous.

The vast majority of Jews support the existence of Israel.

While I agree not all Jews identify as Zionists, anti-Zionists generally do not accept the existence of Israel. 

Antisemitism refers ONLY to Jews. That is the DEFINITION. There is no argument about a set definition except with dictionary writers. 

 

 

Then please don't call Antizionism Antisemitism.

Call me an antizionist all day, and I will accept that, but when you use antisemite you imply I am anti jew which is not true.

 

I have documented the antisemtic rhetoric here several times by multiple posters using source materials. As far as your soul, I don't know it and frankly not really interested. That's your business. If you don't wish people to PERCEIVE you in this negative way, the solution would be to learn the ways in which antisemitic rhetoric is expressed and to stop doing it. 

There is a civilized, rational way to criticize Israel and Zionism and then there is the other way. In my opinion, the balance has tipped to the other way in much of the anti-Israel posts we have seen here since war broke out in Gaza. 

 

Ahh,.,so you are ignoring my point, I want you to STOP using the term antisemetic, and use antizionist. In response, you spin out a lot of words, that mean zero, My bad, thinking that you were actually interested,

[coma]

Have to disagree with this comment. Latinos will never gain influence in Washington that Jew now enjoy.
 

Latinos are increasing in demographic numbers and elected officials. In certain important and large states of course dramatically so. Most pundits think it is highly possible the U.S. will have a Latino president in the foreseeable future. Latinos are polling not as supportive of Israel as other major American demographic groups. That's all I'm saying. Not markedly hostile ... just not as supportive. 

Laymans terms. Do these Latinos have the money to buy their way or put someone else into the Whitehouse? Cuz at the moment that is what the high rolling Jews in the US are doing and have been doing for a while. I do agree in general that the demography is and will continue to swing Latino. Just a question mark hangs over their finacial might.

[coma]

 

Have to disagree with this comment. Latinos will never gain influence in Washington that Jew now enjoy.
 

Latinos are increasing in demographic numbers and elected officials. In certain important and large states of course dramatically so. Most pundits think it is highly possible the U.S. will have a Latino president in the foreseeable future. Latinos are polling not as supportive of Israel as other major American demographic groups. That's all I'm saying. Not markedly hostile ... just not as supportive. 
 

I don't think they would support a muslim cause though...
..except a few lefties, but they never come to America anyway.

Muslim cause ? OH lord. Perish the thought. This is why I support Palistinians in Palistine and all Arabs in their homelands. So they don"t have the refugee excuse and come to my neighbourhood trying to enforce their idiologies and way of life upon me and my family. Edited August 2, 2014 by coma

[joepublic]

 

 

 

 

Because of some feeble criticism of Neta-Nut-Job by Obama, the Zionists have made Obama a target. Don't ask Ulysses why - he does not know either - its just part of the Zionist playbook he has been given.

 

The truth is that Obama has been as compliant as any other US President when it comes to blindly supporting Isreal. Heck, he just gave the IDF new supplies of weapons to continue the blood sport of killing women and children, and bombing schools and hospitals. Instead of being grateful, the Zionist keep complaining. 

 

Sadly, it is more complicated than this. I do see how some see Israel as blood sport players, but it is far from accurate. It never ceases to amaze me how advocates for the terror group Hamas always turn a blind eye to causation, or at least complicity in the mess over there. When your attackers hide weapons, men, and products of war in hospitals, mosques, and other public venues, it makes collateral damage all the more likely. The implication is that Israel should nevertheless restrain from responding, even when they triangulate the mortars with pinpoint accuracy.

 

The use of "Zionist" is a perfect example; this is used as a pejorative of Jewish-First policies, with hardly any context given, such as the neighborhood in which Israel exists is populated by those who not only declare Islamic supremacy but wantonly murder, rape, destroy, maim, and malign any who even suggest equality- throughout the world! How can such context be lacking when you impugn the Jews? It is not only a neighborhood of Islam First, but it is a region of Annihilation of Israel second.

 

Those that think as this poster are best reflected in the UN Spokesperson saying, within the past 24 hours, that Israel might be liable for war crimes. He predicated this assertion on Israel not sharing with Hamas the technology of the Iron Dome. The duplicitous, disingenuous nature of anti-Semites is revealed in their charges, every time!

 

1. Hamas is a democratically elected organisation that resists the illegal occupation of Palestine. It is not terror to fight back against a rapist.

2. Zionism was designed over 100 years ago, with the express intention of stealing Palestine for European Jews. It is a long running agenda going back to the late 1800s. Its is wrong morally and legally.

3. The IDF ARE responsible for war crimes. Simply look at the pictures coming out of Gaza every day.  

4. You have been caught using antisemite, when you mean anti zionist.  Dont hide behind the name Jew, when you mean Zionist

[up-country_sinclair]

So, Israel won't accept the United Nations or the United States (its closest ally and protector) or any of its neighbors as credible mediators. 

 

Normally, disputes such as these would be resolved in the UN. But Israel and its apologists want you to believe that there is a vast conspiracy against Israel at the UN.  Israel and its apologists will point to the multiple resolutions against Israel over the years as their "evidence".  They conveniently neglect to mention that these resolutions were due to illegal, immoral and inhumane activity perpetrated by Israel--whether it be illegal settlements, illegal blockades or the flat out murder of innocent women and children.

 

The US has repeatedly acted as a mediator in the past whenever Israel found itself in yet another war.  But now Israel won't accept this option because the deck is not stacked as it has been in the past.  With the current US president, there is a slight chance at a fair mediation process, and this is just not acceptable to Israel.

 

In Africa it is quite common for warring nations to select another African nation to act as a mediator to resolve conflicts and disputes.  Needless to say, Israel can't do this because it has been in a near continual state of war with its neighbors for over sixty years.

 

Does anyone else get the feeling that Israel is the only credible mediator that Israel would accept?  It's time to end this charade and just state plainly and clearly that Israel is not at all interested in a mediated peace plan.

 

Edited August 2, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[Chicog]

So, Israel won't accept the United Nations or the United States (its closest ally and protector) as credible mediators. 

 

Does anyone else get the feeling that Israel is the only credible mediator that Israel would accept?  It's time to end this charade and just state plainly and clearly that Israel is not at all interested in a mediated peace plan.

 

 

Pretty well sums it up.

[ggold]

 

 

 

 
 

 
Because of some feeble criticism of Neta-Nut-Job by Obama, the Zionists have made Obama a target. Don't ask Ulysses why - he does not know either - its just part of the Zionist playbook he has been given.
 
The truth is that Obama has been as compliant as any other US President when it comes to blindly supporting Isreal. Heck, he just gave the IDF new supplies of weapons to continue the blood sport of killing women and children, and bombing schools and hospitals. Instead of being grateful, the Zionist keep complaining. 
 

Sadly, it is more complicated than this. I do see how some see Israel as blood sport players, but it is far from accurate. It never ceases to amaze me how advocates for the terror group Hamas always turn a blind eye to causation, or at least complicity in the mess over there. When your attackers hide weapons, men, and products of war in hospitals, mosques, and other public venues, it makes collateral damage all the more likely. The implication is that Israel should nevertheless restrain from responding, even when they triangulate the mortars with pinpoint accuracy.
 
The use of "Zionist" is a perfect example; this is used as a pejorative of Jewish-First policies, with hardly any context given, such as the neighborhood in which Israel exists is populated by those who not only declare Islamic supremacy but wantonly murder, rape, destroy, maim, and malign any who even suggest equality- throughout the world! How can such context be lacking when you impugn the Jews? It is not only a neighborhood of Islam First, but it is a region of Annihilation of Israel second.
 
Those that think as this poster are best reflected in the UN Spokesperson saying, within the past 24 hours, that Israel might be liable for war crimes. He predicated this assertion on Israel not sharing with Hamas the technology of the Iron Dome. The duplicitous, disingenuous nature of anti-Semites is revealed in their charges, every time!
 

1. Hamas is a democratically elected organisation that resists the illegal occupation of Palestine. It is not terror to fight back against a rapist.
2. Zionism was designed over 100 years ago, with the express intention of stealing Palestine for European Jews. It is a long running agenda going back to the late 1800s. Its is wrong morally and legally.
3. The IDF ARE responsible for war crimes. Simply look at the pictures coming out of Gaza every day.  
4. You have been caught using antisemite, when you mean anti zionist.  Dont hide behind the name Jew, when you mean Zionist

#1 convinced me your a nutcase

 

 

# 2,3,4 convince me he doesn't know what he is talking about, nut case is being too kind!

 

[Thaiready]

Even some Israelis think Netanhayu has gone too far. At least a tiny number have some humanity
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.605514

Where was your Humanity when they were shooting Rockets into Israel for the last several years..?????

I call it Payback

[Thaiready]

So, Israel won't accept the United Nations or the United States (its closest ally and protector) or any of its neighbors as credible mediators. 
 
Normally, disputes such as these would be resolved in the UN. But Israel and its apologists want you to believe that there is a vast conspiracy against Israel at the UN.  Israel and its apologists will point to the multiple resolutions against Israel over the years as their "evidence".  They conveniently neglect to mention that these resolutions were due to illegal, immoral and inhumane activity perpetrated by Israel--whether it be illegal settlements, illegal blockades or the flat out murder of innocent women and children.
 
The US has repeatedly acted as a mediator in the past whenever Israel found itself in yet another war.  But now Israel won't accept this option because the deck is not stacked as it has been in the past.  With the current US president, there is a slight chance at a fair mediation process, and this is just not acceptable to Israel.
 
In Africa it is quite common for warring nations to select another African nation to act as a mediator to resolve conflicts and disputes.  Needless to say, Israel can't do this because it has been in a near continual state of war with its neighbors for over sixty years.
 
Does anyone else get the feeling that Israel is the only credible mediator that Israel would accept?  It's time to end this charade and just state plainly and clearly that Israel is not at all interested in a mediated peace plan.
 

Who started this BS......???
Are you that dense to believe Hamas wants Peace...???

[Ulysses G.]

 

 

If you look at how Israel manipulates the narrative, they make the Arabs look like a bunch of clowns.

The Arabs keep provoking a much superior foe and getting their butts kicked. If the shoe fits...

 

 
They're only a much superior foe because they are armed to the teeth by the USA.

 

Thanks for bringing your usual vast knowledge to the subject. Israel won 3 major wars and a number of minor conflicts against numerous Arab armies with little help from the USA. They are a much superior foe, because they are one of the best armies in the world.  

Edited August 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[ggold]

 

 

No, it is impossible. How can Jewish controlled US not support Israel? Oh well, hold on for a moment, it already happened at least once that Jews did something against Jews. At the end of Second World War II, the Allies, so the US or in other words the jewish controlled US, was instrumental in bringing many Nazi leaders to US controlled South-America. So business-savy Jews did save Jews-killers. Should we call these american jews now anti-semite? 55555...

The "Jewish controlled US". Boy you are an upfront one. You are really talking turkey here.

It is interesting that no one else on your team seems to have any problem with your sentiments. After all, so many claim to be "anti-Zionists", rather than anti-Semites, but you don't bother with those petty distinctions. 

 

 

As much as you would like otherwise, no one hates Jews. They hate the land grab of the european askenazi. This land grab was formulated by the Zinoists, in direct opposition to Judaism.

Therefore, we oppose Zionism - being a Jew is irrelevent

 

 

 

"As much as you would like otherwise, no one hates Jews"             "we oppose Zionism - being a Jew is irrelevent"

 

 

Do you know any Christian Zionists? or Muslim ones for that matter.

 

Would have been fine to just stay with Zionism, bringing "being a Jew is irrelevant"  into it might make some  think your first sentence is is a denial of your true sentiments? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[joepublic]

 

 

1. Hamas is a democratically elected organisation that resists the illegal occupation of Palestine. It is not terror to fight back against a rapist.
2. Zionism was designed over 100 years ago, with the express intention of stealing Palestine for European Jews. It is a long running agenda going back to the late 1800s. Its is wrong morally and legally.
3. The IDF ARE responsible for war crimes. Simply look at the pictures coming out of Gaza every day.  
4. You have been caught using antisemite, when you mean anti zionist.  Dont hide behind the name Jew, when you mean Zionist

#1 convinced me your a nutcase

 

 

# 2,3,4 convince me he doesn't know what he is talking about, nut case is being too kind!

 

 

I love insults - means that you have no reply to the truth

[ggold]

 

 

 

 

The "Jewish controlled US". Boy you are an upfront one. You are really talking turkey here.

It is interesting that no one else on your team seems to have any problem with your sentiments. After all, so many claim to be "anti-Zionists", rather than anti-Semites, but you don't bother with those petty distinctions. 

 

 

As much as you would like otherwise, no one hates Jews. They hate the land grab of the european askenazi. This land grab was formulated by the Zinoists, in direct opposition to Judaism.

Therefore, we oppose Zionism - being a Jew is irrelevent

 

 

 

"As much as you would like otherwise, no one hates Jews"             "we oppose Zionism - being a Jew is irrelevent"

 

 

Do you know any Christian Zionists? or Muslim ones for that matter.

 

Would have been fine to just stay with Zionism, bringing "being a Jew is irrelevant"  into it might make some  think your first sentence is is a denial of your true sentiments? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What has the designs on another peoples land got to do with religion?

 

[Ulysses G.]

Of course there was no Palestine.

Now you've got it. If the Arabs had not starting attacking the Jews, everyone would be living where they started, but the UN had to step in and come up with a two state solution, which the Jews accepted and the Arabs refused. They have caused most of their problems themselves and they seem to never learn from their mistakes. Edited August 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Jay Sata]

A substantial number of the so called settlers and right wingers are newcomers to Israel under its so called right to return.

If you listen to some of the spokesmen you will identify an American accent as they or their parents were previously US nationals

Now I ask the pro Zionists why is it OK for a a person with Jewish ancestry to return to Israel but not one with Arab roots?

Where I come from that is discrimination akin to the Boers in South Africa.

[arjunadawn]

 

 

 

 

 

Because of some feeble criticism of Neta-Nut-Job by Obama, the Zionists have made Obama a target. Don't ask Ulysses why - he does not know either - its just part of the Zionist playbook he has been given.

 

The truth is that Obama has been as compliant as any other US President when it comes to blindly supporting Isreal. Heck, he just gave the IDF new supplies of weapons to continue the blood sport of killing women and children, and bombing schools and hospitals. Instead of being grateful, the Zionist keep complaining. 

 

Sadly, it is more complicated than this. I do see how some see Israel as blood sport players, but it is far from accurate. It never ceases to amaze me how advocates for the terror group Hamas always turn a blind eye to causation, or at least complicity in the mess over there. When your attackers hide weapons, men, and products of war in hospitals, mosques, and other public venues, it makes collateral damage all the more likely. The implication is that Israel should nevertheless restrain from responding, even when they triangulate the mortars with pinpoint accuracy.

 

The use of "Zionist" is a perfect example; this is used as a pejorative of Jewish-First policies, with hardly any context given, such as the neighborhood in which Israel exists is populated by those who not only declare Islamic supremacy but wantonly murder, rape, destroy, maim, and malign any who even suggest equality- throughout the world! How can such context be lacking when you impugn the Jews? It is not only a neighborhood of Islam First, but it is a region of Annihilation of Israel second.

 

Those that think as this poster are best reflected in the UN Spokesperson saying, within the past 24 hours, that Israel might be liable for war crimes. He predicated this assertion on Israel not sharing with Hamas the technology of the Iron Dome. The duplicitous, disingenuous nature of anti-Semites is revealed in their charges, every time!

 

1. Hamas is a democratically elected organisation that resists the illegal occupation of Palestine. It is not terror to fight back against a rapist.

2. Zionism was designed over 100 years ago, with the express intention of stealing Palestine for European Jews. It is a long running agenda going back to the late 1800s. Its is wrong morally and legally.

3. The IDF ARE responsible for war crimes. Simply look at the pictures coming out of Gaza every day.  

4. You have been caught using antisemite, when you mean anti zionist.  Dont hide behind the name Jew, when you mean Zionist

 

 

Your post clearly illustrates you do not believe in Israel's right to exist because it should have never been.

 

Hamas is a terrorist "organization." You implicitly suggest it is akin to, say... the Boy Scouts, or the Democratic Party. Your credibility has been lost on this single point. Yes, it has been voted into power but this does not reflect its legitimacy as much as it reflects the character of the people voting; they were a terrorist organization well before being voted to lead. This is not impugning an entire people; this is simply fact= Terrorist group/voted to represent!

 

BTW, in order for there to be an illegal occupation of Palestine there must have been a Palestine previously; there was not. The land that Israel occupies was never a Palestinian State; never. It was land that was withheld from Arab Independence agreements for the very reason that it did not significantly represent Arab lands, en masse!

 

You may have had credibility on #4; perhaps a valid point, but with the subtle suggestion that Hamas is simply an elected "organization," you again lose your intellectual strength. Lastly, lost in much of this, is the nature of the proxy war being waged through the local Arabs; this does influence events. I see you believe this strongly. You evidence research and discipline. Yet we both reach different conclusions. While we may not agree specifically, I hope we agree that this does represent the very gist of the problem. Should we at least remain able to discuss this, that is actually quite useful.

 

[Ulysses G.]

Now I ask the pro Zionists why is it OK for a a person with Jewish ancestry to return to Israel but not one with Arab roots?

Because the Arabs that you are talking about have been their sworn enemies for at least 100 years and Israel is not going to commit suicide as a homage to political correctness. Israel has the right to admit immigrants of their choosing, just like every other sovereign country. Edited August 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Jay Sata]

If you fail to accept the carnage and criminality behind the current slaughter you will have to face the fact that Israel is fast on the road to become a pariah state.

One rule for them and another for the rest.
Complaining about Iran having the technology to make electricity from nuclear power and demanding acess to UN inspectors but denying the fact they are the only nuclear power in the Middle East with the facility at Dimona.

Israel is a bully that wants the world to feel sorry for it while it kills hundreds of innocent civilians every day. Edited August 2, 2014 by Jay Sata

[up-country_sinclair]

Now I ask the pro Zionists why is it OK for a a person with Jewish ancestry to return to Israel but not one with Arab roots?
 

 

 

It's clearly an antisemitic policy.