16-Year-Old Student Dies During Hazing

[animatic]

Please ban these obnoxious and cruel American rituals from Thai colleges.

...

Unbelievable. Blame America for this?

Thai Visa...believe it or not. It is incredible, the lack of knowledge displayed by some posters.

To be fair, you might want to blame Hollywood and the export of American Television series.

Though the hazing described sounds a lot more like Hong Kong Kungfu movies,

and less american freshman goes to college movies.

[NeverSure]

Sadly now common in Thailand, Korea, Japan, Taiwan. Do it in the US these days and the university would be sued out of existence.

"Do it in the US these days and the university would be sued out of existence."

Exactly.

[NeverSure]

Please ban these obnoxious and cruel American rituals from Thai colleges. -snip-

In America such treatment would be a serious crime. Assault and battery and perhaps even kidnapping. Kidnapping is simply making someone believe he has no choice but to be where he doesn't want to be. It doesn't have to be grabbing someone forcibly and taking him somewhere.

The perps would be charged with crimes and certainly kicked out of uni with no chance of ever getting into another uni due to their criminal background.

The kids' parents and the school would be sued for major money and some would probably be bankrupted.

The knee jerk reaction with anti-American bigotry on here amazes me.

Edited August 31, 2014 by NeverSure

[NongKhaiKid]

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I don't want to distract from this tragic death but can someone explain to me what the "their son was diagnosed with leukemia many years ago, although his condition has been improving over the last four years" has to do with the case ?

It is just that the boy may have been weak (as in under strength) and should not have been submitted to these 'rituals' ?

Mind you, with 'social pressure' I doubt he could have avoided taking part without immediately casting himself out.

PS none of this is meant to justify, I only try to understand alt=wai.gif width=20 height=20>

Agree with Rubi, this is very sad for the young man and his family and I hope they can eventually get through their grief and move on.

On a different angle I have taught bachelor programs at several Thai universities, hiso and loso. In general terms both freshmen and seniors are very immature and their ability to think through these issues is quite limited. Most of them wouldn't, when these rituals come up each year, even think for one second in terms of any danger, any severe consequences.

I recall one incident where a student was severely injured, the dean of the faculty asked the father of the ringleader to come in. I was present, the discussion was in English, the father's only comment was 'I don't want to say anything to my son because I want him to have fun at uni'.

The example quoted goes to the root of many problems here and that is the total lack of acceptance of responsibility. It starts with parents and goes all the way up and through society to the highest levels and the higher up or more important you are, even if only in your own mind, the less likely you are to do anything wrong far less accept responsibility.

As for hazing many, if not most, unis will admit it does go on but will swear blind it's all safe, good and well intentioned fun and absolutely deny knowledge of any other activities.

[Triplebank999]

Please ban these obnoxious and cruel American rituals from Thai colleges.

...

Unbelievable. Blame America for this?

What's unbelievable is that you could construe from that remark that he was blaming America. Having said that, aren't American universities the places where the practice that the Thai students are copying originated? And sod Plato, the Thais aren't copying him.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Triplebank999

[Thai at Heart]

Such a sad story. Bullying in any form is to be abhorred. I am a little confused though, the unfortunate lads age is given as 16, but it then says he was at University. How can this be?

There is a 15 year ole girl at the university I teach at. She attended an International school. I forget what she told me but something about the British curriculum and that enabled her to enter the university.

Yes IGCSE gets u into university in Thailand. And isn't that an indictment.

[NeverSure]

Please ban these obnoxious and cruel American rituals from Thai colleges.

...

Unbelievable. Blame America for this?

What's unbelievable is that you could construe from that remark that he was blaming America. Having said that, aren't American universities the places where the practice that the Thai students are copying originated? And sod Plato, the Thais aren't copying him.

No, the practice is at least 2,400 years old. See post #9.

I can't believe the lack of education and bigotry on here sometimes.

[Gumballl]

Please ban these obnoxious and cruel American rituals from Thai colleges.

...

Unbelievable. Blame America for this?

Thai Visa...believe it or not. It is incredible, the lack of knowledge displayed by some posters.

To be fair, you might want to blame Hollywood and the export of American Television series.

US television series are created for the lowest caste of human society... that is, YOU!

[assayer]

Please ban these obnoxious and cruel American rituals from Thai colleges.

...

Unbelievable. Blame America for this?

Thai Visa...believe it or not. It is incredible, the lack of knowledge displayed by some posters.

To be fair, you might want to blame Hollywood and the export of American Television series.

OR: You might want to blame Thai soap operas !!!!

[Somtamnication]

Please ban these obnoxious and cruel American rituals from Thai colleges.

The ritual has been around long before there was even an America. Excerpt below of History of Hazing.

II. Hazing in the Past

The origins of hazing can be traced back to the founding of Plato’s academy in 387 B.C. (Nuwer, 1990, 1999). Plato likened such acts to those of wild animals and was quick to criticize the “practical jokes played by unruly young men that injured the hazed and citizens who got in the way” (Nuwer, 1999, p.92). Hazing incidents, which at the time were known as pennalism, became increasingly well documented in the Middle Ages as the prevalence of these incidents caused increasing problems for educators at all levels. Students of the time considered hazing to be a natural way to teach newcomers precedence:

The underlying idea ... was that the newcomer to the university was an untutored, uncivilized man, who had first to be polished before he could become a regular member of the university; before he could taste the sweets of a student's life he should suffer hardships (History of Hazing).

These hardships included physical abuse, subjection to course jokes and general humiliation; the later often taking the form of being forced to wear inappropriate clothes. All hardships were designed to make new students recognize their inferiority to upperclassman and to promote their substandard status. Traditional pennalism frequently ended after a student finished his first year of schooling and was celebrated with the newcomer paying for food and drink for all those present at his induction. In addition to the practices of pennalism, the English practice of fagging flourished at places like Cambridge and Oxford. Fagging was defined as “the right exercised by the older boy to make the younger do what he likes and what the younger one generally dislikes” (Nuwer, 1990, p. 117). Essentially every new student learned humility and etiquette by becoming a man-servant to an upperclassman.

Source .pdf

Someone has to be blamed, so................ BLAME THE GREEKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NeverSure]

Please ban these obnoxious and cruel American rituals from Thai colleges.

The ritual has been around long before there was even an America. Excerpt below of History of Hazing.

II. Hazing in the Past

The origins of hazing can be traced back to the founding of Plato’s academy in 387 B.C. (Nuwer, 1990, 1999). Plato likened such acts to those of wild animals and was quick to criticize the “practical jokes played by unruly young men that injured the hazed and citizens who got in the way” (Nuwer, 1999, p.92). Hazing incidents, which at the time were known as pennalism, became increasingly well documented in the Middle Ages as the prevalence of these incidents caused increasing problems for educators at all levels. Students of the time considered hazing to be a natural way to teach newcomers precedence:

The underlying idea ... was that the newcomer to the university was an untutored, uncivilized man, who had first to be polished before he could become a regular member of the university; before he could taste the sweets of a student's life he should suffer hardships (History of Hazing).

These hardships included physical abuse, subjection to course jokes and general humiliation; the later often taking the form of being forced to wear inappropriate clothes. All hardships were designed to make new students recognize their inferiority to upperclassman and to promote their substandard status. Traditional pennalism frequently ended after a student finished his first year of schooling and was celebrated with the newcomer paying for food and drink for all those present at his induction. In addition to the practices of pennalism, the English practice of fagging flourished at places like Cambridge and Oxford. Fagging was defined as “the right exercised by the older boy to make the younger do what he likes and what the younger one generally dislikes” (Nuwer, 1990, p. 117). Essentially every new student learned humility and etiquette by becoming a man-servant to an upperclassman.

Source .pdf

Someone has to be blamed, so................ BLAME THE GREEKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, blame the people responsible for what happened in the OP article. That's the topic.

Why all the interest in shifting the blame to other cultures when this happened in Thailand?

[slipperylobster]

Sadly now common in Thailand, Korea, Japan, Taiwan. Do it in the US these days and the university would be sued out of existence.

Philippines may be the worst of the lot, in this regard.

[slipperylobster]

Please ban these obnoxious and cruel American rituals from Thai colleges. -snip-

In America such treatment would be a serious crime. Assault and battery and perhaps even kidnapping. Kidnapping is simply making someone believe he has no choice but to be where he doesn't want to be. It doesn't have to be grabbing someone forcibly and taking him somewhere.

The perps would be charged with crimes and certainly kicked out of uni with no chance of ever getting into another uni due to their criminal background.

The kids' parents and the school would be sued for major money and some would probably be bankrupted.

The knee jerk reaction with anti-American bigotry on here amazes me.

Knee Jerk is definitely a good definition of how some posters immediately shift any problem whatsoever into a study of how bad America is. I say....knee jerk/foot in mouth......

please remove all feet.

[doremifasol]

Please ban these obnoxious and cruel American rituals from Thai colleges. They have no place in Thai culture. Seniors should be expelled for hazing and banned from enrolling any other college or open university for 10 years to give them time to adjust their attitudes and grow up. Rectors and principals who allow hazing to continue in their institutions should be fired and never put in a position of responsibility for the welfare of young adults again.

I believe that would put a stop to hazing over night. Only the emotionally inadequate would thing something had been lost from the Thai educational system.

I agree with most but strongly disagree with "Please ban these obnoxious and cruel American rituals from Thai colleges"

It seems to me that Thai students (those who practice these kind of rituals)

truly enjoy being abusers on their own, without the American blessing.

[bluebluewater]

I think we should blame America for the leukemia as well!

[kimamey]

Please ban these obnoxious and cruel American rituals from Thai colleges.

...

Unbelievable. Blame America for this?

The term hazing may be American but other than that I don't think it is. Probably goes back to before USA as we know it existed and was most likely bought over by Europeans. I don't know that for a fact but it's true of a lot of things.

[kimamey]

Please ban these obnoxious and cruel American rituals from Thai colleges.

The ritual has been around long before there was even an America. Excerpt below of History of Hazing.

II. Hazing in the Past

The origins of hazing can be traced back to the founding of Plato’s academy in 387 B.C. (Nuwer, 1990, 1999). Plato likened such acts to those of wild animals and was quick to criticize the “practical jokes played by unruly young men that injured the hazed and citizens who got in the way” (Nuwer, 1999, p.92). Hazing incidents, which at the time were known as pennalism, became increasingly well documented in the Middle Ages as the prevalence of these incidents caused increasing problems for educators at all levels. Students of the time considered hazing to be a natural way to teach newcomers precedence:

The underlying idea ... was that the newcomer to the university was an untutored, uncivilized man, who had first to be polished before he could become a regular member of the university; before he could taste the sweets of a student's life he should suffer hardships (History of Hazing).

These hardships included physical abuse, subjection to course jokes and general humiliation; the later often taking the form of being forced to wear inappropriate clothes. All hardships were designed to make new students recognize their inferiority to upperclassman and to promote their substandard status. Traditional pennalism frequently ended after a student finished his first year of schooling and was celebrated with the newcomer paying for food and drink for all those present at his induction. In addition to the practices of pennalism, the English practice of fagging flourished at places like Cambridge and Oxford. Fagging was defined as “the right exercised by the older boy to make the younger do what he likes and what the younger one generally dislikes” (Nuwer, 1990, p. 117). Essentially every new student learned humility and etiquette by becoming a man-servant to an upperclassman.

Source .pdf

I posted before I saw this so it looks like it isn't American.

[cardinalblue]

Dogmatrix must have had a bad American experience....

ISIS is looking for a few good men...

CB

[BSJ]

Shakespeare mentioned it in a poem: To haze or not to haze, that is the question dear Henry......du'eth one agree? If nay is the answer I can tighten the thumb screws ever more.

[rubl]

I don't want to distract from this tragic death but can someone explain to me what the "their son was diagnosed with leukemia many years ago, although his condition has been improving over the last four years" has to do with the case ?

It is just that the boy may have been weak (as in under strength) and should not have been submitted to these 'rituals' ?

Mind you, with 'social pressure' I doubt he could have avoided taking part without immediately casting himself out.

PS none of this is meant to justify, I only try to understand

Good for you.

You're a fine example.

Keep trying.

Please keep the animosity you show in the political threads out of this.

[Bob12345]

What happens if you don't go to these activities?

Unthinkable in Thailand as the whole educational system is focusing on group-think and conforming to what "seniors" tell you. You would be an outcast from day 1 and will have a very hard time the years after.

I have been to university here in Thailand and you wouldn't believe the amount of pressure even I experienced when the "drinking games" started and I wasn't helping "my group" to not come in last (especially as a guy). Since I am a bit older and can stand up for myself it was no problem, but every 16-20 year old would succumb within minutes.

... Seniors should be expelled for hazing and banned from enrolling any other college or open university for 10 years to give them time to adjust their attitudes and grow up. Rectors and principals who allow hazing to continue in their institutions should be fired and never put in a position of responsibility for the welfare of young adults again.

I believe that would put a stop to hazing over night.

Similar things happened in the Netherlands (people dying due to alcohol poisoning) and the government did what you proposed: a ban on alcohol during this period of time (juniors and seniors) with penalties of being expelled (student and fraternity the student belongs to). The problem disappeared almost overnight.

On a different angle I have taught bachelor programs at several Thai universities, hiso and loso. In general terms both freshmen and seniors are very immature and their ability to think through these issues is quite limited.

Agree. Most Thais in my class (hi-so) had grown up in a protective cocoon and this was one of their first opportunities to drink till they drop as their parents were not around. Nobody seems to understand the dangers of excessive alcohol and even the university staff was just standing there and smiling (and helping to hold the bags for the students to puke in so the carpet in the 5-star hotel would not be damaged). It seems nobody realizes that when one of these hi-so kids would be severely wounded or dies during such an event the university might be closed depending on whoever has the better connections.

A bit of good natured, non-violent fun as an "initiation" is probably fine, and I doubt anyone would complain, but the problems are compounded when underage students add alcohol to the mix.

Many initiation ceremonies in the Netherlands also switched to the "more fun" concept which works a lot better. Instead of drinking and beating it is now morning gymnastics in your underwear in the middle of the city followed by socially useful activities.

[Artisi]

Time this bullshit was eradicated from Thai universities. Having worked in the Thai university system I can assure you it serves no useful purpose whatsoever, actually it is exactly the opposite, but then with most university students approaching a mental age equivalent to a 13 year old western student can you expect anything else.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Artisi

[Manbing]

Something doesn't make sense in this story. The student had drowned. But was found unconscious in the sand?. No charges laid.

Sherlock Holmes is not required for this case.

[Artisi]

Something doesn't make sense in this story. The student had drowned. But was found unconscious in the sand?. No charges laid.

Sherlock Holmes is not required for this case.

Normal Thai newspaper reporting.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Artisi

[carbine1125]

Why not just stick to the things America IS guilty of

Me thinks the list would be way to long to post here!

[animatic]

Why not just stick to the things America IS guilty of

Me thinks the list would be way to long to post here!

As would be the case with most nation states if looked at minus nationalist fog.

Real politic is a dirty business and not one national leader world wide,

does not play it full force. Not having the international reach of USA,

and forces available to act, doesn't suddenly mean the others are

any less culpable or incapable of doing the same daily in their bailiwicks.

Of course resentment of the big dog on the block means the most rocks are thrown that way.

Since this discussion this is about hazing and how young people not in military service create hierarchies

within their subcultures you observe that the main force used is violent intimidation.

The older more experienced, beat down psychologically and usually physically the incoming freshmen,

so that they 'know their place', don't get uppity or forward and risk making the pre-established leading students lose face.

This is a wider spread issue in Thailand's schools than USAs. Sure everyone is a bit parochial,

world wide,'my school is better than the school next town over', especially around sports teams.

But the strict pecking order needs of Thailand society calls for face derived hierarchy creation,

From the earliest possible moment in any new situation, from an informal cocktail party,

to first week of school. Those that feel they must be wei'd to obsessively will make sure others know

where they stand from day one.

Edited September 1, 2014 by animatic

[djhotsox]

Such a sad story. Bullying in any form is to be abhorred. I am a little confused though, the unfortunate lads age is given as 16, but it then says he was at University. How can this be?

It's not unheard of, I myself started University when I was 16 years of age.

He would have been a bright lad.

Shame for his passing so young. RIP

[PaulHamon]

messed up. how about the go out and help the comminuty. rather than this shit.

[newermonkey]

Police detained 30 of the students and interrogated them, along with other witnesses on the beach. However, police said they have not pressed any charges, as they are still waiting for official autopsy reports to determine the cause of Mr. Pokai’s death

Police detained 30 of the students and interrogated them, along with other witnesses on the beach. However, police said they have not pressed any charges, as they are still waiting for moneis to be received so Mr. Pokai’s death can be declaired an acident.

So sad, RIP inocent young boy.

[RichinThailand]

Sadly now common in Thailand, Korea, Japan, Taiwan. Do it in the US these days and the university would be sued out of existence.

"Do it in the US these days and the university would be sued out of existence."

Exactly.

There are many deaths from hazing in the US. Fraternities and Sororities have hazing rituals that make this Thai hazing sound like kids play. Chico State University (in Chico, CA..150 miles NE of San Francisco) has had several alcohol poisoning deaths over the last few years from hazing incidents. You can't say this isn't happening in the US!!!