Daughter warned that family may commit suicide, mother says

[jlunse]

Show me a properly functioning welfare state please one that does not tax their citizens that make money too much. Show me a welfare state without abuse of the system.

What is too much tax for you and abuse of system? The welfare system we have in Sweden works really well.

Edited January 3, 2015 by jlunse

[rakman]

Not so happy new year for this family,money =route of all evil.R.I.P

the quote is:

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.

who knows what the money was for.

Was the prophecy on the family suicide for effect or premonition?

[TheFishman1]

Wow sad to read but I can't put my head around this one.

[trogers]

So much death over so little money.

This begs the question - Why would one set up a family with kids when one cannot even support himself/herself?

[lostinisaan]

Her former husband and two children were found hanging in the house, while her mother-in-law and sister-in-law were found dead on the ground floor.

He also said that about a year ago, Anant had reportedly called his younger brother to ask for Bt20,000 to Bt30,000 to cover his household expenses several times, and when the brother refused, Anant would threaten him with family suicide.

Uraiwan and relatives went to collect the bodies at General Police Hospital for funeral rites at Wat Lak Si.

Why do I smell fish,here? It all looks like Loan Sharks had already given the "warning" to them.

First, ( in Isaan) is if you don't pay "in time", you'll have to pay more. Second warning is that they might change the structure of your knee caps a little, which can be very inconvenient.

The last and final warning of some dubious loan sharks is indeed the "tip" to better hang yourself, before they do "this last unselfish service" for you.

I'm not making anything up. Happened before near our place and will happen again. Now it smells even more fishy.=

Edited January 3, 2015 by lostinisaan

[Johnniey]

I am at loss for words.....

This is so very sad.

R.I.P

How can they rest in peace.This is not what Thai Buddhists believe.

How would you like some religious nut saying something he believes when you die?

Now he is with Allah or similar.

You tosser... hows that for a saying?

How rude. I've a good mind to report you for flaming.

[lostinisaan]

I am saddened by this family's tragic end. I can relate a few stories that may add to the dialog and perhaps shed a bit of light on the Thai thinking of some in this area.

Suicide is a spirit. An evil spirit or in the case of Thailand, an evil ghost. Thais believe this is true but don't fully understand the overwhelming spiritual power they are facing. A Buddhist monk told me this. People will scoff and laugh at this idea but when Thai folks are desperate all it takes is a latent suggestion and a nudge from these evil entities to put the suicidal act into full play.

For example, I have witnessed several suicidal Thai people in our own village. They are generally inconsolable and may be on thier 2nd or even 3rd attempt to commit suicide. The reasons are varied and mostly solvable with a calm head and some time. Nevertheless, these Thai people want to die. They are crazy for death and are out of their minds; they are not acting like themselves. Thai people immediately suspect an evil ghost is the cause of the problem and diligently cart the suicidal relative off to the local temple for the monks to pray over. This I have witnessed personally. Sometimes it takes 4 or 5 Thai men to hold the person down in the back of a pickup truck while they drive to the temple. The "possessed" person is held down to keep them from jumping out of the fast moving truck thereby killing themselves.

This I have seen with my own eyes.

Now here is the shocking part. The head monk at our biggest local temple will no longer take on the task of praying for these Thai people who he says are "possessed by evil ghosts." He has tried and failed too many times to exercise them from the inhabited person. But here is the strangely odd rub. This head monk of the Buddhist temple takes the said possessed person, along with the anterage that accompanied him or her, and they all go together to the nearby tiny CHRISTIAN CHURCH!

Here, the head monks turns the patient over to the Thai Christian pastor or one of his family members. Immediately, the Thai Christians lay hands on the possessed person and pray to Jesus completely in Thai. No english is spoken as I and my Thai wife have witnessed this ourselves.

Almost immediately, after prayer, there is a stunning difference in the formerly crazy possessed persons demeanor. They are calm and back to themselves again. Apparently, the evil ghost has left them according to both the pastor as well as the head monk! In fact, these two Thai guys are now good friends. Indeed, the Thai Christian pastor tells all the local monks to please bring anyone that they cannot handle to his little church. He said this for all the surrounding villages to hear that his God Jesus is very powerful and can solve all Thai peoples spiritual problems.

Amazingly enough, the Thai pastor does not recieve money for this service as the Buddhist monks do. In fact, I saw the Thai pastor pray over these cases right out in the dirt parking lot of his church while men are holding the possessed person down in the back of a pickup! Amazing Thailand is all I can really say. And this is why I LOVE living in the Thai village setting. It's never boring.

What's the takeaway from all this? Suicide is an evil ghost that pushes people to do crazy stuff. I've seen it with my own eyes right here in Thailand. There are solutions as shown above. But never underestimate the devils hand in anything evil. That is our 1st mistake. Be safe and shun all evil in 2015. Even the Thai monks agree to this as seeing is believing. Peace!

Now here is the shocking part. The head monk at our biggest local temple will no longer take on the task of praying for these Thai people who he says are "possessed by evil ghosts." He has tried and failed too many times to exercise them from the inhabited person. But here is the strangely odd rub. This head monk of the Buddhist temple takes the said possessed person, along with the anterage that accompanied him or her, and they all go together to the nearby tiny CHRISTIAN CHURCH!

Here, the head monks turns the patient over to the Thai Christian pastor or one of his family members. Immediately, the Thai Christians lay hands on the possessed person and pray to Jesus completely in Thai. No english is spoken as I and my Thai wife have witnessed this ourselves.

​And I made the horrible mistake to pray to Jesus in German, when I was young, when people made me believe that religious bullshit.

"I and my Thai wife" says all about you. You receive the 2015 Wurlitzer..aehh Pulitzer. The drugs seem to be too strong for you..

Jesus was a native American, with white skin, right? Holy <deleted>.

[Neeranam]

Lostinisaan is doesn't matter what language you pray to Jesus in.

And it is exorcise, not exercise.

Jesus was a human being but it is the Christ/being/Buddha that he found, which is in us all, and can be found by many spiritual methods.

Praying to Jesus will do no good.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Neeranam

[lostinisaan]

Lostinisaan is doesn't matter what language you pray to Jesus in.

And it is exorcise, not exercise.

Jesus was a human being but it is the Christ/being/Buddha that he found, which is in us all, and can be found by many spiritual methods.

Praying to Jesus will do no good.

Your first sentence was actually my point. Just wondering if Jesus would understand my mother in law, while chewing betel nut....

The "exercise" part came from the "holy spirit writer."

Jesus was a human being? Is that what you've learned at school and from your parents? Isn't it more likely that Buddha, also called Siddhartha Gautama, was a human being, without the ability to "walk over the water" and to "make water to wine".?

I stopped praying many many moons ago and might not be part of the "survivors", mentioned by Jehovah's Witnesses.

Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, the ordinary Christians, divided into Roman Catholic and Protestants, plus the Jehovah Watchtower guys were all trying to tell me their point of view.

Telling me that others who go to church on Sundays would be wrong.

I'm finally happy that I woke up and see all as it is. A life with limits, quite a lot of suffering, some love, hate and jealousy.

And imagine there's no heaven, nor a hell. No matter what you do, or not do.

The last Mormons who saw me on crutches and were politely asking me if they could help me, received a decent answer. Please off.

.

Edited January 3, 2015 by lostinisaan

[Thai at Heart]

Actually tax fraud outweighs benefit fraud by many times in most developed western societies

[Mudcrab]

Show me a properly functioning welfare state please one that does not tax their citizens that make money too much. Show me a welfare state without abuse of the system.

What is too much tax for you and abuse of system? The welfare system we have in Sweden works really well.

The Muslims seem to love it. No need to work - just breed.

[tubby johnson]

Spoilt brats ..... Force their mother to work herself ragged, demand 20,000 Baht and threaten to hang themselves.

Oh well, people have died for less money.

[DeaconJohn]

Not so happy new year for this family,money =route of all evil.R.I.P

No, money is not the root of all evil... lack of money is the root of all evil.

[edwarda909]

Not so happy new year for this family,money =route of all evil.R.I.P

The "love" of money is known as the root of all evil. Many great things can be achieved with money for the less privileged and the sick in all societies if used properly..... R.I.P.

I love making money, and I don't fancy giving it away to others. Call me selfish but i seen how the welfare state works. This is why helping those close to you works better at least you know that there is need and can steer them a bit. Not like in the welfare state where you are robbed by taxes. Those taxes are then spend on cushy jobs for social workers and money is given to those that don't want to work.

I feel sorry for these people the family should have helped them but they probably had their own problems. Personally I do see suicide (for myself) as a way out (think terminal ill... destitute no quality of life). No religion or morals keeping me from it (unless I had kids)

So you don't think a welfare state would have helped these people?

You don't think that the whole point if a welfare state is to help families like this who have no one to help them?

You don't think that this sort of tragedy can be prevented by a properly functioning welfare state?

I am in the mental health field, for 25 years and the abuse just gets worse and worse, in USA.. The general public had no idea

Edited January 3, 2015 by edwarda909

[uel1968]

I am at loss for words.....

This is so very sad.

R.I.P

How can they rest in peace.This is not what Thai Buddhists believe.

How would you like some religious nut saying something he believes when you die?

Now he is with Allah or similar.

You tosser... hows that for a saying?

How rude. I've a good mind to report you for flaming.

No one said they are Buddhists,what makes you so sure,mmmm?

[Bluespunk]

@edwarda909

Which field of abuse?

The insurance companies refusing to meet their obligations?

The banking sector?

The politicians accepting "gifts/contributions for their campaigns"?

The police being cleared of shootings being based on racial profiling?

Lot of abuse going on in the world. You can't pick and choose the ones to ignore and the ones to condemn?

Edited January 3, 2015 by Bluespunk

[robblok]

@edwarda909

Which field of abuse?

The insurance companies refusing to meet their obligations?

The banking sector?

The politicians accepting "gifts/contributions for their campaigns"?

The police being cleared of shootings being based on racial profiling?

Lot of abuse going on in the world. You can't pick and choose the ones to ignore and the ones to condemn?

None of those others are financed with public money (tax money) (police is financed with tax money but in your example it has nothing to do with money)

So yes you can actually easily pick abuse in one and condemn others.

[bbbbooboo]

This sort of stupidity has no answer

[Bluespunk]

@edwarda909

Which field of abuse?

The insurance companies refusing to meet their obligations?

The banking sector?

The politicians accepting "gifts/contributions for their campaigns"?

The police being cleared of shootings being based on racial profiling?

Lot of abuse going on in the world. You can't pick and choose the ones to ignore and the ones to condemn?

None of those others are financed with public money (tax money) (police is financed with tax money but in your example it has nothing to do with money)

So yes you can actually easily pick abuse in one and condemn others.

It is all financed by public money.

Taxes pay for the police, it doesn't matter what the case is. Any corruption there is paid for by public money.

The banking sector bail out was public money.

The money used to pay for health care when insurers refuse to pay out is public money.

The corrupt deals that come about because of the cosy relationship between companies and politicians often involve public money and/or affect the public.

And no, you can't pick and choose.

If it's wrong it's wrong.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Bluespunk

[robblok]

@edwarda909

Which field of abuse?

The insurance companies refusing to meet their obligations?

The banking sector?

The politicians accepting "gifts/contributions for their campaigns"?

The police being cleared of shootings being based on racial profiling?

Lot of abuse going on in the world. You can't pick and choose the ones to ignore and the ones to condemn?

None of those others are financed with public money (tax money) (police is financed with tax money but in your example it has nothing to do with money)

So yes you can actually easily pick abuse in one and condemn others.

It is all financed by public money.

Taxes pay for the police, it doesn't matter what the case is. Any corruption there is paid for by public money.

The banking sector bail out was public money.

The money used to pay for health care when insurers refuse to pay out is public money.

The corrupt deals that come about because of the cosy relationship between companies and politicians often involve public money and/or affect the public.

And no, you can't pick and choose.

If it's wrong it's wrong.

Sorry.. but where I came from the banks were bailed out with a loan of public money and most of it is paid back already. So it does not cost the taxpayer one bit of money. However I condem the greed over there getting bailed out and still getting a bonus. The only reason that they pay it all back so fast where I come from is that as long as there is a loan the state has control and wont allow high bonuses.

Tell me how insurance companies get financed with tax money that is a new one for me (but if they dont do what you paid for take them to court)

And wrong is wrong but that does not matter you have to close your eyes for the problems with the welfare system.

Its like speeding and telling a cop but he speeds too. That is basically your argument. You are saying you can't pick on the welfare systems mistakes because there are other problems too. That is a total non argument.

The police example you made has nothing to do with the abuse of money..

Anyway you have no arguments you know welfare has serious problems and try to deflect the problem.

Problem with welfare is that it is hard to check and it requires a large bureaucratic machine and cost loads of money. Finding freeloaders there is quite easy. They are actually stealing from those who really deserve it.

That is why I will always be for a real basic minimum welfare system.

[Bluespunk]

@edwarda909

Which field of abuse?

The insurance companies refusing to meet their obligations?

The banking sector?

The politicians accepting "gifts/contributions for their campaigns"?

The police being cleared of shootings being based on racial profiling?

Lot of abuse going on in the world. You can't pick and choose the ones to ignore and the ones to condemn?

None of those others are financed with public money (tax money) (police is financed with tax money but in your example it has nothing to do with money)

So yes you can actually easily pick abuse in one and condemn others.

It is all financed by public money.

Taxes pay for the police, it doesn't matter what the case is. Any corruption there is paid for by public money.

The banking sector bail out was public money.

The money used to pay for health care when insurers refuse to pay out is public money.

The corrupt deals that come about because of the cosy relationship between companies and politicians often involve public money and/or affect the public.

And no, you can't pick and choose.

If it's wrong it's wrong.

Sorry.. but where I came from the banks were bailed out with a loan of public money and most of it is paid back already. So it does not cost the taxpayer one bit of money. However I condem the greed over there getting bailed out and still getting a bonus. The only reason that they pay it all back so fast where I come from is that as long as there is a loan the state has control and wont allow high bonuses.

Tell me how insurance companies get financed with tax money that is a new one for me (but if they dont do what you paid for take them to court)

And wrong is wrong but that does not matter you have to close your eyes for the problems with the welfare system.

Its like speeding and telling a cop but he speeds too. That is basically your argument. You are saying you can't pick on the welfare systems mistakes because there are other problems too. That is a total non argument.

The police example you made has nothing to do with the abuse of money..

Anyway you have no arguments you know welfare has serious problems and try to deflect the problem.

Problem with welfare is that it is hard to check and it requires a large bureaucratic machine and cost loads of money. Finding freeloaders there is quite easy. They are actually stealing from those who really deserve it.

That is why I will always be for a real basic minimum welfare system.

I have no arguments?

I am trying to deflect the problem?

Don't think so.

I gave you my arguments yesterday and you decided to agree to disagree, so don't give me that please.

My point on insurance companies….read it again and you may get it.

{By the by, who pays for the court system….hmm….}

The bankers who destroyed lives with their corrupt practices paid the money back. That makes it ok does it, steal, manipulate, break the law, but if you mess up we'll sort you out and you can pay us back.

Fine, do the same for those who abuse welfare. That is not an argument that makes the welfare state any less necessary.

The police example is perfectly applicable, when they do wrong, it is an abuse of the system they are supposed to uphold. Law and Order…paid for by public money.

Clear enough for you.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Bluespunk

[hawthorne]

hopefully the truth comes out and if this is a criminal act those responsible will be punished. Hard to believe that a hardship leads so many in one family to commit suicide?! Strange and sad story. LOS is becoming land of sorrow.

[robblok]

Sorry.. but where I came from the banks were bailed out with a loan of public money and most of it is paid back already. So it does not cost the taxpayer one bit of money. However I condem the greed over there getting bailed out and still getting a bonus. The only reason that they pay it all back so fast where I come from is that as long as there is a loan the state has control and wont allow high bonuses.

Tell me how insurance companies get financed with tax money that is a new one for me (but if they dont do what you paid for take them to court)

And wrong is wrong but that does not matter you have to close your eyes for the problems with the welfare system.

Its like speeding and telling a cop but he speeds too. That is basically your argument. You are saying you can't pick on the welfare systems mistakes because there are other problems too. That is a total non argument.

The police example you made has nothing to do with the abuse of money..

Anyway you have no arguments you know welfare has serious problems and try to deflect the problem.

Problem with welfare is that it is hard to check and it requires a large bureaucratic machine and cost loads of money. Finding freeloaders there is quite easy. They are actually stealing from those who really deserve it.

That is why I will always be for a real basic minimum welfare system.

I have no arguments?

I am trying to deflect the problem?

Don't think so.

I gave you my arguments yesterday and you decided to agree to disagree, so don't give me that please.

My point on insurance companies….read it again and you may get it.

{By the by, who pays for the court system….hmm….}

The bankers who destroyed lives with their corrupt practices paid the money back. That makes it ok does it, steal, manipulate, break the law, but if you mess up we'll sort you out and you can pay us back.

Fine, do the same for those who abuse welfare. That is not an argument that makes the welfare state any less necessary.

The police example is perfectly applicable, when they do wrong, it is an abuse of the system they are supposed to uphold. Law and Order…paid for by public money.

Clear enough for you.

Think you missed the point where i said i condemned their greed about the bankers, but we were talking about public money. So I countered that argument. Never said it was a good thing.

Did not get your insurance system sorry. (courts are paid by the tax payer and those that use it dual finance)

The police you are describing is US police.. and then even a real small part of them. Not going to judge here but some instances they were dead right. Other instances maybe not but if you don't run from them or get violent with them you don't get shot. Not even in the USA.

[robblok]

@bluespunk,

Good solution would be that those in favor of welfare have to finance it. Those that are not don't have to pay into it but are also not allowed to use it.

Sounds real fair to me. Then people with high morals like you could support your cause while others who don't see it for a good thing just don't.

Its always easy to tell people what to do but once it cost them money they often change their mind.

Edited January 4, 2015 by robblok

[timewilltell]

Not so happy new year for this family,money =route of all evil.R.I.P

The "love" of money is known as the root of all evil. Many great things can be achieved with money for the less privileged and the sick in all societies if used properly..... R.I.P.

I love making money, and I don't fancy giving it away to others. Call me selfish but i seen how the welfare state works. This is why helping those close to you works better at least you know that there is need and can steer them a bit. Not like in the welfare state where you are robbed by taxes. Those taxes are then spend on cushy jobs for social workers and money is given to those that don't want to work.

I feel sorry for these people the family should have helped them but they probably had their own problems. Personally I do see suicide (for myself) as a way out (think terminal ill... destitute no quality of life). No religion or morals keeping me from it (unless I had kids)

So you don't think a welfare state would have helped these people?

You don't think that the whole point if a welfare state is to help families like this who have no one to help them?

You don't think that this sort of tragedy can be prevented by a properly functioning welfare state?

Show me a properly functioning welfare state please one that does not tax their citizens that make money too much. Show me a welfare state without abuse of the system.

Show me a society where the rich and wealthy don't abuse the system.

Show me a society where many of those who get rich don't do so at the expense of others.

Show me a society where large corporations don't get to where they are without recourse to corruption/influence/"political contributions".

Yes there may be corruption in welfare states and a use of the system (though nowhere near as bad as the free marketeers would have us believe), but if that is the price we pay to avoid tragedies such as this then so be it.

You do have the right to attempt to become rich, we all do, however with that right comes duties and responsibilities for the successful towards those who are in need of support.

I just don't agree with that statement, a welfare state holds people down too much. There is a reason why the Sovjet Union collapsed because there was no reason to innovate no reason to excel. The moment you are in a welfare state you got a similar system where working is only marginally better as living of welfare (welfare gap).

I feel I have absolutely no responsibilities towards anyone as long as i acquired my money the right way (no I am not that rich). I don't agree that I would have to pay for these tragedies. Why don't you set aside double for me (as you like it and I dont). Thing is I hate wealth distribution its just stealing and those in the lower incomes feel the high tax rates more as the rich.

So lets agree to disagree, i seen the problems with welfare back in the Netherlands and the immigrants it attracts. (and lazy native Dutch)

And if you made your money fairly and without resorting to crime and paid your taxes - and then you had it all stolen from you with no means left to employ a lawyer or pay the court fees and no income because the courts had taken your passport to prevent you running away from a spurious criminal case against you being just a tactic of the person who robbed you? Then if there were no system of support what would you do! Things are not always as black and white as all people are on benefits because they are lazy or freeloaders.

I do understand your points about immigrants and people who don't want to work and many other problems with national health systems and the like. But there are solutions to these, unfortunately hampered since you are targeting certain races or types of people and discrimination is a big no no really.

[Bluespunk]

@bluespunk,

Good solution would be that those in favor of welfare have to finance it. Those that are not don't have to pay into it but are also not allowed to use it.

Sounds real fair to me. Then people with high morals like you could support your cause while others who don't see it for a good thing just don't.

Its always easy to tell people what to do but once it cost them money they often change their mind.

Nope.

Awful solution.

[robblok]

@bluespunk,

Good solution would be that those in favor of welfare have to finance it. Those that are not don't have to pay into it but are also not allowed to use it.

Sounds real fair to me. Then people with high morals like you could support your cause while others who don't see it for a good thing just don't.

Its always easy to tell people what to do but once it cost them money they often change their mind.

Nope.

Awful solution.

Of course.. because then it would cost you money instead of deciding how other peoples money has to be spend.

Its always easier to do good and let others pay the bill instead of paying it yourself.

You made my point.. your not willing to finance your idea's but want others to pay for it.

[Bluespunk]

Sorry.. but where I came from the banks were bailed out with a loan of public money and most of it is paid back already. So it does not cost the taxpayer one bit of money. However I condem the greed over there getting bailed out and still getting a bonus. The only reason that they pay it all back so fast where I come from is that as long as there is a loan the state has control and wont allow high bonuses.

Tell me how insurance companies get financed with tax money that is a new one for me (but if they dont do what you paid for take them to court)

And wrong is wrong but that does not matter you have to close your eyes for the problems with the welfare system.

Its like speeding and telling a cop but he speeds too. That is basically your argument. You are saying you can't pick on the welfare systems mistakes because there are other problems too. That is a total non argument.

The police example you made has nothing to do with the abuse of money..

Anyway you have no arguments you know welfare has serious problems and try to deflect the problem.

Problem with welfare is that it is hard to check and it requires a large bureaucratic machine and cost loads of money. Finding freeloaders there is quite easy. They are actually stealing from those who really deserve it.

That is why I will always be for a real basic minimum welfare system.

I have no arguments?

I am trying to deflect the problem?

Don't think so.

I gave you my arguments yesterday and you decided to agree to disagree, so don't give me that please.

My point on insurance companies….read it again and you may get it.

{By the by, who pays for the court system….hmm….}

The bankers who destroyed lives with their corrupt practices paid the money back. That makes it ok does it, steal, manipulate, break the law, but if you mess up we'll sort you out and you can pay us back.

Fine, do the same for those who abuse welfare. That is not an argument that makes the welfare state any less necessary.

The police example is perfectly applicable, when they do wrong, it is an abuse of the system they are supposed to uphold. Law and Order…paid for by public money.

Clear enough for you.

Think you missed the point where i said i condemned their greed about the bankers, but we were talking about public money. So I countered that argument. Never said it was a good thing.

Did not get your insurance system sorry. (courts are paid by the tax payer and those that use it dual finance)

The police you are describing is US police.. and then even a real small part of them. Not going to judge here but some instances they were dead right. Other instances maybe not but if you don't run from them or get violent with them you don't get shot. Not even in the USA.

Nope.

The bankers did wrong. Got caught. Public money bailed them out.

Their wrong doing prior to bail out cost public money. Not many have got that money back.

Their abuse of the system cost the public.

Insurance company refuses to pay because of their abuse of the system.

Public money then required to help those screwed by insurance company.

Go to court to force insurance company to pay. public money funds courts.

The police I am describing are the world over.

Back to topic: A welfare state could have prevented this tragedy.

These people could well be still alive if there was a safety net for them.

Taxes required to do this.

There is no wrong in having a system of support that helps those most in need.

No wrong at all.

There should be a moral obligation on society to provide it.

Not doing so is wrong.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Bluespunk

[robblok]

Sorry.. but where I came from the banks were bailed out with a loan of public money and most of it is paid back already. So it does not cost the taxpayer one bit of money. However I condem the greed over there getting bailed out and still getting a bonus. The only reason that they pay it all back so fast where I come from is that as long as there is a loan the state has control and wont allow high bonuses.

Tell me how insurance companies get financed with tax money that is a new one for me (but if they dont do what you paid for take them to court)

And wrong is wrong but that does not matter you have to close your eyes for the problems with the welfare system.

Its like speeding and telling a cop but he speeds too. That is basically your argument. You are saying you can't pick on the welfare systems mistakes because there are other problems too. That is a total non argument.

The police example you made has nothing to do with the abuse of money..

Anyway you have no arguments you know welfare has serious problems and try to deflect the problem.

Problem with welfare is that it is hard to check and it requires a large bureaucratic machine and cost loads of money. Finding freeloaders there is quite easy. They are actually stealing from those who really deserve it.

That is why I will always be for a real basic minimum welfare system.

I have no arguments?

I am trying to deflect the problem?

Don't think so.

I gave you my arguments yesterday and you decided to agree to disagree, so don't give me that please.

My point on insurance companies….read it again and you may get it.

{By the by, who pays for the court system….hmm….}

The bankers who destroyed lives with their corrupt practices paid the money back. That makes it ok does it, steal, manipulate, break the law, but if you mess up we'll sort you out and you can pay us back.

Fine, do the same for those who abuse welfare. That is not an argument that makes the welfare state any less necessary.

The police example is perfectly applicable, when they do wrong, it is an abuse of the system they are supposed to uphold. Law and Order…paid for by public money.

Clear enough for you.

Think you missed the point where i said i condemned their greed about the bankers, but we were talking about public money. So I countered that argument. Never said it was a good thing.

Did not get your insurance system sorry. (courts are paid by the tax payer and those that use it dual finance)

The police you are describing is US police.. and then even a real small part of them. Not going to judge here but some instances they were dead right. Other instances maybe not but if you don't run from them or get violent with them you don't get shot. Not even in the USA.

Nope.

The bankers did wrong. Got caught. Public money bailed them out.

Insurance company refuses to pay because of their abuse of the system. Public money then required to help those screwed by insurance company.

Go to court to force insurance company to pay. public money funds courts.

The police I am describing are the world over.

Bankers did wrong (and should pay for it financially and criminally ) but in the Netherlands it did not cost the Taxpayer any money. It was a high interest LOAN that bailed them out and its paid back. So in the Netherlands it did not cost taxpayers money. I dont know about other countries.

Insurance company and courts.. where I come from people pay court fees (not sure if it is 100% financed by those fees) and when someone is convicted they (if its asked for by the other party) have to pay the court feels and lawyer cost of the other party.

Police in the Netherlands is not like that.. they are not gung ho cowboys like in the USA. But then again people that don't resist never get shot or abused anyway. Its the attitude and violence that makes that happen.

[robblok]

@blue spunk

A good thing would be free housing and free food (really basic in big buildings made for this). Not giving money of course. This way there would always be food and shelter for people. Just the basics and nothing more.

I can live with that and feel ok paying taxes for it, once it becomes too easy to enter and too good too have you will have abuse. So just the basics.

In this case the family would then have food and shelter. Giving out free money (especially in Thailand where its hard to check if people have money / are making money) would be totally wrong and abused a lot.

Back where I come from where everything is registered its easier to give money but still with some people working without paying taxes they still might have 2 income streams then.