17 foreign ‘English teachers’ arrested in Chiang Mai for working illegally

[micmichd]

I really don't get the point out of this.

You broke a handful of laws, but they still let you go with a modest fee for telling you how to behave next time, and you still complain you were mistreated?

Come on, you feel you're given a privilege because you are a relatively rich Farang.

Now, guess what would happen to a coloured foreigner in your home country. Police would jump on the foreigner, demand his or her papers in the most rude manner you can imagine, eventually beat him or her up, and finally throw the foreigner in the hole.

Edited January 24, 2015 by micmichd

[lostinisaan]

A German and a Dutch chap as 'online' English teachers for Chinese ?

Mind you, I once knew a Scottish chap which was also interesting.

Should I meet you somewhere, I'll hit you with my "Bratwurst" and squeeze "Sauerkraut" all over your face, as a thank you for your post.....

Are you saying that an English guy shouldn't be allowed to teach German, or any other language at a school in the UK, or elsewhere?

I'm German, teaching English, but also German, if needed since ten years. And I truly believe that I'm pretty good at it.

Otherwise the educational area office, where my school belongs to wouldn't choose me to hold seminars for Thai English teachers, school directors,all employees for their department, English camps and more...

My uncle taught English at a well-known high school in Germany, before he became the principal. BTW, English is THE language to communicate in all European countries.

Have you ever been to Holland? Most people in Holland speak a relatively good English, many of them even a third, or fourth language,

Unfortunately, just being a native English speaker doesn't automatically make you to a teacher of English, me thinks.

[micmichd]

All bystanders get traumatized as witnesses, too. And next time they see you coming, they rather attack you before they let you attack one of them. That's the way you create a 'no-go area'.

[rubl]

I don't think anyone in Thailand should be insulted by Bavarian English, German TV viewers are used to Mr Roberto Blanco from Bavarian TV, and his lingo is usually understood in the rest of Germany viewing ARD TV.

I think that apart from a possible accent lots of people like being taught by non-native English speakers as they tend to speak slower and use more simple words.

Just my 2 cents as regular Dutch uncle

Well any teacher who speaks too quickly or uses language that is too advanced shouldn't be a teacher at all, native or not. I've taught in several countries and the basic fact is that if local teachers do not use the language with native speakers on a regular basis, their English skills are not only going to be subpar, they'll likely teach a form of English (or whatever language is being taught) that is very limited in usability. In the US we had a character on a popular show who was a HS Spanish teacher but had such limited skills that it was used for comic effect.

You're almost always better off with native speakers as long as they know how to teach.

My experience as 'teacher' is limited to computer hardware and software product training to National Sales Organisations and a few customers. That's a totally different kettle of fish.

You're absolutely right in saying "as long as they know how to teach.". Mind you the disinterest of pupils is not easily overcome.

[rubl]

A German and a Dutch chap as 'online' English teachers for Chinese ?

Mind you, I once knew a Scottish chap which was also interesting.

Should I meet you somewhere, I'll hit you with my "Bratwurst" and squeeze "Sauerkraut" all over your face, as a thank you for your post.....

Are you saying that an English guy shouldn't be allowed to teach German, or any other language at a school in the UK, or elsewhere?

I'm German, teaching English, but also German, if needed since ten years. And I truly believe that I'm pretty good at it.

Otherwise the educational area office, where my school belongs to wouldn't choose me to hold seminars for Thai English teachers, school directors,all employees for their department, English camps and more...

My uncle taught English at a well-known high school in Germany, before he became the principal. BTW, English is THE language to communicate in all European countries.

Have you ever been to Holland? Most people in Holland speak a relatively good English, many of them even a third, or fourth language,

Unfortunately, just being a native English speaker doesn't automatically make you to a teacher of English, me thinks.

No offence was meant and if ever we meet I'd rather have the 'zuurkool met worst" (as we Dutch call it) on my plate to eat. Will even buy you a beer in return

[micmichd]

You can say 'you' to me, I'm also German. Just born in the British Zone of Germany where my mother worked as a translater for the British Army after WW II, then raised in Holland because my father worked for a Dutch company, and finally returned to the newly founded Federal Republic of Germany. I have grown up muli-lingually from the beginning of my childhood, and right now, I am still German.

Of course, any foreigner should have a right to teach English, because it IS the number 1 language in most countries in the world, as correctly stated. Speaking English fluently is not enough to make a good teacher, though. It also needs didactics, there are courses for this in Europe and, I guess, also in Thailand.

Those 17 workplaces are vacant now, and I guess everyone - including the 17 expelled - can apply for those jobs, provided they have a TEFL license. But with equal qualifications, citizens of the country will always be 1st choice, and non-immigrant Farangs will only be 2nd choice in Thailand. Same would happen to Thais in Germany, not necessarily in the rest of Europe. Germany is nowadays the last European country where two nationalities are not allowed, with the consequence that you need a visa for Thailand once you decided to become German. There are exceptions to this rule, some German ex-Thais managed to get a permit to stay in Thailand, by proceeding their last memory from their home country: their Thai ID card. That's what I'm told, I never queued up in the 'Thai Nationals' queue at airports, so I'm not an eye-witness.

Anybody out there?

[greenchair]

I have never heard of a single person being prosecuted for working illegally in my country.

Any person can come and any job. As long as they are good intentions and honest. Especially if they have families to support. You don't put people in prison for trying to support their families with an honest days work.

[FritsSikkink]

You can work legally in Thailand as an individual over the internet. Lots of people do. As long as you are making money outside of Thailand and are not doing it through a Thai company. I think the problem here is that it was being done through a Thai company.

Nonsense, you need a work permit.

[Derek M]

Working in Thailand without correct visa can occur a maximum fine of 200,000 THB and 5 years in the slammer!

I am lead to believe and most likely 20,000 fine and a slap on wrist

Edited January 24, 2015 by Derek M

[SiSePuede419]

"A German and a Dutch chap as 'online' English teachers....?"

Sure. My friend's Chinese wife taught English in BKK. Claimed she made $30USD/hour.

I'm not sure if that was before or after "grade enhancement" tips, 555.

[Jingthing]

You can work legally in Thailand as an individual over the internet. Lots of people do. As long as you are making money outside of Thailand and are not doing it through a Thai company. I think the problem here is that it was being done through a Thai company.

Nonsense, you need a work permit.

Nonsense. You can't even get one for that. Welcome to GREY AREAS.

[rwdrwdrwd]

FritsSikkink has a habit of repeatedly and consistently interjecting on any discussion around work permits with authoritative sounding clear cut statements referencing the legislation that defines work. The one that is so badly written that it refers to 'working' as a basis for the definition of 'working'. Given it does not actually define working, logically it reduces to either 'any physical or mental activity paid or unpaid', which would include breathing and walking, or to 'we'll determine what is working on a case by case basis':

"Working" means a working by physical strength or knowledge whether or not intended for wages or any other benefits.

Alien Working Act, B.E.2551 (2008) - http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0366.pdf

Previously he has stated that there is no grey area, and that the law is 'clear. Therefore one can only assume that he believes that everybody that comes in to Thailand for any purpose whatsoever requires a work permit as soon as they move beyond border control, unless they are dead.

Luckily most other people live in the real world, understand that laws are sometimes badly written, and understand that it is the interpretation and application that matters, along with guidance via precedent. There is no precedent in Thailand for the case where someone deals exclusively with foreign clients and is renumerated outside of Thailand.

In this instance these teachers were not acting in that manner - they were receiving payment in Thailand (possibly by a registered Thai company, though that is not yet clear), and for that simple fact alone, regardless of whether the company was Thai, it's a clear breach of most countries employment legislation. There are endless examples of people being prosecuted for this both in Thailand and all around the world.

Whatever the outcome (and it sounds like the outcome was a small fine and freedom), this has zero bearing on the entirely different scenario of people that earn money online that are neither dealing with Thai entities nor being paid in Thailand.

In terms of the other countries that the same poster declared would surely deport you, I challenge him to provide one single example of any country anywhere in the world (including Thailand) deporting or prosecuting a non citizen person that works remotely for clients (directly, not via a middleman in the country like these teachers) outside of that country and is paid outside of that country for doing so - not for 'not paying tax' etc - for the act of working without a permit.

Edited January 24, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[marcusd]

If BOI 360 Max Co. is based in Thailand, I can understand, but if not, then this is almost petty. What next checking your work emails in Thailand whilst on holiday or in transit, is working?

Well I think whatever grey exists, and I think there is grey area, by having an established and visible physical office location in Thailand where multiple staffers showed up regularly ... they crossed it.

I have all my earnings in another country. My income comes from there. I use internet to check things. But I do not source solicit or try to get workers in Thailand to do work for me here yet paid from over there.

I have a legal Thai company that earns from my Australian company and the Thais are employed in Thailand paying taxes in Thailand. They are managed and run by fellow Thais. I don't interfere.

I think the English school did something very different. They hired and paid from Thailand, with income earned overseas.

Very naughty indeed.

[marcusd]

I have never heard of a single person being prosecuted for working illegally in my country.

Any person can come and any job. As long as they are good intentions and honest. Especially if they have families to support. You don't put people in prison for trying to support their families with an honest days work.

What country is that?

I know if you work illegal in Many countries you get fined, imprisoned or and deported

[JoeLing]

They were not taking the job of a Thai. They were producing in China and earning roughly 30,000Bt per month. This 30,000 bt being paid from China then gets put back into the Thai economy as they have living expenses. Sounds like a win win situation for Thai economy. Another move without any lateral thinking

So you think Thailand should consider a few thousand baht in to the "locale economy" more

than trade agreements they signed with other countries securing billions of baht worth of

international trade?

Using your expression, I would say: Another move without thinking further then the next bar.

[Jingthing]

I have never heard of a single person being prosecuted for working illegally in my country.

Any person can come and any job. As long as they are good intentions and honest. Especially if they have families to support. You don't put people in prison for trying to support their families with an honest days work.

What country is that?

I know if you work illegal in Many countries you get fined, imprisoned or and deported

Well I don't know about all countries, but let's say an Englishman is staying six months a year in condo in the U.S. on a tourist visa. Let's say he's sitting in his condo and doing some business online that has nothing to do with the U.S. economy. Nobody will care. Nobody should care. It's basically the same thing here unless you get some kind of mean spirited snitch trying to blackmail or make threats. But even then it isn't certain Thai immigration would even do anything about that even if a snitch acted.

[lostinisaan]

A German and a Dutch chap as 'online' English teachers for Chinese ?

Mind you, I once knew a Scottish chap which was also interesting.

Should I meet you somewhere, I'll hit you with my "Bratwurst" and squeeze "Sauerkraut" all over your face, as a thank you for your post.....

Are you saying that an English guy shouldn't be allowed to teach German, or any other language at a school in the UK, or elsewhere?

I'm German, teaching English, but also German, if needed since ten years. And I truly believe that I'm pretty good at it.

Otherwise the educational area office, where my school belongs to wouldn't choose me to hold seminars for Thai English teachers, school directors,all employees for their department, English camps and more...

My uncle taught English at a well-known high school in Germany, before he became the principal. BTW, English is THE language to communicate in all European countries.

Have you ever been to Holland? Most people in Holland speak a relatively good English, many of them even a third, or fourth language,

Unfortunately, just being a native English speaker doesn't automatically make you to a teacher of English, me thinks.

No offence was meant and if ever we meet I'd rather have the 'zuurkool met worst" (as we Dutch call it) on my plate to eat. Will even buy you a beer in return

Hey, I was just joking. And when we meet, I'd consider a proper "Vanilla Fla" as the right welcome drink. And then a beer, or two?.......

[lostinisaan]

Working in Thailand without correct visa can occur a maximum fine of 200,000 THB and 5 years in the slammer!

I am lead to believe and most likely 20,000 fine and a slap on wrist

They'll hopefully wrist on your slap.......

[JoeLing]

I have never heard of a single person being prosecuted for working illegally in my country.

Any person can come and any job. As long as they are good intentions and honest. Especially if they have families to support. You don't put people in prison for trying to support their families with an honest days work.

What country is that?

I know if you work illegal in Many countries you get fined, imprisoned or and deported

Maybe Disneyland?

Can't be, need work permit as a foreigner.

So maybe Sweden or Dreamland?

Anyone is welcomed there and one can do whatever one wants,

without a big fuss

[arunsakda]

Actually Disneyland employs many young people from abroad, who otherwise would not be eligible to work on dodgy study/abroad work programs. As well as other amusement parks, ski resorts, etc.

They end up working for less than minimum wage. Exploited by extemely wealthy Capitalist scum. No worthwile education provided.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited January 24, 2015 by arunsakda

[tetleythedog]

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Those dämned foreigners again.

Yep! Now all they have to do is check the credentials of those teachers who 'create' degrees and are still issued with teacher licences. They would lose thousands!

[bangmai]

meet Sheriff Joe.....I think he is on his sixth term: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/30/nation/la-na-arizona-immigration-raids-20100730

[winstonc]

I don't think the issue here is about whether they were providing services to those outside of Thailand - its actually more to do with immigration seeing you living and "Working" here without contributing to the Thai economy. They want your dollars, so they make it harder for foreigners by enforcing the whole Visa and work permit policies, which is money directly to Thailand, and they assume that you will end up paying tax.

Presumably they don't want thousands of foreigners setting up camp here, working online, but not paying anything in taxes to the Thai Gvt. And that's their prerogative, not matter how irksome it may seem to the foreign contingent. I can actually see their point.

If it was a bunch of people coming and camping in my back yard, and tapping away on laptops - albeit providing services to China, I'd be pretty annoyed, and also - wouldn't relish the thought of another 10,000 people cottoning on to the idea and joining the camp.

not paying taxes everytime they fill up the bike/truck..when there shopping keeping people in work unless everything they eat or wear is flown in,eh...electric bills etc i could go on but they spand money here..even if they are in the wrong..

[Skywalker69]

Those dämned foreigners again.

They worked without a work permit. Is that ok in the country you come from?

We'd give them asylum, a house, car, welfare benefits, voting rights, free healthcare, citizenship...

And thats OK with you?

[Skywalker69]

Those dämned foreigners again.

They worked without a work permit. Is that ok in the country you come from?

By the millions....

And thats OK with you?

[Johnny S]

no one can keep a secret in Thailand.

Sometimes Caucasians forget that they look completely different than all the Thai people around them.

I watch bored Thais track my every move as I walk up and down the street everyday.

I have had total strangers tell me who I was with a month ago.

"i wonder why 17 men get in elevator? They no live here"

why did they work out of one location?

obviously not thinking as they defeated the whole purpose of being on the internet.

They probably forgot to give Riverside Condo Reception their envelope this week

[arthurwait]

vagabondinglife, on 24 Jan 2015 - 00:48, said:

I am very close to one of the teachers, and unsurprisingly, the Bangkok Post got this -completely- wrong.

My friend had a perfectly legal work permit, as did many other teachers. The article points the finger at the foreign teachers as criminal culprits. The company was at fault, promising legal work and then deliberately dragging feet when it came to sorting out the permit paperwork and expense.

The foreigners are not being held. They were released the next morning after a photoshoot with press. This was obviously just a publicity stunt, and of course, lots of 'fines' were paid. Each teacher was even asked for a US $100 'service charge' for such nice treatment in jail.

I don't get this, had the company got your friend and he others work permits or not ?

If the company weren't getting work permits how come your friend had one ?

[connda]

I am very close to one of the teachers, and unsurprisingly, the Bangkok Post got this -completely- wrong.

My friend had a perfectly legal work permit, as did many other teachers. The article points the finger at the foreign teachers as criminal culprits. The company was at fault, promising legal work and then deliberately dragging feet when it came to sorting out the permit paperwork and expense.

The foreigners are not being held. They were released the next morning after a photoshoot with press. This was obviously just a publicity stunt, and of course, lots of 'fines' were paid. Each teacher was even asked for a US $100 'service charge' for such nice treatment in jail.

As I previously noted, you could probably go to 50% of the public and private schools in CM (or Thailand for that matter) and find the same thing. Work permits and visa promised, but deliberate 'foot-dragging' by the employer on processing the necessary paperwork. "You work now, we get you wisa and work permit soon soon".....ad infinatum.

FYI, glad the teachers got out with a light fine. It could have been worse. However, it should be the employer getting the fine for each teacher. If the new PM wants to take the moral high-ground though, he should start addressing the way employers game the work permit system.

[retarius]

Maybe time for Prayrut to announce creation of some sub committees and a crack down on foreigners

[BangkokHank]

I was in Chiang Mai for 4 days a week ago.

It surprised the hell out of me to see white guys cooking pizzas, backpackers doing waitressing and western women conducting tours and selling organic food. But it was happening.

Furthermore, a trip further afield to Pai I found white guys tending bar and cooking steaks.

The police could go out everyday and make 17 random arrests, maybe people should start respecting Thai labour laws?

Or maybe Thai labor laws should start changing - to reflect the new realities of Thailand and the world. For one thing, Thailand has so little unemployment that they have to import labor from the neighboring countries, so protecting Thai jobs is really not an issue. Secondly, as others have pointed out, due to technology, the way we work in the world is changing. Labor laws need to change to reflect that. And thirdly, Thailand is now a middle-income country. So whereas it might not have made sense for most foreigners to consider working here in the past, in many cases it does now. And foreigners working in Thailand can only be a good thing, for a whole host of reasons that I'm sure I don't need to go into here. And it's not like these foreigners are coming here to sponge off of the generous Thai social security system. All people are asking for is the ability to work for a living in the place they want to live. Is that really a crime?

As for the concern about people working without paying taxes on their income: Actually very few Thais pay income tax either. So I guess most taxes are collected in other ways, such as through VAT, import duties and other levies. I know that most of the things that I buy in Thailand are outrageously overpriced compared to elsewhere, and the only explanation I can come up with for the high prices is taxes. (As an example, I wanted to buy some imported brand-name American hiking shoes yesterday, but the ones i wanted cost 7,500 baht in Thailand, whereas the very same shoes cost 3,460 baht in nearby India, and 3,520 baht in the US. [Nowadays, using the internet, is is easy to compare prices for such global products.) What other explanation can there be for this huge price difference other than taxes? The difference is great enough that I could buy a plane ticket to India, buy the shoes, then fly back to Thailand and still come out ahead.) So don't worry too much about corrupt officials not being able to collect enough to taxes to be able to steal themselves rich. Believe me, they are getting their fill - and those of us living in Thailand are paying for it with every single overpriced thing we buy.

Conclusion: When working for a living becomes a crime, the world is in serious trouble.