Officials accused of graft want to know why they were shown the door

[phoenixdoglover]

Read carefully.

NHSO board member Dr Wichai Chokewiwat said the agency, which is under the Public Health Ministry, had been working with the ministry without friction despite personal feuds between Winai and the ministry's former permanent secretary Narong Sahametapat.

"Both the NHSO and the ministry had been working even closer and better after Narong was transferred away to now be an adviser to the PM's Office Ministry," he said

So many members of this forum make a presumption of guilt based on nothing more than the pronouncements by a few officials, with no supporting evidence or actual criminal charges specified. And when one of the allegedly corrupt officials stands up and protests, the assembled members of this forum deride him, because it is their preconceived notion of guilt, based on nothing, which gives some measure of satisfaction.

But what if the due process is sloppy. What if some of these officials are just being punished for nothing more than having offended the wrong people. You know, friends of the PM. Do the good members of TVF, with their accumulated wisdom, think this unlikely in Thailand?

Justice? Meh.

[Always18]

There is no conscience left in a person when morality in him is dead.

................or where there was none to begin with.............

[halloween]

"reasons were not given for the transfers so it is not known what the allegations are."

These people have been deemed to be suspects of unspecified crimes based on unspecified evidence and removed from their positions without due process of law provided by the Organic Laws for Civil Service.

As a minimum the Junta is intimidating civil service into absolute allegence to the Junta in preparation of an elected government that must face an unelected bureaucarcy loyal to the military in their governance of the nation. It matters little to the Junta whether any of the accused are actually guilty of any crimes. It's the indignity people are being put through that is meant to control their future behavior.

If by coincidence crimes are uncovered, all the better. At worst if bureaucrats are returned to the positions after finding no crimes, they will be more compliant to military political policies in the future. These transfers are just another form of "attitude adjustment" but without any specific crime.

Welcome to the Junta's Reform of Justice.

Having a bureaucracy not willing to take illegal orders from criminals sounds like a great idea to me. Or do you thing the rice scam, the G2G, and various other crimes perpetrated against the Thai people went down without the civil service noticing?

[Thaddeus]

We did nothing wrong !,OK but i bet you would not take

a lie detector test,or welcome the tax authority look into

your financial affairs.

regards Worgeordie

A Thai Civil Servant taking a lie detector test, seriously, the poor machine would have a nervous breakdown.

[DDbkh]

Dealing with endemic corruption is a long term problem. It needs a very strong and consistent approach. The initial headline 'wins' will gradually become routine as people understand there's no turning back. In HK, they started in the 70's by cleaning up the police (a much easier task than here).

Soon the stigma of being seen going in or coming out of the anti-corruption office was sufficient to blight anybody's career.

Now I am told it will act against you if you get a 'warm introduction' via a mutual friend to any Govt official.

So it can be done, but some people argue that HK exports corruption to less concerned countries.

Whether or not that is correct, HKs govt offices are now highly efficient with well educated competent staff. They have almost no right of 'discretion' which is the key to eliminating corruption in such govt agencies. You either have the right documents etc or you don't, a small donation won't get around the issue.

If you are on the wrong end of it, it's tedious but infinitely better than what happens here. At least you know that when you get your approval etc it's fully legal and incontrovertible.

Once the current scum heading the Thai govt agencies are weeded out overall improvements can begin but it's a long hard road.

[Artisi]

Cloud Cuckoo Land: Why on earth would you transfer someone before completing the investigation? I can see putting someone on suspension pending results, but not setting them up in a new job.

Obviously the punishment for being found corrupt will be the continuation of the transfer. What does someone have to do to get fired in this country?

Die, and be cremated at the local wat.

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

They were transferred while their cases are investigated!! They were not fired!! Seems more than fair to me. If they are found innocent they will be reinstated.

Why should a public official under investigation for corruption be allowed to remain at their position?

I hope the individuals that are making a stink about this that are found to be guilty will be dealt an even harsher sentence.

[Borzandy]

As they are all corrupted, they would like to know why only them are sacked. Why not all the officials.

[tx22cb]

I think its time to follow China when it comes to graft and corruption

A bullet shot into their heads help to relieve this situation

Are there enough bullets in the armoury?

[Fat Haggis]

"reasons were not given for the transfers so it is not known what the allegations are."

These people have been deemed to be suspects of unspecified crimes based on unspecified evidence and removed from their positions without due process of law provided by the Organic Laws for Civil Service.

As a minimum the Junta is intimidating civil service into absolute allegence to the Junta in preparation of an elected government that must face an unelected bureaucarcy loyal to the military in their governance of the nation. It matters little to the Junta whether any of the accused are actually guilty of any crimes. It's the indignity people are being put through that is meant to control their future behavior.

If by coincidence crimes are uncovered, all the better. At worst if bureaucrats are returned to the positions after finding no crimes, they will be more compliant to military political policies in the future. These transfers are just another form of "attitude adjustment" but without any specific crime.

Welcome to the Junta's Reform of Justice.

Having a bureaucracy not willing to take illegal orders from criminals sounds like a great idea to me. Or do you thing the rice scam, the G2G, and various other crimes perpetrated against the Thai people went down without the civil service noticing?

So if YOU were suddenly suspended from your place of work, without any reason given, you'd be perfectly fine with that?

[elgordo38]

I've personally witnessed the transfer of one official. What this means is that they are reduced to receiving only their base salary which does not afford them the luxury they formerly enjoyed. This particular individual has had to liquidate all his assets just to survive, and the banks are repossessing his cars.

This would be GREAT if they didn't fill the vacuum with another official, a member of the "correct party affiliation," who resumes collecting his graft.

The only solution is to develop a "wrongness meter" to gauge the amount of wrong certain parties are producing. As corruption is rampant I guess it must be a corruption meter. The more corrupt go out to the hinterland to toil. The less corrupt stay close to the action to share in the spoils. As politics change here so must ones allegiance. Its all a matter of staying on the winning side.

[lucky11]

Surely they have the right to at least know what they are accused of ???

I think a majority of them know actually.

They wouldn't have been removed from office without there being hard evidence.

If any of them have been transferred whereby they have done nothing wrong then they will get their jobs back - seems fair to me!!

[quandow]

And the replacements, are they same level of corruption, (but just better connected to the power

structure,) or will thee be a genuine change.

Like I previously posted, the BiB's who paid homage to the old regime (and in return got paid graft) are being demoted to base pay only, and the new BiB's who belong to the current "cool kids club" have replaced them and are now receiving the graft.

This is the way it always has been and always will be until you replace the entire ruling class. There are too many puppeteers pulling the strings behind the scenes to ever let that happen.

[halloween]

"reasons were not given for the transfers so it is not known what the allegations are."

These people have been deemed to be suspects of unspecified crimes based on unspecified evidence and removed from their positions without due process of law provided by the Organic Laws for Civil Service.

As a minimum the Junta is intimidating civil service into absolute allegence to the Junta in preparation of an elected government that must face an unelected bureaucarcy loyal to the military in their governance of the nation. It matters little to the Junta whether any of the accused are actually guilty of any crimes. It's the indignity people are being put through that is meant to control their future behavior.

If by coincidence crimes are uncovered, all the better. At worst if bureaucrats are returned to the positions after finding no crimes, they will be more compliant to military political policies in the future. These transfers are just another form of "attitude adjustment" but without any specific crime.

Welcome to the Junta's Reform of Justice.

Having a bureaucracy not willing to take illegal orders from criminals sounds like a great idea to me. Or do you thing the rice scam, the G2G, and various other crimes perpetrated against the Thai people went down without the civil service noticing?

So if YOU were suddenly suspended from your place of work, without any reason given, you'd be perfectly fine with that?

"You have been accused of corruption and initial investigations justify the accusation." Is that not a valid reason for suspension? You did notice that most are still being paid?

If I was innocent, I wouldn't be "happy" but would prefer to be investigated and cleared. OTOH, I doubt that is the case here.

Edited June 27, 2015 by halloween

[khunken]

This is a typical case of damned if you do & damned if you don't.

The anti-junta whingers have previously had a field day pontificating about the failures of the junta - deck chairs & lottery being main targets.

Well they have gone a long way to resolving the lottery overcharging - which means far more to Thais than Farangs - and now they are targeting corruption big time. It'll never be totally eradicated here or in any country but this is a good start, following the CSD head & his cronies' removal.

It seems too obvious for some that the first step in a corruption investigation is to remove those that can balk it. I hope there is more of this to come.

[wabothai]

"reasons were not given for the transfers so it is not known what the allegations are."

These people have been deemed to be suspects of unspecified crimes based on unspecified evidence and removed from their positions without due process of law provided by the Organic Laws for Civil Service.

As a minimum the Junta is intimidating civil service into absolute allegence to the Junta in preparation of an elected government that must face an unelected bureaucarcy loyal to the military in their governance of the nation. It matters little to the Junta whether any of the accused are actually guilty of any crimes. It's the indignity people are being put through that is meant to control their future behavior.

If by coincidence crimes are uncovered, all the better. At worst if bureaucrats are returned to the positions after finding no crimes, they will be more compliant to military political policies in the future. These transfers are just another form of "attitude adjustment" but without any specific crime.

Welcome to the Junta's Reform of Justice.

Having a bureaucracy not willing to take illegal orders from criminals sounds like a great idea to me. Or do you thing the rice scam, the G2G, and various other crimes perpetrated against the Thai people went down without the civil service noticing?

So if YOU were suddenly suspended from your place of work, without any reason given, you'd be perfectly fine with that?

The problem Haggis is that a possible crime has been committed. If there was one they probably didn't even know it. Of course they have the right to hear the reasoning.

[impulse]

This is a typical case of damned if you do & damned if you don't.

The anti-junta whingers have previously had a field day pontificating about the failures of the junta - deck chairs & lottery being main targets.

I'm actually favorably impressed by what I've seen from the junta---so far--, but I think it will be years (if ever) before we know if they're really rooting out corruption, or just purging political enemies in favor of their friends and family.

[Thai at Heart]

Surely they have the right to at least know what they are accused of ???

Not anymore. Question undoubtedly would be, "why me?". 71. That's it?

[The Deerhunter]

This is what they do BEFORE they actually have evidence.

This is also what it means to live under a military government and article 44.

Welcome to your new life as a Thai citizen.

Any excuse to try & stick one on the people trying to bring happiness to Thailand.

I refer you to replies 5, 11, 12 & 13.

[The Deerhunter]

"reasons were not given for the transfers so it is not known what the allegations are."

These people have been deemed to be suspects of unspecified crimes based on unspecified evidence and removed from their positions without due process of law provided by the Organic Laws for Civil Service.

As a minimum the Junta is intimidating civil service into absolute allegence to the Junta in preparation of an elected government that must face an unelected bureaucarcy loyal to the military in their governance of the nation. It matters little to the Junta whether any of the accused are actually guilty of any crimes. It's the indignity people are being put through that is meant to control their future behavior.

If by coincidence crimes are uncovered, all the better. At worst if bureaucrats are returned to the positions after finding no crimes, they will be more compliant to military political policies in the future. These transfers are just another form of "attitude adjustment" but without any specific crime.

Welcome to the Junta's Reform of Justice.

Having a bureaucracy not willing to take illegal orders from criminals sounds like a great idea to me. Or do you thing the rice scam, the G2G, and various other crimes perpetrated against the Thai people went down without the civil service noticing?

So if YOU were suddenly suspended from your place of work, without any reason given, you'd be perfectly fine with that?

Suspended (as in without pay????) or merely transferred while investigations continue? Of course they will all say "I'm innocent."

[waitforusalso]

They should've thrown out those red shirts from their closets a bit faster!

[Fat Haggis]

That's not answering the question deerhunter, that's answering it from their perspective, how would you feel if it was YOU who was suspended without any reason?

How would you react if you were still suspended and accused of something you didn't do? You'd be like everyone else who has done nothing wrong, you'd be irate!!

Those who have participated will keep quiete I've seen this a million times, mass punishments seldom work, it just alienates people, happend on my contract today infect.

Accusations flying, tempers rose, totally counterproductive. The guilty will know themselves and will say nothing, and the innocent will vent their anger and frustrations, it's simple human nature that's all.

[chrisinth]

Surely they have the right to at least know what they are accused of ???

I agree with that. Every single one of them should be allowed to here what they are accused of and have the right to a defence. In a court of law instead of just being canned.

Further, the public should know what the charges are if only to assess how much of their money went to the bank accounts of those accused for alleged corruption.

If the current junta are going to make a statement by clamping down, then please don't go at it half-heartedly. If they are serious about change, then use the law to its limit against these Meng Saap.

If guilty...................

[halloween]

Surely they have the right to at least know what they are accused of ???

I agree with that. Every single one of them should be allowed to here what they are accused of and have the right to a defence. In a court of law instead of just being canned.

Further, the public should know what the charges are if only to assess how much of their money went to the bank accounts of those accused for alleged corruption.

If the current junta are going to make a statement by clamping down, then please don't go at it half-heartedly. If they are serious about change, then use the law to its limit against these Meng Saap.

If guilty...................

They are accused of corruption in office. And if you had read the OP to the final line "It would be verdicts to be made through court trials that would eventually hand the judgements," he added.

Further, they haven't been charged with anything, yet. They have been transferred or suspended pending FURTHER investigation after initial investigation found it warranted.

What is half-hearted about 71 people being investigated? How many corrupt bureaucrats did Chalerm the corruption man unearth, any?

[sweatalot]

And the replacements, are they same level of corruption, (but just better connected to the power

structure,) or will thee be a genuine change.

You are not believing that right and good intentions could exist, do you?

[aeclubwoi]

Thank you for this article, I understand that now my Thailand's fix things may look complicated, but will be better soon.

[gemguy]

Hmmmmm.......

Some of them could actually be somewhat innocent??........but not without fault for the part they played.

Meantime, in the history of Thailand, has there ever been a case where a government official exposed of wrong doing has outright admitted any wrong doing and or voluntarily stepped down ...and or apologized for their malfeasance....ever????

I am thinking if they do not publicly protest their removal from office then they lose all the more face so protesting and never admitting anything is all part of the self serving act that must be upheld...... regardless of the truth.

I surmise that they believe any good that they did perform and or any support and admiration they have garnered over the years supersedes any of their corruptness or malfeasance or any out right criminal actions perpetrated on their part during their tenure.

More or less like giving themselves a slap on the back and seeking admiration for reporting a robbery when they are the one that set up the robbery for insurance claims purposes........but then they are exposed ...and then blame the robbers they arranged to rob the business to collect the insurance money....while never admitting they dreamed up the scam in the first place.

Cheers

Edited June 27, 2015 by gemguy

[AZBill]

I'm sure they can come work here for the IRS!

[robblok]

That's not answering the question deerhunter, that's answering it from their perspective, how would you feel if it was YOU who was suspended without any reason?

How would you react if you were still suspended and accused of something you didn't do? You'd be like everyone else who has done nothing wrong, you'd be irate!!

Those who have participated will keep quiete I've seen this a million times, mass punishments seldom work, it just alienates people, happend on my contract today infect.

Accusations flying, tempers rose, totally counterproductive. The guilty will know themselves and will say nothing, and the innocent will vent their anger and frustrations, it's simple human nature that's all.

Haggis, you seem to miss the point, they are just taken out of the office so an investigation can be done to either clear their name or find evidence against then.

In a later stage if there is evidence it will be presented to them and they can defend against it in a court.

Could you tell me if in your beloved UK they transfer people out during investigations and can you also tell me if the police always tells the suspects what evidence they already have and what they are looking for or do they keep their mouth shut and do their investigation and only talk when needed to keep the advantage.

Your remark of being angry when innocent is true.. id go crazy if something like that happened but would accept it and not worry because I know nothing could be found. People react different to this some who are guilty would act innocent with all the skills of an Oscar winner.

[teacher0826]

OK Mr. Pm now go after the Immigrations department, or do they have too much power for you to stop the corruption?