Is The Writing Really On The Wall?

[thaigene2]

I'm not a professional pollster so there are probably flaws with this. It is also not a criticism of Thailand's Immigration rules. It's an attempt to find out the level of concern (if any) of foreigners living here and married to Thais about their future status in the Kingdom, especially given the recently announced changes to visa rules.

Hope it provides some insight.

TG2

[Thumchok]

I'm not a professional pollster so there are probably flaws with this. It is also not a criticism of Thailand's Immigration rules. It's an attempt to find out the level of concern (if any) of foreigners living here and married to Thais about their future status in the Kingdom, especially given the recently announced changes to visa rules.

Hope it provides some insight.

TG2

I am not really sure how it will effect me , as I intend to marry next year and hold a current work permit outside the country , and spend 27 days in the country then 29 days out .

I am sure that it is to give them an angle to weed out some undesireables , and I cannot blame them for that .

I think those in positions similar to mine will not be too worried .

Schoolteachers without work permits may need to start .

[desmond]

I am getting the yearly extension with the 400k each year. So I don't think this will affect me in any way

[baboon]

Being married but only able to show 400k in the bank every year, seems I will be out soon. Thanks Government for the warning I did not recieve.I suppose I will just have to make the best of it, try and get the wife to the UK, [really looking forward to that] and try to save enough to resettle to a country who does not keep moving the goalposts every 5 minutes.

Sorry to sound bitter but I am. House bought, legal marriage, regular blood donor, volentary English teacher no criminal record, no burden to the Thai taxpayer clearly not enough anymore. What the crap more can they expect from us?

Once booted out, I will never return and will advise anyone I meet not to come here and waste their money. Best of luck to you others out there in a similar predicament, and thanks in advance for the inevitable "you are just the kind of crap Thailand is trying to get rid of" posts.

[thaigene2]

Best of luck to you others out there in a similar predicament, and thanks in advance for the inevitable "you are just the kind of crap Thailand is trying to get rid of" posts.

I don't think you'll get many of those Baboon.

[Buckwheat]

Being married but only able to show 400k in the bank every year, seems I will be out soon. Thanks Government for the warning I did not recieve.I suppose I will just have to make the best of it, try and get the wife to the UK, [really looking forward to that] and try to save enough to resettle to a country who does not keep moving the goalposts every 5 minutes.

Sorry to sound bitter but I am. House bought, legal marriage, regular blood donor, volentary English teacher no criminal record, no burden to the Thai taxpayer clearly not enough anymore. What the crap more can they expect from us?

Once booted out, I will never return and will advise anyone I meet not to come here and waste their money. Best of luck to you others out there in a similar predicament, and thanks in advance for the inevitable "you are just the kind of crap Thailand is trying to get rid of" posts.

Well said....you speak for many.

[thaigene2]

I am getting the yearly extension with the 400k each year. So I don't think this will affect me in any way

Desmond

My understanding is that you will not be able to renew using the 400 K rules. You need to show a monthly income of 40,000 baht under the new rules. For most that means either a foreign monthly pension or interest/investment returns that will always be more than 40,000 per month. Think you could also set up a standing order from your homecountry bank account to wire you 41,000 baht per month. But for most people that would drain their savings pretty fast.

It seems the idea is to force those who are trying to live here with their Thai wife and kids and derive an income locally to either stop doing so or drain their bank accounts back home by bringing it into Thailand and spending it here.

Baboon's point above pretty much sums it up. I've tried again here:

1. You can marry one of our women.

2. You can have kids here who will be granted Thai citizenship.

3. You can buy a house (in her name) and/or a condo in your name (as long as you bring all your savings over to do so - because you can no longer get a Thai bank)

4. You can't get a job here, except in a few limited areas of work - and now only if you can PROVE a monthly salary from the company - 'freelance consultant', and maybe even 'freelance journalist' is not considered an occupation any more, and in any event you need to prove the regular minimum monthly earning - hard to do if you're a contractor.

5. At present, you can simply 'prove' your monthly income by simply swearing an oath to such at your own embassy then presenting this to immigration for the O Visa extension - no bank statements required - how long before that little loophole is closed?

6. You can't live here year-round with your Thai wife and kids unless you can prove the 40,000 rule

7. As for 6 above, you also can't live in your condo all year round either (or the house you bought your wife with your life savings) unless you prove the 40,000 rule.

8. However...you can continue to come here and spend your life savings though..just please do so in short 90 day bursts.

I may be wrong, but that seems to be the way it's been explained as I understand it. If you don't qualify for a legal job here and you don't have enough off-shore income to bring a minimum of 40,000 baht into Thailand you cannot live here year round. As for your Thai wife and kids? I wonder if anyone other than us cares..makes me wonder anyway. Glad I have a work permit - for the moment!

[rcm]

I am getting the yearly extension with the 400k each year. So I don't think this will affect me in any way

Desmond

My understanding is that you will not be able to renew using the 400 K rules. You need to show a monthly income of 40,000 baht under the new rules.

Huh? Did i miss something here? I thought 400k were sufficient for the extension (Type O non immigrant based on marriage) OR 40k/month .

Can you verify this ? Sunbelt or Lopburi?

Thanks,

rcm

[Crossy]

Huh? Did i miss something here? I thought 400k were sufficient for the extension (Type O non immigrant based on marriage) OR 40k/month .

Can you verify this ? Sunbelt or Lopburi?

Yep, afraid you missed something

Lots of posts by Sunbelt confirming the removal of the 400k option for a marriage extension (including the actual text of the new rules)

BUT

Baboon will be OK, the 400k requirement is being grandfathered, if you're already in the system doing extensions like tha you are OK and can continue

Edited October 8, 2006 by Crossy

[drummer]

Re the 3rd question ... It is my understanding that the first and third option are very much related.... Low lifes are those without much money, de facto. They have no money because they are low lifes - It is karma and merit at work.

[rcm]

Huh? Did i miss something here? I thought 400k were sufficient for the extension (Type O non immigrant based on marriage) OR 40k/month .

Can you verify this ? Sunbelt or Lopburi?

Yep, afraid you missed something

Lots of posts by Sunbelt confirming the removal of the 400k option for a marriage extension (including the actual text of the new rules)

BUT

Baboon will be OK, the 400k requirement is being grandfathered, if you're already in the system doing extensions like tha you are OK and can continue

Ok, my extension was also done with the 400 k the last time, so i will be ok to go on then .....i guess for now , until it changes.

[samran]

There seems to be a significant concession so far as I can see, that if your house hold income (ie from either you or your wife) exceeds 40K, then that can be used as evidence.

This is a big change from previously where it was down to the male spouse to front up all the cash.

So you could have the hubby earning 30K per month and you can sent the wifey out for the other 10K. Or she can do all the work! Seems fairer to me

[baboon]

Baboon will be OK, the 400k requirement is being grandfathered, if you're already in the system doing extensions like tha you are OK and can continue

Thing is, I wont. I am here on a multiple entry o, which counts me out. [Not trying to take it out on you, Crossy.]

[bdenner]

Not many comments compared to the number of votes, I guess this subject has been thrashed to death.

I'll show concern about our future in Thailand when TW gets wind of some serious regulation changes that directly effects her (and her families) well being. She has some well placed contacts who have assured her that all is well for farang bread winners towing the line.

[mijan24]

There seems to be a significant concession so far as I can see, that if your house hold income (ie from either you or your wife) exceeds 40K, then that can be used as evidence.

This is a big change from previously where it was down to the male spouse to front up all the cash.

So you could have the hubby earning 30K per month and you can sent the wifey out for the other 10K. Or she can do all the work! Seems fairer to me

Samran i must have missed this little tidbit could you provide a link please. i do not doubt you, would just like to peruse so it can soak in, especially the part where 400000 superceded by monthly reuirement of 40000.

Have no problem with the 40000 as long as it only rises as per cpi not as per a whim of some aspiring young colt/filly.

Edited October 9, 2006 by mijan24

[Crossy]

Thing is, I wont. I am here on a multiple entry o, which counts me out. [Not trying to take it out on you, Crossy.]

Sorry mate I read your post to mean that you are currently using the 400k

Have a word with KL before your current stay expires, they may still be doing multi entry non-o's.

[Casanundra]

I went along to renew my annual visa the other day showing sufficient funds for a marriage visa (as I normally do) only to be informed that as of 1st October I now also need to show a stipend of 40,000 baht per month as family income because the showing of funds was insufficient. The reason for this request is well known of course because it is designed to stop those borrowing money for a short time from doing so to hoodwink the immigration bureau, however what this new rules has done is to make it harder for the legitimate owners of such funds to continue to stay in Thailand and if like me you keep 1.5 million baht in your Thai account at all times, it can be a little frustrating and disconcerting because why the hel_l should I bring more money in, especially as my annual costs are around 485k THB. This new income rule, states that it has to be either earned by the wife or by myself or jointly. If the source of the funds is from Thailand then it needs to be supported with either a paid up tax receipt and/or work permit for the foreign husband. However if the income is earned outside of Thailand then a letter from my embassy confirming where my salary is coming from and confirming that I do indeed bring in 40,000 baht per month to support my family is required. All well and fine, however, what if like me and the several thousand others who are currently too young to retire but who don’t necessarily need to work because they are self sufficient and do not need to do so. How are we supposed to show income to satisfy Thai immigration requirements? For me to show the embassy my offshore earnings as well as to get them to certify that my funds offshore funds are genuine would require a huge leap of faith and trust from both me and them to certify my claims (thus defeating the whole object in the first place or is Thailand encouraging me to become a huge fat liar) also by creating some form of visibility of funds it would also mean my wavering or contravening my rights to privacy under both European and USA laws. The argument then is that I should work here or provide a way for my wife to earn 40,000 baht per month to show as income but let me ask, how many educated MBA Thai’s like my wife actually have the opportunity to earn a decent salary here in Thailand when the average salary for professional educated and qualified workers is 15,000 baht. So perhaps I should work instead, but had anyone looked at the Thai employment market lately? Please explain to me how a highly educated and experienced foreigner in Thailand is able to get a job outside the English teacher profession; and let’s face it, not all of us want to be an English teacher; when all of the normal professional job advertisements in my field are for Thai citizens only. This leaves me with the option of investing in a business here but as Thailand has currently limited foreign investments to the point of taking the money but asking the foreigner ‘to please wait outside’ then this no longer becomes a viable option either. I did want to buy a new Condo for my family but as this also gives me no rights to stay in Thailand then the question of ‘why bother’ came to mind and obtaining a new visa based on an investment that way instead has also just moved to a new requirement of 10 million baht as a minimum investment too. So now I am in a dilemma because the Thai government in its drive to rid itself of the undesirables has also created a whole new string of casualties by turning away the decent foreign folk of Thailand as well. Hasn’t the Thai government realized that they are also letting their own citizens down with these new rules because it is also sending out a very clear message that should a Thai citizen decide to marry a foreigner then they too are also putting themselves at considerable risk and indeed they are effectively being abandoned by their own country for their decision to fall in love with a foreigner. I wonder how many absent foreign fathers or divorces it will take with its inevitable downstream impact before Thailand wakes up and realizes that it’s not only hurting its own sons and daughters but its economy too. Do they care? It’s time for Thailand to wake up, we are living in the 21st century after all and if they continue to do things this way then don’t be too surprised when the tourist planes start passing over the new airport stacked full of foreigners off in search of more foreign friendly lands (like Vietnam and Malaysia). Now will the 10 year old child that came up with these new visa rules please come to my house and explain to my wife why her husband won’t be allowed to stay around and has suddenly decided to take his prescence and money elsewhere

Edited October 9, 2006 by Casanundra

[wpcoe]

Baboon will be OK, the 400k requirement is being grandfathered, if you're already in the system doing extensions like tha you are OK and can continue

I went along to renew my annual visa the other day showing sufficient funds for a marriage visa (as I normally do) only to be informed that as of 1st October I now also need to show a stipend of 40,000 baht per month as family income because the showing of funds was insufficient.

If I'm reading Casanundra correctly, he's saying that for a renewal (i.e. already in the system prior to October 1) he needs to show B40,000 monthly income in addition to meeting the B400,000 bank balance.

I'm reading Casanundra's sentence I quoted to mean: "I now also need to show a stipend of 40,000 baht per month as family income because the [mere] showing of funds was insufficient," and not "...because the showing of funds was insufficient [i.e. not up to the B400,000 level]."

[cockneyrebel]

Being married but only able to show 400k in the bank every year, seems I will be out soon. Thanks Government for the warning I did not recieve.I suppose I will just have to make the best of it, try and get the wife to the UK, [really looking forward to that] and try to save enough to resettle to a country who does not keep moving the goalposts every 5 minutes.

Sorry to sound bitter but I am. House bought, legal marriage, regular blood donor, volentary English teacher no criminal record, no burden to the Thai taxpayer clearly not enough anymore. What the crap more can they expect from us?

Once booted out, I will never return and will advise anyone I meet not to come here and waste their money. Best of luck to you others out there in a similar predicament, and thanks in advance for the inevitable "you are just the kind of crap Thailand is trying to get rid of" posts.

do not think you need to worry i believe the 40k a month only applies to new marriage visa's , but if you do need to show 40k a month going into a bank account you do not need to show 400'00 in an account , so why do you not open another bank account and pay 40k a month into it if you have other income to live on , you can then take the 40k back out over 2 or 3 trips to a atm for living expenses but pay it back into your old account , then you would only need to hold about 80k in the bank the rest could get sent some where to earn some interest, hope this makes sense to you

[Crossy]

I went along to renew my annual visa the other day showing sufficient funds for a marriage visa (as I normally do) only to be informed that as of 1st October I now also need to show a stipend of 40,000 baht per month................Now will the 10 year old child that came up with these new visa rules please come to my house and explain to my wife why her husband won’t be allowed to stay around and has suddenly decided to take his prescence and money elsewhere

According to the rules, the 400k requirement is grandfathered, PM Sunbelt this should be no problem in your case.

[thaihome]

I went along to renew my annual visa the other day showing sufficient funds for a marriage visa (as I normally do) only to be informed that as of 1st October I now also need to show a stipend of 40,000 baht per month as family income because the showing of funds was insufficient. .......

So if I understand what you are saying is you actually have an income, offshore, of over 40k a month but are unwilling, on only principle of course, to go to your embassy and have them notarize a statement to that effect (at least for US, you will not be required to show any proof, only affirm your statements are true). Because of this "principle" you are willing to throw your entire family into turmoil.

Does that about sum it up?

TH

[Casanundra]

I went along to renew my annual visa the other day showing sufficient funds for a marriage visa (as I normally do) only to be informed that as of 1st October I now also need to show a stipend of 40,000 baht per month as family income because the showing of funds was insufficient. .......

So if I understand what you are saying is you actually have an income, offshore, of over 40k a month but are unwilling, on only principle of course, to go to your embassy and have them notarize a statement to that effect (at least for US, you will not be required to show any proof, only affirm your statements are true). Because of this "principle" you are willing to throw your entire family into turmoil.

Does that about sum it up?

TH

Not exactly... as I am actually playing devils advocate as I actually have a WP and contract here but I was relying on using the marriage visa as a fall back position. But what i am really saying is that for someone who 'already' has 1.5 million Thai baht in an account here in Thailand, why on earth should I be forced to bring in 40k baht per month on top of that as well because by doing so, it would not only mean paying tax on it (because it is earning tax free right now) as well as have it subject it to an exchange rates too therefore meaning that the 40k in all reality turns out to be nearer 45k per month.

The UK embassy isn't quite as (erhum) 'trusting' as the USA embassy seems to be and requires more substantial evidence.

In all honesty, should I find myself in need of having to do this, I will just transfer each month 40K from my thai bank account into my wifes account for a few years thus 'showing' salary as being earned by her. Pay 2700 baht per month for the privaledge and have done with it.

[PeaceBlondie]

Pardon me if I'm hijacking this thread, but there are a few men here who are in long-term relationships with Thai men (mine is over 35 years old), and I'm concerned that after they come for the Jews and the gypsies and the farang men married to Thai women, they may come for the homosexuals, figuratively speaking.

I'm fine for now, because I can prove pension income well in excess of 67K per month, and it's no problem to have an extra 200K in a Thai bank, if the immigration officer just wants to see an emergency cushion of baht. But if they double the amounts, or if they move the goalposts in some other manner, I'm in trouble.

Are there very many farang men who are in marriage-less long term relationships with Thai women, and they refuse to get married even for visa purposes?

I do see some writing on the wall, really. Quite likely, the immigration officers on the ground, who theoretically have individual discretion in these matters, will yield to common sense. Maybe this flood of bad news from the government will fade in November or January. Still, the writing on the wall seems to clearly say, "Farang, go home soon, please!"

[thaigene2]

Hasn’t the Thai government realized that they are also letting their own citizens down with these new rules because it is also sending out a very clear message that should a Thai citizen decide to marry a foreigner then they too are also putting themselves at considerable risk and indeed they are effectively being abandoned by their own country for their decision to fall in love with a foreigner.

They probably thought about it. Probably in much the same way they "thought about" improving the education system so that smart-but-poor kids could compete with their dumb-but-rich kids in university. Thailand didn't care about the inequities faced by my wife before - think they care about her now? Still a bit of noise wouldn't hurt. If we weren't under restrictions regarding demonstrations, I'd say the best advocacy would come from a "Mia-Farang Campaign". You know, kind of a Wok-banging demonstration..like they have in Hong Kong. Maybe later.

I wonder how many absent foreign fathers or divorces it will take with its inevitable downstream impact before Thailand wakes up and realizes that it’s not only hurting its own sons and daughters but its economy too. Do they care?

As above. But I agree they ought to care to the extent that this could damage WTO ambitions.

[thaihome]

I wonder how many absent foreign fathers or divorces it will take with its inevitable downstream impact before Thailand wakes up and realizes that it’s not only hurting its own sons and daughters but its economy too. Do they care?

As above. But I agree they ought to care to the extent that this could damage WTO ambitions.

Duh, Thailand has been a member of the WTO for over 10 years.

When you will people understand, you make no difference to the overall economy. it is way bigger then that. It will go on without you and no one except your direct beneficaries will notice you are not contributing.

TH

[drummer]

Are there very many farang men who are in marriage-less long term relationships with Thai women, and they refuse to get married even for visa purposes?

I would expect so, yes. I'm not sure how many, but I would guesstimate it to be a pretty high percentage.

[drummer]

When you will people understand, you make no difference to the overall economy. it is way bigger then that. It will go on without you and no one except your direct beneficaries will notice you are not contributing.

TH

Well, lets crunch the numbers. Given the figure of 500,000 long stay tourists (an underestimation) and an average income of 20,000 THB/month (another underestimation) you have 120.000.000.000 THB per year economic impact. Thats about $3.2 billion dollars/year. (or about 1,700 THB for each and every Thai man, woman and child in Thailand)

According to the CIA World Factbook, Thailands GDP is

GDP (purchasing power parity):

$560.7 billion (2005 est.)

GDP (official exchange rate):

$183.9 billion (2005 est.)

giving longstay tourists ... (and longstay tourists ONLY, not real tourists) a .5% stake of Thailand's economic ativity.

I am not an economist, but I'll wager that that is a heck ofa lot bigger than you thought it was. If this change is reflected in the THB, then it would drop to 35.6 THB/Dollar. That's at least noticable, isn't it?

Also, the fact of the matter is that a lot of this actually comes from overseas ... much like the money in my pocket right now. Most of the rest of it goes for English teachers and import/exporters. I would doubt if bar owners broke 1%. This means that this is not 'instead of' activity, but a full addition.

While this contribution is nothing compared to the 1% or so of the Thais that own just about everything, its pretty big for the rest that don't.

[baboon]

Thing is, I wont. I am here on a multiple entry o, which counts me out. [Not trying to take it out on you, Crossy.]

Sorry mate I read your post to mean that you are currently using the 400k

Have a word with KL before your current stay expires, they may still be doing multi entry non-o's.

Cheers, Crossy, will do, However luckily I still have about 9 months left on my existing visa

do not think you need to worry i believe the 40k a month only applies to new marriage visa's , but if you do need to show 40k a month going into a bank account you do not need to show 400'00 in an account , so why do you not open another bank account and pay 40k a month into it if you have other income to live on , you can then take the 40k back out over 2 or 3 trips to a atm for living expenses but pay it back into your old account , then you would only need to hold about 80k in the bank the rest could get sent some where to earn some interest, hope this makes sense to you

You make a fair point, Cockney, but the Embassy will not give me a letter based on that idea. Thanks for trying to help though.

Edited October 9, 2006 by baboon

[thaihome]

When you will people understand, you make no difference to the overall economy. it is way bigger then that. It will go on without you and no one except your direct beneficaries will notice you are not contributing.

TH

Well, lets crunch the numbers. Given the figure of 500,000 long stay tourists (an underestimation) and an average income of 20,000 THB/month (another underestimation) you have 120.000.000.000 THB per year economic impact. Thats about $3.2 billion dollars/year. (or about 1,700 THB for each and every Thai man, woman and child in Thailand)

According to the CIA World Factbook, Thailands GDP is

GDP (purchasing power parity):

$560.7 billion (2005 est.)

GDP (official exchange rate):

$183.9 billion (2005 est.)

giving longstay tourists ... (and longstay tourists ONLY, not real tourists) a .5% stake of Thailand's economic ativity.

I am not an economist, but I'll wager that that is a heck ofa lot bigger than you thought it was. If this change is reflected in the THB, then it would drop to 35.6 THB/Dollar. That's at least noticable, isn't it?

Also, the fact of the matter is that a lot of this actually comes from overseas ... much like the money in my pocket right now. Most of the rest of it goes for English teachers and import/exporters. I would doubt if bar owners broke 1%. This means that this is not 'instead of' activity, but a full addition.

While this contribution is nothing compared to the 1% or so of the Thais that own just about everything, its pretty big for the rest that don't.

The only number I doubt is the your so called underestimated 500,000 long term tourist. Some how I have trouble visualzing that one. And maybe your calculation of this causing a drop in baht. What is that formula?

On second thought, don't bother, it is probably better for you to go thinking Thailand needs you...

TH

[lukamar]

When they doubled the marriage visa requirements overnight a few years ago I decided that it could happen again and leave me out in the cold. I decided that I had to cover my own families ass and do something. It took me 10 months, away from my wife, to get her permanent resident visa for Canada. She will get her Canadian Citizenship next summer and then we are free to move back to Thailand knowing that we can depart as a family if the need arises.

Thailand has one of the strangest visa policies I have come across. Permanent residence or citizenship in Thailand is like a carrot and stick, you can see it but the chances of getting it are few and far between.

There is a definite concern in the married community that the new ruling will cause all sorts of problems and I feel it will. Some comment that if you can't afford to live in Thailand move on. Well I have this to say to you, when they change your visa requirements and you no longer qualify, remember your stand on this issue and move on.

Like a lot of people here I have income outside of Thailand and also outside of Canada. The Canadian Embassy isn't going to stipulate income from these other offshore sources and so I may not qualify next time I apply, although I have the income I may not be able to prove it to everyones satisfaction. I'm pushing 60, I don't work in Canada so I defiantly don't want to work in Thailand and i don't want my wife to work either. I can get a retirement visa, given the current rules, but who is to say that they won't change those in a month.

My wife even commented that maybe we should just sell out of Thailand and remain living in Canada or find somewhere else. The other day she was looking at retirement options in South America and the Caribbean.

The idea of demonstrations by a bunch of angry wok toting Thai woman would and should scare the hel_l out of the immigration police. The visualization certainly does me.