Silent Final Consonants

[Plotholes]

I would like to ask if there are any rules involved for assigning the silent final consonants or are they purely memory work.

Examples

เปอร์เซ็นต์ (percent)

อาจารย์ (aajaan)

เบียร์ (beer)

Why do we sometimes use, ร์, ต์ or ย์ ?

[gerryBScot]

I think it depends on the words' origins. 'Beer' and 'percent' have both been transliterated from English so the ์ symbol indicates the words need to be sounded. 'Ajarn' is Pali (?) in origin and according to wikipedia is from the Pali word 'acariya' which is how อาจารย์ would be pronounced if everything was sounded. Drop the ย์ and you have อาจาร which is pronounced as 'ajarn' with the final 'r' sounded as an 'n'.

[Plotholes]

Thanks, that made so much more sense. With that tip, I can now at least make an educated guess when I need to spell words of english origin.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Plotholes

[Richard W]

'Beer' and 'percent' have both been transliterated from English so the ์ symbol indicates the words need to be sounded.

It's actual meaning is that the letter is not to be sounded in Thai. It indicates that the letter is present in English, not that it is to be sounded in British English - or even American English for that matter.

[Richard W]

For Pali/Sanskrit words, they are purely memory work. While the last sounded consonant, unless it has a written vowel, and the silenced ones should be part of a Pali or Sanskrit consonant cluster, sometimes a non-final vowel is also dropped, most typically the vowel before a final written น or ณ.

[gerryBScot]

Thanks Richard for that clarification. You are completely correct because Thais never pronounce the final /t/ in percent and beer is always pronounced 'bia' with no /r/.

[KhunBENQ]

How many more decades will they need for a reform of their script to enable Thai/Thai people to read loanwords as they are?

I remember having read about the language guardians considering reform.

[RickBradford]

On the point about 'aa-jaan' made above, it is worth noting that Thai also has the word อัจฉริยะ (achariya) taken from Pali/Sanskrit, which has the meaning of 'genius'.

[cooked]

One that has always puzzled me is the word Buriram, บุรีรัมย์ . My wife can't explain it either.

[Plotholes]

How many more decades will they need for a reform of their script to enable Thai/Thai people to read loanwords as they are?

I remember having read about the language guardians considering reform.

My other main difficultly in learning to write thai is remembering which is the correct ending constant to use for certain words.

For example, words ending with the 't' sound can be using any of the following.

ต -ฏ -ถ -ฐ -ท -ฒ

-ฑ -ธ -จ -ช -ฌ -ส

-ศ -ษ -ด -ฎ

I can't see a system to it besides memorizing the more common words.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Plotholes

[eric67]

One that has always puzzled me is the word Buriram, บุรีรัมย์ . My wife can't explain it either.

I didn't know it either, but from Googling around a bit:

บุรีรัมย์ means เมืองที่น่ารื่นรมย์: pleasant city

รมย์ comes from Sanskrit รมฺย - ramaya, meaning: pleasant, beautiful

http://dictionary.sanook.com/search/รมย์

[Richard W]

I can't see a system to it besides memorizing the more common words.

It's quite simple if you know Pali and Sanskrit well. All you have to do is guess whether the word is from Sanskrit or Pali, and if from Pali whether the spelling should be Sanskritised or not.

[Mole]

Actually, รมฺย reads "ram-ya" not "ra-ma-ya" because of the dot under ม, which means the ม lose its short vowel "a".

[JaiMaai]

Actually, รมฺย reads "ram-ya" not "ra-ma-ya" because of the dot under ม, which means the ม lose its short vowel "a".

I'd never heard of or noticed this symbol (พินทุ) before.

Do you have an examples of "common words" where it's used or is it rare?

[KhunBENQ]

Seems very rare and thai-language.com describes it as "archaic".

Phinthu (พินทุ )

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/special-symbols

Example,

พฺฤหัสฯ (Jupiter)

Funny enough: if you search it in the dictionary ("Lookup") with this script you don't find it.

But the entry shows it:

http://www.thai-language.com/id/131681

Some interesting confusion about the different script for "jupiter"/"thursday".

Edited December 11, 2015 by KhunBENQ

[Mole]

This dot symbol is only used when writing Sanskrit or Pali with Thai script.

There are certain rules when using Thai script to write and read Sanskrit and Pali. You can read more here:

http://www.cybervanaram.net/index.php/2010-05-25-08-17-50/763-2012-06-06-14-10-14

Also more here:

wikipedia

Another reason to confirm why one should always take whatever is written in the crowdsourced site thai-language.com and there appears to really be nobody who are checking the validity of the information.

For example, for พฤหัส

It says Phonemic Thai พะ-รึ-หัด, which is obviously wrong, because there is no ด at the end of words, only ท.

So, the phonemic Thai should be พะ-รึ-หัท

Also, I'm not so sure if พฺฤหัส with a dot under พ is correct or not.

If you google "พฺฤหัส" (including the ") it will only show 5 entries in the entire internets and they all seems to be sourced from thai-language.com

After doing some searching, it appears it is indeed something wrong. If they're going to have to write it according to the rules on how to write Thai script with Sankrit/Pali.

In this case, พฤหัส will need to be written as พฺฤหสฺ which will make it read as "pri-has". ะ and ั is not used when writing Pali/Sanskrit with Thai script, because it is already implied automatically.

So, either you write it according to Thai transcription which is พฤหัส, or Sanskrit with Thai script as พฺฤหสฺ.

Having both the พินทุ dot as well as the ั in the same word is just wrong.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Mole

[AyG]

For example, for พฤหัส

It says Phonemic Thai พะ-รึ-หัด, which is obviously wrong, because there is no ด at the end of words, only ท.

So, the phonemic Thai should be พะ-รึ-หัท

Mole, you appear to be unaware of the rules for representing Thai pronunciation in Thai script, as used, for example, by the Royal Institute Dictionary. If you look closely at the relative page, you'll see that credit for the pronunciation is given to the RID 1982.

The 1999 version of the RID gives the alternative pronunciations of พฺรึหัดสะบอดี and พะรึหัดสะบอดี.

See http://thai-language.com/id/139277

[Mole]

Hmm, you are right. Still I'm curious where they got their พฺฤหัส from.

[Richard W]

It pains me to to have to shred this post of Mole's, because I wanted to make some of the same points.

This dot symbol is only used when writing Sanskrit or Pali with Thai script.

This isn't quite true, though the symbol was added for the writing of Pali and Sanskrit. While it isn't used for the standard Thai spelling, it is used in the writing systems of some minority mother tongues, or at least, their recommended writing systems. However, in all the cases I am aware of, it serves as a distinguishing diacritic rather than as a vowel killer. It can be used to modify the quality of vowels, and in Pattani Malay it is used to modify consonants, e.g. on so so to represent the /z/ sound as in ซฺาเบะ /zabeʔ/ 'grape'.

Now, this phinthu is also used when showing the pronunciation of English or Thai using the Thai script, and as AyG has pointed out, does not prevent the use of the full range of Thai vowel symbols.

Another reason to confirm why one should always take whatever is written in the crowdsourced site thai-language.com and there appears to really be nobody who are checking the validity of the information.

While I do wonder if they still have a regular native consultant, it isn't actually crowd-sourced. I wonder if there is a problem in the tackling of Thai morphology - the original design assumed that the claim that Thai morphemes had a single form was completely true.

[DavidHouston]

พจนานุกรมฉบับราชบัณฑิตยสถาน พ.ศ. ๒๕๕๔

"คำชี้แจงหลักการจัดทำและวิธีใช้พจนานุกรม ฉบับราชบัณฑิตยสถาน พ.ศ. ๒๕๕๔"

* * * * * *

การบอกคำอ่าน

"๔. คำอ่านที่มีเครื่องหมายพินทุจุดไว้ข้างใต้ตัวอักษร มีความหมายดังนี้

ก. ตัวอักษรนั้นเป็นอักษรนำและไม่อ่านออกเสียง ได้แก่ ตัว ห ใช้พินทุจุดไว้ข้างใต้ตัว
ห เพื่อไม่ให้อ่านเป็นอย่างอื่นซึ่งมีความหมายต่างกัน เช่น เหลา [เหฺลา] เหย [เหฺย] แหงน [แหฺงน]

ข. ตัวอักษรนั้นเป็นอักษรควบกล้ำซึ่งในภาษาไทยมี ๓ ตัว คือ ร ล ว ใช้พินทุจุดใต้
พยัญชนะตัวหน้า เพื่อให้อ่านพยัญชนะตัวหน้า ๒ ตัวควบกัน เช่น ไพร [ไพฺร] ปลอบ [ปฺลอบ] กว่า
[กฺว่า]

http://www.royin.go.th/dictionary/pronounce.php [if you are using Chrome, make sure to select "Unicode" as the Encoding.]

______________________________________________________

"พฤหัสบดี [พฺรึหัดสะบอดี, พะรึหัดสะบอดี] น. (โหร) เทพที่เป็นครูของเทวดาทั้งหลาย . . . "

[Note the "พินทุจุด" below the "พ" in the pronunciation guide for this word]

Edited December 11, 2015 by DavidHouston

[Mole]

I can not still see anywhere they write "พฺฤหัส" (with ฤ)

http://www.thai-language.com/id/131681

Only พฺรึหัด (with รึ)

Edited December 11, 2015 by Mole

[Richard W]

There are certain rules when using Thai script to write and read Sanskrit and Pali. You can read more here:

http://www.cybervanaram.net/index.php/2010-05-25-08-17-50/763-2012-06-06-14-10-14

According to that source, ฤ should not be preceded by phinthu. However, the RID regularly precedes it by phinthu. There is a potential problem with not using phinthu, because sometime this vowel is preceded by another vowel, as in aṛṇin 'free from debt', though in this instance the writing อฤณินฺ is probably clear enough. I don't believe one can appeal to the argument that this is bad Sanskrit. The word exists.

ะ and ั is not used when writing Pali/Sanskrit with Thai script, because it is already implied automatically.

So how do you write Sanskrit duḥkha 'unsatisfactoriness' in the Thai script? The RID writes it ทุะข. Can anyone point me to Sanskrit text, as opposed to isolated words, on-line in the Thai script?

There is, of course, the 'alphabetic' writing of Pali, which uses ะ and ั instead of phinthu, and ง instead of ํ (nikkhahit).

[DavidHouston]

It is interesting to note the difference in the pronunciation code between the current RID: "พฤหัสบดี [พฺรึหัดสะบอดี, พะรึหัดสะบอดี] . . . " and that of the paper version of the RID published in 1950, พจนานุกรมฉบับราชบัณฑิตยสถาน พ.ศ. ๒๔๙๓:

"พฤหัสบดี [พฺรึหัสสฺบอดี] . . . " Note the "พินทุจุด" below both the "พ" and the "ส".

[Richard W]

"พฤหัสบดี [พฺรึหัสสฺบอดี]

Have you underdotted the right so suea? สฺส would have made more sense.

On second thoughts, perhaps they wrote สฺบ because they saw that combination as an impure cluster. Some people maintain that impure clusters are pronounced differently to sequences of two syllables.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Richard W

[DavidHouston]

Sorry, Richard, both the book and my eyes are old. There is only one ส in the pronunciation guide:

"พฤหัสบดี [พฺรึหัดสฺบอดี] . . . " Note the "พินทุจุด" below both the "พ" and the "ส".

The point is under the single ส.

Edited December 11, 2015 by DavidHouston

[tgeezer]

For example, for พฤหัส

It says Phonemic Thai พะ-รึ-หัด, which is obviously wrong, because there is no ด at the end of words, only ท.

So, the phonemic Thai should be พะ-รึ-หัท

.

[tgeezer]

There is nothing wrong with ตัวสะกด แม่กด being represented by ด in Thai is there? It is only in some English phonetics that แม่กด is t.

[Richard W]

There is nothing wrong with ตัวสะกด แม่กด being represented by ด in Thai is there?

Bascially, no, but...

It's a bit tricky to formulate a rule - you need something like 'choose the first common stop consonant at the point of articulation'. The only remaining justification are that it is the consonant that accords best with the practices of Thai orthography and occasions least ambiguity.

The most natural choice all things being equal would have been ต​ to tao, but as its shape is a deliberate modification of that of ด do dek, it made sense to choose do dek instead. At the time, one could also have added the fact that the final stop has an element of glottal closure and do dek represented a preglottalised sound, but that preglottalisation is long gone. It's also probable that the use of do dek is older than the creation of to tao from do dek.

It is only in some English phonetics that แม่กด is t.

Also Vietnamese and Written Burmese. Sentence finally, Sanskrit also opts for /t/ rather than /d/, but that's a little remote. Of course, it Thai had opted for /d/, Thai sound changes would have meant one now used ท tho tahaan, as Mole thought was proper.

[tgeezer]

"Basically, no, but" !

The rule has been formulated already.

พฤหัส > พะรึหัท in the RID would in all likelihood attract reams of criticism.

[cooked]

One that has always puzzled me is the word Buriram, บุรีรัมย์ . My wife can't explain it either.

I didn't know it either, but from Googling around a bit:

บุรีรัมย์ means เมืองที่น่ารื่นรมย์: pleasant city

รมย์ comes from Sanskrit รมฺย - ramaya, meaning: pleasant, beautiful

http://dictionary.sanook.com/search/รมย์

Thanks. I still don't understand why the final letter is ย์