"what Thaksin Had Done Wrong"

[marshbags]

Things may not become perfect but they will change for better governing and there WILL be effective checks and balances in place to stop people like Thaksin exploiting the rule of law.

I have more than serious doubts there will be better governing, effective checks and balances anytime soon in Thailand.

After '92 everybody said that there will never be a military coup anymore in Thailand.

After '97 everybody said that we have now the best possible constitution that will lead Thailand into a modern and democratic society.

And now everybody says (lacking a free press ) that this coup will lead to democracy.

I believe it when i see it. And so far, i do only see the opposite.

A question i have asked several times, and that still went unanswered: how do you explain yourself that the present "reform" government devilises Thaksin, though has continued with almost all of TRT policies so far, and introduced a few even more insane ones, such as taking an example at Pakisthan to solve the problems down south?

Where is the bile on the board over the insanities over the Tom Yam Gung stalls? Half of Thailand laughs about it, but here...

Where are the complaints over the much stiffer media censorship of the present government than even under Thaksin, who was bad enough already?

ColPyat

Why not demonstrate reason in your request for the above answers.

The TRT where in power for 5 years during which time they minipulated Thai laws for self interest.

The true meanings / intensions of the constitution in place, where, during this time interpretated by Thaksin and his cronies in such a way that the initial aims of why they where introduced became meaningless.

Thaksin is being " devilised " because of his unethical behaviour, self interest, TRT conflicts of interest which where of no benefit to Thai people ct. ect. ect.

Even now he is alledgedly finished with politics and wants to help reconciliation, he is causing unrest everywhere and offence to the Thai population.

Take my biggest concern , the Extra Judicial Killings,

He gets his mouthpiece " Noppadol Pattama " to make statements that are at the very least insensitive and offer nothing but further hurt and offence to the victims and their families instead of taking the oppurtunity to show regret and understanding for their plight.

For which i,ll add again as CEO he is ultimately responsible let alone accountable for. ( the E.J.Killings )

For these and many other reasons the unfair treatment as you see it is as a result, reward for his arrogance and insincerity during his role as premier, all across the board on everthing he and his coherts have been party to.

Regarding the continuation of TRT policies, this is not exactly true as the ones that are at present continuing, are do

Edited November 28, 2006 by marshbags

[marshbags]

Apologies for duplicating my reply to Colpyat as it appears to have lost part of its content during editing.

QUOTE(ColPyat @ 2006-11-26 20:38:14)

QUOTE(marshbags @ 2006-11-26 16:53:43)

Things may not become perfect but they will change for better governing and there WILL be effective checks and balances in place to stop people like Thaksin exploiting the rule of law.

I have more than serious doubts there will be better governing, effective checks and balances anytime soon in Thailand.

After '92 everybody said that there will never be a military coup anymore in Thailand.

After '97 everybody said that we have now the best possible constitution that will lead Thailand into a modern and democratic society.

And now everybody says (lacking a free press ) that this coup will lead to democracy.

I believe it when i see it. And so far, i do only see the opposite.

A question i have asked several times, and that still went unanswered: how do you explain yourself that the present "reform" government devilises Thaksin, though has continued with almost all of TRT policies so far, and introduced a few even more insane ones, such as taking an example at Pakisthan to solve the problems down south?

Where is the bile on the board over the insanities over the Tom Yam Gung stalls? Half of Thailand laughs about it, but here...

Where are the complaints over the much stiffer media censorship of the present government than even under Thaksin, who was bad enough already?

ColPyat

Why not demonstrate reason in your request for the above answers.

The TRT where in power for 5 years during which time they minipulated Thai laws for self interest.

The true meanings / intensions of the constitution in place, where, during this time interpretated by Thaksin and his cronies in such a way that the initial aims of why they where introduced became meaningless.

Thaksin is being " devilised " because of his unethical behaviour, self interest,TRT conflicts of interest which where of no benefit to Thai people ct. ect. ect.

Even now he is alledgedly finished with politics and wants to help reconciliation he is causing unrest everywhere and offence to the Thai population.

Take my biggest concern , the Extra Juicial Killings,

He gets his mouthpiece to make statements that are at the least insensitive and offer further hurt to the victims and their families instead of taking the oppurtunity to show regret and understanding for their plight.

For which i,ll add again as CEO he is ultimately responsible let alone accountable for.

For these and many other reasons the unfair treatment as you see it is reward for his arrogance and insincerity, all across the board on everthing he has been party to.

Regarding the continuation of TRT policies, this is not exactly true as the ones that are at present continuing, are doing so because they have first of all, been modified / reformed to give them benefits that are favourable to Thai society and not the chosen few.

Second , do you really think on the time scale the present government have been in charge ( less than 3 months ) they can expedite all that has happened in 5 years and cancel everything that has been introduced, full stop, and thus leaving the country in total chaos without any guidance and expediency.

Maybe in a decent amount of time you will get the answers, along with a reality check you deserve.

Wether it is to your liking, that depends on your own personal agenda and your willingness to accept the obvious.

Last of all thanks to wisdom and foresight the coup was introduced in the first place to put a stop to Thaksins continual , self rewarding governance before it totally destroyed the constituation and it,s meanings.

In my humble opinion time will prove it was justified in this case and beneficial.

It becomes more interesting by the day don,t you think ?

marshbags

P.S. Sorry about the delay in responding personally as I was busy on other things away from T.Visa.

Edited November 28, 2006 by marshbags

[pete_r]

I'm no big believer in polls here, but it would seem, even with a margin of error, that ol' Thakky's popularity is severely floundering.

That despite what some here have professed to be the Northerners' and Northeasterners' undying, never-ending, just-chomping-at-the-bit-to-go-conquer-Bangkok psyche, that these folks belief in Thaksin is changing as quickly as a soi dog darting across Sukhumwit.

Anyway, here's a nice bit of reality to help uncloud the haze they create:

Thaksin's popular rating lowest in six years

The popular rating of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has reached the lowest level in six years, an opinion survey has found.

The survey by the Assumption University found that Thaksin received a popular rating of of 15.8 per cent compared with 70.5 per cent of his successor, Surayud Chulanont.

The survey was carried out by the university among 4,195 voters from 18 provinces during November 18 to 25. The results were announced Sunday.

[...]

The Nation

-------------------------------------------

A 4:1 against ratio in the North and a 2:1 ratio against in the Northeast. Thaksin's as popular in these areas now as a King cobra in a primary school classroom.

This poll is not unclouding anything for me. I've put my comments on another thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=94457

Talking about classroom, I note it's the first time since the coup that Thaksin's ratings are published. Is it a new competition? "My popularity rating is bigger than yours, see, 4195 people cannot be wrong... So stop getting media attention whenever you go shopping or golfing somewhere..."

Edited November 28, 2006 by pete_r

[ColPyat]

Apologies for duplicating my reply to Colpyat as it appears to have lost part of its content during editing.

QUOTE(ColPyat @ 2006-11-26 20:38:14)

QUOTE(marshbags @ 2006-11-26 16:53:43)

Things may not become perfect but they will change for better governing and there WILL be effective checks and balances in place to stop people like Thaksin exploiting the rule of law.

I have more than serious doubts there will be better governing, effective checks and balances anytime soon in Thailand.

After '92 everybody said that there will never be a military coup anymore in Thailand.

After '97 everybody said that we have now the best possible constitution that will lead Thailand into a modern and democratic society.

And now everybody says (lacking a free press ) that this coup will lead to democracy.

I believe it when i see it. And so far, i do only see the opposite.

A question i have asked several times, and that still went unanswered: how do you explain yourself that the present "reform" government devilises Thaksin, though has continued with almost all of TRT policies so far, and introduced a few even more insane ones, such as taking an example at Pakisthan to solve the problems down south?

Where is the bile on the board over the insanities over the Tom Yam Gung stalls? Half of Thailand laughs about it, but here...

Where are the complaints over the much stiffer media censorship of the present government than even under Thaksin, who was bad enough already?

ColPyat

Why not demonstrate reason in your request for the above answers.

The TRT where in power for 5 years during which time they minipulated Thai laws for self interest.

The true meanings / intensions of the constitution in place, where, during this time interpretated by Thaksin and his cronies in such a way that the initial aims of why they where introduced became meaningless.

Thaksin is being " devilised " because of his unethical behaviour, self interest,TRT conflicts of interest which where of no benefit to Thai people ct. ect. ect.

Even now he is alledgedly finished with politics and wants to help reconciliation he is causing unrest everywhere and offence to the Thai population.

Take my biggest concern , the Extra Juicial Killings,

He gets his mouthpiece to make statements that are at the least insensitive and offer further hurt to the victims and their families instead of taking the oppurtunity to show regret and understanding for their plight.

For which i,ll add again as CEO he is ultimately responsible let alone accountable for.

For these and many other reasons the unfair treatment as you see it is reward for his arrogance and insincerity, all across the board on everthing he has been party to.

Regarding the continuation of TRT policies, this is not exactly true as the ones that are at present continuing, are doing so because they have first of all, been modified / reformed to give them benefits that are favourable to Thai society and not the chosen few.

Second , do you really think on the time scale the present government have been in charge ( less than 3 months ) they can expedite all that has happened in 5 years and cancel everything that has been introduced, full stop, and thus leaving the country in total chaos without any guidance and expediency.

Maybe in a decent amount of time you will get the answers, along with a reality check you deserve.

Wether it is to your liking, that depends on your own personal agenda and your willingness to accept the obvious.

Last of all thanks to wisdom and foresight the coup was introduced in the first place to put a stop to Thaksins continual , self rewarding governance before it totally destroyed the constituation and it,s meanings.

In my humble opinion time will prove it was justified in this case and beneficial.

It becomes more interesting by the day don,t you think ?

marshbags

P.S. Sorry about the delay in responding personally as I was busy on other things away from T.Visa.

Yes, things become more interesting by the day. I wish they would not.

A few rather simple to solve Thaksin idiocies that the present government would not have needed to continue:

-the introduction of the very strict visa rules, which are already creating huge misery under Thai-Farang families

-the strict alcohol advertising ban, which has already caused severe damage to many industries

A home made policy that already creates misery under the Thai population:

-the lowering of the rice price

Complete idiocies made up by the present government:

-looking at Pakisthan to solve insurgency problems in the south

-promotion of a national economic policy that nobody has been able to explain, that the whole diplomatic and political world laughs about (though is a bit too polite to do so in public)

-the nominee issue

A policy that stinks of corruption:

-put army officers on the boards of state owned companies

And only one policy i can fully support:

-the attempt to bring light in the murky issue of the drugwar killings (though unfortunately only aimed at Thaksin, and not at his collaborators)

Other than that, only rethorics, and no results.

[sriracha john]

I'm no big believer in polls here, but it would seem, even with a margin of error, that ol' Thakky's popularity is severely floundering.

That despite what some here have professed to be the Northerners' and Northeasterners' undying, never-ending, just-chomping-at-the-bit-to-go-conquer-Bangkok psyche, that these folks belief in Thaksin is changing as quickly as a soi dog darting across Sukhumwit.

Anyway, here's a nice bit of reality to help uncloud the haze they create:

Thaksin's popular rating lowest in six years

The popular rating of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has reached the lowest level in six years, an opinion survey has found.

The survey by the Assumption University found that Thaksin received a popular rating of of 15.8 per cent compared with 70.5 per cent of his successor, Surayud Chulanont.

The survey was carried out by the university among 4,195 voters from 18 provinces during November 18 to 25. The results were announced Sunday.

[...]

The Nation

-------------------------------------------

A 4:1 against ratio in the North and a 2:1 ratio against in the Northeast. Thaksin's as popular in these areas now as a King cobra in a primary school classroom.

This poll is not unclouding anything for me. I've put my comments on another thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=94457

Talking about classroom, I note it's the first time since the coup that Thaksin's ratings are published. Is it a new competition? "My popularity rating is bigger than yours, see, 4195 people cannot be wrong... So stop getting media attention whenever you go shopping or golfing somewhere..."

Even given the shortfalls of the polling, it does goes against the myth being propagated here that the former Thaksin followers in those regions are dyed-in-the-wool, never-ending zealots that are all totally against the coup. From first hand accounts of various members to this confirming poll all of which dispel this myth, I felt it worthwhile to shed some light onto the misleading, dark, foreboding future some would like us to believe.

[Plus]

-the introduction of the very strict visa rules, which are already creating huge misery under Thai-Farang families

Do you mean no more than 3 border runs? Not THAT many people affected by this, non-issue.

-the strict alcohol advertising ban, which has already caused severe damage to many industries

If it decreases alcohol consumption and drunk driving deaths, industry profits are secondary.

A home made policy that already creates misery under the Thai population:

-the lowering of the rice price

Correction - removing price subsidy

Complete idiocies made up by the present government:

-looking at Pakisthan to solve insurgency problems in the south

Pakistan has been dealing with its border provinces for ages, why not learn something from them if it helps in Thailand.

-promotion of a national economic policy that nobody has been able to explain, that the whole diplomatic and political world laughs about (though is a bit too polite to do so in public)

While the whole world begs China to adopt something similar and curb its unrestrained growth. Non-issue.

A policy that stinks of corruption:

-put army officers on the boards of state owned companies

Sonthi says it's to make sure that boards are not influenced by politicians. We know how it went for the past few years. Extra salary is an acceptable loss if they can prevent deals like TOT - AIS.

[the swagman]

I can only ditto Plus' words.

May I add a few more.

The poll cited by one of the posters is nothing new and nothing that you would not expect. These type of polls dont really say much and are rarely accurate.

Why do you think Taksin enjoys support among the rural Thai population?

Rural towns and communities for years the forgotten part of the country, now have paved roads, electricity that is constant, telephones that work, better street lighting.

The villagers now can go to hospitals and recieve medical treatment, whereas before they had to rely on clinics and local wisdom.

And lets not forget education.

On this and other forums, there is an increasing amount of foreigners earning a living teaching in out of the way schools. Unheard of 6 years ago. Scholarships being given to the best and the brightest for further studies and even being sent overseas to study. Again unheard of 6 years ago.

This is now being looked at, by the military government. Cutting off the education of the youth in the country, coming back to the old way of the rich and well off, chinese shop owners in Bangkok who willingly pay top dollar to have their kids privately tutored.

How will this bode for the future of the country if we go back to the old ways.

The visa laws and the alcohol advertising ban, welcomed by the general Thai population. This is what was started 6 years ago by Purachai, and his new social order campaign, lauded by the general population and which many felt was well overdue. As to was the drug war by the way.

The main opposition came from the Bangkok population, who resisted any attempt to see their way of life eroded by sending money to the country.

Debts were increasing among thenhouseholders. You cant really blame Taksin for that. A generation who all of a sudden had credit cards and well stocked stores, a generation who were trying to life a lifestyle they couldnt sustain.

It's not going to be much different.

[Siripon]

I can only ditto Plus' words.

May I add a few more.

The poll cited by one of the posters is nothing new and nothing that you would not expect. These type of polls dont really say much and are rarely accurate.

Why do you think Taksin enjoys support among the rural Thai population?

Rural towns and communities for years the forgotten part of the country, now have paved roads, electricity that is constant, telephones that work, better street lighting.

The villagers now can go to hospitals and recieve medical treatment, whereas before they had to rely on clinics and local wisdom.

And lets not forget education.

On this and other forums, there is an increasing amount of foreigners earning a living teaching in out of the way schools. Unheard of 6 years ago. Scholarships being given to the best and the brightest for further studies and even being sent overseas to study. Again unheard of 6 years ago.

This is now being looked at, by the military government. Cutting off the education of the youth in the country, coming back to the old way of the rich and well off, chinese shop owners in Bangkok who willingly pay top dollar to have their kids privately tutored.

How will this bode for the future of the country if we go back to the old ways.

The visa laws and the alcohol advertising ban, welcomed by the general Thai population. This is what was started 6 years ago by Purachai, and his new social order campaign, lauded by the general population and which many felt was well overdue. As to was the drug war by the way.

The main opposition came from the Bangkok population, who resisted any attempt to see their way of life eroded by sending money to the country.

Debts were increasing among thenhouseholders. You cant really blame Taksin for that. A generation who all of a sudden had credit cards and well stocked stores, a generation who were trying to life a lifestyle they couldnt sustain.

It's not going to be much different.

The paved roads came years before Thaksin, as did cheap healthcare for the poor. Thaksin tried to pretend he set up universal healthcare but in practice the 30 baht scheme was very limited, basically paracetomal and be on your way.

Regarding telephones, after Thaksin came to power getting a fixed line became much harder, I wonder why?

Scholarships for the best and brightest, one in 10,000! What about improving the education of the other 9,999? But Thaksin never cared about education, he changed education ministers with every season, and don't forget his stinging rebuke of teachers as lazy and apathetic.

As for foreigners teaching upcountry, they've been doing that for years, it was Thaksin's government that wrote the new visa laws.

You seem to be confused about Purachai, he was a founder member of TRT with support in Bangkok and is a member of the elite owning a lot of land. Personally I doubt there is a lot of public support for the banning of alcohol adverts.

Regarding debt, Thaksin had no part in this?! Who lent the villages 1 million baht with no strings attached? Who was the owner of Capital OK, a finance company aimed at the poor?

'Fellow peasants',พ่อเเม่พี่น้อง Phi will lend you money,( not mine but the taxpayers'), and not too much that you can really start a business but enough for you to buy one of my AIS phones'.

[Gary A]

What Toxin (Thaksin) did was to out smart the rest of the thieves. If anyone thinks Toxin is crooked they are undoubtedly correct, BUT they better take a close look at all the tin pot wannabe dictators wanting to take his place. When the King passes away, hold on to your asses and plan a rapid getaway. I know I am!

[sriracha john]

once again, Siripon nails it...

excellent points.

[the swagman]

Paved roads yes but no upkeep. Some of the best kept roads were in Suphan Buri, where a certain former prime minister who also was known to be incredibly corrupt lived. Funny how he kept getting into government.

Paracetamol, well what did they get from the clinics at 100 baht a pop.

Fixed lines became harder because previuous administrations didnt have the foresight to install enough lines. I am talking about public more so.

Foreign teachers in numbers have not been teaching in the provinces. It was unusual to find lesser well off high schools and orimary schools with foreign teachers full time.

I know who Purachai was. I said he was the man who introduced certain laws, such as the closing of bars at a certain time, stricter controls on underage drinking and stricter law enforcement in the entertainment venues. He was a member of the elite in Bangkok, but his popularity was not diminished in any way by the new regulations he brought into the capital. He was also a very private man who didn't particularly like the attention he received and pulled out of the government.

[ColPyat]

-the introduction of the very strict visa rules, which are already creating huge misery under Thai-Farang families

Do you mean no more than 3 border runs? Not THAT many people affected by this, non-issue.

enough though that embassies are already preparing for many people seeking help as a direct result of the new regulations. And, it was a Thaksin policy

-the strict alcohol advertising ban, which has already caused severe damage to many industries

If it decreases alcohol consumption and drunk driving deaths, industry profits are secondary.

It hardly will, biggest problem in Thailand is Lao Khao, and that is nowhere advertised. It was another Thaksin policy, by the way.

A home made policy that already creates misery under the Thai population:

-the lowering of the rice price

Correction - removing price subsidy

Semantics. However you want to call it - it creats misery under the already hard hit farmers.

Complete idiocies made up by the present government:

-looking at Pakisthan to solve insurgency problems in the south

Pakistan has been dealing with its border provinces for ages, why not learn something from them if it helps in Thailand.

LOL! If you have ever been in those tribal agencies of Pakisthan you would not say that.

-promotion of a national economic policy that nobody has been able to explain, that the whole diplomatic and political world laughs about (though is a bit too polite to do so in public)

While the whole world begs China to adopt something similar and curb its unrestrained growth. Non-issue.

I would need citation before i believe that, and even then it might only be diplomats being diplomatic.

A policy that stinks of corruption:

-put army officers on the boards of state owned companies

Sonthi says it's to make sure that boards are not influenced by politicians. We know how it went for the past few years. Extra salary is an acceptable loss if they can prevent deals like TOT - AIS.

Yes, and Thai army has never been involved in large scale corruption, LOL

[Plus]

While the whole world begs China to adopt something similar and curb its unrestrained growth. Non-issue.

I would need citation before i believe that, and even then it might only be diplomats being diplomatic.

Go to Google, type "China Growth" and hit "search the news" button.

You'll get plenty of headlines like "In China, Growth at Whose Cost?", "China policies will slow economic growth: report", "Macro economy: Shanghai moves economy to sustainable track", all published just in the last couple of days.

It's a general consenus that China's economy is overheated and needs to slow down and become more sustainable.

[pete_r]

While the whole world begs China to adopt something similar and curb its unrestrained growth. Non-issue.

I would need citation before i believe that, and even then it might only be diplomats being diplomatic.

Go to Google, type "China Growth" and hit "search the news" button.

You'll get plenty of headlines like "In China, Growth at Whose Cost?", "China policies will slow economic growth: report", "Macro economy: Shanghai moves economy to sustainable track", all published just in the last couple of days.

It's a general consenus that China's economy is overheated and needs to slow down and become more sustainable.

Yes, China is overheating and needs to slow down. But does Thailand need the same?

I don't see an overheating economy in Thailand, quite the opposite in fact, and that's why a clear economic policy would be welcome.

[pete_r]

Last of all thanks to wisdom and foresight the coup was introduced in the first place to put a stop to Thaksins continual , self rewarding governance before it totally destroyed the constituation and it,s meanings .

In my humble opinion time will prove it was justified in this case and beneficial.

It becomes more interesting by the day don,t you think ?

marshbags

So the constitution was abolished before it was totally destroyed... Mmh.

Edited November 28, 2006 by pete_r

[Mid]

While the whole world begs China to adopt something similar and curb its unrestrained growth. Non-issue.

I would need citation before i believe that, and even then it might only be diplomats being diplomatic.

Go to Google, type "China Growth" and hit "search the news" button.

You'll get plenty of headlines like "In China, Growth at Whose Cost?", "China policies will slow economic growth: report", "Macro economy: Shanghai moves economy to sustainable track", all published just in the last couple of days.

It's a general consenus that China's economy is overheated and needs to slow down and become more sustainable.

Yes, China is overheating and needs to slow down. But does Thailand need the same?

I don't see an overheating economy in Thailand, quite the opposite in fact, and that's why a clear economic policy would be welcome.

word

[Plus]

Thaksin jump started the economy with massive non-performing loan write offs and massive listings on stock exchange, and ran it in overdrive with government stimulus measures for five years without paying attention to quality of that growth. It has always been clear that it's unsustainable, and some people were/are waiting for the crash to come down.

There's nothing wrong with re-focusing government's attention on stability. It has been recommended from all sides for the past two years.

[pete_r]

Even given the shortfalls of the polling, it does goes against the myth being propagated here that the former Thaksin followers in those regions are dyed-in-the-wool, never-ending zealots that are all totally against the coup. From first hand accounts of various members to this confirming poll all of which dispel this myth, I felt it worthwhile to shed some light onto the misleading, dark, foreboding future some would like us to believe.

Yep, I don't see the provinces rising up and marching on Bangkok calling for Thaksin's return. That is a myth. My view is that everyone is still waiting to see where the wind comes from at the moment. And if life remains good, as it seems it will (lifting of martial law for example), there will be no reason for large protests. What I find funny in this poll is the publication of Thaksin's ratings.

Edited November 28, 2006 by pete_r

[ColPyat]

While the whole world begs China to adopt something similar and curb its unrestrained growth. Non-issue.

I would need citation before i believe that, and even then it might only be diplomats being diplomatic.

Go to Google, type "China Growth" and hit "search the news" button.

You'll get plenty of headlines like "In China, Growth at Whose Cost?", "China policies will slow economic growth: report", "Macro economy: Shanghai moves economy to sustainable track", all published just in the last couple of days.

It's a general consenus that China's economy is overheated and needs to slow down and become more sustainable.

Don't wriggle your way out.

You made the statement that the Thai model of "sufficiency economy" (or something "similar", whatever that may mean) is recommended by the rest of the world for China, and i asked you to privide proof. You have failed to deliver any proof that backs up your statement.

[hammered]

Interesting today to read in the Nation that there are worries that TRT members may be ready to give the dirt on Mr. Thaksin and a few others over the buying political parties issue so these few and Mr. Thaksin go down but TRT survives.

[younghusband]

Even given the shortfalls of the polling, it does goes against the myth being propagated here that the former Thaksin followers in those regions are dyed-in-the-wool, never-ending zealots that are all totally against the coup. From first hand accounts of various members to this confirming poll all of which dispel this myth, I felt it worthwhile to shed some light onto the misleading, dark, foreboding future some would like us to believe.

Yep, I don't see the provinces rising up and marching on Bangkok calling for Thaksin's return. That is a myth. My view is that everyone is still waiting to see where the wind comes from at the moment. And if life remains good, as it seems it will (lifting of martial law for example), there will be no reason for large protests. What I find funny in this poll is the publication of Thaksin's ratings.

Interesting article by Chang Noi published in the Nation on 27th November addresses some of the issues in an intelligent and convincing way.I will quote him freely.

He talks about Sondhi's role as the lightning rod for the Bangkok middle class's emotional rejection of Thaksin.Underlying Sondhi's views is the city's fear of the countryside, the middle class's fear of the peasant.Underlying this fear is the huge divide in Thai society -not just the massive inequality in incomes, but the great imbalance in the distribution of social services and public goods, and also the cultural gap, which has widened as the city has grown richer and more confident.

Thaksin's populism was sometimes crude, often extravagant, and always a cover for corruption.cronyism and profiteering.But what made this populism truly frightening for the middle class -and hence the focus of Sondhi's tirade was its political implications.Thaksin was giving political legitimacy to rural demands.If the trend was followed to its logical conclusion, it would undermine the city's undue share of government spending and public goods.There would also be a bill, which the well off might be asked to pay.

The thinking may find its way into the drafting of the new constitution, in the form of measures designed to upweight the effective representation of Bangkok and downweight that of the countryside.But this will fail.Thaksin became a populist because he recognised there was a political demand which he could exploit to gain and retain power.Removing Thaksin will not destroy the populism he came to represent.A constitutional solution that tries to ensure rural demands do not get the hearing they deserve in the formal politics of the nation will simply re-direct those demands elsewhere.

[hammered]

Even given the shortfalls of the polling, it does goes against the myth being propagated here that the former Thaksin followers in those regions are dyed-in-the-wool, never-ending zealots that are all totally against the coup. From first hand accounts of various members to this confirming poll all of which dispel this myth, I felt it worthwhile to shed some light onto the misleading, dark, foreboding future some would like us to believe.

Yep, I don't see the provinces rising up and marching on Bangkok calling for Thaksin's return. That is a myth. My view is that everyone is still waiting to see where the wind comes from at the moment. And if life remains good, as it seems it will (lifting of martial law for example), there will be no reason for large protests. What I find funny in this poll is the publication of Thaksin's ratings.

Interesting article by Chang Noi published in the Nation on 27th November addresses some of the issues in an intelligent and convincing way.I will quote him freely.

He talks about Sondhi's role as the lightning rod for the Bangkok middle class's emotional rejection of Thaksin.Underlying Sondhi's views is the city's fear of the countryside, the middle class's fear of the peasant.Underlying this fear is the huge divide in Thai society -not just the massive inequality in incomes, but the great imbalance in the distribution of social services and public goods, and also the cultural gap, which has widened as the city has grown richer and more confident.

Thaksin's populism was sometimes crude, often extravagant, and always a cover for corruption.cronyism and profiteering.But what made this populism truly frightening for the middle class -and hence the focus of Sondhi's tirade was its political implications.Thaksin was giving political legitimacy to rural demands.If the trend was followed to its logical conclusion, it would undermine the city's undue share of government spending and public goods.There would also be a bill, which the well off might be asked to pay.

The thinking may find its way into the drafting of the new constitution, in the form of measures designed to upweight the effective representation of Bangkok and downweight that of the countryside.But this will fail.Thaksin became a populist because he recognised there was a political demand which he could exploit to gain and retain power.Removing Thaksin will not destroy the populism he came to represent.A constitutional solution that tries to ensure rural demands do not get the hearing they deserve in the formal politics of the nation will simply re-direct those demands elsewhere.

It seems to fit in with the centralization versus decentralization debate. It will be interesting to see how this is finally addressed in a new constitution as decentralization will potentially give local people more say on their local issues as long as the politicians adhere to the principle. The old 1997 one went for a high level of decentralization with people empowered although this was largely ignored by the politicians with even Mr. Thaksin making sure his populist plans were all seen as coming from center. The state also did its best to undermine the idea of empowering locally elected officials by stating that were not well educated enough to oversee budgets and personnel, and by limiting what bodies were transferred to them. The increasing size of the budget to be allocated to the provinces was also restricted a bit and funneled through centrally appointed governors rather than the elected bodies. Maybe if social cohesion is to be improved and an avoidance of an unchecked strong to authoritarian PM is desired the previously promised but never realized decentralization is the way ahead.

[Plus]

Don't wriggle your way out.

You made the statement that the Thai model of "sufficiency economy" (or something "similar", whatever that may mean) is recommended by the rest of the world for China, and i asked you to privide proof. You have failed to deliver any proof that backs up your statement.

Moderated growth and less exposure to risks and external shocks both on macro and micro levels - ring any bells? Or you are still thinking about vegetable gardens and fish ponds?

[ColPyat]

Don't wriggle your way out.

You made the statement that the Thai model of "sufficiency economy" (or something "similar", whatever that may mean) is recommended by the rest of the world for China, and i asked you to privide proof. You have failed to deliver any proof that backs up your statement.

Moderated growth and less exposure to risks and external shocks both on macro and micro levels - ring any bells? Or you are still thinking about vegetable gardens and fish ponds?

Nops, my friend.

We were talking about the new Thai economic policy "sufficiency economy" that the whole world laughs about as it contains no definitions or directives. You claimed that this yet unexplained, widely open to interpretition, policy is recommended to China by the rest of the world.

Tangible proof, please, links, citations, etc.

That means not what the poster named Plus recomends.

[Siripon]

Don't wriggle your way out.

You made the statement that the Thai model of "sufficiency economy" (or something "similar", whatever that may mean) is recommended by the rest of the world for China, and i asked you to privide proof. You have failed to deliver any proof that backs up your statement.

Moderated growth and less exposure to risks and external shocks both on macro and micro levels - ring any bells? Or you are still thinking about vegetable gardens and fish ponds?

I apologise in advance for this, but I couldn't help laughing, ' you have failed to deliver any proof that backs up your statement' .

The colonel is the number one on thaivisa for this!

[Plus]

Colpyat, do you want me to dig up quotes from Surayud and Kosit explaining what they mean by self-sufficiency when applied to Thai economy? Do you want me find how they exactly they worded basically the same concept - "moderated growth and less exposure to risks and external shocks both on macro and micro levels"

Do you want me to dig up thousands of quotes on what the world economists recommend to Chinese goverment and compare all those quotes with quotes from Surayud and Kosit? Then we can have ten pages dissecting nuances in meaning and the significance of difference in wording.

I'm not going to indulge you in meaningless, pointless, and endless arguments.

[sriracha john]

You're finally coming around, Plus...

[ColPyat]

Colpyat, do you want me to dig up quotes from Surayud and Kosit explaining what they mean by self-sufficiency when applied to Thai economy? Do you want me find how they exactly they worded basically the same concept - "moderated growth and less exposure to risks and external shocks both on macro and micro levels"

Do you want me to dig up thousands of quotes on what the world economists recommend to Chinese goverment and compare all those quotes with quotes from Surayud and Kosit? Then we can have ten pages dissecting nuances in meaning and the significance of difference in wording.

I'm not going to indulge you in meaningless, pointless, and endless arguments.

I though so - no substantiation. You would have difficulties to find one.

I don't really care what Surayudh or Kosit understands under "sufficiency economy" - i just want a clear definition of it, including practical guidelines and definitions including projection etc. Not the usual amateur Buddhist brabble of moderation along the middle path.

There are many different statements of different people how sufficiency economy could be interpreted. The most ironic was two speaches of Prem explaining sufficiency economy. He introcuced the speaches with the statement that he does not exactly know what it means, LOL.

[sriracha john]

Review of deals from the Thaksin era urged

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont should order a review of business contracts considered or sealed by the ousted Thaksin Shinawatra government and ensure changes where necessary, Auditor-General Jaruvan Maintakha said yesterday. Speaking at a forum on checks-and-balances organised by Ramkhamhaeng University, she said a review by cabinet ministers concerned or state enterprise directors before problematic projects reached the Office of the Auditor-General would help speed up the OAG's work. ''Each agency should look at projects approved intentionally or unintentionally,'' she said in an apparent reference to alleged top-level corruption within the Thaksin administration. ''This should be done before the Office of the Auditor-General finds them [problems]. It would help the OAG speed up its examination work. I know that in some projects, prices have been raised higher than market values,'' she added. Relevant agencies should punish wrongdoers seriously if they are found guilty by the OAG and they should help follow up on the results, she said. She also agreed to calls for OAG reports to be made open to the public and relevant agencies on request.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/30Nov2006_news08.php

[sriracha john]

NCCC sets up panel to probe Thaksin's tie with Ample Rich

The National Counter Corruption Commission Thursday set up a panel to investigate the sale of Shin Corp's shares to Ample Rich by former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

NCCC Chairman Parnthep Klanarongran said the sub-committee probing the Ample Rich case will be headed by Klanarong Chanthik.

The Nation