"what Thaksin Had Done Wrong"

[jaapfries]

How about the positive impacts?

You mean positice impacts for Thaksin or for the country ? ? ? ? ? ?

If you meant the latter; then you must possess very dense grey-matter, my friend !

This chap Thaksin is nothing more than a thief, albeit on a very grand scale; but still a common thief ! !

[ColPyat]

How about the positive impacts?

You mean positice impacts for Thaksin or for the country ? ? ? ? ? ?

If you meant the latter; then you must possess very dense grey-matter, my friend !

This chap Thaksin is nothing more than a thief, albeit on a very grand scale; but still a common thief ! !

Another one blinded by hate.

Things are never that simple. Under Thaksin's reign some of the most memorable human rights violations have been committed, no doubt about that.

On the other hand, without Thaksin Thailand would most definately still wait for its first national health system. A side effect from Thaksin's reliance on voter based power he had to draw previously neglected sectors of society - the rural poor - into the political decision making process. And as the first PM ever in Thailand - with something that at least resembles at a policy based platform in addition to the usual personalised and backdoor politics.

Edited November 23, 2006 by ColPyat

[jaapfries]

From a Global standard the actions of the Thai people and The Kingdom itself represents a ceasation in the downward trend of impressions Thailand had become to endure.

Thailand from my experience

(and I have travelled fairly extensively) is about its people.

Being represented by an obvious deviant does not go unnoticed on the world stage.

The "either your with us or against us" tirade by the warmonger Bush said more than I can ever say, the world is becomong split..

By having the courage to remove this person from office dictates volumes to the rest of the world.

The Baht is getting stronger not weaker and that says a lot right there.

It is high time that Thailand and it's people stop being the victim and act, and they have started to do just that.

Foriegn investment and growth will change Thailand no doubt and probably some of those changes will not be so convenient. Alas, we are all living in a changing reality and it is far far better that Thailand be on the upswing than the way it was headed under the previous regime.

The political model was nothing new. The neocons and many other right wing opressive governments have done the same thing to weaken the power structure of the respective governing bodies.

Sell what the people have purchased, use up the profit in a one time switcheroo and take kickbacks from the sale of public entities to endulge in shameless profiteering on the backs of the citizenry.

Sure, the installation of a new government will take time, and the pessimism and naysayers will whine about this and that, as this site is a prime example.

But in my opinion the Thai people and it's fantastic reality can rest assured they will be in far better shape in the future than they ever could have been if this person had not been removed from office.

I am quite sure there are far more nasty things Mr. Thaksin accomplished while in office than reported here. To see this type of individual booted out by the military shows why Thailand is not only smart enough to acknowledge the situation, but a leader in the world by having the kahoonas to throw the bum out!

Many countries in this world wish they had this kind of oppurtunity.

Long Live the King!

Brilliantly worded; hmmmmm, a voice of reason and intelligence . . . . . . . Canadian huh ? I am NOT suprised ! ! !

JGK / Ex-Vancouver-ite

[jaapfries]

I'm impressed.

It seems that a third of the posters here seem to defend ######sin, and the most commonly used argument is: others do it, too.

You're real smart guys, I must admit. I'll now rape your little sister, but don't take it personally, others do it, too.

Thaksin severely abused his power, resulting in death and corruption, any attempt to play it down can only be made by brainwashed morons.

You mean "Morons of epic proportions" right ?!

I couldn;t agree with you more ! ! !

JGK

[jaapfries]

How about the positive impacts?

You mean positice impacts for Thaksin or for the country ? ? ? ? ? ?

If you meant the latter; then you must possess very dense grey-matter, my friend !

This chap Thaksin is nothing more than a thief, albeit on a very grand scale; but still a common thief ! !

Another one blinded by hate.

Things are never that simple. Under Thaksin's reign some of the most memorable human rights violations have been committed, no doubt about that.

On the other hand, without Thaksin Thailand would most definately still wait for its first national health system. A side effect from Thaksin's reliance on voter based power he had to draw previously neglected sectors of society - the rural poor - into the political decision making process. And as the first PM ever in Thailand - with something that at least resembles at a policy based platform in addition to the usual personalised and backdoor politics.

Let me assure you, that I am most certainly NOT blinded by hate. I believe, though, after reading your "arguments" that you are surely blinded by total ignorance: you write "without Thaksin Thailand would most definately still wait for its first national health system" - mate; what the keck are you refering to ??? The idiotic and totally bankrupt "30 Baht-Scheme" perhaps ? ? ? ?

Geeeez; I certainly hope your wife controls your bank-accounts, because you're obviously unfit for sound judgements of any kind ! ! !

Oh; and by the way: "Things are very often that simple" eventhough they'll never be as simple as you . . . . . . . .

[marshbags]

Here is a furhter good news story /action the present government are taking.

Even the non believers in the rural areas can begrudge / find fault with this one surely

Thu, November 23, 2006 : Last updated 16:53 pm (Thai local time)

From the Nation :-

Part quote :-

MORTGAGES

Surayud vows to suspend land auctions, help farmers

PM shocked that millions of rai may be sold; 300,000 farmers in debt

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont promised yesterday to suspend any move that would see indebted farmers' land auctioned off by state agencies or enterprises that hold mortgages as collateral for loans.

Currently, 330,000 indebted farmers are on the verge of losing their land because of mortgage loans they have been unable to repay.

Independent academic Somkiat Pongpaiboon said if the Farmers' Reha-bilitation and Development Fund was assigned to buy these debts from moneylenders, it would cost about Bt6 billion.

Surayud, however, explained that his government could take immediate action by suspending impending land auctions by state agencies or enterprises.

He said Deputy Prime Minister and Industry Minister Kosit Panpiemras would ensure the suspension through debt negotiation and other measures.

Surayud said most farmers owed money to the Bank for Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives (BAAC) and other government-owned banks.

Go to the following url please for the full article:-

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/11/23...al_30019723.php

This would never have been put in place by the rural Master Thief and his cronies that,s for sure.

marshbags

[Siripon]

How about the positive impacts?

You mean positice impacts for Thaksin or for the country ? ? ? ? ? ?

If you meant the latter; then you must possess very dense grey-matter, my friend !

This chap Thaksin is nothing more than a thief, albeit on a very grand scale; but still a common thief ! !

Another one blinded by hate.

Things are never that simple. Under Thaksin's reign some of the most memorable human rights violations have been committed, no doubt about that.

On the other hand, without Thaksin Thailand would most definately still wait for its first national health system. A side effect from Thaksin's reliance on voter based power he had to draw previously neglected sectors of society - the rural poor - into the political decision making process. And as the first PM ever in Thailand - with something that at least resembles at a policy based platform in addition to the usual personalised and backdoor politics.

Perhaps the colonel is blinded by love, they say love makes you blind, right?

I really don't think the previously entitled 30 baht scheme, now free, could be considered a national health scheme in anything but name. I remember a poster here, one of the northerners,( Lukamar, Chownah, The Colonel ?),saying how many of his extended family with Aids had received life extending drugs from the programme. Perhaps those in the north received preferential treatment being Thaksin's base, but from my own experience in Bangkok and the north-east, nobody, and I'm including a 70 year old neighbour of our family living off 1000 baht a month sent by one of her 3 sons would use the scheme.

It meant a further wait and a couple of aspirins as treatment.

The junta now have a golden opportunity to include the rural poor in politics: cancelling the requirement of a bachelor degree for an MP, strictly limiting campaign funds for parties, guaranteeing a free and local media, and above all education.

This will all take years of course but let them start now.

[ColPyat]

Perhaps the colonel is blinded by love, they say love makes you blind, right?

I really don't think the previously entitled 30 baht scheme, now free, could be considered a national health scheme in anything but name. I remember a poster here, one of the northerners,( Lukamar, Chownah, The Colonel ?),saying how many of his extended family with Aids had received life extending drugs from the programme. Perhaps those in the north received preferential treatment being Thaksin's base, but from my own experience in Bangkok and the north-east, nobody, and I'm including a 70 year old neighbour of our family living off 1000 baht a month sent by one of her 3 sons would use the scheme.

It meant a further wait and a couple of aspirins as treatment.

The junta now have a golden opportunity to include the rural poor in politics: cancelling the requirement of a bachelor degree for an MP, strictly limiting campaign funds for parties, guaranteeing a free and local media, and above all education.

This will all take years of course but let them start now.

I was that poster who mentioned several relatives getting free AIDS medicine.

Yes, the rural provinces received "preferential treatment", naturally, as there is most of Thailand's poverty concentrated. Still, here in Bangkok i know many people who have received operations, some lifesaving ones, that they would have never been able to afford under the previous system.

I do not dispute that the 30 Baht system needs improvement, especially in funding.

Fact is that no previous government has introduced anything that comes close to this, even though they have had ample time to do so. But why let truth spoil a good story?

Rome wasn't built in a day.

Even for you it should be obvious that the 30 Baht sceme was a step in the right direction, otherwise the present government would have hardly taken it over, and appearantly made it free according to them, even though none of my relatives upcountry receive free treatment yet.

So far the golden opportunities taken by the junta were continuing with almost every Thaksin policy, such as the alcohol issue, the visa issue, or detrimental to the farmers, such as the sudden cancelling of rice subsidies. Which is one of the issues the farmers, who presently camp in front of the ministry of agriculture, are demonstrating for.

Lets just wait and see if there is going to be a 'patiroop', or if it is just the usual empty blather the past military juntas in Thailand came up with.

[JacknDanny]

The following is an update of the white paper list and just a few of Thaksins " Alledged " wrong doings giving more details of the reasons why to debate.

Alledged, there,s a tongue in cheek remark for you courtesy of certain non believers.

Only for now though, it,s just a matter of time, the noose is tightening.

From the Nation at 16.00 today

Thu, November 23, 2006 : Last updated 16:00 pm (Thai local time)

CNS WHITE PAPER

Facts about Thailand's administrative reform on September 19, 2006

The first part of unofficial translation of the white paper issued by the Council for National Security to explain why it toppled the Thaksin government.

Introduction

After democracy was introduced in Thailand more than 70 years ago, Thai people have since learned and understood more and more about the meaning and principles of the democratic regime. Sometimes they had to learn painful costly lessons but those lessons have eventually led to real development of democracy in term of its essence, not only its form. In the past, economic and political powers in Thailand had influence on each other and those who already possessed economic power often found ways to gain political power as well. On the other hand, some who had political power sometimes set policies to economically benefit their allies without considering public benefit first. Many times, general elections merely served as a tool for those with economic power to sustain their political power by citing the votes that they won by either abusing political influence or bribing. It was like what King Rama VI once said that "One with a bigger fist has the adventage".

Distorting democratic principles and lacking good governance, politicians who won power through dishonest electoral process often caused division among various sectors and they did not care to heal the rift, thus leading to growing disunity and potential confrontation among the people. This "Divide and Rule" strategy adversely affected the country's key institutions and was seriously detrimental to the democratic regime.

For the full article please go to:-

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/11/23...es_30019769.php

If you think he is innocent then the moon is made of cheese.

My favourite is still being further investigated, i,m please to observe and not forgotten

" The Extra Judicial Killings " should get him and his coherts if nothing else does.

marshbags

For sure the land deal on Rachada WILL prove his dishonest involvement!!

[pete_r]

How about the positive impacts?

You mean positice impacts for Thaksin or for the country ? ? ? ? ? ?

If you meant the latter; then you must possess very dense grey-matter, my friend !

This chap Thaksin is nothing more than a thief, albeit on a very grand scale; but still a common thief ! !

Another one blinded by hate.

Things are never that simple. Under Thaksin's reign some of the most memorable human rights violations have been committed, no doubt about that.

On the other hand, without Thaksin Thailand would most definately still wait for its first national health system. A side effect from Thaksin's reliance on voter based power he had to draw previously neglected sectors of society - the rural poor - into the political decision making process. And as the first PM ever in Thailand - with something that at least resembles at a policy based platform in addition to the usual personalised and backdoor politics.

Let me assure you, that I am most certainly NOT blinded by hate. I believe, though, after reading your "arguments" that you are surely blinded by total ignorance: you write "without Thaksin Thailand would most definately still wait for its first national health system" - mate; what the keck are you refering to ??? The idiotic and totally bankrupt "30 Baht-Scheme" perhaps ? ? ? ?

Geeeez; I certainly hope your wife controls your bank-accounts, because you're obviously unfit for sound judgements of any kind ! ! !

Oh; and by the way: "Things are very often that simple" eventhough they'll never be as simple as you . . . . . . . .

Your writing comes across as quite hateful though... With all the !!! and ???

[marshbags]

Perhaps the colonel is blinded by love, they say love makes you blind, right?

I really don't think the previously entitled 30 baht scheme, now free, could be considered a national health scheme in anything but name. I remember a poster here, one of the northerners,( Lukamar, Chownah, The Colonel ?),saying how many of his extended family with Aids had received life extending drugs from the programme. Perhaps those in the north received preferential treatment being Thaksin's base, but from my own experience in Bangkok and the north-east, nobody, and I'm including a 70 year old neighbour of our family living off 1000 baht a month sent by one of her 3 sons would use the scheme.

It meant a further wait and a couple of aspirins as treatment.

The junta now have a golden opportunity to include the rural poor in politics: cancelling the requirement of a bachelor degree for an MP, strictly limiting campaign funds for parties, guaranteeing a free and local media, and above all education.

This will all take years of course but let them start now.

I was that poster who mentioned several relatives getting free AIDS medicine.

Yes, the rural provinces received "preferential treatment", naturally, as there is most of Thailand's poverty concentrated. Still, here in Bangkok i know many people who have received operations, some lifesaving ones, that they would have never been able to afford under the previous system.

I do not dispute that the 30 Baht system needs improvement, especially in funding.

Fact is that no previous government has introduced anything that comes close to this, even though they have had ample time to do so. But why let truth spoil a good story?

Rome wasn't built in a day.

Even for you it should be obvious that the 30 Baht sceme was a step in the right direction, otherwise the present government would have hardly taken it over, and appearantly made it free according to them, even though none of my relatives upcountry receive free treatment yet.

So far the golden opportunities taken by the junta were continuing with almost every Thaksin policy, such as the alcohol issue, the visa issue, or detrimental to the farmers, such as the sudden cancelling of rice subsidies. Which is one of the issues the farmers, who presently camp in front of the ministry of agriculture, are demonstrating for.

Lets just wait and see if there is going to be a 'patiroop', or if it is just the usual empty blather the past military juntas in Thailand came up with.

All the policies that satisfy the rights and benefits of Thailand and it,s citizens, and can be made transparent are being updated, if they can be, otherwise they are cancelled to prevent the obvious.

Let us not forget that Thaksin stole adopted the 30 baht health scheme for political purposes, by the way if you truly wish to give kudos out.

The original scheme should be credited to certain academics who,s aim was to provide health cover for all who couldn,t pay for it.

Irrespective of their political persuasions.

The last post i registered ( 126 ) is one such policy that has been updated / modified / introduced and i,m sure the farmers are sensible enough to note the benefits, via the wisdom / concern for their well being courtesy of the present government you refer to as empty blather.

What does " patiroop " mean please, is it a Thai word or reference that i am not familiar with ?

marshbags

Edited November 23, 2006 by marshbags

[ColPyat]

All the policies that satisfy the rights and benefits of Thailand and it,s citizens, can be made transparent are being updated, if they can be, otherwise they are cancelled to prevent the obviopus.

Let us not forget that Thaksin stole adopted the 30 baht health scheme for political purposes, by the way if you truly wish to give kudos out.

The original scheme should be credited to certain academics who,s aim was to provide health cover for all who couldn,t pay for it.

Irrespective of their political persuasions.

The last post i registered ( 126 ) is one such policy that has been updated / modified / introduced and i,m sure the farmers are sensible enough to note the benefits, via the wisdom / concern for their well being courtesy of the present government you refer to as empty blather.

What does " patiroop " mean please, is it a Thai word or reference that i am not familiar with ?

marshbags

'Patiroop' means somthing like 'reform' - as the government defines their coup. Yes, it is a Thai word, and you should be familiar with it if you debate current Thai politics, as no news cast since 2 months is complete without it having been mentioned countless times.

Yes, Thaksin has adopted the 30 Baht scheme from a group of academics, and realised it. Or do you expect that politicians anywhere have their own ideas?

Point is that he in fact did install it, and none of his predecessors have installed anything coming close. And no, not only TRT members or voters were allowed to take advantage of the system, but all did. Or do you imagine that when going to a hospital people had to show their TRT membership card before receiving treatment?

Lets just wait and see how the negotiations between farmers and government go, before making foregone conclusions about farmers accepting the "wisdom/concern" of the present government.

Edited November 23, 2006 by ColPyat

[marshbags]

All the policies that satisfy the rights and benefits of Thailand and it,s citizens, can be made transparent are being updated, if they can be, otherwise they are cancelled to prevent the obviopus.

Let us not forget that Thaksin stole adopted the 30 baht health scheme for political purposes, by the way if you truly wish to give kudos out.

The original scheme should be credited to certain academics who,s aim was to provide health cover for all who couldn,t pay for it.

Irrespective of their political persuasions.

The last post i registered ( 126 ) is one such policy that has been updated / modified / introduced and i,m sure the farmers are sensible enough to note the benefits, via the wisdom / concern for their well being courtesy of the present government you refer to as empty blather.

What does " patiroop " mean please, is it a Thai word or reference that i am not familiar with ?

marshbags

'Patiroop' means somthing like 'reform' - as the government defines their coup. Yes, it is a Thai word, and you should be familiar with it if you debate current Thai politics, as no news cast since 2 months is complete without it having been mentioned countless times.

Yes, Thaksin has adopted the 30 Baht scheme from a group of academics, and realised it. Or do you expect that politicians anywhere have their own ideas?

Point is that he in fact did install it, and none of his predecessors have installed anything coming close. And no, not only TRT members or voters were allowed to take advantage of the system, but all did. Or do you imagine that when going to a hospital people had to show their TRT membership card before receiving treatment?

Lets just wait and see how the negotiations between farmers and government go, before making foregone conclusions about farmers accepting the "wisdom/concern" of the present government.

Genuine thanks for the info regarding Patrioop and i feel sure others will also be enlightened for this.

Still waiting for your thoughts / comments on my 126 post regarding farmer benefits, are they for or against this proposal ?????

marshbags

Edited November 23, 2006 by marshbags

[Plus]

30 baht scheme is too controversial to be put into "positive" category. Rice pledging scheme run up debts on par with infamous oil subsidy. Motorists don't complain too much as they know the score, maybe farmers don't realise yet that money doesn't grow on trees in Thaksin's backyard.

Thaksin's "positives" were socialist schemes that the country can't afford. They were good while they lasted but there were unsustainable.

Politically the country also didn't progress much. For all talk about policies and farmers, the main idea was "vote Thaksin and he'll solve all your problems". The government has become more centralised than ever and people lost all hope of freedoms that were promised by the Constitution - like having a say in running their own lives and communities.

The country was becoming a de facto communist state with government taking complete control of people's lives - socially, politically, economically etc. That's how it looked from down below, while up there at the top a small group of untouchables protected by ideological propaganda were raping and pillaging the country on the scale unmatched before.

IMO, in his analysis of the coup McCargo downplays allegations of corruption and general public discontent and puts undue emphasis on protecting the royalty. It can't be right as far as public is concerned, as lese majeste reason for the coup has completely disappeared from public disourse. No one demands the junta to justify that one.

The Handley's book is banned alright, even before it was published. "Yale" logo doesn't automatically make it accurate in all aspects. Let's say it's apocryphal.

[ColPyat]

Genuine thanks for the info regarding Patrioop and i feel sure others will also be enlightened for this.

Still waiting for your thoughts / comments on my 126 post regarding farmer benefits, are they for or against this proposal ?????

marshbags

marshbags

I'll try to find out when i see them next, maybe tomorrow, or the day after.

I guess they will definately not be against it, but as far as i know they are demonstrating for far reaching policy changes, that include land right issues, flood compensation, rice price, etc.

And they are in for the long haul. Rice harvest finished, and they have time until next rain season starts, because there is not much to do up there now.

I do genuinly hope that they can come to an agreement. The plight of the farmers are very real, and so far no government (incuding Thaksin's!) has made substantial progress on this problem.

Thaksin was rather authoritarian, and Chuan just sat out the demonstrations, stalled negotiations until the farmers had to move back at the start of the rainseason.

[ColPyat]

The country was becoming a de facto communist state with government taking complete control of people's lives

You display a rather neo-con attitide towards public health. Public health schemes are not meant to be profitable other than as an investment into the future generations, and therefore into the nation's human recources. And paying these investments by taxes does not equate "communism".

Most western European countries have different forms of public health systems that are heavily subsidised, and nobody in his right mind would call these countries "communist", or even "socialist".

Edited November 23, 2006 by ColPyat

[Plus]

This is not a thread to go into detail of healthcare, but undepaid and overworked doctors do not generally exist in Europe. They are not forced to work for three years in rural hospitals for pittance before they are allowed to leave for private pastures.

It works both ways - no one in his right mind would compare 30 baht scheme with French healthcare, for example.

[ColPyat]

This is not a thread to go into detail of healthcare, but undepaid and overworked doctors do not generally exist in Europe. They are not forced to work for three years in rural hospitals for pittance before they are allowed to leave for private pastures.

It works both ways - no one in his right mind would compare 30 baht scheme with French healthcare, for example.

Given Thailand's problems i think it is a very good idea to force doctors to work for three years in rural hospitals (i may be mistaken here, but as far as i can remember that was so already pre-Thaksin).

Fortunately there are still some doctors here who see their profession not just as a quick way to get rich in private pastures, and do prefer to work in rural hospitals, otherwise those villagers would have no doctors whatsoever to treat them. But given your posts, that appears not be an issue with you.

And if you believe that there are no overworked and underpaid doctors in Europe then i think you should talk with some doctors who work in emergency stations of hospitals there, who don't have their own private practises.

A quick addition:

I don't know much about the French system, but from what i have heard the 30 baht scheme somewhat resembles the British National Health System (of course by far not as extensive or well funded).

The UK then must be according to you another Communist Country.

Edited November 23, 2006 by ColPyat

[cclub75]

It works both ways - no one in his right mind would compare 30 baht scheme with French healthcare, for example.

No one would do it indeed : because it's not 30 THB we pay, but thousands of euros per people !

People are so stupid : they pay 22 euros to visit a doctor. Then the "system" pay them back (19 euros).

They think "our healthcare system is really, really good. It works fine".

But they dont't see that on their salary slip, per month, the total "social taxes" = 48 % !

You don't believe it ? Check the file attached....

So, yes, I agree with you : France is indeed a socialist country.

End of rant, and off topic.

PS : and of course, at the end of the year you have to pay the regular "income tax" too. But that's another story. Another socialist story

[sriracha john]

Whether it's black or white, things are stacking up against the wandering one:

Democrat 'black paper' on Thaksin graft

The Democrat Party, in opposition at the time of the military coup, is preparing what it calls a "black paper" which will expose alleged corruption in projects under the Thaksin administration, Democrat deputy leader Alongkorn Polabutr said today. The document will highlight 44 projects. It is to be distributed to Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont, the assets scrutiny committee and members of Council for National Security (CNS). Mr Alongkorn said the document is to be published in order to provide authorities with information to convict wrongdoers. Mr Alongkorn said the party will publish 10,000 issues of the document, both in Thai and English. The printing is hoped to be completed next month. According to Mr Alongkorn, the Democrat internal scrutiny committee found 44 corruption cases, which could be divided into four categories -- corruption on policy level, corruption at Suvarnabhumi airport, corruption among family members and relatives of Mr Thaksin's cabinet, and corruption on projects initiated by ministers in the cabinet.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=114429

[Plus]

Perhaps Thaksin's system of government is better described as fascism, not communism.

Just look at this definition:

"A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism." --American Heritage Dictionary (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1983)

[sriracha john]

Perhaps Thaksin's system of government is better described as fascism, not communism.

Just look at this definition:

"A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism." --American Heritage Dictionary (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1983)

Tyrannical Despot, as well, works for me, too.

ty-ran-ni-cal

- adjective

1. of or characteristic of a tyrant.

2. unjustly cruel, harsh, or severe; or arbitrary

des-pot

- noun

1. A ruler with absolute power.

2. A person who wields power oppressively.

dictionary.com

Edited November 23, 2006 by sriracha john

[Plus]

Well, I was really thinking how communists and fascists are similar in practice. Ok, there's no private business in communism, it's all run by the state, but so is in fascism - the business IS the state.

[ColPyat]

Perhaps Thaksin's system of government is better described as fascism, not communism.

Just look at this definition:

"A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism." --American Heritage Dictionary (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1983)

Thaksin's government definately had some slightly fascist influences (as most Thai governments so far had to some degree), nevertheless The TRT was a democratically elected government that did not annihilate the election process once in power, unlike Mossolini or Franco.

However faulty the election process was, every elected Thai government was elected by similarly faulty processes, and i doubt that this will change soon, regradless the a bit too optmistic and self congatulatory views of the present (unelected) government.

[Johpa]

Perhaps Thaksin's system of government is better described as fascism, not communism.

Just look at this definition:

"A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism." --American Heritage Dictionary (Boston:Houghton Mifflin, 1983)

Really now, neither Taksin, nor his predecessors, nor his opponents such as Sondhi, have any ideology at all other than to maximize their own profits, line their own pockets, from taking political office. None of these people care about human rights violations or about avoiding taxes. One might think they are capitalists, but they really don't believe in a totally free market as Thailand is a country that seems to love monopolies, a direction that capitalism seems to inevitably favor at times. Taksin was no fascist as is usually associated with the term and certainly no communist. If anything, his overriding ideology was greed. He became too greedy and finally began to take such a large slice of the pie that all the other diners, those who kin muang, began to worry about a Taksin dynasty, a family that always has access to the largest slice of the pie to dine upon, and that is not a scenario that the other diners would tolerate. Imagine if Bill Gates were to use his money to both buy Halliburton and run for the US presidency.

At least Thailand has made some strides over the past century to have some democratic institutions involving the public vote. At the very least it forces all the candidates to give some notice to the 60%+ of the electorate that constitute the rural poor. This might at times simply show itself in the handing out some money for a vote (from the perspective of the rural poor: I am poor today and will be poor tomorrow and nothing anyone does in Bangkok is going to change anything in my life so I will sell my vote to the highest bidder) but more often that money goes through the traditional "patron-client" system, with funds being handed out by the Kamnaan or headman in exchange for a future favor. Or, as we have seen with Taksin, it shows itself as some sort of "populist" government program, programs that return money to those whom the Bangkok elite despise the most, the ethnic Tai and minority rural folks.

But now those in Bangkok, and their allies in the new ex-pat community, are bemoaning that these programs are bankrupting the country's coffers. Yet these programs represent a mere pittance relative to the money lost to the government by this same elite who avoid taxes and shift profits, both corporate profits and gray market profits, offshore. It is a bit of a conundrum for the likes of opposition leader Sondhi Limthongkul , who wish to maintain the democratic element in Thai politics but are repulsed by the need to somehow include the rural electorate into their political agenda.

Edited November 23, 2006 by Johpa

[hammered]

Stepping back and taking an idea from another poster. It really doesnt matter what good someone did if they broke a law or regulation or were corrupt. If, as is looking increasingly likely, tax avoidance was practiced by Mr. Thaksin and his family that is not excused by any good deed real or imagined. That spin is still put out by TRT's remaining spin doctors, canvassers, and Mr. Thaksin's personal acolytes, but in reality it is just there to try and confuse.

Then if we get into egregious human rights abuses involving deaths, of course introducing a "national health service" does not excuse one for these actions. Equally to argue that others have done the same in the past is again a false debate. At some point a primeminister will be held accountable for their actions in Thailand. The question remains is now that time?

We are getting into completely false debates.

If we want to debate the policies of the Thaksin government that may or may not have helped the country, and this is an interesting area of debate, we should start a new thread. Whatver these policies are they do not excuse abuses, which should be judged on their own under relevent laws and regulations.

[Plus]

Really now, neither Taksin, nor his predecessors, nor his opponents such as Sondhi, have any ideology at all other than to maximize their own profits, line their own pockets, from taking political office. None of these people care about human rights violations or about avoiding taxes.

"Everyone is as bad as Thaksin, there's no reason to single him out".

This argument always pops out when there's an urgent need to escape the punishment.

It's an extremely cynical point of view as well. Siripon once made a good argument against it - if Sondhi was driven by greed and not by ideology, he would have never left Thaksin and embarked on fighting TRT almost singlehandedly. And if not for eventual support of thousands upon thousands of Thais, he would have surely lost. Lost not only his fight, but his business as well.

One needs to defy all reason and evidence to claim that, for example, Democrats and TRT, Chuan and Thaksin, are essentially the same, and it's also offensive to the motives and intellegence of hundreds of thousands of PAD supporters, many of whom spent months campaigning daily, initially against all odds.

People haven't tried nationalism in defence of Thaksin yet, but I think it's just around the corner.

>>>>>>>>>

Germans love Germany would be a lovely name for a fascist party.

[ColPyat]

Really now, neither Taksin, nor his predecessors, nor his opponents such as Sondhi, have any ideology at all other than to maximize their own profits, line their own pockets, from taking political office. None of these people care about human rights violations or about avoiding taxes.

"Everyone is as bad as Thaksin, there's no reason to single him out".

This argument always pops out when there's an urgent need to escape the punishment.

It's an extremely cynical point of view as well. Siripon once made a good argument against it - if Sondhi was driven by greed and not by ideology, he would have never left Thaksin and embarked on fighting TRT almost singlehandedly. And if not for eventual support of thousands upon thousands of Thais, he would have surely lost. Lost not only his fight, but his business as well.

One needs to defy all reason and evidence to claim that, for example, Democrats and TRT, Chuan and Thaksin, are essentially the same, and it's also offensive to the motives and intellegence of hundreds of thousands of PAD supporters, many of whom spent months campaigning daily, initially against all odds.

People haven't tried nationalism in defence of Thaksin yet, but I think it's just around the corner.

>>>>>>>>>

Germans love Germany would be a lovely name for a fascist party.

Sondhi Limthongkul's financial interests were threatened by Thaksin, which has led to a fall out between the former buddies. If you look at Sondhi's past history, and present conduct at Channel 9 it is very clear to establish that he was and is driven by greed, and not much else. As much as Thaksin Sondhi is the personification of crony capitalism. Just because the one is a corrupt megalomaniac does not make his opponent any lesser so.

Sondhi was clearly a supporter of Thaksin, especially during the time most of Thaksin's corruption allegations stem from, during the time the grossest human right violations happened. He had his cronies, often former managers and employees of his own substantial business empire in key positions of Thaksin's government and there operated clearly in what is defined as crony capitalsm.

As much as Thaksin he adopted ideology and tactics of mass psychology to further his own business interests primarily, and not to develop democratisation of Thailand.

As much as Thaksin he plays lipservice to democracy, but is really just out for himself.

If for once you get away from the personalisation of politics in Thailand, then you might find out that primarily a long establsihed system of ever adapting Sakdina is at fault, and not just individuals who because of the existence of this system are given the opportunity to enrich themselves on the back of the majority of the population.

It is ironic that especially you bring the argument of nationalism into this discussion. All your defense of the hold onto power of the old elites so far has been nationalist based with a strong scent of cultural chauvinism with your blind acceptance of a more extreme system of sakdina than even the royalist fractions propose. And mixed with a rather right wing libertarian nationalism, judging from your appearant rejection of any form of social security.

[rad1958]

Good points you touch about the microcredit facility (I'm sure the B'desh guys is making some money out of his business) and general progress Thailand made under Thaksin's rule. So he made some money for himself and family in the process. Which politician does not exploit power ? Blair, Bush, Howard, etc. etc. ? Who are we kidding ? Largely, the Asian pollies have often brazenly embezzled huge amount in scandals (e.g., Indian ones, Philipine ones, etc.) and the Western ones while using their position to the advantage of their near and dear ones have almost always continued to contribute to teh public infrastructure and economic progress. So if Thaksin made a buck or two, he also did a lot that move Thailand forward in many ways and differs from the general brand of the Asian pollies in that sense. So will this world ever have a breed of selfless public-serving pollies ? Do we think the current Thai ones are selfless ?

So what is the current regime doing ? Are they not appointing buddies into positions of power ? Or perhaps they are just going to push all decision making back under the heavy red-tape and resulting corruption to put this country back a few decades. Good luck Thailand

Intersting list. The only problem is proving it. Proving that men in uniform have appoited their friends in state enterprises and have breached the trust of their sharholders is much easier. How about trippling the economic growth? Or having been able to reduce the death of infants in half? Having been able to reduce the tea money that the friends of the couptakers asked for a place in university or demonstration schools? having supplies the poor with microcredit (not a bad thing given the nobel prize this year), or having been able to help out the poor when their was a disaster (Have not yet seen a hirake in uniform this time, maybe they were too busy). Or what about having reduced the number of children addicted to drugs. And did Thaksin not get his satellite license from the last military government, as well the mobile phone license? Some people must have profitted? It is so easy to make a list, substantiating is much more of a headache.

Wait till that other general Chavalit makes a list about those other generals, that would be more fun.

By the way what happened with the freedom of speech, that Sondhi could use to criticize Thaksin? Why aren't we treated with the same courtesy?

Just wondering

[Plus]

Sondhi could have always swallow his pride and go on with business as usual, as everyone else done before him, yet he choose to confront Thaksin. That is not a sign of greed but convictions and idealism.

Rad, all the same argument again - every one is the same, no one is different from Thaksin. Yet somehow hundreds of thousands of Thais took to the streets, for the first time in fifteen years, and Thaksin was eventually ousted by the army.