US national... retirement income means ????

[maewang99]

it's real easy for defined benefit plans... income is the benefit paid out, usually monthly.  but most of us in the private sector nowadays have defined contribution plans.. the benefit payout is zero.   there's a minimum amount you have to withdraw but that is not a "benefit" nor is it income.  if the IRA or 401k has passive dividend and interest income, that I guess would be income... but that's not what our monthly benefit is.... which in these plans is simply whatever we take out.... which could be anything up to our entire balance, at any time.

 

so how does the US embassy or consulate figure out what my pension is?

 

I always have done the 800k bank account, as it is simple and I don't have to go anywhere nor take my Thai wife with me either.  just one piece of paper from my Thai retail bank.  couldn't be easier.

 

but what if I wanted to do the income thing, or like another guy did, since the account is supposed to be active and some of the Thai immigration staff look for activity... I bumped below 800k... and went to the US consulate for the income thing....

 

Edited October 25, 2016 by maewang99

[ubonjoe]

You do an income affidavit at the embassy which is sworn as true and correct in front of a consular officer when you sign it. They ask for no proof of you income.

A few immigration office might want to see proof of it. The best proof to show is a bank book showing the funds coming into the country.

[Jingthing]

I get what you're asking. You're asking if dividend/interest income can be claimed as income. There is no specific Thai immigration rule saying you can't. Obviously defined government or private PENSIONS are the more "standard" kind of retirement income. Of course from the U.S. taxation POV, interest/dividend income within an IRA/401K is treated differently than when it is out of those retirement account vehicles, but that's not something Thai immigration would be very savvy about.

Here's another fun one ... when you take money out of an IRA, you claim that as income that year for tax purposes.

It's money you already had ... so is that really "income" as far as Thai immigration rules? Arguably not, but again, Thai immigration can't possible have such specific technical rules for the peculiarities of every national finance system.

As said, you can claim what you think is defensible, the U.S. embassy takes your word about that and you swear it's true to them, but always keep in mind Thai immigration always has the right (doesn't mean they usually do) to demand evidence that your claims are true. 

So welcome to grey area land. 

 

Another issue with dividend/interest income unless you're taking about a defined annuity, it will change all the time. So what do you claim exactly? Your dividend/interest LAST tax year or your guestimate for current year? I really don't know. 

Edited October 25, 2016 by Jingthing

[Pib]

No, the U.S. embassy does not figure it out for you.  "You" fill out the income affidavit and then swear to it/sign it in front of the consulate officer who then notarizes it.   Notarization does not mean the info is true; it only means the person filling out the form (you) swore under penalty of law it was true.   And Thai immigration may/can still ask for supporting docs/proof of the income above and beyond the income affidavit.   Only use income you can support with documentation (i.e., distribution statements, bank statements, financial statements, etc)...always use the most recent documentation available and preferably not over 6 months old (if possible).   And the only reason I say "not over 6 months old" is because Thai immigration requires the embassy income affidavit to be no more than 6 months old.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Pib

[IMA_FARANG]

As U.S. retiree i get a Social security pension once i am over 65 years of age.

I  filed for mine in 2010 and now that am i staying in Thailand i have it direct deposited  to my Bangkok Bank account monthly.

I disclose this income on a U.S. embassy income affirmation statement which the Thai immigration accepts when i file for my annual retirement extension with the Thai immigration.

At present there is no confirmation needed for the embassy income affimation report, but i do get a yearly penefits statement by mail from the U.S. Social Security Administration.

Although it is not reqired by the Thai immigration I photocopy this and  have i ready to show them if they ask,.

Only once in 6 years have i been asked to show it as "futher proof".

As the moeny comes directly to my Bangkok Bank acount, my bank passbook could also act as a "proof" of my monthly pension income, as it shows the date, amount, and foriegn of the funds deposited to my account.

But basically, once i had it established monthly, thai immigration takes my income satement on faith alone each year at renewal time.

That may not be the case forever, but so far it is working well.

 

[Jingthing]

I would say claim what you think you are capable of credibly DEFENDING if challenged by Thai immigration. That doesn't mean they're required to accept it but I doubt you'll have legal issues with Thai immigration if you can show reasonably credible evidence, so in that case the worse that would happen is a declined application. Which is bad, but could be worse. 

 

If you're looking for foolproof rules on what Thai immigration will always accept or always reject in the terms of your question about income from interest/dividends and PROOF for that if asked, I think you're out of luck. Nobody can give you that. 

Edited October 25, 2016 by Jingthing

[NancyL]

I think Thai Immigration expect that we retirees receive regular pensions of a fixed amount each month.  The idea that someone is pulling out of their 401K on an irregular basis could be a head-scratcher for them if they ask for back-up documents to support the amount claimed in your Income Letter, which is written in terms of monthly income, i.e. you attest that you receive so much money each month from the U.S. gov't or other sources.

 

For Hubby, he receives both a monthly Social Security benefit and a monthly defined benefit payment from a private pension.  We augment these regular monthly payments with pulls from our 401Ks from time-to-time, but these are irregular.  The amount Hubby claims on his Income Letter is just the amount of his regular monthly income from the two pensions, one private and one from the gov't.  The total is in excess of 65,000 baht, so he's got that covered and can show a pattern of deposits in a bank book of the same amount each month from these two sources.

 

As for me, we actually did pull an excess of 800,000 baht last year from my 401Ks, (and didn't touch Hubby's)  but it was in a couple of large draws. (I don't receive a regular monthly pension yet, still below age 65 )  Rather than waltz into the U.S. Consulate and swear an income letter this January when it was time to do my annual visa extension, we decided it was best to keep my 800,000 baht at Bangkok Bank and use that method for my financial proof rather than counting n a U.S.statements from our investment firm that I had an income in excess of 800,000 baht last year.  I can barely understand the reams of paper we receive from them, I don't expect Thai Immigration to puzzle it out.

[Jingthing]

I still think this is a grey area.

For example if doing a combo application with 600K in bank account and 200K in claimed income, it seems to me there would be less scrutiny about the 200K and claiming interest/dividend income might be OK. 

I do think claiming withdraws from IRAs as income even though it is seen as such by the IRS is most probably pushing it too far. It's not really income ... it was already your money from long ago. 

I wouldn't go so far as recommending people use interest/dividend income for this purpose, but in cases where some applicants might NEED to, I don't see a big harm in trying if you're prepared to be declined.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Jingthing

[Evilbaz]

I think some people are over-thinking this.

In my experience Thais consider "income" to simply be money you receive (gross).

 

Of course, don't swear a false Affidavit (it's a Federal offence) and be prepared to back up that Affidavit if asked.

 

[55Jay]

OP, you said you've been using the 800k in the bank method.  Do you use that money throughout the year for living expenses, then top it up again before the next annual extension? 

 

Or does the 800k just sit in the Thai bank, and you obtain living expenses via US ATM Card, bank transfers, etc., as required? 

 

The latter course of action could be massaged to create a pattern of inbound monthly "income" into a Thai account in support of the income affidavit.  As others have said, and I've experienced first hand, Thai I/Os are generally satisfied by the USE Affidavit at face value.... but still good to keep your ducks in row.

 

[Jingthing]

34 minutes ago, Evilbaz said:

I think some people are over-thinking this.

In my experience Thais consider "income" to simply be money you receive (gross).

 

Of course, don't swear a false Affidavit (it's a Federal offence) and be prepared to back up that Affidavit if asked.

 

I don't follow your point.

 

So you're saying it's OK to claim these things as income for immigration?

 

Dividends?

Interest?

Withdraws from IRAs? 

 

"Over-thinking" or not, an applicant considering using those things actually does need to "think" about whether using those things is reasonable and defensible, or not. 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2016 by Jingthing

[maewang99]

so it might have to be supported in two ways, and no one seems to have a clear definition of either.  that a defined benefit is "regular" but private pensions are not (which are now going to be predominantly defined contribution only) because you are not locked into a certain amount that you do not control, in your home currency.. doesn't really sound right. the defined contribution might even be more "regular" cause it can be adjusted. for Thailand, I guess I would bet money coming in from outside from my retirement accounts is retirement income. plain and simple on that side. is that pretty much it?  

Edited October 25, 2016 by maewang99

[ubonjoe]

Just now, Jingthing said:

I don't follow your point.

 

So you're saying it's OK to claim these things as income for immigration?

 

Dividends?

Interest?

Withdraws from IRAs? 

 

 

Yes

I agree with him. There is no rule that the income has to be from a pension.

I am ware of people with extensions based upon retirement that are working overseas on a rotation and use that income to meet the income requirement.

Immigration primary concern is that you are not using income generated here illegally.

As I wrote before a Thai bank book show funds coming into the country is the best backup proof you can show.

I show a the exact amount of my SS income on my affidavit and can show immigration the same amount going into my account every month minus the transfer fee. I just discovered that I will to be able show a different number from the past two years next year since I will get a .3% increase in 2017.

[Jingthing]

I get what you're saying UJ in practical terms, but I still find the idea of people claiming discretionary IRA withdraws as income to be on the edge of a kind of fraudulent claim. 

I don't see a similar ethical question with interest/dividends from non-retirement accounts. 

Also consider stock/bond sales outside retirement accounts. The IRS taxes the profit ... but to claim the gross for Thai immigration purposes, seriously, people really think that's OK?

Of course, people might say, what do ETHICS have to with it? 

 

To add, my first post agreed with you as well, obviously, that there is NO RULE that income has to be from pensions. That's definite. What's not so definite is what is actually LEGIT to be claimed as income beyond pensions? 

 

So bottom line my POV is this, while we all agree the income doesn't need to be from pensions, you still need to make a judgement call on income OTHER than pensions whether you are comfortable claiming it. Some income flows, such as rental income on outside Thailand properties will obviously be 100 percent legit, other types, possibly not so legit.  There is no rule book from immigration to check about this ... people need to make their OWN calls on the details. 

Edited October 25, 2016 by Jingthing

[maewang99]

some of you figure everyone's SS check is well over the threshold.... and maybe with the current fx rate that's not too unusual.... but I'm trying to get my arms around this because my SS check I have to guess won't clearly jump over it.... and the rest is defined contribution withdrawals. 

 

or I stick with the 800k thing.  it is simple. but it's stuck in a Thai retail account :-( 

Edited October 25, 2016 by maewang99

[wayned]

The US Income Affidavit specifically states:

 

 

I also affirm that I receive US$ ___________every month from the

United States Government and/or other sources. I am applying for a Thai visa/ an extension of a current Thai visa and any assistance you can provide in this request will be greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

There is nothing that requires you to state the source of the money nor is there any statement that says that you bring that amount into Thailand every month.

Edited October 25, 2016 by wayned

[Jingthing]

True that, and we all agree with that.

But possible issues may come up if and when Thai immigration demands the applicants to support that claim.

They have every legal right to do that.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Jingthing

[maewang99]

that's it.  I'm ex-enrolled IRS and have an MS from Golden Gate.  thank you for the actual US statement... I also don't like having to go our own office burearacy even more so.... but for this maybe!  for no reason I can put my finger on, at least on a public forum.  so.... both are easy.  we're not talking about a particular kind of income... just money basically... but from our own accounts.  and if those accounts were funded based on employment.... and are defined under US law as retirement pension schemes... it's a slam dunk for both Thai and US. I am quite sure now because of how it is worded in the US statement. thank you! in fact, this whole discussion is why the US wording is so simple.. they don't want to go here.

 

what I'm saying now.... IRA and 401k withdrawals work.  just as good as the old pension system... of course! otherwise it would be a headache all around. 

Edited October 25, 2016 by maewang99

[NancyL]

You might want to set up your IRA and 401K withdrawals to come into your bank account in a regular monthly pattern of the same amount each month.  

 

I do know people in Chiang Mai who have been asked to provide back-up documentation and it's the Thai bank books they want to look at, not the IRS tax returns, or investment account statement from the U.S.  

 

I have a friend who claims an Income Letter based on the fact that she "could" withdraw 65,000 baht/month from her U.S. based investments, but doesn't.  She lives on less.  After all nothing says you have to spend 65,000 baht/month in Thailand.   I really think what she is doing is far outside the "spirit" of what the Thai authorities want.  When I pointed this out, she said she'd show them her brokerage account statements detailing her net worth if asked.  She's been lucky so far.  

[Mrjlh]

I've been here 10 years. I've always used the sworn affidavit method. Only once was I ever questioned as to the accuracy of my statement. That was at the US Embassy.  Simple question from some one who wanted support documents as they have the right to ask how do I prove it. Simple answer: Showed a copy of my IRS income tax 1040A with a simply statement..."You don't lie to IRS!"  Simple proof and never an argument. Sworn statement works.  A 1040 can be filled out "on-line" and printed out. Don't over think the issue.

[little mary sunshine]

You must bring proof of:. Your monthly Social Security  Benefits.

                                              Any State Pension Benefits

.                                              Investment Income Statements, Stock,

.                                              Mutual Funds, 401,403 Benefits

 You sign an affivadav, under penalty of purjury that the information 

is true.   There is a $50 Fee for the service and Notary Service.  They

usually do not ask for proof of your income, this has been the practice

in the past.  (. This year I know of only two people who were asked to

submit proof, something new perhaps,). It is better to take your proof

with you, just in case they ask!   

 

You our must first make on online appointment with the Embassy.

[Srikcir]

19 hours ago, IMA_FARANG said:

i do get a yearly penefits statement by mail from the U.S. Social Security Administration.

You can also get your benefit statements and Form SSA-1099 online for sake of convenience. 

However, if you connect outside the USA you can only access the SSA web site via a VPN using a US gateway. Be sure not to elect the option for an activation code sent to your cell phone.

[Fore Man]

I've waded through all the posts on this topic but find that I have a different way of receiving and spending money in the Kingdom.  Yes, like many I have multiple income streams derived from military retirement, VA disability, private company pension, SS and my IRA minimum required distribution.  But...we exist here fully by: 1) making periodic ATM withdrawals from our US checking account (at a favorable foreign exchange rate and with refunds paid for exorbitant ATM fees charged by Thai banks), and 2) buying groceries and other items of local expense using a US credit card.  We use the ATM money to defray cash expenses on the local economy where our credit card cannot be used. We haven't felt the need to open a Thai bank account and in my 12 years spent here, never felt any compulsion to do so.  But I agree with other posters...it is in your favor to take along copies of all banking and pension documents to prove yourself. I used to hoard my ATM slips too, but no longer go to that extreme because nobody ever asked for them and I can show the withdrawals on my US banking statement.

[gk10002000]

18 hours ago, wayned said:

The US Income Affidavit specifically states:

 

 

I also affirm that I receive US$ ___________every month from the

United States Government and/or other sources. I am applying for a Thai visa/ an extension of a current Thai visa and any assistance you can provide in this request will be greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

There is nothing that requires you to state the source of the money nor is there any statement that says that you bring that amount into Thailand every month.

If only it were that simple.  As others have said, the Thais historically expected some sort of monthly pension, retirement payout.  In my case, I have a traditional IRA, a Roth IRA and a regular Brokerage account.  I get basically 48,000 a year in dividends and interest total across all three accounts.   Now since some of my stocks pay quarterly dividends, I do NOT get the same amount every month.  I plan to to average out the 48k over 12 months and assert that I get $4k a month.  Technically that could be interpreted as not quite true given the wording of the US embassy affidavit form.  Now my Roth IRA earnings are tax free.  My Traditional IRA dividends and interest will be taxable.  So right there is an issue, because just getting some money doesn't account for the end of the year taxation that has to be done.  Most of the dividends and interest in ny regular brokerage account are tax free since by design I keep those monies invested in tax free municipal bonds and funds.  Note that I do not plan to withdraw any principal or balance, which as others have posted some may intend to use that as "income".  Now having said that, if one did take money out of their traditional IRA it in general would be taxable, or at least reported as taxable income, and then depending on your tax situation, deductions, capital losses, etc.  you might get to keep, you might a tax refund, or you may owe in taxes!   I don't want to tell the Thais or the US embassy how to account for things.  There are so many ways and variations either considering taxes or not considering taxes.  

 

 All you can do is bring your documentation, make a cogent argument and hope for the best.  Etrade, my primary brokerage has confirmed they will issue me a letter asserting that as of a certain date, my estimated income from dividends, interest, etc. as calculated from their income estimator is xxxxx.  And of course I can print out the output of the income estimator itself if more details are needed.   The calculator lists the stocks, bonds, shares, etc, and estimated income for every month, and the total for the entire year is summed up at the end.  It really is a nice simple feature of their site

Edited October 26, 2016 by gk10002000
addition

[gk10002000]

40 minutes ago, Fore Man said:

I've waded through all the posts on this topic but find that I have a different way of receiving and spending money in the Kingdom.  Yes, like many I have multiple income streams derived from military retirement, VA disability, private company pension, SS and my IRA minimum required distribution.  But...we exist here fully by: 1) making periodic ATM withdrawals from our US checking account (at a favorable foreign exchange rate and with refunds paid for exorbitant ATM fees charged by Thai banks), and 2) buying groceries and other items of local expense using a US credit card.  We use the ATM money to defray cash expenses on the local economy where our credit card cannot be used. We haven't felt the need to open a Thai bank account and in my 12 years spent here, never felt any compulsion to do so.  But I agree with other posters...it is in your favor to take along copies of all banking and pension documents to prove yourself. I used to hoard my ATM slips too, but no longer go to that extreme because nobody ever asked for them and I can show the withdrawals on my US banking statement.

A fine method you are doing.  I like it very much and it is much as I plan to do.  I am thinking of opening a local Thai bank account as such a thing can come in handy.  But it will have way less than any 10K USD or any other amount that would require any reporting to the USA.   Social security starts in 3 years, so I will keep busy until then.

[maewang99]

the thread is still going? put Social Security to the side, it might not be over the threshold for some of us even if it is today if fx rates continue to normalize.  just look at the story this morning about CLMV's ditching the dollar... etc..... there is no difference between a public sector pension (or old style pension) that gives the retiree a "regular" monthly payment.... and a withdrawal of funds from a 401K or IRA account because the old style pension is not just a payment for earnings on fund assets... it's a payment.. a payout... so... while more and more folks are gonna be relying on defined contribution plans not SS or old style pensions.  if you make "regular" withdrawals from a defined contribution plan, i.e. an IRA.... that is not any different from an old style pension.  IRA's are defined in the US law as a retirement pension scheme. the passive income an IRA makes is not the only amount you get to withdraw, in fact, you must withdraw amounts but on a tax year basis... not monthly.  so I guess... I have to... that if you regularly withdraw from your IRA that is a receipt of money... and more than merely complies with both the US and Thai law and regulations.  notwithstanding any other sources of income.. i.e. Social Security or old style pensions... which are fixed usually... but in US dollars... not Thai Baht and that is something to think about. an IRA is not fixed... but it can be "regular".  and we get to swear to that. but this is Thailand.... so I wanted to survey what really goes on.. looks like the same ol same ol.

Edited October 26, 2016 by maewang99

[Dan5]

1 hour ago, gk10002000 said:

If only it were that simple.  As others have said, the Thais historically expected some sort of monthly pension, retirement payout.  In my case, I have a traditional IRA, a Roth IRA and a regular Brokerage account.  I get basically 48,000 a year in dividends and interest total across all three accounts.   Now since some of my stocks pay quarterly dividends, I do NOT get the same amount every month.  I plan to to average out the 48k over 12 months and assert that I get $4k a month.  Technically that could be interpreted as not quite true given the wording of the US embassy affidavit form.  Now my Roth IRA earnings are tax free.  My Traditional IRA dividends and interest will be taxable.  So right there is an issue, because just getting some money doesn't account for the end of the year taxation that has to be done.  Most of the dividends and interest in ny regular brokerage account are tax free since by design I keep those monies invested in tax free municipal bonds and funds.  Note that I do not plan to withdraw any principal or balance, which as others have posted some may intend to use that as "income".  Now having said that, if one did take money out of their traditional IRA it in general would be taxable, or at least reported as taxable income, and then depending on your tax situation, deductions, capital losses, etc.  you might get to keep, you might a tax refund, or you may owe in taxes!   I don't want to tell the Thais or the US embassy how to account for things.  There are so many ways and variations either considering taxes or not considering taxes.  

 

 All you can do is bring your documentation, make a cogent argument and hope for the best.  Etrade, my primary brokerage has confirmed they will issue me a letter asserting that as of a certain date, my estimated income from dividends, interest, etc. as calculated from their income estimator is xxxxx.  And of course I can print out the output of the income estimator itself if more details are needed.   The calculator lists the stocks, bonds, shares, etc, and estimated income for every month, and the total for the entire year is summed up at the end.  It really is a nice simple feature of their site

I think you are vastly over thinking this.  I 've never heard of and can't imagine immigration wanting to go over your finances in the USA. They want to know that you have an income of at least 65,000 Baht/month coming into Thailand. They want you to be bringing money into Thailand.

[Dan5]

2 minutes ago, Dan5 said:

I think you are vastly over thinking this.  I 've never heard of and can't imagine immigration wanting to go over your finances in the USA. They want to know that you have an income of at least 65,000 Baht/month coming into Thailand. They want you to be bringing money into Thailand.

And technically bringing it into Thailand isn't even required. But if they did get concerned and wanted to check things, money coming into Thailand is likely what they'd want to see. But as far as I know and based on my own experience living here, its very rare for them to want anything more than the basic 800,00 Baht in a bank account or a proof of income from the embassy.

[gk10002000]

1 minute ago, Dan5 said:

I think you are vastly over thinking this.  I 've never heard of and can't imagine immigration wanting to go over your finances in the USA. They want to know that you have an income of at least 65,000 Baht/month coming into Thailand. They want you to be bringing money into Thailand.

I was just pointing out some technicalities.  I do think that what Thailand originally wanted to see, and in some cases recently  have read where they really do want to see the 65K baht coming into Thailand.  They want to see transfers, deposits from overseas etc.  There are current posts here on Thai visa where immigration queried people for proof of incoming funds having actually come in.   However, many people don't move money that way or that regularly.   Some people get yearly annuities.  Some people get insurance settlements such as my friend does that gets a structured payout every 5 years.  The wording of the US Embassy Affidavit, if taken literally is worded poorly.  It should say something more along the lines of I receive and can transfer as needed, or have a yearly income of, etc.  As written it doesn't say monthly average. 

[Suradit69]

21 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I don't follow your point.

 

So you're saying it's OK to claim these things as income for immigration?

 

Dividends?

Interest?

Withdraws from IRAs? 

 

"Over-thinking" or not, an applicant considering using those things actually does need to "think" about whether using those things is reasonable and defensible, or not. 

 

 

When I hand over my income affidavit to immigrations I attach Social Security statement, Pension statement and brokerage statement showing distributions I have taken.

 

They have never questioned or commented on it. All three are income available to me to spend in Thailand and the sum roughly aligns with the money I deposit monthly into my Bangkok Bank account as shown on copies of bank book.

 

On the income affidavit the amount shown is included in the statement:

"I also affirm that I receive USD $ ________________ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources."