UK government Brexit bill defeated again

[JAG]

Well I am an ordinary person and in this instance they certainly represent my views.  May will continue on her mission  and has shown by sacking Heseltine that she is determined to not tolerate anyone's interference.  A strong leader is a good thing but even a strong leader needs the ability to listen to others and accept criticism when it is justified.  

Hmm, that's the second time Heseltine has been sacked by a female Tory prime minister over Europe.

Is it becoming a habit?

I remember him turning up at Greenham Common, mincing about in a borrowed combat jacket. Condescending ponce who needed a haircut...

[Grouse]

The Duke of Wellington

 

It was an amusing contribution, a witticism, an amuse bouche, a tittilation, a crack, a laugh

 

Sorry I forgot this is TV  

Edited March 8, 2017 by Grouse

[JAG]

The Duke of Wellington
 
It was an amusing contribution, a witticism, an amuse bouche, a tittilation, a crack, a laugh
 
Sorry I forgot this is TV  

Not at all
I thought it deserved a wry response...

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

As I say, you don't understand

AS I say I DO understand. It seems on this subject you have tunnel vision.,

And I don't resort to calling people with an opposite view "numpties" because I have no argument worth the name.

Try changing to a single malt Scotch, not that blended rubbish.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

The Duke of Wellington

 

It was an amusing contribution, a witticism, an amuse bouche, a tittilation, a crack, a laugh

 

Sorry I forgot this is TV  

Cheers, and incidentally I see the Scots got £240m extra to spend in the budget.

Keep up the humour please, TV needs it.

[SheungWan]

6 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

There you go again, anyone with an opposing view...

The House Of Lords has a majority of Left Wing Labour and Lib Dems appointed by Clegg, Brown and Blair. If Heseltine wants to join them he could only expect the sack.

All this posturing is just time wasting, it will end up going through the Commons in time to declare Article 50 by the end of March.

And it should signal the demise of the House Of Lords.

That you consider the deliberations of the House of Lords time wasting is perfectly up to you but unfortunately your opinion is of no regard other than an echo of previous wailings from the forum Brexiteers who considered the deliberations of the High Court time wasting and then followed that with observations that the Supreme Court was time wasting and of course the House of Commons would be time wasting. As for the demise of the House of Lords more likely will outlast this threads current political parvenus.

[Laughing Gravy]

15 hours ago, transam said:

63 mil a year, how much does the UK pay out ever day to the EU....We ALL know the UK is paying to take care of other EU countries every day...Ordinary UK folk don't like it..They have voted so....Time to move on and do our own thing again  which we have always done in the past and for a small country has done extremely well....If you or others think the UK will implode, well I doubt that...Our diligence will come to the fore....

• 79default

Explains it rather ell here in todays express just how much we have and are paying into the EU coffers.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/776622/Brexit-news-EU-cash-crisis-UK-exit-fifth-budget-receipts

[hawker9000]

23 hours ago, edandpranee said:

I'm from the States so  I don't know a lot about how it works in England but the House of Lords sounds like our Democrat Party--out of touch with the whole of society and after their own self serving interests.

   

It seems simple enough.  Those who supported Brexit are now onboard with the HOL, those who didn't suddenly have them in their crosshairs.  If the HOL had rolled otherwise, it'd be just the other way around.  So when you hear all the "HOL are doddering old fools and out-of-touch" type stuff, you're just hearing the rationalization of the moment.  Just like the U.S. electoral system was the target-du-jour of the wingnuts after Nov 8.  It wasn't about the electoral system, and it's not about the HOL.  Losers just have to find something to bare their teeth at.

 

I guess predictability is good for the markets 'n all.  But kind o' boring.

 

<yawn>

 

[SheungWan]

12 hours ago, JAG said:

Hmm, that's the second time Heseltine has been sacked by a female Tory prime minister over Europe.

Is it becoming a habit?

I remember him turning up at Greenham Common, mincing about in a borrowed combat jacket. Condescending ponce who needed a haircut...

Some people are hardly worth the bother of a condescending ponce making even the slightest gesture in their direction so should really be grateful for the smallest of acknowledgements. They have never forgiven Heseltine for standing up against the Blessed Margaret and beetroot faced about it to this day, the lot of them.

Edited March 9, 2017 by SheungWan

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

15 hours ago, hawker9000 said:

It seems simple enough.  Those who supported Brexit are now onboard with the HOL, those who didn't suddenly have them in their crosshairs.  If the HOL had rolled otherwise, it'd be just the other way around.  So when you hear all the "HOL are doddering old fools and out-of-touch" type stuff, you're just hearing the rationalization of the moment.  Just like the U.S. electoral system was the target-du-jour of the wingnuts after Nov 8.  It wasn't about the electoral system, and it's not about the HOL.  Losers just have to find something to bare their teeth at.

 

I guess predictability is good for the markets 'n all.  But kind o' boring.

 

<yawn>

 

Essentially what you say is sort of correct but about face. The HoL has a majority of anti-government Lords that were appointed during the last Labour Government and the Coalition. Thus, with the help of a few rebel Tory Lords the amendments are being argued out before they are sent back to the elected chamber to vote either to keep them in or vote them out again in the Commons.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

20 hours ago, SheungWan said:

That you consider the deliberations of the House of Lords time wasting is perfectly up to you but unfortunately your opinion is of no regard other than an echo of previous wailings from the forum Brexiteers who considered the deliberations of the High Court time wasting and then followed that with observations that the Supreme Court was time wasting and of course the House of Commons would be time wasting. As for the demise of the House of Lords more likely will outlast this threads current political parvenus.

I agree it could take some time to reform the HoL but in the meantime the government could do what has been done before and flood it with their own (Tory) support.

I have to say most of the whining comes from the bad losers, not those who believe in leaving the EU without further delay.

[Notadoctor]

if you consider the process democratic, think again (or think for the first time?) - Brits have not spoken on Brexit

[hawker9000]

if you consider the process democratic, think again (or think for the first time?) - Brits have not spoken on Brexit

Blah blah blah. Yeah, I guess when you're the loser, it's always true that the voters were misinformed and misled, and the process "undemocratic", now isn't it? I'm quite sure that if the vote had gone the other way, this Dawkins character would be just overflowing with the wisdom & farsightedness of the voters. 'The same kind of whining going on in the states.

Next.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, hawker9000 said:

Blah blah blah. Yeah, I guess when you're the loser, it's always true that the voters were misinformed and misled, and the process "undemocratic", now isn't it? I'm quite sure that if the vote had gone the other way, this Dawkins character would be just overflowing with the wisdom & farsightedness of the voters. 'The same kind of whining going on in the states.

Next.

Dawkins is a hero on mine; VERY bright bloke.

 

Of course, he's correct on this as well!

 

Doesnt it concern the Brexiteers that all the bright people seem to be in the other camp?

 

Nope. La la la........

[Jip99]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Dawkins is a hero on mine; VERY bright bloke.

 

Of course, he's correct on this as well!

 

Doesnt it concern the Brexiteers that all the bright people seem to be in the other camp?

 

Nope. La la la........

 

 

Obviously not ALL the people in the other are bright!

[Jip99]

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Dawkins is a hero on mine; VERY bright bloke.

 

Of course, he's correct on this as well!

 

 

 

 

 

 

If he, and other Remoaners, were that bl00dy bright they would have applied the same criteria for joining the EEC in 1973!

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Obviously not ALL the people in the other are bright!

Yes, you are quite correct

 

MOST bright people!

 

SOME bright people have worked out how to shaft the rest of the country!

[Grouse]

I note the government now say that he he amendments are unnecessary; we should just take Teresa May's word that parliament will be given a meaningful vote.

 

Just like believing the Con Party manifesto on national insurance contributions? Yes, I trust them ( as far as I could throw them)

 

We desperately need funds for community care. I know, we'll make those people who could not get a job and have started to work for themselves pay! Basta! ?

[hawker9000]

Dawkins is a hero on mine; VERY bright bloke.
 
Of course, he's correct on this as well!
 
Doesnt it concern the Brexiteers that all the bright people seem to be in the other camp?
 
Nope. La la la........

Oh my goodness! You mean there's no law in the UK that allows only thw people YOU think are "bright" to vote?? 'Must change that! Or even better, just eliminate all that pesky majority business, and put l'il ol' YOU in charge. What a concept, eh?

Pffffft

[Grouse]

15 minutes ago, hawker9000 said:

 

Oh my goodness! You mean there's no law in the UK that allows only thw people YOU think are "bright" to vote?? 'Must change that! Or even better, just eliminate all that pesky majority business, and put l'il ol' YOU in charge. What a concept, eh?

Pffffft

 

Did you not understand what I wrote?

 

It seems to me that most bright people are NOT Brexiteers.

 

You bring up the right to vote and it's a fair point. Frankly I'm not at all sure universal suffrage is such a brilliant idea. We don't allow children to vote because they are just not knowledgeable enough. It could be argued that some adults are not knowledgable enough! Though how one would determine that I wouldn't know. If you look at the history of suffrage in the U.K., it makes for interesting reading.

[hawker9000]

15 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Did you not understand what I wrote?

 

It seems to me that most bright people are NOT Brexiteers.

 

You bring up the right to vote and it's a fair point. Frankly I'm not at all sure universal suffrage is such a brilliant idea. We don't allow children to vote because they are just not knowledgeable enough. It could be argued that some adults are not knowledgable enough! Though how one would determine that I wouldn't know. If you look at the history of suffrage in the U.K., it makes for interesting reading.

Well, I guess that's the rub, isn't it?  In the world of politics, it would seem that "bright" people just happen to always be the ones that agree with you.  And the ones that don't, well they can't be so bright ... obviously.   Most of us can discern a tiny flaw in that logic...

 

 

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, hawker9000 said:

Well, I guess that's the rub, isn't it?  In the world of politics, it would seem that "bright" people just happen to always be the ones that agree with you.  And the ones that don't, well they can't be so bright ... obviously.   Most of us can discern a tiny flaw in that logic...

 

 

Yes, I do take your point. And I accept that my view is biased ?

 

But do you not think an independent outsider would draw a similar conclusion? Just look at the people who have spoken out against Brexit and those who are pro! I'm really talking about academics, engineers, scientists and representatives of the arts. Maybe I'm just deluded ??

[hawker9000]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Yes, I do take your point. And I accept that my view is biased ?

 

But do you not think an independent outsider would draw a similar conclusion? Just look at the people who have spoken out against Brexit and those who are pro! I'm really talking about academics, engineers, scientists and representatives of the arts. Maybe I'm just deluded ??

There are smart people on both sides of the question, as is true most of the time.  Most people tend to desensitize themselves to the views and comments they disagree with, and delude themselves into an awareness of only the views that are the same as theirs.  It always pays to be skeptical when some "intellectual elite" seeks to undo the will of the majority, with the "unwashed, ignorant, stupid, misled masses" argument.  Der Fuhrer thought his views keener and his wisdom greater than everyone else as well, and lavished his genius on the world with a rather widely read volume.  There were some people held to be "visionaries" on his side, too.    It took 60 million dead people to prove him/them wrong...    Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Mao Tse-Tung, Vlad the Impaler - birds of a feather.  

 

It would seem there's something to be said for democracy and universal suffrage...

 

It's childish, petulant and above all transparent to impugn the intelligence of someone or a faction just because they're the winner and you're the loser.  If you have an argument to make, make it.  But expect to be ridiculed if the best you can do is, "well we're smart and they're just stupid".  THAT's NOT an argument, it's whining.

 

 

 

 

 

[Grouse]

50 minutes ago, hawker9000 said:

There are smart people on both sides of the question, as is true most of the time.  Most people tend to desensitize themselves to the views and comments they disagree with, and delude themselves into an awareness of only the views that are the same as theirs.  It always pays to be skeptical when some "intellectual elite" seeks to undo the will of the majority, with the "unwashed, ignorant, stupid, misled masses" argument.  Der Fuhrer thought his views keener and his wisdom greater than everyone else as well, and lavished his genius on the world with a rather widely read volume.  There were some people held to be "visionaries" on his side, too.    It took 60 million dead people to prove him/them wrong...    Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Mao Tse-Tung, Vlad the Impaler - birds of a feather.  

 

It would seem there's something to be said for democracy and universal suffrage...

 

It's childish, petulant and above all transparent to impugn the intelligence of someone or a faction just because they're the winner and you're the loser.  If you have an argument to make, make it.  But expect to be ridiculed if the best you can do is, "well we're smart and they're just stupid".  THAT's NOT an argument, it's whining.

 

 

 

 

 

I did try to be polite to you

 

BUT you, like most Brexiteers are resistant to any points raised

 

We have already done to death the point that remainers correlate closely with higher education and U am not going to revisit that.

 

No, the point is that there have been a series of people giving quite erudite explanations as to why they are pro remain

 

From the Brexiteers, all we hear is "the will of the people"

 

I sorry you don't see this anomaly 

 

Finally, Hitler came to power democratically with great support from the masses

 

Edited March 10, 2017 by Grouse

[Morakot]

 

[Grouse]

35 minutes ago, Morakot said:

 

What is the point you are making?

 

You think Dawkins is telling lies?

 

Explain.....

[Morakot]

27 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Explain.....

 

It's quite self-explanatory; just watch the clip.

 

Whether I agree or not with what's being said there is not very relevant. What's much more interesting is that "Lords reform" has been on the table for more than 100 years and it has been consistently blocked, delayed, and watered down by all sorts of parliamentarians --- spearheaded by conservative politicians. The irony is that only a few weeks ago minsters threaten to create a 1000 (one thousand!) new Conservative peers if the government doesn't get its way. Hypocrisy!

Edited March 10, 2017 by Morakot

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, Morakot said:

 

It's quite self-explanatory; just watch the clip.

 

Whether I agree or not with what's being said there is not very relevant. What's much more interesting is that "Lords reform" has been on the table for more than 100 years and it has been consistently blocked, delayed, and watered down by all sorts of parliamentarians --- spearheaded by conservative politicians. The irony is that only a few weeks again minsters threaten to create a 1000 (one thousand!) new Conservative peers if the government doesn't get its way. Hypocrisy!

I have watched it

 

You noticed a deliberate lie?

[pitrevie]

1 minute ago, Morakot said:

 

It's quite self-explanatory; just watch the clip.

 

Whether I agree or not with what's being said there is not very relevant. What's much more interesting is that "Lords reform" has been on the table for more than 100 years and it has been consistently blocked, hindered, and water down by all sorts of parliamentarians --- spearheaded by conservative politicians. The irony is that only a few weeks again minsters threaten to create a 1000 (one thousand!) new Conservative peers if the government doesn't get its way. Hypocrisy!

Agreed and it's strange that one of the most derided PMs in recent times is the only one who reformed the Lords to any degree, getting rid of the automatic conservative majority and the automatic right of many others to sit in the Lords such as Christopher  Monckton. Still a long way to go but it was a start.

[Morakot]

15 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I have watched it

 

You noticed a deliberate lie?

 

No. What's the lie?

Edited March 10, 2017 by Morakot