barnsworth

In the General Topics on Thai Visa. Somebody posted a great piece from Al Jazeera TV on Thailand.

Made me think of a couple of simple points about the PAD.

They actively campaigned against democracy.

They called all the poor people un-educated, not clever enough to vote.

They Called for and celebrated a coup against a popular (the most popular ever vote wise) PM.

They were involved in a sacking of Government house and occupation of an airport.

They overthrew two further PM's and did not disist until their Democrat party was back in power.

Despite legal charges, two of them hold Government posts, one now in the CRES.

They called for their people to take action on the streets and pulled back when they realised they had not many people left to call on.

They now call for Martial Law.

Every move during the entire short history of this movement has been with preserving the powers of the Elite through the facade of the Democtat party.

This is how the world outside their own owned media see it. Check any creditable news media outlet and this is how they see it... really.

It appears to me that they do not have much of a Public Relations department!!

This went out two days ago and was one of the best pieces I have seen.

Well done Al Jazeera. They also did a media east special about this.

They really showed this Government for what it is and showed their supporters up as the I'll informed elite they are.

Is that CRES on the phone to them now?

More stability.

Farmers now gathering outside Army barracks (un-related to red protest ) demanding he see them personally or they will not disperse!!!

What was the monty python song. "when danger reared it's ugly head, he bravely turned away and fled, brave brave khun abhisit)" They'll be saying Nii, next

What on earth do they think the country think of them and the CRES hiding in a bunker fortified only to keep the Thai people at bay!!

Army spread even thinner.

Pattani notice this and increase in attacks.

Go Abhisit or the Cambodians will take all their disputed territory away next. Army would have killed all the reds by now if they were going to.

Give it up and lets have and election with the UN involved.

Well because the reds on here flash the airport thing whenever they run out of excuses for the current situation. surely you can recognize?

The besiege of Suvarnabhumi Airport IS relevant here because it shows the double standards in place with regards to each side protesting about opposition governments, coups, elections, corruption etc. The Yellows are once again distracting from the main issues, of course. :-(

How does the airport closure show double standards in regards to the coup, elections and or corruption? Absolute <deleted>! You want to discuss double standards? Lets start with your main man Thaksin who has commited crimes against humanity and got away with it!

That two protagonists are in the current cabinet not enough for you? Sorry you didn't know that did you. Two more FACTs for you.

The D in PAD stands for Democracy whilst the party call for appointed governments and again this week for yet another coup. FACT accepted by any serious media outlet on the planet outside a few owned by Sondhi and the Army.

The R in CRES stands for Resolution. All they have done (in anybodies eyes, Reds, PAD, Yellows, PM, Media, Army) is escalate the problem FACT Or do you want to state that the situation now is better than when the CRES was set up??

If the situation is now worse than 6 weeks ago, the CRES are not resolving it FACT and you can spin your anti Thaksin propagana all you want. These are facts!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_Newin_Group

How many cabinet posts does this minority faction have?

Looks like two of the main driving forces are friends and allies of Thaksin who were not smart enough to keep up with him!!! Sondhi and Newin.

These two great statesmen now hold the country ransom all in the name of Thaksin.

It seems common knowledge Thaksin is dying of cancer so why is the red movement not backing off?

Smell of democracy and freedom is in the air. That will be Thaksin's legacy, that he lit the fires of democracy in Thailand.

All yellows stand against elections and only want the Army to do their work for them again. The work of subduing the population that they can no longer manage on their own.

Whats wrong with elections taking place before the Democrats can play with the rules and election boundaries? Abhisit only wants the extra months to set about arranging the outcome.

The judiciary have also been told to be fair and ensure justice. This greatens the chace of them banning the Democrats under the same shabby rules they got Samaak out on. Shabby , but sorely needed if this country is to progress.

So the PAD and CRES want martial law as does abhisit. Army didn't look sure at all.

CRES threaten police with transfer if they don't move roadblocks. Looks like the situation is really easing in the country since Abhisits speach at the weekend.

A real lessening of tension and almost a return to normality.

Bunker mentality and I have read of other leaders that ended their reign holed up in bunkers. Propagande ministers and all!!!

Any PAD on here ever google or wiki the members of the CRES or read what other papers say about them..... Thought not

If you think the yellow are fascist. See the blue clad soldiers of Newin hitting the streets.

Yep, military very split and CRES having to rely on their old friend to get some action!!!! Well done, this will help the country.

I repeat my question to all the Red supporters here; "What will the country look like after you have been able to canvas enough votes again to win elections?" Chavalit for PM, Chalerm swaps seats with Suthep????

Well, you are going to get Newin!! That is a done deal. Many in the Yellow camp are letting this go as they don't believe it. Thats because they are kept in the dark and the propaganda they are fed does not state this.

Meanwhile the CRES spew vile rhetoric on a scale not seen for decades and try to dray the old anti monarchy card into the debate. This is like the race card in the states and it is a disgusting tactic seen by all outside the narrow world of the PAD for what it is.

ASTV still spewing? TAN still at it? Nation still at it? When you can say either that these three are off air, or the red stations are back on..... Don't talk about fairness.... period

the only result of such a partisan opinion is to divide more deeply and to drive more certainly to Civil War.

The situation is now far more difficult to handle.

1- A conscrit army is not a block without cracks. I have told from day one that the law enforcement was a Police operation more specifically Anti-Riot Forces.

2- The fact of double standards (PAD Airports) has destroyed a fair utilisation of Police and Army

3- Abhisit is acting as a Partisan Leader not as a Stateman: he failed to adress directly to root people and fix their issues, defusing the situation at the roots: it is a well known tactic to defuse a social unrest by adressing directly the issues, overpassing the leaders.

4- Now we are on the verge of the insurrection. If there is a bloody crackdown, the risk is the Civil war, just waiting than some Army sections join the insurrection. IMHO, Anupong has well understood the danger and this is why he cannot act as Abhisit want.

Thats a great post and the Army is indeed split.

In the past, the Elites have bought elections and where they could not buy them, they have (through the salaries of the forces with missused Tax Revenue) PAID for coups and PAID the soldiers to do their bidding. They have somehow brought Newin in on their side this time to prop up Abhisit. This can only mean they have promised him PM if he maintains status Quo. When PAD have a problem with Newin in the future, they are going to pray that the "good old days" of Thaksin could come back. A PAD rally under a Newin Gov. will not happen. Crocodile farms will have a good day though.

Is it any better to be paying army conscripts to keep you in power all these years than Thaksin buying a bit of land and dodging a bit of tax? Obviously to the PAD its ok.

PAD's rank and file interestes are closer to those of the Redshirts. They just don't know it yet as they think they are part of the upper classes. They are at best, part of the lower rungs of middle classes and still very poorly paid in a world wide sense. This despite their party being in power forever.

post='3541475' date='2010-04-26 17:26:13']

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Perhaps a bit of Constitutional Law would also help.

Oh and even if I don't agree with you, I would always uphold your right to speak.

You are getting warmer. Then see who wrote the constitution and banned criticism of it and campaigning against it and a TV black out of any dissent. And banned the main opposition to the Democrats.... AND still didn't get enough votes to form a government.

Next google some of the top people at CRES. Find out who they are first

We'll make a political commentater out of you yet.

Well, nothing is perfect and certainly not in politics, especially in Thai politics. But going back to Adam and Eve doesn't help here.

Of course the present constitution was drafted by a group of people nominated by the military (and they made sure they can't get held responsible for anything they did), but a majority of people voted in favor of it. Shouldn't we respect that?

As Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst political form, except for all the others" or something to this effect.

BTW, did you know Veera used to be a Democrat, and Sondhi a friend of Thaskin, and Thaksin paid for the education of Anupong's children?

Nothing good can come from hatred, blackmail, violence and refusal to negotiate and compromise, at least nothing democratic.

You mentioned the constitution law first. It is absolutely the crux of the matter. You have all the information at your disposal but you don't seem aware of how it fits together.

I agree with your last sentence 100% though. But this has come from both sides and if the candidates of the poor are continually remove, it is a recipe for trouble.

Vote, accept it and try to win next time round. But what happend here was vote, Thaksin in, riot, army in, constitution in, rigged elections, Samaak in, Elite organisted outser, Somchai in, ouster organised and even, courtesy of Newin, an army of blue clad thugs roaming the streets of pattaya until they were routed.

That was four groups overturning three valid PM appointments. Newins Blue mob, The PAD, Courts and Army. AND still they keep coming back, these pesky reds causing trouble just because you overthrew three PMs and organised Coup.This time, the Army realise that they perhaps should be evenhanded and this is why they are getting the flak.

What is PAD response now? They know they cannot physically move the reds or they would have tried already. So they bleat and whine for another Coup. Democracy in action? At least the reds are calling for an election here.

Let the majority decide? The majority has decided, long time ago and the majority wanted Abhisit to be the PM

dominique355 I suggest you either read up a bit on Thai election history before you post or s.t.f.u.

Perhaps a bit of Constitutional Law would also help.

Oh and even if I don't agree with you, I would always uphold your right to speak.

You are getting warmer. Then see who wrote the constitution and banned criticism of it and campaigning against it and a TV black out of any dissent. And banned the main opposition to the Democrats.... AND still didn't get enough votes to form a government.

Next google some of the top people at CRES. Find out who they are first

We'll make a political commentater out of you yet.

I have a hard time seeing the yellows being able to pose any kind of threat to the Reds, it seems the Reds would have them way outnumbered and it wouldn't even be remotely close.

Don't forget...Yellow = Military

Correction. Yellow was Military now = few aging top brass.

Military are in charge now. Democrats certainly are not. Only a change of name of the present state from SOE to Martial Law. Nobody is going to pay a blind bit of notice, apart from the outside media who will wonder why a party with Democracy in its name is always wanting the Army to come in. I don't wonder, I know. They are all one and the same. Elite, Top Army, Courts, PAD Democrats.

BTW, which military do they want in power? If Thaksins Brother in Law and Seh Deang take over, do they want these in charge? Might be half the military ready to enforce SOE when this lot turn up on the streets. Am sure some top brass will be proposing it if only to embarrass Abhisit and show him again for the fraud he is. At least if he resigned now the PAD would have to go away and prepared to get the NPP into a few seats . A heated Election campaign would beat a civil war.

This time, who is going to stop the PAD being attacked? The Army are far to busy where they are now, and it won't have gone unnoticed I am sure.

Most yellows wont show. The ones that did, will have been in the multi-coloured lot. A lot of them dissapointed with Democrats anyway and if they think Thaksin is dying, why would they continue?

Perhaps it wasn't so much about Thaksin as being against Democracy. Most Ironic name ever for a political force and it didn't go unnoticed last time. The media were queing up with mics last time to here the flock slander northeners as stupid and calling for appointed Governments. The outside media had a riot. Democracy indeed.

Is ASTV still broadcastiing this divisive tirade? Now how can that be!

PAD threatening violence now if they can get their mobs through the Bangkok Blockade that is now turning away police and army units.

PAD should be careful as they sheltered under the protection of the Army last time. Army not too keen this time and there are an awful lot of reds there for middle class gentry to be fighting hand to hand with!

PAD should dissapear and elections held. The only thing to consider for both sides is that the elections are fair this time and monitored by UN or somesuch agency.

If you want some facts to add to this.

Another paper has a series of photos showing the convoys of Police and Army being turned back.

Roadblocks up now outside Bangkok and one in Rangsit. This is 10km at least from Rachprashong and shows strong feeling in Bangkok against the Army and Police.

500 police in one convoy turned back.

These road blocks will also stop PAD buses travelling into Bangkok - if there are any!

There is nt stomach on the part of the people, the Army or the Police to kill people. Elections are the only answer. PAD want action, but as they are Middle Class elite, they will have no stomach for violence themselves. Only through other branches of elite.

They were attacked in Bangkok last year by Bangkok residents and had to shoot at them!! Very peaceful and shows the lack of major support even there!

'After that, what happened with the first (government)? It was not stable,' she said of the short-lived administration that followed the coup. 'This was a result of the constitution being written by the military.'

The first government that came to power after the coup was headed by the PPP and was simply a puppet government still controlled by Thaksin and headed by Samak Sundaravej

That government was unseated due to a conflict of interest when the PM continued to host a cooking show on TV, which violated the constitution. The next PM was Somchai Wongsawat

who we all know as Thaksin's brother in law. Leading to the popular belief that this government was also just a puppet of Thaksin. The conditions leading up to the coup saw massive public outrage at the corruption in the Thaksin government, which is why the coup received massive public support at the time. It was completely non violent and many citizens welcomed the soldiers. The PPP party was later disbanded due to electoral fraud and became the PTP. Prime Ministers who commit electoral fraud and conflicts of interest do not lead to stable governments. If they had been obeying the laws that were in place either of these prime ministers might still be in power. The lack of stability of the short-lived administration that followed the coup that Aung Sun Suu Kyi actual refers to in the article was due to the corrupt nature of those governments and not due to the constitution.

The constitution sets up the rules by which a country is government. It is public knowledge and when you violate it repeatedly your government will not last long. It is not whether it was written by the military or not. That is not the reason these government failed. It is that they violated the rules and it is their own fault they did not last. The democrats are also in peril of being disbanded due to possible violations of the electoral laws. If the evidence proves that they received illegal contributions then they also will not last.

Unless Thailand adopts a constitution where electoral fraud is deemed acceptable these same situations will keep repeating themselves until politicians stop committing criminal acts in order to get elected. Blaming the constitution is simplistic and misleading. One must examine the actual reasons why the two previous Prime Ministers lost their position. What they did should be a violation of any constitution whether written by the people, the military, or Aung Sun Suu Kyi herself. I'm sure that a political prisoner in a regime that has a dim view of a free press, in a nation that is historically hostile to Thailand may not be aware of all facts. She is also boycotting elections held this year because she doesn't see them as fair elections, something the Democrats once did under the Thaksin regime.

This post misses the point she made completely. "we do not need to see far" means just that. Your post is just opposition beefs with an elected government.

No doubt at all that the PPP would have had a bigger majority in that election if the elections had been free and fair.

It would also not have fallen without lots of interference from behind the scenes, and these forces putting the PAD on the street and protecting them.

No convictions or court dates for invading an international airport!! ASTV still on the air? PAD on the streets at the Army Barracks with the CRES, the very same CRES who are banning gatherings of more than 5 people..... Right on their doorstep encouraged by them!!

Try and see it as an outsider or neutral. This stinks of an Elite clinging to their power by increasing desperate and more transparently corrupt and one sided measures.

What people see is this. Elected Thaksin overthrown by Elite, Elite write own constitution, elite ban two opposition parties, ban criticism of their constitution, lose election despite all this interfering, then remove 2 more elected PM's.

That really is how the world view this. Forget which branch, Army, PAD, Dems, it is all Elite controlled.

Anything else you mention is not relevant. Elected is the key word here and the Dems are not. Having the the future PM Newin shore them up for a term is not the same as a mandate at the ballot box.

So now we have PAD on one side, reds on the other side and government and military getting caught in the middle with a multicoloured support group. Interesting the way this is playing politically or being played.

Not quite. The PAD, Government, Army and Courts are just different manifestations of the Elites who are at last loosing their grip on power. Never a pretty sight, but they are losing it.

When ASTV and Nation go off air you will know it's over.

PAD had a lot of military backing last time. This is waning now and other matters will give their support base less cohesion.

i cant see them bringing anything good to the table

just reminds everyone where the reds get their tactics from,,,,

taking over areas,,causing anarchy,deminding things and the latest yellow tactic the reds have copied dropping their traditional colour and going multi coloured

At least ASTV will be going off the air today as part of the SOE! It will, won't it

Gives the world another chance to see double standards in action.

Red TV, Radio and Websites shut down ALL

PAD poison channels shut down NIL

Way to go Neutral Mark, way to go.

I think some people here don't understand that this isn't just about Rajprasong anymore. The PM has completely lost control over the country. Here is what happened elsewhere in Thailand:

- Hundreds of protesters yesterday blocked Phaholyothin road in Pathum Thani to prevent police from the North and Northeastern provinces reinforcing in the capital for a possible crackdown on protesters. Some 50 police vehicles with 500 police officers were stopped. The blockade also caused traffic congestion in Prathum Thani's Rangsit area which is the main route from northern regions to Bangkok.

- In northeastern Udon Thani province, a group of protesters led by Wichian Khaokham, Pheu Thai's MP blocked the Friendship road in Nonsa-ard district to bar military and police from travelling to Bangkok. Some 10 vans and 6 trucks loaded with 178 police officers who would rotate with colleagues in the capital were stopped yesterday in the district.

- In northeastern Chaiyaphum province, protesters stopped some 100 police officers travelling from Nong Khai and Leoi to Bangkok.

- In northeastern Ubon Ratchathani, some 3,000 protesters took into custody seven people from Ratchathani Asok community accusing them of being security guards for the pro-government group People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD).

- In northern Chiang Mai province, red protesters confronted a pro-government multi-colour group gathered to support the government. Police asked the multi-colour group to end their activities because of the red group's aggressiveness.

- In Nakhon Ratchasima, pro-government group briefly confronted red protesters but police separated them before a clash.

Source: The Nation

Above is definitely interesting reading and tells miles about the peaceful nature of the red protesters and their respect for the laws and harmony in this country...

It might also be showing us that the change in the country has started and the forces of the Elite would do better to find a way to fit in with it and have some influence or say.

These troops cannot get to Bangkok now, do you think they could ever get out of it peacefully and go back to policing in the provinces if they get the blood of the UDD on their hands?

what he is pointing out is that even if the army had enough forces to deal with Rachprashong (which it hasn't by all accounts or why bus in thousands of extra ones?) then how will they deal with the country if it rebelled.

Army are getting stretched and this could endanger the country even more if they start a civil war. They are restless in the south, What if troops are pulled from the borders with burma? More drugs and people traffiking. From Cambodia border? More loss of land and face.

Despite sitting in the same room as Abhisit yesterday, Anupong move away from him everytime he spoke. And Anupong also resisted using force at rachprasong.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world...?iref=allsearch

Most nocitable thing about his is the poverty and committment.

Nothing like the beautiful appartments and houses and malls that the Bangkok Elite are used to.

Very interesting insight for those who rarely travel north.

My wifes village looks like this. Fantastic people, hard working, down trodden.

Another important thing to remember is this "PROPAGANDA WAR" is that :

The UDD have requested and demanded "Independent Investigations" into April the 10th and April the 22nd.

The government have refused the April 10th demand, and will likely also refuse an Independent investigation into the April 22nd Silom happening.

Now ask yourself, why are so called and labelled "Terrorists" requesting Independent Investigations, and why are the Government refusing them ?

Intelligent people should ponder and think about that.

Intelligent people know that an independent investigation is underway AND that Reds stole bodies from hospital morgues to destroy evidence.

Your mates?

http://tweetphoto.com/19879049

I hope there will be enough fire trucks about tonight

Across from CP tower this morning about 9.00 am on PP2 there were two huge black and brand new water cannon trucks.

Wonder what they will look like on Television when they are on their sides!

Well guarded!! Wonder which side they have pumped their money into!

Coalminer ---- this isn't about the PAD. This isn't about 2008 or 2006.

Sorry, my understanding was that a;though the situation is explosive as it is now, the PAD was rallying against the RED's in 2010 without restriction.

My err...........

This is about the violent red movement and their actions. This is about the reds firing m-79 grenades into innocent victims in Silom. I find it sad that you focus on something proven not to be true to shift the focus off of the actions of the reds.

I haven't seen an official release on the news ot the newspapers about who or where the the grenades were shooted.

Off course, here at Thaivisa are a lot of "keyboard" expers who have determined on the f\irst impact that the projecties were coming from the RED's.

Again, my err...............

The witnessess (named) on other sites are saying the grenades came from robinsons! How did the hundreds of cameras that the Forces have trained on the site, not pick up 5 bangs and flashes.

Have to assume that they have also infiltrated the camp so their forces there not sure?

The man, Narong Panpetch, was driver of a BTS Skytrain traveling between Sala Daeng and Ratchadamri stations and is said to have told investigators that he saw “flashes come from upper floor windows” of the landmark department store building. A women, whose identity has not been released, is also reported to have told investigators she saw the same thing, just seconds before the grenades struck.

OOOOOOh

My betting was that with all the thousands of police and army survailing the rally site (we saw the cameras on BBC report) They must have seen 5 flashes. They have an entire team in there just filming and photographing the Red Rally. What next, from the Government, All 500 cameras in the area (not just the ones the reds pointed at the sky) we not working due to them been procured during the rain of Thaksin the Terrible.

In which case, they would have been all over TV as proof of who fired them.

Robinsons eh, Is that in Lumpin Park?

comment 132

catch22 date : 25/04/2010 time : 13.16

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/catch22

Game Over -- Thaksin Shinnawatra is Dead

Posted by Piset , Reader : 516 , 07:46:15

Sunday 25 April

At the moment, I am still waiting for further confirmation.

The latest information I have received indicated yet, the Shinnawatra family is contacting with Thai government for permission to return the body of Thaksin Shinnawatra to Thailand for Funeral.

The latest news from Bangkok indicated that at least 3 of the Red shirt leaders are not at Rajaprasong now, they may have got into the U.S. Embassy compound seeking political asylum.

If so, the game is over.

abhisit's been beheaded and his head is hanging from a lamp-post outside central world......

anupong paochinda is pilloried outside the dusit thani hotel awaiting beheading.....

check www. the nation.com and bangkokpost.com.

Perchace a rumour or is it fact

Why not find (if there is one) an english language newspaper website from Bangkok. I heard a rumour that there is a very interesting article on the front page about the men in black.

I'll check.

TAN Network: PBS: Health Minister confirms 75 injured in Silom bomb attacks; 10 in critical condition; 1 death

-- Tan Network 2010-04-22

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

let's see what the minister will confirm in the very very near future when patience on all sides gets exhausted.

chances are a slaughter of many innocent people of all colors including people in uniforms will ensue.

the kingdom will burn all because of face-savings, pride and worst of all presumptions of the worst kinds from the elites and the so-called educated in thai society.

there are enough crooks and miscreants who definitely want to see this happen so that they can plot and plunder the kingdom for their own nefarious ends.

MAY THE LORD BUDDHA BLESS THAILAND!

Believe me, the change has happened already.

I think there will be no slaughter in Bangkok, but the reds may retreat to fight another day. It's only one battle in a long war that will ultimately have one outcome.

They cannot suppress it this time. Look at Palistine, Lebanon, Afghanista, Iraq, Lebanon, Chechnya, Iran. People fight on and harder and dirtier the more you kill. Pattani still going at it and they will be wondering if the Army is overstretching itself in the North with all those roadblocks!!

The elite are making it worse for themselves if they permit slaughter. Already, the names of the yellow backers have appeared and some major snouts on their side. I am not sure if I can publish them here, so I won't. Try a google or a look round some other media. Looking at them, and the size of the army, I don't think the army would have enough soldiers to offer one man for each outlet.

Also google Mussollini, lampost if you think great dictatorial represive regimes can hang on for ever. Espescially with whats round the corner here. Shah of Iran fell, Saddam fell, USSR states fell and succeeded. Were their armies a match for the Thai Army? United States of Isaan anybody?

A red roadblock? what authortity do they have to man a roadblock? I voted "wait and see" and seems as time ticks away the reds are losing credibility and will eventually lose any support they once had ,PM isnt as silly and gutless as some make out,and his "wisdom" will eventualy prevail and the country will return to some form of normlicity,he will sort the pressing industrial probs near Rayong,organise a budget,coughs..Reshuffle army..grins and then and only then will he announce elections and the way the reds have exposed themselves, will win with a majority that cant be contesteted with " mob rule" and if allowed to govern will bring Thailand closer to being a developed country..this man is Thailands last chance

It's only the Army road blocks keeping this from being enormous today.

Now they know what to expect they are to counter. Just reading the news feed on a non yellow paper.

Based on the model that stopped the train of reinforcements and the police convoy today.

Bangkok is a long way to go for a convoy as noticable as this. They will be easy to stop if there is an escalation.

Anymore "Facts" from the Nation?

More later.