thaiboy999

The merchant name is clearly "Chiang Mai University Language Institute". There's no other names on the receipt. No IUS. No Matthew, Dr. or Mr. or Mrs. or whatever.

For those of you who are wondering what happened to the link to the Chiang Mai Mail report (Post #94), well the editor has taken the whole report down because... well, I can't really say because I've promised confidentiality. But let me think out loud... clearly there are two major sides in this current scandal, if, and I'm just saying IF, one of them was exerting pressure on the editor to remove the report, I wonder which side may that be... There. If you did follow the link and read up prior to its removal, or better yet have printed out a copy like I did, it's easy to see...

But the editor did state that the paper WILL (emphasis hers) go to press with the report at a later time.

We read about Joseph Goebbels and the suppression of freedom of press in history books. In some places of the world, his lineage is alive and well, apparently.

...

What was the merchant name on your credit card receipt? Ours said Chiang Mai Language Institute, not Mr. X.

This may not be news for some of the readers, but this is my latest experience of trying to obtain some refund through my bank/credit card issuer. It might be useful to those who are planning to march up to Rien’s office and demand a refund from LICMU in the near future.

I paid part of the tuition with a VISA card from a Thai bank. When I requested assistance in filing a claim at the bank with all the relevant documentations, the bank teller called up LICMU while I waited. I did not intend to talk to anyone from LICMU, but after a while the teller passed me the phone and let the CMU person talk to me directly. The voice was that of a male, though he would not tell me his name, even after I’ve asked twice.

The bottom line is, don’t even fantasize ever getting a refund from CMU - that we all know. “Go ask Matt for the money - it is ‘not’ the responsibility of the LI…” was basically what he said over and over and over again like a broken record throughout our conversation. When I pointed out that I was a student of LICMU, not of Matt, and that Matt seems to be no longer employed by LICMU, it doesn’t make sense for him to ask me to track down an ex-employee of CMU to try to get a refund. What, am I a private detective?

Then he goes, well, when I signed up and paid for the Thai language course back then, Matt was still employed (in LICMU), so even though today he is not, I need to “go ask Matt for the money - it is…” blah blah blah. I admit I’m not an expert in Thai culture and way of "reasoning", but how could this parrot’s argument even make sense, I don’t know. Coward and hypocritical people would do and say anything, no matter how ridiculous, to avoid taking responsibility - that I know.

And of course on the phone he fed the bank teller with the usual crapload of lies, so even the teller, who had practically no hope of understanding the complexity of the events or hearing other versions of the story in less than an hour, told me I should “go ask Matt…” Perhaps not surprisingly, my bank fell for what LICMU said on the phone - hook, line and sinker - and squarely placed the refund responsibility on Matt too. When I asked the teller to call up VISA and/or her head office to file a claim for me, she refused because “clearly” Matt has taken the money and run.

So this is one instance in which calling up your bank/credit card company for a refund does not work. Then again, it’s a Thai bank we’re talking about here, I should have seen it coming. At least I’ve given it a try. I would like to see Matt make good on his refund promises, though I’m not holding my breath. The silver lining is that this experience at LICMU has motivated me to plan to leave Thailand for good sooner than expected. This place disgusts me.

FYI, Chiang Mai Mail, Vol. IX No. 36:

http://www.chiangmai-mail.com/current/letters.shtml

Let’s say you eat at a Thai restaurant. You have ordered and paid for the food in full, which after two hours of waiting, is still not delivered. You ask for a refund, the director of the restaurant refuses, giving all kinds of contradictory and frankly irrelevant excuses, one of them being “the cashier who gets 40% of the cut has overspent and is now under criminal investigation for other things…” As a customer of this restaurant, not of the cashier, do you care about these excuses from the director? A even more important question is, after such bitter experience at this restaurant, why would anyone even consider for one nanosecond to eat at this restaurant ever again?

Idiom:

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me

Something to reflact on in thinking about the recent events at LICMU.

CMULI's (Rien's) position seems to be that as far as refund of your hard-earned cash is concerned, go ask IUS (Matt), don't harbor any fantasy that CMU will refund you anything. As for the new Thai classes that CMULI says it will provide, we may not want to just assume that the same teachers we've had before would continue to teach us "under new management" - this is based on a conversation I have had with one of our teachers today. It does not seem likely that CMULI will provide education (ED) visa support letters when the student's current NI visa is due to expire. CMULI expects you to leave (the building at least) when your current ED visa expires. Not sure if you could just get a tourist visa and come back and remain in the CMU class with other students whose visas have not (yet) expired.

The tone of the public notice sounds extremely authoritarian and dictatorial. Especially offensive is the "These requirements may be amended from time to time as the Director (Dictator?) deems necessary..." paragraph. Essentially it's giving the Director absolute power in deciding who to admit and expel on grounds that may or may not be considered legitimate. If I didn't know, just by reading this notice I would have thought CMULI is the only school on this planet and there's a long line of prospective students dying to come in to get an education.

Personally I'm not on anybody's side. I have a feeling that neither Matt nor Rien is telling the whole truth (ie: hiding something) - though Matt tends to speak more eloquently than Rien. It doesn't matter. My respect in Matt may return once I have actually received the refund that he has promised. In Thailand, I've learned not to believe it until I actually see it - the cold hard cash - in my hands. Seeing how CMULI has handled her farang students in the past few weeks, I have serious reservations about continuing my studies there. Except for the sake of staying in CM to wait for the refund from Matt, I'm still trying to come up with one good reason to continue studies in this abhorrent institute run by individuals with serious attitude problems and highly questionable management skills.

At CMULI (before their current debacle, of course) we were able to get an ED visa for 30,000 THB (one year) tuition with 4 hours of classroom instructions per week. That aspect seems perfectly legal as far as Thai immigration is concerned. Why is Payap insisting on at least 15 hours per week of instructions and a tuition of (my rough estimate) at least 70,000 THB per year before providing ED visas for foreigners learning Thai? Based on the info on their website, even Walen is able to provide ED visas on class time and tuition similar to what CMULI used to offer. Why can't Payap?

For what it's worth, may I also suggest we write to the "Permanent Secretary for Education", Mrs. Charuaypon Torranin (attached bio and contact info from Ministry of Education website) and the Minister of Education himself, Dr. Wichit Srisa-an, to voice our frustration and grievances. It's fairly clear that reasoning with CMU President Pongsak Angkasith or his LI puppy Rien would not get us anywhere.

just sent the US Consul General in Chiang Mai nice little letter expressing my contempt and disgust with the actions of CMU. Don't know if it will help, but officailly asserted my rights as a human being. Wont hold my breath.

charuayponeng.pdf

In case you have over stayed because of the drama at CMU and have not read this:

For the record, both the LI director Rien (see Post #1), and one of Matthew's IUS men, John (a farang), who's now gone: fired, quit, or whatever, had on separate occasions advised me to over stay my then expiring visa while waiting for their drama to unfold. In fact John suggested that the longer I over stay the "better off" I will be because the fine is capped at 20,000B anyway.

Moral of the story: you can trust no one in Thailand, especially those who are in positions that may suggest that they should know better.

The Thai director, Rien, of CMU LI is able to act so brashly probably because he has the implicit support of his boss, the president of CMU, a Mr. Pongsak Angkasith, according to the CMU website: http://www.cmu.ac.th/about_eng.php?menu=50

For whatever reason, so far he seems to be able to stay comfortably hidden in the background while we the students go through all these anxiety, turmoil and uncertainty from day to day. Could those of us who are more eloquent in speech or experienced in conflict resolution perhaps contact the CMU president directly and demand some answers? Working through Rien, who is also a pawn himself, is not going to get us anywhere.

Thank you for whatever effort you may be able to put in to help all of us who are left to hang out and dry. It's OK if most Thais really do not like us farangs deep inside (and maybe they have good reasons to do so), but we are only asking to be treated fairly here - nothing more, nothing less.

Email from Matthew, September 16, 2010:

Dear 1 Year Thai Language Program student,

As you are probably aware there have been some changes to the 1 Year Thai Language Program at the Language Institute, CMU. We apologize for not informing you of the situation sooner; however, we ourselves were not fully informed of the situation and wanted to wait until we could offer you firm information about any changes.

The 1 Year Thai Language Program was first offered by the Language Institute, Chiang Mai University, Thailand beginning in February 2009. The curriculum for 1 Year Thai Language & Culture was originally developed by IUS/International University Services and the Language Institute, Chiang Mai University with input from our Thai language teachers.

In the last 18 months at the Language Institute, CMU, the 1 Year Thai Language Program has proven itself to be an excellent course, and thus very popular with foreign students wishing to learn Thai while being taught by excellent, ‘farang-friendly’ Thai teachers in a fun and engaging setting. However, the success of the 1 Year Thai Language Program has meant that the program has - according to LICMU executive management - outgrown the educational mission of LICMU; which is: to offer conversational and academic English classes to CMU’s Thai students.

Recently (and without much forewarning nor consultation with this office), it was decided by the executive management of the Language Institute, CMU to close the 1 Year Thai Language Program at the Language Institute, CMU from the end of September 2010.

Therefore, LICMU executive management has decided that LICMU will not offer ANY courses for foreigners at the Language Institute, CMU, from 1 October 2010.

Fortunately, Far Eastern University (Chiang Mai) has very kindly offered to conduct all of LICMU’s 1 Year Thai Language Programs on their campus. They have also very kindly offered to sponsor any 1 Year Thai Language Program student’s education visa or continuation of visa.

Therefore, all currently running 1 Year Thai Language Programs will continue till the end of the scheduled course hours. None of these programs are to be cancelled. However, this has necessitated a change of campus to Far Eastern University.

Far Eastern University (Chiang Mai) will now offer the same 1 Year Thai Language Program, which, in the past, was offered at LICMU. All the same Thai teachers who proved so popular with our foreign students will teach at FEU.

Neither the curriculum, class times, nor the teachers will change.

From the 1 October 2010, all current 1 Year Thai Program classes will be taught at the campus of Far Eastern University. You will receive a further email with detailed directions to FEU (across from Airport Plaza) and directions to your classroom on the FEU campus.

Happily though, this means that all currently enrolled students in the 1 Year Thai Language Program will be FULLY enrolled students at FEU and will receive all the privileges extended to FEU students; including, student card, student discounts, use of libraries, enrollment in any of FEU’s programs for foreigners, access to computer labs, cafeterias, sports facilities, etc..

All current enrollments, deposits, payments and visas currently held by any foreign student at LICMU will be fully honored by Far Eastern University.

Far Eastern University (Chiang Mai) is an excellent university which is centrally located in Chiang Mai (across from Airport Plaza and less than a kilometer from the “old city”). It is very well-appointed with state-of-the-art computer labs, excellent libraries (including large English language collections), and new and comfortable classrooms.

I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you. We have done our very best in the last couple of weeks to make sure that the commitment made to our students by LICMU was honored by us.

We thank you for your patience in this matter and very much look forward to you joining us at our excellent new teaching facilities at Far Eastern University.

If you have any further questions or queries, please do not hesitate to contact me directly on either the email or phone number below..

Yours Sincerely,

Dr. Matthew John Kay

Director

IUS/International University Services (Thailand)

Another website has been able to get a response. Due to forum rules I cannot supply a link but if you put the quote below into Google you should find it.

quote

An explaination. Friend had managed (after much effort) to contact someone 'at the top' of CMULI and was told that 'Thai Immigration had a suspicion that CMU was "selling" ED-visas to farangs not attending the courses and stopped all visas to students from CMU, not only language students. Many existing students have now illegal residence permit status as their visa could not be extended. It was a mess. Besides that there was a relevant change in administration staff at CMULI and the new employees are just not yet familiar with the daily business. Up to now they have a backlog of some 200-300 students waiting for their visa paperwork so the staff is completely overstrained. This might be why I got not answers to my emails.

Now there was a inspection at CMULI by Thai Immigration and they agreed that all documentation is correct and Visa will be issued again starting next Wednesday, 8. September.'

Friend was 'guaranteed that the course in November will be running and I will get the visa papers by end of next week (he would put my name somewhere on the top of the backlog). And of course I get a full refund if my Visa is refused.'

All of this may not be the most comforting news, but it is good to know what exactly is going on...just incase I have to change tack. CMULI is still advertising their four Thai Language courses as including a one year visa.

Thanks for the post. Your Friend's version of the story is probably close to the truth. My source also "at the top" of CMU LI told me a slightly different version of the story. The reason (which was never made public) Thai Immigration was suddenly all over CMU LI was some farang students have committed (or have been accused of committing) some hideous crime, which I would not specify. Because the "farang criminals" got their visas through CMU LI, Thai Immigration, justifiably or not, views the program and its remaining farangs in the LI with suspicion (to say the least). I was told that even if the LI director signs the support letters, Thai Immigration would not accept them right now if we take them to do our visa renewal. To me, Thai Immigration could do their inspection of paperwork and investigation and whatnot, but suspending visa renewal for students in good standing (like myself) and causing all these problems of overstaying... seems to be an overreaction.

Assuming that I do get the paperwork for renewing my education visa this Wed (won't hold my breath of course), could you tell me if I could obtain the visa locally in the CM office, or do I need to go out of the country, like to Vientiane? I'd prefer applying locally, of course; otherwise, that will be a lot of hassle - in terms of wasting both time and money - that none of us deserve. I suppose we just had the misfortune of choosing this school in this country at this time.

thaiboy999 wrote:

When I confronted the director on what we are supposed to do when our visas expire and we are unable to get a renewal, he said we should just let our visas expire.

In the context of this topic it is acceptable to mention the name of the director of the Thai Language Institute of Chiang Mai University. It is most likely public information anyway.

P.S. I did a Google search and found this but do not know if the information is current:

Dr. Matthew John Kay

Director

International Programs

Language Institute

Chiang Mai University

Source: http://www.teflcmu.com/aboutus.html

To clarify, the director I spoke with (who told me over staying my visa is "OK" as long as I don't do anything "dangerous") was a Thai person. He's apparently in charge of the whole LI of CMU. If you go to the Thai version of CMU LI website, scroll down on the main page to "CMULI Newsletter", click on it to open the PDF file. The director's face is in the first two pictures.

I am a foreign student studying Thai language at the Language Institute of Chiang Mai University, starting with a 3-months non-immigrant visa. My class attendance has been 100% perfect. They said they will provide the necessary support documents for me to bring to the local immigration office to renew my visa when the 3 months are up. It was up last week actually but they are unable to provide any documents because their director of the Language Institute, on order from the university president, is refusing to sign any visa related documents. This has been going on for almost a month.

When I confronted the director on what we are supposed to do when our visas expire and we are unable to get a renewal, he said we should just let our visas expire. When I asked him about the potentially serious consequences of over staying with an expired visa, he recommended me "not to do anything dangerous", then it should be "OK". There are many other students who are affected by this irresponsible, unprofessional behavior of the Language Institute at CMU. We paid our tuition (for the entire year) in full, but when it comes to getting the necessary visa, they screw us up through and through.

Stay clear from this school if you are thinking of learning Thai in Chiang Mai. CMU doesn't really want farang students at the Language Institute anyway.

I'm checking out other schools like Payap, etc. Please let me know if you have any good recommendation. Thank you.

Does anyone know where I might be able to find authentic Japanese tatami mats and shoji screens in Chiang Mai please? Thank you!