squarethecircle

I have spent most of the morning reading this thread, because I find the sociological implications of it fascinating. In last week's Archdruid Report, John Micheal Greer did a fascinating piece on the modern narrative of "The Rescue Game". If you don't know what this is, it would be instructive to first read that article over at thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com.

In any case, it quite clearly maps directly onto this discussion, and it is easy to see who has cast themselves as Victims on this thread. Likewise, Michael Moore has clearly defined his role as that of a Rescuer (the Rescuer role usually, but not always, goes to the famous, wealthy and powerful). The problem, as always with any real implementation of The Rescue Game, is a lack of people willing to play the role of Persecutor. Thus, the Victims need to sue people in order to drag them kicking and screaming into the role of Persecutor, because otherwise The Rescue Game couldn't be played. It doesn't really matter what the state of Mississippi did or didn't do in the Rescue Game. It simply matters that a new Persecutor was identified. Likewise, it doesn't really matter what the baker did or why he did it, because he has now been deemed a Persecutor, and there is only one possible, acceptable outcome for his role in this game.

This is all fine and I have no issue with it. It is the way our society is. Other societies throughout history have had their own socially acceptable narratives they used to frame problems. The real problem starts when you get very well spoken people such as one in particular on this thread (and I intentionally won't identify him but everyone knows who that was), who wrote a very lengthy and well reasoned post attempting to speak outside the accepted narrative of "The Rescue Game". Sadly this won't work with those who are playing the game, and it just so happens that the only acceptable narrative in society right now under which the issue of homosexuality can be openly discussed is inside the The Rescue Game mythology.

I too refuse to accept a role in this narrative, and thus will be targeted for the role of Persecutor, despite having said absolutely nothing about the rights of homosexuals and heterosexuals in our society. Because for those playing the game, nobody is allowed to say "I don't want to play".

My take from your post is that you're all fired up from reading a book (congrats!) in the manner of an adolescent and now wish to proselytize to the world to look at every issue in the world from the SIMPLISTIC tunnel vision POV of that book. That is, until you read another book.

I'm not impressed.

I also do not believe your denial of taking a side,

Your post is clearly suggesting that GLBT Americans do not face real oppression in their lives.

That is 100 percent false.

Of course it varies by individual and region.

A GLBT person in Berkeley California is likely to have fewer (if any) issues than a GLBT person in a rural area of the deep south.

Some might say, well why don't all the GLBT move to the islands of tolerance in the U.S. that do exist?

Why should they have to do that and also of course that's not practical for a large portion of people.

To add, feeling strong pressure to be in the CLOSET for economic and social survival is also a form of being oppressed. Of course, racial minority groups don't even have that option (unless they can "pass" as something else) but believe me, the psychological pain of living a secret life is not a healthy way to live. Some GLBT people can't "pass" either so the closet isn't an option for those individuals either.

What about the psychological pain experienced by teenagers or children who get molested by these creeps?

I have spent most of the morning reading this thread, because I find the sociological implications of it fascinating. In last week's Archdruid Report, John Micheal Greer did a fascinating piece on the modern narrative of "The Rescue Game". If you don't know what this is, it would be instructive to first read that article over at thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com.

In any case, it quite clearly maps directly onto this discussion, and it is easy to see who has cast themselves as Victims on this thread. Likewise, Michael Moore has clearly defined his role as that of a Rescuer (the Rescuer role usually, but not always, goes to the famous, wealthy and powerful). The problem, as always with any real implementation of The Rescue Game, is a lack of people willing to play the role of Persecutor. Thus, the Victims need to sue people in order to drag them kicking and screaming into the role of Persecutor, because otherwise The Rescue Game couldn't be played. It doesn't really matter what the state of Mississippi did or didn't do in the Rescue Game. It simply matters that a new Persecutor was identified. Likewise, it doesn't really matter what the baker did or why he did it, because he has now been deemed a Persecutor, and there is only one possible, acceptable outcome for his role in this game.

This is all fine and I have no issue with it. It is the way our society is. Other societies throughout history have had their own socially acceptable narratives they used to frame problems. The real problem starts when you get very well spoken people such as one in particular on this thread (and I intentionally won't identify him but everyone knows who that was), who wrote a very lengthy and well reasoned post attempting to speak outside the accepted narrative of "The Rescue Game". Sadly this won't work with those who are playing the game, and it just so happens that the only acceptable narrative in society right now under which the issue of homosexuality can be openly discussed is inside the The Rescue Game mythology.

I too refuse to accept a role in this narrative, and thus will be targeted for the role of Persecutor, despite having said absolutely nothing about the rights of homosexuals and heterosexuals in our society. Because for those playing the game, nobody is allowed to say "I don't want to play".

My take from your post is that you're all fired up from reading a book (congrats!) in the manner of an adolescent and now wish to proselytize to the world to look at every issue in the world from the SIMPLISTIC tunnel vision POV of that book. That is, until you read another book.

I'm not impressed.

I also do not believe your denial of taking a side,

Your post is clearly suggesting that GLBT Americans do not face real oppression in their lives.

That is 100 percent false.

Of course it varies by individual and region.

A GLBT person in Berkeley California is likely to have fewer (if any) issues than a GLBT person in a rural area of the deep south.

Some might say, well why don't all the GLBT move to the islands of tolerance in the U.S. that do exist?

Why should they have to do that and also of course that's not practical for a large portion of people.

To add, feeling strong pressure to be in the CLOSET for economic and social survival is also a form of being oppressed. Of course, racial minority groups don't even have that option (unless they can "pass" as something else) but believe me, the psychological pain of living a secret life is not a healthy way to live. Some GLBT people can't "pass" either so the closet isn't an option for those individuals either.

What about the psychological pain experienced by children who get molested by these creeps?

Got ya the first time.

The Austrian school of economics are the doomsday crowd.

Heyek, Misis et al.

They believe in "pure capitalism" which must also mean they believe in the virgin Mary.

They want an apocalyptic end to the usd as the global currency, which would mean the collapse or destruction of the United States, which is of course their whole idea. Well, half of it. The other half being establish a new global order led by Beijing and Moscow and their followers in the Third World.

We're talking 21st century fascists and fascism coming out of Austria which is nothing new except the century.

Well this unfair, but in case anyone is listening to what appears to be an outright fabrication:

In fact the Austrians are the Darwinians of economics: they point out that, quite rightly, all advanced economies function as the "sum is greater than the whole" product of millions of individuals working in their own self-interest.

And I challenge anyone person to find an honest counterexample to the point made in Chapter 9 of The Road to Serdom: how and why the worst rise to the top. It applies equally well the world over.

The Mises Touched.

Wreaking Hayek everywhere they go.

As if one Austrian hadn't been enough. More than enough.

Unfair. Hayek offered two of the most important books of the last century regarding economics and power: The Road To Serfdom, and The Fatal Conceit.

Chapter 9 alone of The Road To Serfdom, Why The Worst Rise To The Top, is a concise and immediately applicable description of how this happens.

In fact he left future generations this as a gift, so ridiculing him is either naive or dishonest.

There are plenty of POS academics out there who want to recklessly apply their beliefs to the world (ultimately by force) but don't put any of their own skin in the game.

This people are worthy of ridicule because they are effectively taking a massive dump on future generations and don't give a darn.

Hayek is not one of these and, again, Chapter 9 alone of Why The Worst Rise To The Top, makes that clear. Wanted to post that to clarify in case anyone sees the infantile mocking and associates that with Hayek.

The Mises Touched.

Wreaking Hayek everywhere they go.

As if one Austrian hadn't been enough. More than enough.

Disingenuous and unfair. Hayek composed two of the great works of the 20th century on economics and power, The Road to Serfdom and The Fatal Conceit. Chpt. 9 of Road to Serfdom, on Why The Worst Rise To The Top, alone explains just what it says.

There are plenty of academics who shamelessly advocate for reckless and destructive policies while having no skin in the game. Charlatans like Paul Krugman come to mind.

These people have calculated, "In the long run, we are wrong, but that doesn't matter because in the long run I will be dead."

Such people are the ones in need of ridicule.

Hayek in contrast left a gift to future generations with this, and I don't want anyone to see this infantile mocking and think otherwise.

What odd targets the southern insurgents pick. One day they kill a

local rubber tapper, next day a teacher, and then a policeman......

Just cannot see any rhyme or reason.

I've always wondered about that. No doubt the bomb attacks are genuinely insurgents, but it appears every murder in the south is unquestioningly blamed on insurgents. It seems very similar to the practice of calling many deaths suicides elsewhere in the country.

I read also sometimes it is drug and oil smuggling gangs, at least some of those targeting police/military or perhaps rivals/.

Thank you for all the comments.

I'm prepared for the worst now and ready to leave next month but I just want to get even

with the employer legally simply because he's not honest at all. I don't mind reporting it

to the Labour Office just to scare him. For some months he didn't pay me as much as

he agreed to on the contract. I can show them my passbook to prove this. Are the odds

in my favor or against me?

Sounds like he doesn't respect you; I'd say it's time to move on to find an employer who does respect you.

At 72, he should have known better than to be out on a kayak.

Dunno, saw how my elders died at 80-85 years, in nursing homes, smells like piss and crap and death, think hypothermia while doing what you love is much better.

Fox News is clear about its bias and revels in out, and outperforms CNN and MSNBC on a daily basis. It has a level of honesty none of the other publications mentioned here possess. Way off track but just a kind reminder this entire discussion is illegal according to PRC law. (Like the 3rd wing feminists in Canada who are trying to have someone who simply criticized feminism on Twitter arrested and placed in jail).

How much of the crime is drug related? Are gangs fighting for turf?

Friend who works in homicide division in a large midwest metro said that 90% of his cases are turf-related or "crimes of passion," don't have the statistics on hand but I read most US homicides are gangs fighting for drug turf.

Can you imagine the reaction if everything happened just the same as reported except the shooters shouted Allahu Akbar and blew themselves up?

This appears to be gang warfare with innocent bystanders sometimes the unfortunate victims. Entirely different scenario than a jihadi targeting an establishment and going on a murder rampage.

Crackdown seems to be on people abusing the in-out visa exempt stamps and using that to stay here long-tmerm, what you are doing is not that so no problem. I am trying to figure your schedule but it seems if you will be returning to Thai within in 30 days before your March 2 departure you will not need a visa and can use the entry stamp, no worries.

trump's true colours beginning to show now. says he's open to the idea of american muslims having to carry special IDs. it's neo-fascist rhetoric this. why not just whack a yellow star on their coats and have done with it?

Please reference what he said as far as that. US (including the south) is overall very much accepting of decent and competent people regardless of race, gender, religion, or other outward characteristics. The Black Lives Matters people are pure fraudsters/scammers on this point, but it is overall true that it generally is a melting pot where people succeed if they are decent and productive. So curious where you get this claim that Trump has proposed introducing yellow stars to people on the basis of their religion. If you can't produce evidence then please retract your claim.

What a moron, it is a joke that people like him can be a candidate for the role of president. It is sad that he gets that many support.

A friend pointed out that every president for the last 40 years, since Kennedy beat Nixon, has been the more charismatic candidate. It looks like Hillary Clinton will be going against Trump in the final race, and Trump certainly has more charisma than The Lizard Queen. Barack and Michelle Obama can enjoy their limo rides and the tour circuit, in January 2017 it appears that Trump will be the president of the US. Don't think he can stop the inevitable deterioration of the country but he will be entertaining for sure.

The left has politically won the sympathy of black Americans but for an honest and hardworking person (of any race) leftist hate idealogy is an enemy.

Here is another critique, via http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2015/11/yale-literally-has-its-choice-of-any-high-school-senior-in-the-county-at-it-picked-these-folks.html. Key quotation:

"I once thought that a key goal of “diversity” was to eliminate the in-group/ out-group dynamic that has been so destructive through all of history. But I am increasingly convinced that the true objective of diversity programs as practiced on university campuses is to simply shift the “out-group” tag from one set of people to another. More horrible things are said on campus about whites, males, Asians, wealthy people, straights, frats, etc than I ever heard in my entire lifetime from anyone about, say, African Americans."

At the same time a crime in San Francisco has a legitimate claim of racism: the Asian Americans there claim that they are targeted by groups of young black males for robbery, and further say it is no secret in San Francisco but the authorities will not call it for what it is, ie: racially motivated crime:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/nevius/article/Dirty-secret-of-black-on-Asian-violence-is-out-3265760.php

Strange part is Asians - specifically east Asians - have not had the benefit of the affirmative action programs, and they are effectively treated as whites are, but have managed to do exceptionally well in the US, so well in fact that MIT actually discriminates them in admissions programs.

Not that someone as self-entitled as the students in the report would care about black-on-Asian crime.

I don't know but will say I did a teaching stint here some years back and got "life experience" but do not include it on my resume. I learned one thing: it taught me that I do not have the personality to control a room of 30 hormone-filled teenagers. It would give very practical experience but as far as scoring a similar job back home, don't know.

Apparently there's a video of the explosion.

The video is here :

Doesn't look like it's flying at 30,000 feet to me.

That would be an awful way to die.

"Why are you bringing paedophilia into the argument, unless your intent is to besmirch the cause of those who stand for tolerance by equating them with this vile, cheap slur?"

Well the point is that LGBT mafia opposes discrimination in all forms and certainly went too far in standing behind some of its pedophilia inclined members. There has been much trash-talking of the Bible Belt on here but wanted to point out that the author of "The Pedophile's Guide to Love and Pleasure", Phillip Greaves, was tolerated inside his home state of Colorado, but he published this guide on Amazon in 2010 and a Bible Belt sheriff found it and had his detectives order it, then extradited Mr. Greaves and prosecuted him. The LGBT mafia stood behind Mr. Greaves and it took the work of the detectives of a Bible Belt sheriff to bring him to justice.
The punishment is mild, though, in my opinion - in Kenya they would be stoned to death, in San Francisco NAMBLA is enshrined with an office.

And why it's relevant: I keep seeing people claim that people who oppose the nondiscrimination ordinances are "bigots". I'd say in response there is good reason to question the intentions of those working for these ordinances, on the basis of their behavior elsewhere.

And the homophobic, scared cats of lbgt raise their bigoted heads on TV. The only reason the HERO was rejected by voters in Houston was typical right wing religious wing nut lying money put into ads. How many of you bigoted racist homophobic scared cats even know a ladyboy? Troglodytes all of you. You live in Thailand, you've never been a toilet with women? I spent a pleasant evening helping a ladyboy friend opening her new bar, oh and she has a very male boyfriend. Toglodytes all you religious right wing bigots, yes bigots because that is what you are.

Well I noticed that liberal (so-called "non-bigoted" places) like San Francisco don't have any ethical standards. They don't discriminate based on ethics and the result of that is they end up welcoming a criminal group of perverts like NAMBLA. Another example was the author of a manual for pedophiles in Colorado: he was totally free to do that in Colorado, and wasn't arrested until a sheriff from the Bible Belt found his book on Amazon, ordered it, and had it delivered to him (in felony violation of that state's child pornography statutes). Now I realize there is a difference between adult same-sex relations and pedophilia but the LGBT mafia has gotten mixed up with this and similar scumbag tactics - now I read they want to force the Boy Scouts to change their ethical standards. I get the picture that they and other leftist groups, subconsciously or consciously, want to totally overthrow the Judeo-Christian foundation of our civilization - what they're doing doesn't make sense otherwise.

And still not sure how the whole "bigot" line came about, but it seems this is a browbeating tactic. And for the discrimination question: discrimination is a central function of a rational mind. Of course a rational person would discriminate on a reasonable basis - preferably between good and evil - but part of the basis of a free civilization is you have the right to associate with who you want to associate with. It's stupid to base that on anything other than ethics or practical things but it seems unethical to force people to associate with people they do not want to be around. Part of "mind your own business" is don't force other people to do things they don't want to do.

Carson: "proud of the fact that I believe what God has said … that I believe in a literal six-day creation."

WOW! This guy went to college? He's a brain surgeon so I am pretty sure he did.

Must have skipped the science classes

He never spoke with biologists, astrophysicists, archeologists, palaeontologists or visited a natural history museum?

What a wacky world these GOP types live in.

Well to be fair the mainstream theories for the origination of the universe and of life both rely on similar leaps past logic. Science is supposed to be a system for testing and refining models of the universe, but is suscept to the same cognitive biases as religion. Not that you will find many scientists humble enough to admit this, but the structure of how they form their beliefs about how things came to be is the same way that religionists form their beliefs. The testing/scientific method builds superior models but the actual process by which they arrive at their belief systems is no different (see Sam Harris). Another way to put: the scientific method is superior for testing models of how things work, but scientists themselves form their own beliefs (about the Big Bang and Evolution, in this case) in the same way as Carson forms his belief structure. Same parts of the brain form it.

So I'd say: what a wacko world these liberal media types live in. They see a successful and self-made independent black man and act like they've got a runaway slave on their hands.

US should train and arm moderate Chinese rebels, even if they don't exist today...

Well that's sort of what Taiwan is, Nationalist government who fled to Taiwan after the CCP took over, but both sides officially consider Taiwan a province of China but disagree about the legitimate government of the country. US has protected Taiwan for the past 66 years and I think this is a shining example of a good US foreign intervention.

And some more for a more positive view of China:

Bill Bonner, the noted - and highly successful - conservative American politics/economy/philosophy observer, recently posted that China is NOT failing: after opening up over the past 30 years, its middle class is the biggest on the planet.

-They lie about their statistics - (but does anybody believe that the real unemployment figure in the US is under 6%?)

-They have a two-tiered system of well-connected elites and then regular people - (but any ideas how the Clintons amassed a $125 million treasury without ever creating any actual products or services? same for Bushes)

-It doesn't need to adapt to a western style system of democracy in order to achieve its goals, it is operating under an entirely different philosophical structure that incorporates the wishes of the populace in a different manner.

Don't have a link because these points were made in an email but felt this was relevant.

Bonner adds: "Western analysts once used Chinese electric production and industrial output as key gauges of Chinese economic activity. That made sense because growing nations in the early stages of capitalism need one to produce the other."

Worth adding that the fascist/totatlitarian tactics of the CCP have the same faults as FA Hayek points out in The Road to Serfdom, but wanted to add the point it's not failing - how much it will mirror the fall of the Soviet Union, we shall see.

I would feel more confident of America's bravado in regards to responding to threats from China if the US had actually won a military operation since WW2. China has sat back with their feet up watching USA blow $3 Trillion in the Middle East getting nowhere. The smart money would have to be on China winning this little skirmish.

Utterly ridiculous drivel. How many wars has China won? Other than slaughtering the Uighur people, and quite a few Tibetans, and taking out the political detractors at home, where is their military experience? Sure, they have a huge army. But, what do you do with an army of millions in this day and age?

Granted the US adventures in the middle east have been unmitigated disasters, resulting in tremendous instability and the growth of AL Queda, the Taliban, and ISIS. They have hurt the US on so many levels. Foolhardy and mentally retarded men planned those campaigns.

The US has won two decisive campaigns recently. Grenada and Panama. LOL.

Well kind of a side point but I'm not aware of them slaughtering Uighurs. They are certainly brutal towards Uighur/Kazakh terrorists, and that includes killing their associates in flat-out assassinations, no justice process, but not aware of out-right slaughtering. Then again I wouldn't want my country taken over by China in its current state, but that's a side point.

I read USMC General "Mad Dog" Maddis saying that up until 2006 the US strategy was a success in Iraq, soundly completing the mission, after that there was no strategy given from the US political structure (ultimately from the US people) and no clear mission. In a full out-and-out war versus, say, Iran, there would be a clear mission and that would mean destruction to the dictators of Tehran.

Another thing that comes to mind is something a Korean Army friend said, he said that in Vietnam the US military could literally watch Soviet-made antiaircraft guns being built but due to Rules of Engagement were not allowed to fire on them until they were firing first. In contrast, the VietCong were afraid to attack Koreans via sniper fire because if they did so and were successful, the South Korean army would respond with extreme brutality on the villages the snipers came from.

Another success, though, is in Thailand, since as many will tell you, the reason the Communist forces were unsuccessful on this side of the Mekong is due to US support of the Thai counterinsurgency, think that was based out of Nakhon Phanom.

Lets see, the arguments for not showing humanitarian help to people fleeing from a war torn country are:

• The European countries dont take care of their pensioners. Fully agree, but what exactly does that have to do with these refugees? Why not argue that point for instance when another 84 Billion Euros is being dumped in the bottomless pit called Greece?
• All the refugees are thieves, criminals and will rape our daughters (and any slightly milder variation of this fable). So far hardly any problems with this group of refugees have been reported. Of course, some will say (as it is so nicely put by some member above) the press is being "gagged" so therefore we dont hear it. Anyone who thinks that the German, Swedish, Dutch, or Danish press is being gagged about something as hot of an issue (and which is the only thing all the right-wing islamophobes in Europe want to hear) is completely bonkers, or just fled from North Korea and is not used to freedom of speech yet,
• Refugees only cost money! True, but we happily ignore of course that there are local Europeans who benefit from the presence of these refugees as well (especially in the retail), or that within the group of refugees from Syria, there are many who are very eager to work. "Yeah, but then they are taking OUR jobs", the anti's are screaming. I have read of many volunteer projects where refugees are now working. Most of them it seems, are absolutely not comfortable with holding up their hand.
• There are IS terrorists amongst the refugees. This is an argument which bears no ground what-so-ever. From the 700,000 refugees that entered Europe this year, not one has been found to be a terrorist. Actually, not one Muslim terrorist attack in Europe was done by someone from outside Europe. The Muslims that committed the attacks were all home bred.
• Europe is being overrun by the refugee tsunami: So far 700,000 refugees have entered the EU this year. 700K on a total population of 508 million. Thats a tsunami of 0.14%. To put it in perspective, why not compare it literally with the Tsunami of 2004 on Sumatra. The waves then were up to 10M high. If the tsunami was 0.14% of that, it would have been a "flood wave" of 1.4cm. I hardly think Sumatra would have had an issue with that kind of "tsunami".

I think there is really only one reason why there is such a resentment against these refugees, and my guess is that it has little to do with the arguments above. In my opinion it has to do with the fear of Islam which has been conveniently created by morons like George W in the beginning of this millennium, and which has been happily adopted by the right wing politicians in Europe, with the Dutch Gert Wilders and Jean-Marie Le Pen as its figureheads.

Regarding the OP, the burning of refugee centers brings us back to "Crystal Night" like practices and should be condemned by anybody with a bit of compassion for other humans. After all, if burning the homes of refugees is OK, what would keep them from burning for instance old peoples homes (they only cost money), or mentally handicap institutes (they have no added value to society), or the salvation army centers (drug addicts and homeless people)?

Yes westerners hate Islam and its draconian ways,a society of people who don't integrate nor have any respect for the religions and laws of the countries to which they are seeking abode your spot on.

Stoning people to death,making woman cover up,beheading people in public like some sick freak show,chopping off the hands of those that steal,not allowing women to drive,that's some of the bad points of this wonderful religion,would you care to point out the good bits please.

Well chicken shawarmas. Then again North Indians make similar dishes and they tend to be good immigrants.