lookpapa

3 hours ago, FolkGuitar said:

 

R&N House,  Ratchamanka Soi 3.   Restaurant is on the west side of the street, about 100m from Ratchamanka Rd.

You can see the men playing in the photo.

 

 

Thank you. 

On 9/5/2019 at 7:33 AM, FolkGuitar said:

I see a group of older men playing Chess every day at noon in a small restaurant down the soi from Mungkala Chinese Clinic.  Looks to be 4-5 fellows involved. Restaurant is on the west side of the street, about 100m from Ratchamanka Rd.

Hi Folk guitar, can you give me more exact location, like the name of restaurant, please, I'm there now. 

2 hours ago, Briggsy said:

I would love to see the accounting entries for that.

555.I am a retired accountant but I wouldn't ask for that. It's none of my business. TIT. 

Expats are limited in numbers.  The numbers in the pool don't have the same cross section of the society as back home. 

So the problem is with the sample.  It limits your choices of compatible acquaintances. 

Friends are even harder to make. If we're talking about a mixed couple the difficulty also arrises if their wives/ partners aren't compatible. There maybe a pissing contest/ keeping up with the Joneses scenario too. 

Plus we have a class society here sometimes based on where they hail from. Both regionally, families and employment wise. 

Sometimes oddballs can be endearing, but.. ????

9 hours ago, kilt said:

>>Flew to BKK with the agent in the morning to Immigration to get my visa sticker, flew back the same day, all expenses, airfare paid by them. 

Go for it, they do everything for you.

The price is the same but you get to know who takes care of you and develop a personal relationship.

You got nothing to lose .<<

 

So, working with Star Visa for the Elite, they charge the same as Elite directly but they pay for your airfare to Bangkok and back as well?

Yes.  I personally vouch for that. No extra cost, they of course get a commission from Elite as agents but absorb all costs related to your service. That is why I said you got nothing to lose. 

There is no police interview as far as I know, any checkups done without your input. The 90day reportings are done for you ,in my case by Star Visa as my agents.

I got the 5 year one inserted in my passport with a 1 year visa stamp. Each time I leave the coutry another one year stamp gets one put in it. And so on and so forth until the 5 year expires.

you'll never have to worry about immigration again while you're a member.

You can do it directly by internet with the Elite company but I found the personalised service by STAR Visa even better. They take care of everything,forms,photos, bank accounts,even debit card local thai account, nothing is too much trouble.

The price is the same but you get to know who takes care of you and develop a personal relationship.

You got nothing to lose .

 I have obtained an a elite card through Star visa 2 weeks ago. Everything went smooth, no extra charges, top class service.

Flew to BKK with the agent in the morning to Immigration to get my visa sticker, flew back the same day, all expenses, airfare paid by them. 

Go for it, they do everything for you. 

I'm interested in finding a chess Club or some casual venue to meet with others and play few social games. 

Any such already exist? 

Time to re-assess what Thailand is all about. Maybe this time the rural poor will finally get representation . So what if her name is Shinawatra? Who cares? A new era is about to open with hi so people forced to share. About time.

I agree, this editorial is very biased.

Of course it is. Thai media - all of it - is pliable and is not a vehicle for free speech. Thailand's media was described in October last year as "restrained" by the Press Freedom Index. In this index - regarded as the most accurate of its kind - Thailand is number 130, behind far behind countries such as Cambodia, Nepal and Angola. I am so sad that most of the farangs writing in Thai Visa demonstrate the same right-wing tendencies that the country's media does. Perhaps most of them are stupid and cannot think for themselves.

You're not far wrong.Most expat farangs are only concerned that their little piece of Thai Nirvana is being disturbed to the extent that they may have to leave. That's what's motivating their posts and not the plight of the millions of poor people of Thailand. Why , they also don't want the status quo to change just like those who have all the power now.

These anti foreigner sentiments from reds are no surprise to me. Redshirts are fast going down the road of racial/ethnic bigotry and this coupled with their desire to silence criticism by violence reveals their evil intentions.

For the record I am a farang who certainly hasn't found any nirvana in Thailand, just a family and trying to get on with life without living in fear of being attacked or burned out of my house by lunatics because I disagree with them.

Perhaps most redshirts and their supporters are stupid and cannot think for themselves? Perhaps it is all of them and not most?

I said most , not per se your kind.How about the sexpats and deviants who come in their hordes to satisfy their desires without a thought of how those who do it for them ended up in their plight. The jetsam and flotsam of second class Thai citizens who never had a choice , no education , no opportunities. Now that their frustrations overboil some farangs here whinge that the Thailand of their dreams or should I say playground is no more. Hey, it's an extreme hardship for some to be housebound by the curfew. Who feels sorry for them? Not me. Let them go home where it's safe and cosy and where they have some rights others in Thailand don't have. At least these farangs have a choice but not the Issaan poor.

I agree, this editorial is very biased.

Of course it is. Thai media - all of it - is pliable and is not a vehicle for free speech. Thailand's media was described in October last year as "restrained" by the Press Freedom Index. In this index - regarded as the most accurate of its kind - Thailand is number 130, behind far behind countries such as Cambodia, Nepal and Angola. I am so sad that most of the farangs writing in Thai Visa demonstrate the same right-wing tendencies that the country's media does. Perhaps most of them are stupid and cannot think for themselves.

You're not far wrong.Most expat farangs are only concerned that their little piece of Thai Nirvana is being disturbed to the extent that they may have to leave. That's what's motivating their posts and not the plight of the millions of poor people of Thailand. Why , they also don't want the status quo to change just like those who have all the power now.

I quote from the article:"let's imagine if this was Paris, London or New York, the reds doing what they have done, they wouldn't have lasted for more than a week."

The author doesn't realise that this is precisely what happened in Paris a couple or so years ago when tens of thousands rioted with arson, looting and death and injuries but the police were able to contain it within a week. Because they wanted to and did what their Government instructed them as opposed to in Bangkok. The author has to decide whether he's going to depict this in terms of a 1st world democracy or the real facts of the Thai society. I think the author is part of the establishment and by his slant he refuses to acknowledge the injustices of his country. When a society is in turmoil and findemental change is needed the kind of acts by the reds are commonplace. Look at history and revolutions elsewhere. There's a saying that you got to crack eggs to make an omlette.

Prudent security measure. Those outside after that time should be immediately restrained and detained.

In some ways, this might be a danger time for farangs, the reds are now a deranged mob, and there could be random violence or attacks anywhere.

More than likely. The reds aren't gonna go away any time soon. Bombs,car bombs, arson and random shootings will be the order of the day from now on. Baghdad on Chao Phaya.

Thaksin alluded to this when interviewed. Guerilla tactics he mentioned. Whether it was a call by him or just an observation , who knows?

The people upcountry are fully aware of these events, and each successive setback for them has brought them closer to the current populist fervor and their stubborn defiance of forces that, in pre-Thaksin times, they would have never dared to tangle with.

I think you have an overly active imagination or, at the very least, a great sense of hyperbole.

You may be describing 1% of the population, but my inlaws are red supporters and have absolutely no idea of anything you just said. What they know, by their own admission, is that the village culture says they should support the red movement, so they support it. There is no sense of righteous indignation except that created by the vitriol spewed by the UDD.

They freely admit that their economic livelihood is better under the Abhisit government than under any Thaksin compliant government, but that does not change their perspective. Their voice in politics is the same as it has always been. They get paid around 300 baht to vote for the person the pooyai bahn tells them to, and they consider it breaking a covenant not to do this. They would lose face in the village. This is the reality on the ground.

This is the real face of Issan. This is the majority of those upcountry voters you are trying to tell us are incensed at being disenfranchised.

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

The only people disenfranchised in this little suare are the elite UDD leaders. They need to be removed, and their treasonous propaganda needs to be countered by more rational elements of society.

Everyone wants to help and listen to the Issan people, with the exception of the leaders of the UDD who would rather use them for their own nefarious means. The problem with Issan is the very people that rural poor look to for guidance, are the exact same people whose only interest is in enriching themselves. This division in society will stop only when the elements inside the red movement fanning the flames of hate are caught and eliminated.

I can tell you with 100% surety that the majority of red supporters in Issan will not be incensed by the capture and punishment of the terrorists within the UDD organisation if the pooyai bahn tells them they should not be.

This is all about trust and information. The people are largely innocent pawns being used by people who care nothing for their well being. The best thing anyone could do for them is end these senseless protests and stop filling their heads with false vitrious propaganda.

I'm afraid your assessment is only going to prolong the plight of the Isaan people which you so ably describe. What you describe about the best that could be done for them is keeping them ignorant for ever. The best that could be done for them is to get them some education and open their eyes and offer them opportunities for the future. You're happy for them the way they are and have been for decades and longer. You're advocating the status quo for the sake of peace and quiet.

You're probably doing for your inlaws which should have been done by a decent society. I think a lot of farangs who married into an Isaan family become their social security safety net.

A country which abandons a big percenatge of their population is asking for social unrest. That's what we're seeing now.

Okay, first I apologize for getting a bit snippy. It is way past my bed time and am getting grumpy.

Plus you actually sound like a very reasonable person. And believe it or not, I don't see that too often with red supporters.

I am not going to try suggest how to solve the problems of the poor in the north or the rest of Thailand but there have been some great posts I have read on these threads with some great ideas. By the way none of them involved what the reds are doing now.

One of the things that upsets me about the whole red movement, beyond all their actions, is that they claim to represent the poor but provide absolutely NO requests from the government to help them. In fact, if you go back and look at the very early quotes from red leaders they made it clear that they would NEVER support Abhisit regardless of what policies he has enacted. So, the first thing we need to do is understand and accept that this red movement has NOTHING to do with the poor except they are possibly being led to a slaughter by the red leaders.

Abhisit has guaranteed free healthcare, free schooling and school supplies as well as given cash handouts to the poor of this country and increasing payments to the elderly. This is just a few things he has done in 18 months to help the poor of Thailand. Meanwhile, Thaksin had 6 years and it seems these folks in the north are worse than ever before based on their actions. Yet, nobody can name one thing Abhisit did to hurt them or one policy he took back of Thaksins. In fact, he has only made them better such as requiring no payment for healthcare instead of the 30 baht program that Thaksin put in place that was a disaster.

So, please tell me how this is about the plight of poor in the north???? The only thing that can be said is Thaksin was buying their votes and he provided loans to them wich he knew they would not be able to pay back and didn;t enforce any kind of rules how the loans needed to be spent with the results that only the local leaders up there got rich and they are the ones who seem to easily be able to mold the minds of the masses up there.

This movement is nothing about democracy either though it is a great buzz word. Nobody should be so ignorant to think the poor farmers in the north could give a flying f--- about politics as long as they are doing okay.

So, what is the movement about? Thaksin making promises and payments to leaders to help them get more rich and promises to the poor they will get more hand outs and their debts forgiven if they can bring down this gov't. Do hand out really help? As I mentioned these folks are pretty upset now so it is obvious Thaksin did NOTHING to help improve opportunities up there to allow them to support themselves even with all the subsidies and guaranteed prices for rice.

And I don't know this for fact but have to assume if these people are that poor then they are likely very uneducated as things such as politics and democracy and simply believe what their red leaders are telling them.

Bottom line, in my opinion, if you care about the poor up there then the worst thing you can do is support this red movement as it is nothing but a sham that is going to hurt the people up there now and in the long run. Think about it ... have you heard one demand from any red leader for any improved conditions for the poor or farmers or have they just been dead set on taking down this government at almost any cost.

And as for bugets, seats and military appointments ... this is all nonsense. There is no rush accept for Thaksin running low on funds and knowing the longer he is aways from seized assets the more impossible it will be to get back. Not to mention this is a power hungry dude who thrives on power and literally wants to be appointed ruler of Thailand. Pretty sad when you think about it that there is few if any pictures of The King within the Red movement. If you haven't had the chance, read up on what a great man he is and how his love of Thailand and its people is well beyond question. He is the King but he is above politics and there could be no reason to for Thais not to be displaying his picture, as is customary, at a rally this big unless ... (big jump here but need to make it to avoid getting to into this topic) ... what the gov't has stated recently is true in regards to their plans to overthrow the monarchy.

And why would they do this? All it takes it to go back and see the cult or personality Thaksin was creating around himself.

No, you've still got it wrong. This isn't about government handouts or programs--a benevolent fascist is still a fascist. It's about power, and if the people from the provinces continue to be marginalized from the political process (for example, "new politics"), leaders who are very hostile to their interests will come along, and at that point they'll have no recourse. As a collective group, they may be poor and undereducated, but it doesn't take long to explain to someone that they're being disenfranchised and make them believe it in light of the events of the past few years.

"they're being disenfranchised"

This is the crux of the problem. All the other arguments are furphy. There's no way of avoiding this truth by arguing about Thaksin and vote buying etc. About 20 million people in Thailand aren't represented properly in political life and are thought of as second class citizens. They're the butt of jokes among the elite of the country. They're kept uneducated to serve the hi so middle and upper classes.

They need to be recognised as human beings and given some share of the spoils of the past decades of Thai economical pie. The Democrats failed to bring them on side by social policies and had they done so they would've got a mandate in their own right.

It's not too late but they'd have to be more flexibile. Unfortunately I think there are forces behind the current government pulling the strings to stop any change to Thai society. The PM does not have the resolve to act and the military is split. That's where we're at until someone steps up and becomes a hero and embraces the reds as people instead of terrorists. Real terrorists could have really wreaked havoc in death and injuries. It's so easy in a crowded city.

Thank you everybody for showing how incompetent the government is in this country. Honestly, as much as I don't think Thaksin should come back, he would have the balls to do something about a situation like this. Unlike the current PM who sits in his office and gives empty threats of a crackdown. Maybe the reds are right. Abhisit has sure shown it the last few weeks that he's unfit to handle any critical situations. How can a government be in power that can't even maintain order in its nations capital.

Absolutely spot on. He should resign just for being inept. Maybe they should bring back Chuan Leekpai to replace him and let him negotiate out of this mess.

Nothing, I repeat, nothing will solve this crisis short of an election overseen by UN inspectors. Otherwise more of the same with one side accusing the other of cheating.

This society lost their way, the gap between the Bangkok people and the rural folk is too big to bridge by the current lot of politicians.

IMHO the PM is a puppet of those who don't want the status quo changed. Thay want to keep the country people in their places by denying them proper representation in the political life of the country. In other democracies there are political parties such as a Farmers Party or Country Party or such like to give people on the land a voice. In Thailand rural folk are only good as taxi drivers or domestics or rice farmers to be exploited by the middle men.

It started with Thaksin and he may still be financing the reds but the stakes are higher now. The've let a tiger out of its cage and it's hungry. Hungry people are dangerous.

The Democrats should live up to their name and bring these people to their side by listening to their plight instead of stonewalling and protecting the hob knobs.

...It seems that many ordinary Thais have no problem with Abhisit or Korn, EXCEPT that they are surrounded by others whom they believe to be corrupt and CRITICALLY, fail to weed them out and thus are thus seen to be not even handed...

What do they expect when they continually vote for the same corrupt bunch of Newins, Chavalits, Chalerms, Banharns et al? Honestly, these people complaining about corruption, and their position in society, have had nine chances since 1988 to do something about it by voting for fresh politicians, yet what do they do? They take the short term money and choose the same same but definitely not different everytime. Do they never wonder that if they had a few good men at the top, with a team that they had full control over, rather than a fractious coalition with every party competing for its share of the loot, then they and the country would be better off?

Exactly the point. Real change will be a long time coming.

In the meantime, Abhisit could gain a great deal of credit by firing some of these people before dissolving the house.

Ultimately I hope cooler heads will prevail and support incremental change for the good.

Read my lips, he can't fire anybody, he is a puppet. Without all the guys in his coalition he's got nothing. The only guy who's ever had the numbers was Thaksin.Without the rural poor nobody in Thai politics can have a proper mandate. The sooner the Democrats come to their senses and realise this , the sooner Thaksin will cease to be a player. Now all we need is a pragmatist and it'll be over. At the moment it's loggerheads because the powers can't bring themselves to give a little to those who toil the land,work the factories and constructions under terrible conditions. Have you ever seen a construction site in BKK? That's an eye openner , people live on site in squallor , no safety and long hours for a pittance.

Would you drive a taxi in BKk on a 12-14 hour shift for a daily wage for substinance? Just a couple of examples of exploitation and no choice for anything better.

If it was all about the substance of debate it's a no contest. The question is why the PM gave his time to the Red shirt leaders who are unqualified to contest him around the table. The answer is because the red shirts represent the poorest of Thailand (as distinct from Thaksin) and they're uneducated and some of the elite (read PAD) want to keep them that way.

This conflict now goes beyond Thaksin's issues. He maybe financing it but once the shackles are off it's anybody's guess how it'll end. If the red shirts remain resolute ( a big if) they can't lose. The end of an elitist society in Thailand must be close as the gap between the haves and the havenots are growing. It's better to yield a bit now than have a proper revolution. An election will appease the reds but the politicians will still win (read the educated people) and so the status quo will remain. The only thing which may change is that the next government maybe more "poor people friendly" ei. they'll be more beholden. Too much greed is bad for the ruling classes too, history proves that. The 9 months delay Abhisit is proposing is a furfy, he just wants to take the wind out of the reds's sails.

What a load of nonsense.

First of all for saying that an elitist society is coming to an end.

It is clear that you are unable to distinguish between 'elitist' ( a meaningless term), 'haves and have nots' (another meaningless term which avoids a distinguishing of classes) and the 'poorest' (a poor attempt to presumably separate the peasantry from other classes).

You dare to use the term 'ruling class', but run away from identifying the working class.

In short, you throw around various wishy-washy definitions of class war like a drunken man but in reality you have not got a clue.

The reds distinct from Thaksin? So that's your game.

As Thaksin said in his recent message to the troops 'Its not about me, its about Thailand'.

Nobody believes him and nobody believes you.

No, it's not "my game". That's the game the reds are playing now in the "debate". It's not a bad game plan using it against Abhisit who'd like to distance himself from the military who are pulling his strings. The working class , especially in terms of Thailand don't need to be clarified, it's self explanatory. The people who've been exploited by the Elite.(as distinct from "elitist")

There's no need for a revolution if the ruling classes would give a bit to the poorest and not be so greedy. The evidence is so apparent, if you live in Bangkok you can't avoid seeing it.

Look at them gallovanting in the Emporium and Paragon for instance then contrast that of the rural folks. Look at the private school pupils and contrast that to the village schools .

No wonder that a debate like that on TV is a no contest.

Why is this government scared of going to an election? Why would'nt they be, they know they're likely to lose. There's nothing unusual about govenments going to the polls early. In fact in many countries the government engineers that to have an election at their choosing when it advantages them. Clearly Abhisit fears an election now. If he thought he could win he'd grab at it. After all he's a politician. Everyone knows that in particular in Thailand being elected to run the place is a way to riches. The only PM in the last few decades who was not like that is Anand.

Thai society is going through turmoil and it's long overdue. Thaksin was a bit different from the norm as he tried to do something for the rural poor when nobody else would. Certainly he did it because they were his constituents, ie. they voted him in and he benefited. So what else is new? Why don't the Democrats make the same people their constituents? The answer is obvious, the status quo might be changed somewhat and some people who are priviliged wouldn't like it.

The fact is that other counties went through tumultous times like this and came through better for it. What's the saying, "you can't make an omelette without breaking an egg"?

Except that you fail to identify what sort of revolution you are advocating.

A bourgeois revolution? A proletarian revolution?

You don't know and you don't understand beyond probably wearing a Che Guevara T-shirt.

Or maybe you really do think there can be a revolution of the peasantry led by petty-bourgeois elements a la Cuba.

One thing is clear. Revolutions are not calibrated by greed, but by objective class forces none of which you comprehend.

Not that you are completely naive about the situation.

Re Thaksin in your meally-mouthed reference to 'ie. they voted him in and he benefited.' ie not only do you here explicitly support corruption, you support Thaksin's greed as well.

So much for a revolutionary position.

Some dumb Thaksin apologists put it out that they are supporting the lower classes, well some of them anyway.

However, the apologists are not opposed to the status quo (re class power) whatsoever

What they, in practice, are supporting, is a personalised split in the ruling class represented by Thaksin.

Any protestations to the contrary should be summarily dismissed for the dissembling it is.

Any revolution that changes the status quo is an event which can benefit Thailand. It doesn't matter if it comes from the bourgeois or the proletarian. For Thailand's sake it better come from the educated intelligentia/ business people who have a compassion for rural folk and willing to give up some ill gotten gains.

In this context one could say that Thaksin is doing exactly that as he's financing the reds. IMO the reds will have just as much impact on Thaksin if he comes back and gets re-instated as he on them. That's what Abhisit and his supporters are scared of, a shift away from the present power structure . In this scenario the military may have to be put in their places, that is a defence force instead of an internal security force and puppet masters to PMs.

You're badly mistaken if you think that a sweet talking Abhisit who learnt his skills of manipulations in Oxford is a true representative for all people in Thailand. A pretty boy bidding the policies of others (including the military) . Now he's trying to cuddle up to the rural folk by trying to buy them off with forgiving their debt. Last week he was telling the military to submit their military wish lists so they'll be appeased. The guy is so obvious Blind Freddy can see it. Except you.

Dear SurinLA

It's the PAD who insulted your people when they wanted to disenfranchise your people saying that you can't be trusted to vote as you're not educated enough. And that's the way they want to keep it.

I've read this thread and the one on the earlier talks. There is clearly a lot of admiration for the way the PM has handled himself. No more than I would expect from someone whose debating skills were honed on one of the planets more famous stages rather than where they took place today, also against far more equal intellects than he faced today.

One Question.

Do you think he won over any voters in Nakorn Nowhere ?

If it was all about the substance of debate it's a no contest. The question is why the PM gave his time to the Red shirt leaders who are unqualified to contest him around the table. The answer is because the red shirts represent the poorest of Thailand (as distinct from Thaksin) and they're uneducated and some of the elite (read PAD) want to keep them that way.

This conflict now goes beyond Thaksin's issues. He maybe financing it but once the shackles are off it's anybody's guess how it'll end. If the red shirts remain resolute ( a big if) they can't lose. The end of an elitist society in Thailand must be close as the gap between the haves and the havenots are growing. It's better to yield a bit now than have a proper revolution. An election will appease the reds but the politicians will still win (read the educated people) and so the status quo will remain. The only thing which may change is that the next government maybe more "poor people friendly" ei. they'll be more beholden. Too much greed is bad for the ruling classes too, history proves that. The 9 months delay Abhisit is proposing is a furfy, he just wants to take the wind out of the reds's sails.

What a load of nonsense.

First of all for saying that an elitist society is coming to an end.

It is clear that you are unable to distinguish between 'elitist' ( a meaningless term), 'haves and have nots' (another meaningless term which avoids a distinguishing of classes) and the 'poorest' (a poor attempt to presumably separate the peasantry from other classes).

You dare to use the term 'ruling class', but run away from identifying the working class.

In short, you throw around various wishy-washy definitions of class war like a drunken man but in reality you have not got a clue.

The reds distinct from Thaksin? So that's your game.

As Thaksin said in his recent message to the troops 'Its not about me, its about Thailand'.

Nobody believes him and nobody believes you.

No, it's not "my game". That's the game the reds are playing now in the "debate". It's not a bad game plan using it against Abhisit who'd like to distance himself from the military who are pulling his strings. The working class , especially in terms of Thailand don't need to be clarified, it's self explanatory. The people who've been exploited by the Elite.(as distinct from "elitist")

There's no need for a revolution if the ruling classes would give a bit to the poorest and not be so greedy. The evidence is so apparent, if you live in Bangkok you can't avoid seeing it.

Look at them gallovanting in the Emporium and Paragon for instance then contrast that of the rural folks. Look at the private school pupils and contrast that to the village schools .

No wonder that a debate like that on TV is a no contest.

Why is this government scared of going to an election? Why would'nt they be, they know they're likely to lose. There's nothing unusual about govenments going to the polls early. In fact in many countries the government engineers that to have an election at their choosing when it advantages them. Clearly Abhisit fears an election now. If he thought he could win he'd grab at it. After all he's a politician. Everyone knows that in particular in Thailand being elected to run the place is a way to riches. The only PM in the last few decades who was not like that is Anand.

Thai society is going through turmoil and it's long overdue. Thaksin was a bit different from the norm as he tried to do something for the rural poor when nobody else would. Certainly he did it because they were his constituents, ie. they voted him in and he benefited. So what else is new? Why don't the Democrats make the same people their constituents? The answer is obvious, the status quo might be changed somewhat and some people who are priviliged wouldn't like it.

The fact is that other counties went through tumultous times like this and came through better for it. What's the saying, "you can't make an omelette without breaking an egg"?

I've read this thread and the one on the earlier talks. There is clearly a lot of admiration for the way the PM has handled himself. No more than I would expect from someone whose debating skills were honed on one of the planets more famous stages rather than where they took place today, also against far more equal intellects than he faced today.

One Question.

Do you think he won over any voters in Nakorn Nowhere ?

If it was all about the substance of debate it's a no contest. The question is why the PM gave his time to the Red shirt leaders who are unqualified to contest him around the table. The answer is because the red shirts represent the poorest of Thailand (as distinct from Thaksin) and they're uneducated and some of the elite (read PAD) want to keep them that way.

This conflict now goes beyond Thaksin's issues. He maybe financing it but once the shackles are off it's anybody's guess how it'll end. If the red shirts remain resolute ( a big if) they can't lose. The end of an elitist society in Thailand must be close as the gap between the haves and the havenots are growing. It's better to yield a bit now than have a proper revolution. An election will appease the reds but the politicians will still win (read the educated people) and so the status quo will remain. The only thing which may change is that the next government maybe more "poor people friendly" ei. they'll be more beholden. Too much greed is bad for the ruling classes too, history proves that. The 9 months delay Abhisit is proposing is a furfy, he just wants to take the wind out of the reds's sails.

They all make very good points. If the reds really want to see and and to the stalemate then they must be willing to compromise. Ultimatums will get them nowhere.

Not quite. Ultimatums got them to talk to Abhisist directly when he initially refused. The trend now is favouring the red shirts. They've remained non violent and have symphatisers in Bangkok. As long as they keep up the pressure the Government will have to agree to elections soon.The constitution question is a red herring to stall by the Government. They don't think they have the numbers to win an election, their coalition allies are fickle. The disruptions by the reds to commercial life can be even worse if they rejected by the Government. The only compromise possible is for the Government to allow elections about 2 months from now. That'll get the reds off the streets and people can resume their normal every day activities. A possible solution would be an election for a trade off for Thaksin to get clemency but barred from politics for ever. When he comes back and he breaches the terms of his clemency they could put him under house arrest incommunicado. Shades of Burma. It's not a perfect solution but there will never be one. At least this way they'll have more control over him than now when he's a loose canon.

He fantasizes that he will be welcomed back with a big parade.

Earth to Thaksin -- Thailand is just not that into you!

actually thailand loves khun T

Actually some in Thailand do love him. Yes, people get paid to rallies but this is the norm. Poor people must be reimbursed as they couldn't afford to travel and spend time on political activities; that doesn't mean that they don't have preferences as to who should be in government.

The country is genuinely split in their political alliances. Of course Thaksin mines this for his own purposes just like the other side use the Bangkok elite to stop him.It's a power struggle which must be brought to a conclusion before the country can move on.Hopefully this wekend will bring a definitive end to it although I doubt it. The best two scenarios would be either for the red shirts unable to bring out significant numbers and therefore fail or that they topple the government and elections are held. A mexican stand off is the worst scenario as things fester on. If Thaksin had the guts he'd land in his private jet in Chiang Mai and lead a movement himself , maybe even set up an alternate government in the former Lanna kingdom. He could even claim that it's his legitemate government which was overtaken by a coup when he was out of the country. If he did that all decision by this government and the legal cases against him could be claimed by him as invalid .

Obviously he would be accused as inticing a civil war but these things were negotiated before by the highest authority in the Kingdom.

Trying to manipulate things from afar is not going help Thaksin after this weekend, this is the last throw of the dice. In poker parlance it's all in, gambling everything on the "river".

Hang Dong

More specifically Lanna Pinery Home moobahn on the Canal road near the Samoeng intersection.

It takes a lot of baggage you had back home to self exile yourself and become a minority in an Asian country. Each and everyone of you should look within and analyse what made you do it and the price you pay.

Sounds like you are jealous ...

Huh? In that case I did not manage to convey my message to you.