birdi9

I thank everybody that has so far contributed by making comments, suggestions, recommendations or otherwise. Such comments have been very beneficial, particularly that they have come from people with differing view points.

So thanks again and I don't have any further need for discussion on this topic at this time, though I will come back to look at them again sometimes in future. Regards - birdi9

 

3 hours ago, DaRoadrunner said:

If this were Thais renting the house, they would have trashed the place, pissed and shat in every room and left.

 

Have you heard anything further from the landlord? Are they demanding money? If not and the landlord does not have a copy of your passport I guess you could just leave.

 

You could get some legal advice first so you know where you stand before making your decision, but I suspect it's not worth the hassle and will only turn your hair grey.

I think the landlord badly needs me to stay in her house as the house was not rented for very long time prior to myself renting it.

 

Also it is the first house that I have rented in Thailand. I accepted the asking rental price which was and is way higher that its today's rental value

8 hours ago, darrendsd said:

Terrible advice which could lead to the OP being arrested at the Airport or Border if the Landlord decides to file a Police complaint and yes this has happened before in Thailand

 

OP you have 3 choices

 

Tell your lady friend you know she has scammed you and you want the money back in 7 days 

 

Go to the Police and report her for theft - you will probably need to give them a few thousand baht to take action - Thais normally confess pretty quickly when the police start to get heavy

 

Pay the 5 months rent again

 

At the end of the day YOU are responsible to ensure the landlord receives the rent - not your lady friend not your liason - you

 

So it's you that needs to resolve the problem

 

 

Thanks Darrendsd for good advice, particularly on reporting her to the police and possible stand that police may take. 

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

I would do the following-

 

1.  You have given notice of moving- until you move pay the current rent at the contract rate.

 

2.  Write a letter in Thai  (using a translator from the English) indicating that  you need to sit down directly with the property owner/landlord to  find a solution to the situation and indicating in the letter that you have signed receipts for the alleged missing 5 months rent that indicate it has been paid.  In the letter do not indicate anything about the suspicions you have about forged contracts; forged signatures or anything you suspect is illegal.  Remember the defamation law in Thailand is much different than in the West.

 

As part of the letter make sure that  you maintain an atmosphere of wanting to settle any disagreements. If you can- send the Thai and English version direct to the Landlord by EMS and keep the tracking number.  If you  cannot send it direct-  make sure you have the  full name and address of the Liaison person and send it to her- or  deliver it directly to her  and request she sign a document she has received it. I would ask for a copy of her Thai ID Card.

 

As part of my letter- I would also indicate a response time limit-15 days and a statement indicating that if you have not heard from the landlord in 15 days , you will assume the matter is closed.

 

If , by chance, you do hear from the landlord directly and meet- then you can produce your documentation- 5 signed receipts- showing the rent paid. You may want to suggest  the landlord file charges against your  house guest and  or the liaison. As part of the negotiation- I would show the photos of the damaged furniture and  the repeated requests yew made to fix the property.  I would also have  a written value on the furniture and indicate you want to be reimbursed for the current value.

 

An alternative to the above would be after the letter is sent and the time limit expires- you could then contact the police and ask for assistance in locating the  landlord and have the police set up the meeting to settle everything.

 

I wish you the best

Thank you Thaidream

 

Very thought out and helpful suggestions

 

Lots of useful comments and suggestions are coming and hard for me to digest and process everything at once.

 

I have given almost a similar letter about moving out to the middleman and have plans of going to police as well if not contacted by the owner.

 

Will wait more than 15 days.

 

Would like to write to you again about your suggestions in due course

5 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Coupe of questions to clarify

You state the landlord and liaison (landlords agent ?) speak limited English. How have they communicated the rent arrears.

 

What does the contract state with regards missing payments.

 

How has your former friend admitted not paying, and if so , how did she manage to obtain receipts to forge.

 

Have you seen the original contract , held by landlord or liaison , to determine if any alterations correspond with your copy.

 

Generally the best way to resolve matters such as these is to come to some arrangement with the landlord.

You have asked several questions and I try to answer the ones that I know the answer in the order that you have asked: 

 

During early March 2019 (last month) the middleman was at the house. He talked to the landlord on phone and wrote the figures that I owe on a sheet of paper (that I have kept with date). Five months rent minus 4000. That was the first time ever. 

 

About two months earlier than that the owner herself had come to the house, apparently unhappy, told me that five months "Discount" "Discount" "Discount". The only impression that I got was that she was unhappy about giving a discount (percentage?) to my lady friend. 

 

I told her if you gave a discount to Khun ... ? she did not pass that on to me. Later on on another day I wrote that info on a sheet of paper and gave to middleman. He takes photo of such things normally and sends to owner on his mobile.

 

I thinks the contract says that if I don't pay the rent on the first day of the month the owner will luck up the house. Apparently 17 months have passed and she has not tried to luck up the house.

 

My lady friend also owed me money and had voluntarily given to me an undertaking letter (in Thai and English as well) about it with a schedule to pay back. I showed the Thai copy to the middleman for giving him a clue about not trusting my girl friend. He wanted to help me and immediately called my lady friend and gave the phone to me. That is when she told me that she hasn't paid the rent to the owner.

 

As I have come to know that she is very skilled liar I don't believe that to be true. I think she has paid those amounts to the middleman or owner, but kept a commission (which perhaps may the one that the owner is calling "Discount").

 

Your next question is extremely important and I love to know the answer too. Which are the alterations on the copy of the contract that the landlord holds ? And my question as well : How can I have a glance of that copy or even better take a photocopy?

 

 

2 hours ago, robblok said:

If this is real then you will have to pay. You have no proof and there is suspicion your lady friend pocketed the money. Legally your toast, the only thing in your favor is that the landlord did not inform you you were not paying. But it could be that he had informed your lady friend who did not mention it to you. Now the lady friend is gone and he can only contact you and makes the problem known to you.

 

Basically if I was the landlord id go after you too.. I did not get the money. You have no proof of paying a judge would see it my way. 

Thanks for letting me know. 

 

At this stage the options available to me are the most important info that I like to know as well

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

OP: You haven't paid the rent... Its that simple. 

 

You may have given money equivalent to the price of the rent to someone who was supposed to use that money to pay the rent, but its clear they didn't do it - Your 'lady friend' ripped you off. 

 

If you don't have receipt of payment, you haven't paid the rent. 

 

That said, on the surface it would appear that there has been some collusion between the Apartment owner / manager and your 'lady friend' - especially regarding the additional signature on the contract.

 

It could be that 'something' was negotiated for your contract extensions, i.e. your 'lady friend' took commission for the contract extensions...  and since she has now left the landlord has decided she wants the money.... (just a guess of course).

 

Regardless, without a receipt or proof of payment you are unable to prove your rent has been paid and the onus is on you to be able to provide this proof. 

 

 

I had a similar case on my property in Bangkok. Rented out to two Bangkok University Students (1 Thai, 1 Korean)... The electricity was subtracted via Direct Debit from my account and I billed them.

The students were always late with their rent... (2 weeks or more each month) and never paid the electricity part of the bill - I was fairly flexible and allowed them to cover it the following month (knowing I had 2 months B70,000 deposit).. it was never covered and after a while (10 months) I became a little more demanding. 

One student (thai) had moved out after a fall out with her Korean friend, the Korean girl's father then became involved about the electricity bills I was charging for. He said that his daughter paid the bill directly at Maxvalue (where electricity bills can be paid). However, he had no receipts or proof. I had proof of Direct Debit payment 

It turns out that the Thai Girl had taken the money for the electricity bills and just pocketed it...  She got away with it too because she moved out before she got caught... But she lost her half of the deposit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the long comments and specific one about the addition of my lady friend's name as my agent (without my consent or awareness) on the signature page. 

 

All such comments are really welcome and I will go through them again in future as well.

25 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

OP , cases of this nature are decided on the premise of preponderance .   Which party has the more convincing evidence .

What evidence does the landlord have that the rent was not paid.

 

I have provided them with the copies of the receipts that my former lady friend had given to me, I now believing that the signature of the middleman (still trusted by the landlord) is forged on them.

 

My former lady friend seems to have admitted that she has not passed on the rent to the middleman and during last month has paid a small amount only (4000 Bahts) into the middleman's (or landlord's?) account.

 

I strongly believe that it is impossible that the landlord had not been receiving the rent, though perhaps not in full

 

You seem to be a well informed person. Please have a glance on the background information that I have supplied and throw additional lights on this case and options that I may have ? Thanks

1 hour ago, justin case said:

let me be the first to advise: run quickly to your home country

 

good, right ?

 

For all of you that give me such an advice or similar ones I say thank you. I am sure that you say it with good intentions.

 

However if I take such an advice I must always be looking behind me that someone is trying to get me (I like Thailand and don't like to run away). Bear in mind that I will be renting another place, checking into hotels and doing a lots of other things using my name and passport. 

 

For those of you which say that I don't have a case or just a very slim chance I say that in another country, say Australia or UK or US this case will possibly be regarded as Fraud or Connivance which are illegal. I such countries I may have even more than 90% chance. The landlord may also be liable. In Thailand I agree that the situation is different, but by how much I don't know?

 

In the background information that I have provided I have listed eight reasons for believing that this is a connivance case. Which landlord in his or her right mind will wait for at least 16 months to demand unpaid rent from a tenant? In addition to the landlord in this case the middleman also had kept complete quiet for all that period, in spite of seeing me at least once, but sometimes twice every month.

 

Even Judge Judy may not dismiss this case at hand. The problem could have been stopped if I was informed about not receiving the rent the first month that it had happened. 

 

Please also advice me on how can I handle this case in the light of the background information that I have supplied ? 

 

I also don't underestimate the role that the police can play. What do you think about that role?

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, DaRoadrunner said:

Duh.... my brain hurts after reading this one. Some people are their own worst enemy. Always pay rent at a bank and keep the transaction receipt as proof. Always check the person you are paying is the real owner by asking to see the house registration.

 

Looks like you could report your lady friend to the police, though I doubt they would do anything, Thai police being what they are.

 

If the landlord will not speak with you direct, then they may also be in on this scam. The landlord may also be in breach of contract for failing to repair the roof. Amending a contract without your approval is also illegal.

 

You could run this story by a lawyer and see what he says. Half an hour advice costs little and you may learn something to your advantage.

 

Bottom line is.... It's a mess. I would be inclined to just move out and disappear.

 

 

Thank you DaRoadrunner. Your comments are very helpful.

 

My lady friend has given to me an undertaking letter in Thai about her debt to me (also in English). I plan to use that at the right time with the police. Now though my priority is the landlord. I have given her a written notice of moving out late last month. I plan to go to the police in about a month's time to follow that up. I read somewhere that the owners should be given 60 days notice.

 

I have taken 19 photos of the damages to my furniture that I had bought them brand new, due to rain leakage, the paints of the ceiling that have come off in very bad way in at least 7 places, very very old gas stove and TV, etc etc. Today I went to a shop and printed them out in 2 sets. The owner acts so crudely in respect to her responsibilities and I am sure that she is in breach of the contract and her responsibilities.

 

I don't plan to run away. I see no option for myself except handling this in the best way that I can

 

Thanks again

2 hours ago, birdi9 said:

Thanks for comments

No I gave them only the copies of the receipts. At this time I need to show my copy of the contract to a lawyer or someone similar to know where do I stand with this contract ? I read on internet that a law company near Makro has advertised free initial consultation and no fee if no win situation. This looks to good to be true. Any suggestion is appreciated.

2 hours ago, madmen said:

The joys of renting in Thailand !! so you paid your girlfriend to give to a middle man who paid the Landlord?  Its no wonder it went missing . Lesson learned , pay landlord direct or via Bank. Your lady friend has scammed you along with the middle man

And the landlord as well? I learnt my lessons when my lady friend moved out. Have been getting solid receipts from the middleman since

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The OP will be tangled up in a legal system that will always favour the Thai landlord if he decides to fight it. The landlord will just say  he has not received any money, nor has he issued any receipts. The tenant's receipts are worthless.

Just leave, and preferably move to another city. The landlord can't chase you for money if he can't find you.

Thanks for recommendation. Those kinds of options don't come to my mind

1 hour ago, scottiejohn said:

Have you paid for the buffalo and her mum's land yet?

Such problems were minimal in my case. All scams were revealed to me on the day that I asked her to leave and the day prior to that. She had planned everything so well.

1 hour ago, steven100 said:

OP .....  did you ever watch mission impossible  !

Long long time ago

1 hour ago, steven100 said:

The truth is that your ' lady friend ' completely and deliberately lied to you to seek financial gain.

Seriously,  who knows what's been altered  ??????

 

I believe the best course of action is gather all your receipts, contract copies and any other doc's related to the rental and/or payment.  ( I just read where you handed them over to liaison )

Do you have copies /

 

Anyway,   Cost of getting a Lawyer vs missing rent ......    A lawyer may cost 100,000 baht,  is it worth it ???

 

Next move :  I suggest you get the hell outta there and dissappear quitely into the night. Go home, go to a hotel, go anywhere but there.

 

It all sounds to complicated for most to evaluate or offer a solution ..... 

 

 

Thanks for comments

1 hour ago, Vacuum said:

So your "friend" kept the rental money for herself, instead of handing over the money to the house owner?

I didn't say she kept the rental money. That is a possibility though. 

What if the landlord decides to take this matter to court as I am not prepared to pay the five months’ rent that I have paid also for a second time? What courses of actions are in front of me? What should I expect to happen? Do I have a valid contract considering the info that I have provided in the last two or three paragraphs? Can landlord’s copy be valid?

 

I am a tenant in Hua Hin and recently my landlord which lives in another city in Thailand has informed me through her liaison person that I haven't paid the rent for five months dating back to 17 months ago and its four succeeding months. I had paid those rents to my Thai lady friend that lived in my house during those months for handing over to landlord's liaison person in Hua Hin. Prior and after to those five months I have been paying the rent personally to this liaison person. The landlord and the liaison have no knowledge of English, no more than two or three words.

 

She brought back receipts, looked signed by the liaison, but now I think the signature on them is forged by my former lady friend. Both the landlord and her liaison in Hua Hin have kept me completely uninformed about the possible non-payment of the rent until four weeks ago. The house is very old and the rent for it is way over its current rental value. I believe the stronger possibility is that the landlord has received the rent, but not in full and has been paying a commission to my former lady friend, but not quite sure of the truth.

 

My former lady friend moved out one year ago as asked by me after she confessed to telling me lies on many matters, most of them having financial implications against me, stealing would perhaps be a better word. I am well into my pension age and had no clue to this lady betraying me as she had lived with me for over three years.

 

I am certain that there has been a deal or connivance between my former lady friend and the landlord for a long time, extending even up until 4 weeks ago.

 

The liaison person seems to have done and been listening to the landlord and also influenced by my lady friend.

 

Also, only very recently after showing the rental contracts to a Thai friend I realized that my former lady friend’s name is added in the signature section of the contract on top of my signature and name as my agent. Needless to say, that she hasn’t been my agent, has had no authorization from me and has added her name there in Thai most probably after I had signed the contract. This has happened in three contracts, including the most recent one. She lived in my house and had access to my papers.

 

The actual monthly rent as per the most recent contract altered in my lady friend’s hand writing had been reduced, but I have been paying the full rent.

 

MY REASONS FOR BELIEVING THAT THERE HAS BEEN A “DEAL” OR “CONNIVANCE” BETWEEN THE LANDLORD AND MY FORMER LADY FRIEND
 

1.     Keeping me deliberately uninformed for 16 months or more by the landlord on not receiving the rent for five months starting from November 2017 and ending in March 2018 (If she has truly not received the rent for the five months that she is claiming).

 

2.      Needless to say, that if the landlord had informed me immediately that she hasn’t received the rent for November of 2017 or earlier than that (whichever month she has in mind) I would have stopped paying the rent to my lady friend for payment to the liaison person immediately. And the problem could be stopped in November of 2017.

 

3.     Worthwhile to know is that during 5 years of staying at this house I have always paid the rent in advance. The landlord or the liaison person should not have waited for 16 months or more to tell me that the rent is due.

 

4.      After my lady friend left my house over a year ago, I have always paid 12500 Bahts per month and was not aware that the rent is corrected to 10000 Bahts per month in my copy of the contract. This could be one reason for hiding the possible non-payment of rent from me due to a private arrangement between them.

 

5.     Also, the liaison person had not informed me that he hasn’t been receiving the rent in spite of meeting me several times during the entire periods, at least once every month and in some months twice.

 

6.     The security deposit that I had paid prior to signing of the first contract (5000 Bahts) has not been mentioned in the latest contract that my former lady friend had facilitated signing with the landlord

 

7.     My copy of the contract is not dated and there are other changes and omissions in the contract in favour of the landlord, only initialed by the first name of the liaison person (perhaps forged) and not me.

 

8.     From the copy of the final contract, there are indications that my lady friend had negotiated the rent down. However, after she left my house, I have been paying the full amount to the liaison person.

 

It can also be seen by latest contract which is modified in my lady friend’s hand writing. This is another reason that I believe something important about the amount of rent has been and still is being hidden from me, ON THIS DATE.

 

***

 

During late February 2019 I gave a verbal notice to the liaison person about my decision to move out of the house.

 

During late March 2019 I handed over a written “Notice to Move Out” to the liaison person for delivery to the landlord. This was due to inaction of the landlord to arrange the repair of the roof. As a result of which substantial damage to my personal effects in storage room of the house due to rain leakage and general absence of interest in essential necessary repairs.

 

We went to reception desk of a nearby hotel for translation purpose and I also requested a meeting with the landlord to come to the house along with someone that can understand English to discuss and work out a date for moving out.

 

No response yet and I think it may not be forthcoming soon as the landlord simply ignores my requests. I suspect that it may be possibly due to a clause in her copy of the contract arranged by my former lady friend which could be different than mine. Please bear in mind that I trusted my former lady friend up until one day prior to asking her to leave the house.

 

About three weeks ago I handed over two files of the relevant rent receipts to the liaison person, one for his knowledge and the other for handing over to the landlord. If they haven’t received the rent for those five months, they will see for themselves that the signature of the liaison person is forged on five receipts. The liaison person was not surprised at all by seeing those receipts.

 

I am not sure that my copy of the final contract looks like the one in the possession of the landlord as there are many alterations on my copy in my lady friend’s hand writing. The previous contract had been altered to create the final contract. My copy is not dated. The period is two years in Thai, but one year in English, both already expired, March 2019. The period is from month to month rather than from date to date. The altered period has been altered again to extend the contract for one more year, not initialed by me and only initialed by the liaison person’s first name (I think forged by my former lady friend).

 

A few months ago, I had shown this contract to the liaison person with the amount of rent reduced on it. He shook his head as if he is aware of it. But I had been paying the full rent as had been asked by my lady friend (and wasn’t sure of the true situation).

 

I am aware that my case is a complicated one, but would appreciate with thanks the comments/suggestions that may be forthcoming. Regards, birdi9.