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commons
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Posts posted by commons
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You won't see the army clearing the protesters anytime soon. Their previous attempt on April 10 was a failure for them and the reds finest hour. It gave them the attention they were craving and the opportunity to violently attack the army. Since that time we have clearly seen that this is not a peaceful movement. They sit behind barricades sharpening spears calling for blood from their stage. When they aren't busy trying to intimidate the PM or those who live and work in the neighborhood they intimidate their own to keep them in line. Without another violent clash with the government they will run out of steam eventually. They can no longer leave their main base in large numbers and they've dropped their signature red to hide their dwindling numbers. The PM seems willing to let them implode on their own. One the imminent crackdown they claimed was coming doesn't appear they will come up with another set of lies to tell their congregation. They will claim victory and that they've scared the PM, make more threats, and look more crazy.
(I said that they would make more threats, Nation TV has received a bomb threat this afternoon)
Red shirts violently attacking the army on the 10th April ?
Any footage ?
Seems instead that it was the army shooting live ammo at the reds
http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack
plenty of tweets, pics, vid available.
re your france24-source... i posted link of their back-pedaling way too often. here it is, once again:
http://www.france24.com/en/20100412-thaila...-protest-troops
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Some insight for you on how the 2007 constitution came to pass
The government distributed hundreds of thousands of copies of the 2007 constitution prior to the vote.
People voted.
The referendum passed with a majority vote and the constitution was put into effect.
Under martial law yes . Still 10 millions thais voted against it . Very courageous of them
i like your posts. for that reason, you might find inspiration here:
http://asiafoundation.org/in-asia/2007/09/...the-referendum/
excerpt:
"Thailand: Misperceptions of the Referendum
By James Klein
James Klein is The Asia Foundation’s Country Representative in Thailand.
On Sunday, August 19, 2007, Thailand’s Election Commission organized the Kingdom’s first referendum in history. Voters were given the opportunity to vote either “Yes” or “No” to adopt the newly drafted Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand, which would provide the ground rules for a new elected civilian government to replace the Interim Constitution of 2006 and the government installed by military leadership after the September 19, 2006 coup. Nationwide, 57.6% of eligible voters cast their ballots; the majority, 56.7%, voted yes. The military acknowledges that it had hoped for both a higher turnout for the referendum and approval rating for the draft charter; nevertheless, some reports of the referendum has been fraught with confusion and errors, leading to a growing level of misinformation being accepted as fact. Here are a few examples of frequent misstatements and clarifications."
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Again --- claims of massive increase in numbers of the reds are 100% NOT backed up with any evidence. Just the statements from people that support the red cause (return of Thaksin?)
The numbers aren't supported by pictures or even by the claims of the reds ... just by some reds on this forum.
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Who cares? Fact is there is a massive media censorship and manipulation going on. Do you care?
Lot of reports from the international media get quickly dismissed at this board. Many TVF members choose to believe only the things what fits their system of beliefs.
but that does not apply for you, chai mai?
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A disappointing but unsurprising response from the biggest stubborn mule PM the world has ever seen.
Nope, that would be the other guy, Thaksin.
The PM has Thai blood on his hands, looks like he is prepared for more. He is awaiting further instructions from the elite. The elite are strategizing the use
of their paid Yellow shirts. My guess to cause enough "News media" sentiment to send in a final assault. The Red Shirts got guts. I support them. They are asking for "Freedom of speach", freedom of press/TV, some social justice. The things the rest of us just take for granted.....this is not 1945 or 1955 or 1965, this is 2010 the Internet and the world is watching, and many are aware exactly who the unseen unheard quite players are. Want more read "The Economist" Dec 2008.
thanks for an excellent contribution. as you say, "Want more read "The Economist" Dec 2008", if you allow me to propose: just do that.
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{snipped for brevity}
I dont pretend to convince you , but the fact are exactly as i said .
Go in the street and ask the average red shirt if he or she has plan
to burn BKK or sack shopping malls .
you know, i know, many here on tv know.
so, wouldn't it be reasonable to _get rid_ of so-called "leaders" who incite violence?
wouldn't it be reasonable to develop some kind of policy-platform?
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The Rajaprarop from Petchburi to Indra hotel became one large parking lot.
But one thing is funny about the re-enforcements - if this is a peasant movement asking for more just wealth distribution, why are there many higher class cars among those that are coming protesting, like Mercedes Benz, BMW? You surely aren't a poor farmer if you can afford one of them...
Sorry for the long post. Now let me get my fireman's suit to prepare for all your flaming.
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So, you have some Mercedes cars and BM's parked by people joining .... can believe that, every mafia boss drives them and since this is the biggest gathering of criminals of all times, I'm not surprised they are there to see if they can make some money ... you must be a Thai and of course a red
I am not a Thai and I am not red. Said that I am surely not yellow either. I just reported the situation from this area as it looks like in the nights. As I went to the balcony to see a procession of the honk maniacs outside last night I spotted quite a high number of higher class sedans among the more typical pickups and motorbikes and thought I'd share that as it struck me as strange given what we were told that his rally was about.
This movement is a social revolt against an established order , basically a way for people to say that they are fed up with the establishment and want to be heard . I think K Anand said something similar . It cuts across social classes it would seem from what i hear . It is not a political movement per se , the reds have not voiced anything resembling a political platform . Just a way for people to say a change is needed , we have had enough and meanwhile lets party and kermess in the streets , much like May 68 in France . Of course some leaders with a personal agenda on their own , are taking advantage of it . I think repression by force would be a disaster for Thailand . Just a personal opinion however
imho, i think you put it very well. there's a lot of fluidity. & maybe theories from past aren't able to grasp ... a culture's spirit unleashed.
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A disappointing but unsurprising response from the biggest stubborn mule PM the world has ever seen.
It is kind of hard to negotiate with terrorists. Not a good precedent really.
My limited understanding of history says every terrorist organisation has had negotiations to settle disputes and the only effective results have been either negotiated or completely wiping out the terrorists. Some may advocate the latter but it's chances of success are nil. This dispute will eventually be solved by negotiations because that is the only way this dispute can be solved
thanks for saying it!
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{snipped for brevity}
this poster has absolutely no idea what he is talking about and is obviously living in his private fantasy world.
anyone who was at ratchprasong last night knows full well that what the poster says above about the MASSIVE crowd stretching all directions is the truth. and everybody should also know that the only reason the army hasnt swept away the reds is because their numbers are just too big.
at this rate if increasing participation, the reds will soon be in a position sweep away the goverment, not vice versa.
tss tss... we all suffer indulgence in our mind-inclinations, don't we.
1) may i ask you, even _if_ what you _claim_, " the reds will soon be in a position sweep away the goverment, not vice versa" would be a fitting description of events in "real real world" ->
2) -> would you've time to enlighten me of the benefits of this occurrence?
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{snipped for brevity}
a revolution is carried out by educated people,only sometimes, at the top; and very uneducated people, usually, at the bottom. the nazis had only one educated man in their leadership (goebbels) and the average brown shirt footsoldier was harldly educated. the khmer rouge peasants, or the bolshevik ones, were hardly educated.
a far better rule of thumb is that revolutions are led by charismatic people. and, by the way, if you dont know what charisma means, then just go to ratchaprasong and see how the assembled masses listen and cheer.
i'll not argue what you might call an analysis. but i like insight into your mind, revolution equals nazis & khmer rouge (& let's throw in the "bolsheviks" too 555).
i'm sorry, you're saying hate-speech @ ratchaprasong resembles "charisma"? thanks for another insight.
thank you!
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some people in this blog are in deep denial about the depth of feeling among the Red masses. and they are fooling themselves about the relative power of the government, which is in freefall.
we are not witnessing a protest any longer. its a revolution.
no. leave the poetry ok? it's an "unfriendly" "corporate takeover". world will watch & learn. that it's possible in 21st century, with intl laws & institutions - _that_ _one_ _man_, with a lot of money, ego & hatred can fuel legitimate grievances into destabilization of a sovereign nation state.
it's _not_ a "revolution". against whom? first it was "amart"/"amathaya", by now - as posts here state - it's against "middle class" too; in essence it's against _anyone_ who feels entitled to disagree.
it's _not_ a revolution: it's eruption of hatred & greed - while, same time, systems of governance are crumbling.
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So they are dropping the red shirts. We all know why, yes? So when the reds without red attack the Thai soldiers and the general public with lethal weapons, and they are filmed doing so, they can more conveniently deny responsibility.
Precisely. This is a very disturbing development.
Guerrilla warfare? Threatening to loot CentralWorld?
"When the first blood is spilled here, the entire country will be the scene of bloodshed"
"We are ready to handle the government measures. No matter what shirt we wear, our hearts are red"
These are terrorist threats being made by the red shirt leaders. Some people might object to the word terrorist, but I don't know what else to call it. Insurrection perhaps? Any other suggestions?
it is call revolution or civil war !!!! not terrorism .
uiiih, you're excited na ;-)
in _reality_, it does not matter that much what kind of poetry you attach to... a lot of suffering.
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cannot blame you fellas that you supports the Reds as your better half are form N/NE. anyhow, i can also tell you that not all people in that region are pro-reds. well at least none of my friends and definitely not my better half and in-laws.
what might be the reason behind?
perhaps because these non-reds supporters all studied in bangkok? now live and work in bangkok?
what i have observed is that they are all aware what thaksin had done as they have access to the news, internet, and integrated with the bangkok people.
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nonsense
capable to elaborate?
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A disappointing but unsurprising response from the biggest stubborn mule PM the world has ever seen.
You must be drunk, it is the brave and right thing to do. One can not give in to mob rule at any time more so when it is very small minority the comprises the mob. You need a few lessons in common sense.
I fail to see how you can dismiss a movement that will win the next election as a mob - even if that happens before or after the Democrats are disolved for corruption.
termad, so what's the point of insisiting on "house dissolution now"? what's the point of nattawut threatening, there'd be no democrats allowed in north/north east for campaigning? what's the policy proposals, btw? & who would be in charge, if i may be allowed to ask? so: big picture question: _WHAT IS ALL THIS ABOUT_?
the red shirt grievances? wealth divide? oh really?
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Up until today it looked as though there was a small ray of hope in this sorry mess. The army was saying there would be no forcible crackdown, the police were staying out of it,the reds were making concessions in their demands for dissolution and academics from the sidelines were urging the PM to seek a basis to start negotiations.
Then Abhisit rejected negotiations out of hand. Just at the moment when Thailand needed a statesman, Abhisit acted like a politician.
If there is an attempt to use force to clear the reds from the streets then the PM will be responsible for any deaths and injuries that result. The mood yesterday was for talks. It appears Abhisit does not wish to endthis impasse through peaceful means.
i'm sorry i've to disagree:
1) "red shirt" proposal, their "olive twig", ... tss tss:
1a) it came after silom grenade blasts. that was _bad_ pr. even if "red shirts" were not involved (personally, i doubt it) - it was just very bad pr. if you take into account "black clad mercenaries" during apr10th mayhem.
1b) it came after visit of some foreign envoys to "fortress of liberation". it _sounds_ "nice" on intl stage, doesn't it? we're offering "negotiations".
1c) it came after capture and confession of actor. there's a lot of spin, sure there is. in any case, that's another intelligence/pr-desaster.
1d) if you've access, read tweet-translations. leaders, obviously, had tremendous difficulties to "sell" "negotiations" to their very own created frenzied mob.
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in case you don't know, udd rejected further negotiations _last night_, even _before_ Abhisit appeared on tv. and obviously, they feel much more comfortable spinning narrative of hate.
now, let's be real, for a moment: besides all the hate-speech, the storming of gov house and ec-commitee, etc etc, "red shirt leaders" _have no option_ but to "bring down the house", burning. all of them will face charges and none of them has character of gandhi, mandela to accept jail.
since many _months_, i (as others) try to get a grip on "policy platform" of "red shirts" - there is none.
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Oh well, thank you to the Reds and Thaksin for destroying Thailand.
Abhisit will go down as the most educated Thai Prime Minister who (as often is the case with intelligent people) had no common sense whatsoever. He has already lost so why not just go for a good old British compromise where noone loses face. Where the buffalo smiley when you need it?
Abhist is a strong PM and a good one IMHO, seems honest and educated and with common sense too, he does not just take the easy way out which would truly be the wrong way out. What else could he do right now, surrender to the thugs and bully boys like a weakling when he really is not in the wrong either?? He has already agreed very fairly and sensibly to bring new elections forward a whole year and the late Autumn is surely soon enough. The world is still recovering from the biggest recession in decades so the last thing we need at this point in time is an election and a change of direction when the recover is actually going rather well, (same in England where a change in Government right now would be disastrous at this stage of the recovery) . Also an election here will be pointless if the losing side can still continue to accuse it of being rigged with vote buying and other corruptions yet again, so this has to be avoided at all costs. SO AS I HAVE SAID MANY TIMES HERE, AND THIS IS SO SO VERY IMPORTANT, WITHOUT THE U.N. OR ANOTHER INDEPENDENT EXTERNAL BODY MONITORING AND POLICING ANY NEW ELECTIONS HERE, IT WILL NOT SOLVE ANY PROBLEMS AS IT SIMPLY AGAIN WONT BE RECOGNISED BY THE LOSING SIDE AS AN HONEST FAIR ELECTION AND THESE CONFLICTS WILL JUST UNDERSTANDABLY RETURN WITH A VENGEANCE. This all needs time to set up too so the late Autumn is really the earliest and a good and intelligent choice for all sides. THerefore all the intelligent honourable Red supporters should now go home and prepare for getting honourable ordinary folk standing as capable candidates for proper elections in the late Autumn. Then let the army deal with clearing the streets of the terrorist low life bully boy leaders left behind (who are probably on the promise of a big pay out from chief terrorist Thaksin if he succeeds in his aim of getting his money back).
If I was a Thai and had a vote here, as a reasonably educated and intelligent non elitist person (as I think I am) I would vote for the Red side but only IF they stopped supporting Thaksin and his thug cronies and stood honest capable Thai folk as candidates. I am sure many honest and fair minded Thais would do the same and positively vote for them too. Supporters of Thaksin are either on the promise of some big payouts from him or have their heads up their backsides as they obviously cannot clearly see what is so obviously going on here. Yes clearly this is all currently just about Thaksin wanting his ill gotten money and power back and he is obviously happy to pay out a lot to his thugs to succeed irrespective of the harm it will do to ordinary decent Thai folk and Thailand previously known as LOS. This current conflict is about Thaksin's money actually not about the Thai people and their future prosperity, and this is why I and many many folk in both Thailand and the rest of the world see Thaksin as an absolutely awful and evil man. Anyone surely should easily just be able to open their eyes and minds and clearly see that he is just that, the evidence against him is just too complete and compelling to see it any other way. Jeez how much proof do these people want to see Thaksin is not worth spilling a single drop blood over or even bothering with any longer so lets all forget him and ignore the prat, he just needs capturing and bringing back here squealing and crying to serve his sentence plus any others he receives for doubtless and numerous even more serious crimes not yet put to trial!!!
Also the Red Shirts should want the time to rid themselves of the convicted and obviously greedy self centred despicable crook Thalsin and their bully boy self proclaimed leaders and get themselves a real ordinary This leader capable of becoming a PM and non corrupt too. Make the Red Shirts a decent political force rather than being so stupid as they are now supporting the man who has robbed their country of billions (but hey Thailand got some of it back). No way would Thailand be recognised in the world if an undoubted and fairly convicted crook and megalomaniac such as Thaksin became PM, talk about losing face the country would be an international laughing stock, it beggars belief. So the Reds need time to get rid of these crooks and bullies and decent folk will start supporting the Red Shirts as their political philosophy of power to the ordinary Thai people rather than the Elite ruling class is a good one, and one we fought in many western countries over the last century and for the better of the ordinary people who make up the vast majority of all countries. So you see I am totally anti Thaksin and any other crook but I am not against the Red's political doctrine of a peoples power party and not an elitist party (as indeed Thaksin is one of the biggest Elitists), I just want to see common sense prevail and no more violence or blockading of Bangkok or anywhere else. The Thai people should knuckle down to get the country on the road to recovery and new hopefully honest democratic elections later in the year as Abhist has honourably promised.
thanks for your time to share with us. i agree.
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If the lawful government moves forward in upholding the law and holding terrorists and lawless mobs accountable for their actions as well as showing they will no longer be tolerated ... then we will see an end to this kind of thing in Thailand from all sides. If he bows to the wish of terrorists and lawless mobs seizing parts of the country as was the case at the airport, then we can see the next unhappy group repeat this type of behavior as it will continue to be standard operating procedure in Thailand for change .... mob rule.
Just like they did when the yellow took siege of the airport
You can't have it both ways there my friend, the fact is that popular support for the red shirts grows in the countryside each and every day, and should Abhisit resort to the use of military force and instigate a blodbath then that popular support will transform into a popular movement and those slain at the hands of Abhisit will become heros of that movement 1) you say, "Just like they did when the yellow took siege of the airport
You can't have it both ways there my friend"i'd say you've your ethics f**d up, "my friend". if an action is bad, wrong, unlawful, etc - _you_ do _NOT_ claim this action as precedent: _you_ refrain from committing similar acts! if someone kills your mom, then you go out and kill another mom? that's the logic? if that's the logic the mafia-clan with most fire-power will rule, it's called anarchy. thanks you're advocating it.
2) you say, "the fact is that popular support for the red shirts grows in the countryside each and every day". well, we all suffer due to our limited perceptions, don't we?
if you've time you may repsond to this article: http://tannetwork.tv/tan/ViewData.aspx?DataID=1028179
"True Voice of Isan People
UPDATE : 23 April 2010
Two preconceived notions about people from the northeast region of Thailand have been challenged by a recent poll.
First, they are percieved to be major supporters of the Pheu Thai Party and its MPs which has former PM and convict on the run Thaksin Shinawatra as defacto leader. Second, they are viewed collectively as the majority of supporters of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD), or the red shirts. A survey by Khon Kaen university, however, suggests these notions are maybe nothing but assumptions.
Conducted by Khon Kaen university, the 'Isan poll' which was published on April 19 revealed 51.1 percent of the survey participants s support the call for House dissolution, as demanded by the DAAD, while the rest is against it. The gap in the number of Isan people who are in favor of the House dissolution ultimatum and the number of those who are against it is very narrow. The gap is said to be almost statistically insignificance. The result of this poll can be considered a true voice since it comes from Isan people who have spoken for themselves.
Reasons the survey respondents gave to either back up their approval or support their disapproval to DAAD demand are noteworthy. Reasons for those who are for House dissolution mostly stem from the feeling that the government has been ineffective in performing its duties and a belief that House dissolution will bring about peace. Some participants just simple disliked the the current administration, while some are confident a new round of fresh elections will restore peace to the Kingdom. A number of the Isan people who participated in the survey also believe the House dissolution will bring back 'true' democracy to the people.
On the other hand, those who are against the call for House dissolution said it will disrupt Thailand's economic recovery while some said before House could be disbanded the root cause of the current political impasse should be addressed first.
The keyword here is true democracy. Two former prime ministers; Somchai Wongsawat and Chavalit Yongchaiyudh insisted no real solution can be reached without true democracy. They said the political deadlock has stemmed from the absence of true democracy and justice.
However, they didn't make it explicit and explained what is un-democratic about the democracy we currently have. They also failed to elaborate on what sorts of injustice are the problem. More importantly, they have to ask themselves what or if have they
done anything while they were in power to restore 'true democracy' and address the 'injustice' they cried foul over?
It seems the definition of democracy, as implied by the speeches made on DAAD stages, revolve around bringing back the 1997 Constitution and reinstating former PM Thaksin into power.
According to the international standards, the current administration should be considered as a democratic government because Abhisit Vejjajiva is a member of Parliament who won more than half of the votes from his fellow MPs.
Moreover, the current Constitution guarantees the rights and freedom of the people. However, given the ineffectiveness in enforcing the law and the existence of extra-parliamentary influences, the Thai society is a democratic society, albeit not a fully developed one.
Democracy we have now is far from perfect but it is a far cry from the period when we had PM who was more of a soldier than a premier while MPs sat idle on their back benches . House dissolution will not rid the Thai society of extra-parliamentary influences. Strong civil sector will.
Thai Rath Editorial Page 3, April 22, 2010.
Rewritten by Pornchai Sereemongkonpol "
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3) you say, "Abhisit resort to the use of military force and instigate a blodbath then that popular support will transform into a popular movement and those slain at the hands of Abhisit will become heros of that movement "
i say, you're a typical frustrated farang male indulging "heroic" fantasies with lots of blood and heros and all that fancy mind-stuff.
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thank you
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{snipped for brevity}
I believe there was a popular movement against Ghandi in india in the 1950's and after. See V.S Naipul : India a wounded civilisation 1977. Ghandi believed that an uprising by a lesser power against a greater one was 'non-violent' as there would be no balance to the conflict. Times have changed and the 'lessons' of Ghandi are disproved and should not be applied to this conflict.
& this is your _first_ post here?
Apparently,.Does that negate an opinion?
nothing negates an opinion. you can't help to carry one around. it comes with being human. nothing to be proud of. it takes a lot of time and training to let go.
but your first post here... allows insight what else to expect.
would you please be so kind to elaborate on your statement, "Times have changed and the 'lessons' of Ghandi are _disproved_ and should not be applied to this conflict." while, a wild guess, i guess you're speaking on behalf of the "red shirt movement" dedicated to "non-violence"?
thank you.
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{snipped for brevity}
From what I could see in Bangkok and was told some cities in the South also, the northern products are being boycotted by some (likely multicolor shirt supporters).
This is indeed a very bad sign, as the weakest of all, the farmers that have their produce as their only source of income could suffer tremendously.
I don't think farmers themselves can AFFORD to close the tap. Their middlemen could.
But here's the thing - who these farmers should really take their anger out at are their middlemen, as with not more than a few days of educational course on economics could empower these people to keep a lot more for themselves.
Or maybe teach them how to balance what they produce, maybe spread out from one product to several, in case one thing doesn't sell well or is underpriced, they can patch up income by something else.
Have you ever heard that one about instead of giving a fish to a hungry man, teach him how to catch a fish?
Thaksin gave them a fish... well, maybe not the whole fish but anyway... Someone (and I am seriously willing to participate in this, even financially) should instead teach them how to catch a fish.
Typical post by a city dweller
Those farmers in the countryside have been living off the land for hundreds of generations just fine, long before paved roads, cars, TV's and cellphones, and they can very easily live without Bangkok, but should food shipments from the countryside be totaly cuttoff to Bangkok (either willingly by the growers or by rebels turning back trucks and boats) then the residents of Bangkok will find out within a matter of weeks just who holds the ultimate power in Thailand i'm sorry, sir. you got this wrong. with advent of thaksin, he shared something with "Those farmers in the countryside have been living off the land for hundreds of generations just fine". as at least one other poster pointedly stated: he shared GREED.
i don't know where you live; but where _i_ do live and where i travel the "way of live" of "hundreds of generations" being fine, content, and happy - has been devastated in less than one generation.
yes, people these days yearn for cars, tv's, cellphones and lots of more stuff. tv shows dreams, illusions, nightmares - that seem attractive for anybody who's not media-educated. and i do know, most farang, believe it's some birth-right to _want_ stuff, to _run a rat-race_ for possessions, and that's what makes for wealth or a happy live.
well, i disagree. btw, that kind of life-style is unsustainable. it's self-destructive for human species.
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having said that, you're one of those who gleefully indulge in some fantasy of hatred and division. let's read your posts about situation in usa, ok? i'm soory, that's just _your_ cultural baggage - and i'd say, it's not very helpful for current situation in thailand.
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finally, i'm sorry to disappoint you. this is 21st century. _power_ rests with those who manage information; money in 21st century is information: digits being calculated. if you propose this kind of hateful and divisive approach, rice-farmers should "cutoff food shipments to bangkok", imho, you only prove your ignorance:
1) "food shipments to bangkok" are _not_ managed by "rice-farmers". in what kind of reality you live?
2) it's _money_ that shapes reality. if there's no food-supply coming from north-east, market will adjust. that's all. north east simply will be out of market. if _that's_ what you obviously propose - i suggest _you'll_ be there when _that_ happens.
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{snipped for brevity}
The potential bloodlust lies in the hands of Abhisit, the reality of what is going on in Thailnad under the surface has been obvious to anyone who wanted to really take a good look at the situation for many years now
dear VegasVic, i'm a bit handicapped looking "at reality" "under the surface". if you've time, would you please supply some sources for "potential bloodlust" lying "in the hands of Abhisit", "obvious to anyone who wanted to really take a good luck at the situation for many years now." it seems, you're one of those who did the latter. so, please step forward, supply evidence and sources, and enlighten my ignorance.
thanks a lot in advance, na khrap.
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For goodness sake, enough with the "But-but the yellow shirts..."
It's a morally rotten stance, you don't justify the actions of one group by saying other group did it too.
Jesus Marimba, I would expect such a simple and basic tenet of morality to be pretty well understood by anyone by the age 10 or so.
Stop, think. You (generic you) claim that the reds are justified in breaking any laws, attacking people, etc, etc, because the PAD did the same? I presume you consider the PAD actions bad, or else you wouldn't show so much loathing for them. Then why on Earth wouldn't you condemn the same (and worse I must say in my opinion) actions by the red shirts.
It's a twisted, deranged, double-think, "this guys are bad, very very bad, because they derail the normal workings of a democratic society, which is bad, and threaten violence, bad as bad gets, and break laws which is also bad.... but this other guys that derail the normal workings of a democratic society, threaten violence and break laws, why!, can't see anything bad about it!"
If you think what the yellows did was wrong, you can't possible defend or praise the reds for doing the same thing. It may be surprising to some, but the morality of an action is not related to which individual performs the action, but by the nature of the action itself.
thanks for stating what should be obvious. i agree, some people have their ethics very much f**d up...
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"Abhisit has shut the door on all Thai people by rejecting our compromise," he said. "He will do anything to keep his position as prime minister."
He said they would stick to a policy of non-violence, but other Reds figures speaking on a stage at their massive encampment in the heart of Bangkok's retail district promised a "guerrilla war" against the government.
One leader also threatened to storm a giant shopping mall that lies within their rally base, which has paralysed the shopping hub for three weeks, saying that soldiers and police are hiding inside.
"We are ready to handle the government measures. No matter what shirt we wear, our hearts are red," said Jatuporn Prompan, warning that an offensive would trigger nationwide conflict.
"When the first blood is spilled here, the entire country will be the scene of bloodshed," he said.
Gandhi laid down by example the rules of engagement for non-voilent peaceful demonstrations; I don't think what you're hearing hear conforms to that. More evidence of the that red really is the Reds true color.
I believe there was a popular movement against Ghandi in india in the 1950's and after. See V.S Naipul : India a wounded civilisation 1977. Ghandi believed that an uprising by a lesser power against a greater one was 'non-violent' as there would be no balance to the conflict. Times have changed and the 'lessons' of Ghandi are disproved and should not be applied to this conflict.
& this is your _first_ post here?
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i'd propose you have a look at abhisit gov policy implementations - maybe it'd change your attitude, maybe not.
It wouldn't, because I am not anti-Abhisit as I have explained elsewhere:
The problem for Abhisit is that whatever he does he, like Thaksin, is only ever going to be part of the problem rather than the solution.
Abhisit is very probably a "good man" who at virtually any other time would probably have made a good prime minister, but he is simply not up to the demands of the present crisis - he is a Chuan rather than an Anand. Although he is probably not corrupt himself his government is made up of those who undoubtedly are, and he doesn't have the leadership, the respect or the authority to do anything about it and to move forward.
While he looks the part, particularly internationally, he is out of his depth and he will never be able to be anything more than a figurehead who is being manipulated by others for their personal agenda rather than for the good of the country.
Thaksin is very probably not a "good man", but he is still the one whose populist policies undeniably released the genie of "people power" in Thailand - whether you support the government or the opposition, most of their policies were originally his and they are virtually identical, as they have to be to win any quantity of votes. Thaksin's shadow, consequently, dominates Thai politics as no other has since Prem and as long as it does there can be no solution acceptable to all (or even most).
While there are undoubtedly those around who are far more unpleasant than he is, the best solution would be for Thaksin to be assassinated, preferably by "person or persons unknown" - he would become a martyr and his policies of health care, education reform and support for the farmers, the poor and the underprivileged would become government priorities, whatever party was in power, while his corruption and the telling question of "his" billions could be neatly side-stepped out of respect for the dead.
I see nothing particularly wrong with Abhisit, but it is impossible to separate him from the remainder of his government, as some have tried to do: he chose them, he is responsible for their holding office, and he could dismiss them if he wanted to. He hasn't, so all their actions are his responsibility - that's part of being PM.
Unfortunately I see no "Anand" figure in current Thai politics, so as I ended the post above ... in that case I think we are well and truly up Shit Creek, with the crew fighting over who has the paddle in a sinking boat.
thanks for your time to respond, John Leech.
i do like Abhist & Korn, let me call it "thailand 21stcentury, generation 1" - but you're right, very right (imho), to point at critical issues. systemic issues.
again, thanks for your time to share na.
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Well, the peace-loving reds have been ratted out by their celebrity member for distributing armaments, completely discredited and the leaders can now be convicted; more rats will emerge. Not like anyone didn't know this in the first place. I want to see Methee on television pointing his finger at the red leaders.
Show's over, no need to concede anything now, just get the hel_l out of here before we kick your arse.
First order of business once things get settled: firm up the charges against Taksin, have him declared a full-on criminal so he can't pull this kind of stuff again.
Get real. The man rolled over very fast which suggests that aside from being a fool he's a coward without the courage of his convictions. A turncoat like this hasn't snitched because he has seen the error of his ways, but because he wants to save himself. People under duress make for unreliable information sources. Has it it occurred to you that just this man may have been quick to join the Reds solely to further his sagging media career? Making heroic poses in front of as many cameras as possible. I doubt that the Red leadership had any use for this pretty boy, except for the media interest that he generated. Look at the other leaders. Veterans of the campaign and tough as nails. None of those guys would have rolled over that fast or cried in public. I can guarantee that the men in positions of leadership did not treat him as an equal or share details of their operations with him. There is something about a guy that doesn't get his hands dirty.
When Jane Fonda made the stupid mistake of posing on that AA gun during the Vietnam war, did that make her a leader of the VietCong? It just made her a foolish woman, that has had to live with that stupid lapse in judgement. In the same way, Mr. Delicate played rebel with the Reds. He was a PR opportunity when he was with the Reds and he's a PR opportunity for the government now that he's afraid he will be punished. This is why protest group and rebel leaders steer clear of the "Hollywood" celebrities. All talk, all posing and spinless cowards as soon as it gets hot. He will pay for his stupidity for the rest of his life. No one will ever trust him again. I sense a future career as a brothel manager in Boyztown Pattaya.
gk, i liked your posts. how comes you suddenly indulge character assassination?
i'm pretty sure neither you nor me would be that "actor" - as obviously we aren't, chai mai?
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i read your posts. i'll give you _exactly_ _one_ day of my attention, ok?
a) what does it matter if people of isaan never voted for this guy? you wanna tell me that "people of isaan" are now in charge of well-being of a whole country? btw, it's just today nattawhut _out-ruled_ that democrats would be allowed to do pr for a "general election"
-> so, in essence, you're saying: YOU talk for the "people of isaan" & everyone who disagrees with your self-grandeur has to be... "removed"?
btw, who's "elite" in your terms _today_? as latest posts show, even "middle class" is now perceived to be oppressing elite? that has to be re-educated... etc etc. oh really?c) oooh, you indulge violence as eta or ira? why not state publicly, we're freedom-fighters/terrorists. we want to overthrow this society by violent means. we just hate you. & we enjoy harming others.
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btw, i'd appreciate if you'd be able to train yourself to quote. thanks. it's kind of a convenience for follow-up. no, i'm not hinting at state of your rational faculties - your comments speak for themselves.
i'll give you 10 minutes of my attention, ok?
a) its called the right to vote and the population of Isaan at last count was 21086501 or 35% of Thailand's total population – go figure
and no I don’t talk for the "people of isaan" but 21 million have the right to be heard.
The top 20% own 69% of the country's assets while the bottom 20% own only 1%.-42% of bank savings money comes from only 70,000 bank accounts holding more than 10 million baht. They make up only 0.09% of all bank accounts in the country. In other words, less than 1% of the people own nearly half of the country's savings.
c) not my decision
1) you still don't know how to quote. how comes?
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2) initially, you said something quite different. as you cut quotes, here's what you said:
"The people of Isaan never voted for this guy.
We're not back to square one this will be much worse.......... Now Abhisit will ignite an ETA or IRA style environment
Very clever negotiating on belhalf of the elite
"i countered that, saying:
"a) what does it matter if people of isaan never voted for this guy? you wanna tell me that "people of isaan" are now in charge of well-being of a whole country? btw, it's just today nattawhut _out-ruled_ that democrats would be allowed to do pr for a "general election"
-> so, in essence, you're saying: YOU talk for the "people of isaan" & everyone who disagrees with your self-grandeur has to be... "removed"?"
& you reply,
"a) its called the right to vote and the population of Isaan at last count was 21086501 or 35% of Thailand's total population – go figure
and no I don’t talk for the "people of isaan" but 21 million have the right to be heard."
afaik, nobody on TV opposes elections. question _for you_ is, how comes you believe 35% of electorate are entitled to speak for a majority?
& i don't even want to get into reality details?
so you're saying 35% of a populace are a _majority_?
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2) no-one here, afaik, is opposed to an election. how comes you indulge this demand it has to happen now? how comes? what for? what would be benefits? i asked before, what are policy-proposals of red shirt leaders?
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3) forget to fool me about wealth inequality. else i'd have to ask you about the wealth of red-shirt leaders? not to mention thaksin? again, what are your proposals for a more equal distribution of a nation's wealth? tell me?
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4) you cut my posts, guy. i don't like that. it shows a specific attitude to public discourse. here we go again:
you said, "We're not back to square one this will be much worse.......... Now Abhisit will ignite an ETA or IRA style environment"
_now_ you say, "c) not my decision" - oh really?
tss tss - so it was _not_ _your_ mind, imagination, inclination to evoke eta & ira in contexts of contemporary thailand? next thing you'll tell me, you didn't even do it, right? next thing, you'll tell me, by evoking imagery of eta & ira you _were_ _NOT_ enticing violent means to overthrow established systems of governance? right?
You can't have it both ways there my friend, the fact is that popular support for the red shirts grows in the countryside each and every day, and should Abhisit resort to the use of military force and instigate a blodbath then that popular support will transform into a popular movement and those slain at the hands of Abhisit will become heros of that movement 
btw, who's "elite" in your terms _today_? as latest posts show, even "middle class" is now perceived to be oppressing elite? that has to be re-educated... etc etc. oh really?
Thai Protesters Brace For Crackdown As Compromise Rejected
in Thailand News
Posted
it's ok you don't know anything about internet censorship in europe. but, imho, it's not really ok to claim your ignorance being of value.