jjonz

I have now had my friend transferred from the abomination that is the terminal cancer ward of a Government hospital here in Thailand. And I am by no means squeamish.

The patients are give only morphine every day to relieve the pain, but nothing to relieve their various symptoms, in the case of cancer of the liver, itching of the skin and massive water retention are the two primary causes of incredible discomfort.

They are not able to sleep - even with the morphine - due to the constant noise of various breathing apparatus, coupled with on particularly horrible female orderly actually slapping some of them to get them to 'Go Shower'! at 2.30 in the morning?! Together with the awfulness of having to witness your co-patients in considerably distress, together with the distress of their constantly in attendance families - No privacy, No dignity, does not make for an environment of quality of life, let alone any chance of being able to make the best of what is left of one's health.

My friend is now much more comfortable, although extremely weak.

I asked the doctor regards transplantation (no harm in asking). He told me that donors were very hard to find here in Thailand (have no idea why - you should see the emergency admittance at the Wachira early every morning - brimming with moto casualties).

The doctor also confirmed my worst fears in that his white blood cells were too high and he would quite possibly either die during surgery, or if survived, live only a year or two after.

My concern is that he told me that he could probably to home on Monday, but when pressed, did say that further monitoring would be an option and that he could stay another two or three days if necessary. Bearing in mind this is a private hospital, they are by no means attempting to milk the patients, as has often been stated on this forum.

I can arrange for care for him at home should he need to be discharged - any info on home nursing here appreciated.

Given that the Bangkok Hospital, albeit a world apart from the Wachira, it still does not have an Oncology Department, the nearest being in Bangkok. My friend looks as though he could barely make it home, let alone Bangkok. Is there anything else available to treat/defeat the white blood cells amassing his body?

Again, to any Oncologists (or referrals out there), all advice warmly welcomed.

A Thai friend has been diagnosed as having cancer of the liver.

He is presently in the Wachira.

I called the Bangkok Hospital, which, although being fairly close by, said they screen for cancer and the patient/customer is then able to stay, but that they have no inhouse CANCER SPECIALIST?!

My question is, having stated they screen for cancer, if they have no cancer specialist, why are they admitted? Comfort? Although, having seen the Cancer Ward of the Wachira, this would most certainly hasten my friend's death. No dramatics, simply that the entire ward/s seem to consist of the farthest advanced treated with the most perfunctory care.

My friend has not yet reached anywhere near the stage the other poor people have, but I feel his staying a day longer there very possibly might hasten his end.

All and any recommedations warmly welcomed. ASAP Please.

This is getting rather urgent as I need to have my friend transferred asap.

I called the Bangkok Hospital here on Phuket to ask about their cancer services. The advertise screening, but no specialist.

Does anyone know of a Private Hospital here on Phuket who has a CANCER SPECIALIST, and a good one to boot. (PS - what's the mo of, after having screened a patient and found them to have cancer? - Where are they transferred?)

I went to the Wachira yesterday afternoon to visit my friend who had had two puncture holes in either side of his lower abdomen, to let the air out - rather like a sheep.

He was then being wheeled into a ward full of incredibly thin men, he was the largest of them there, which turned out to be the 'terminal cancer' ward.

I spoke with the young doctor re a biopsy and he confirmed what you'd said about the fact that the CT scan showed it to be certain. He also said, when pressed, that he would need to stay up to another week before he 'might be let home'.

My concern now is to make sure he is as comfortable as possible, and given the fact the young doctor also told me, after some prodding, that he was only administering pain killing drugs (morphine), and nothing to prolong life, added to the fact the ward is indescribably awful, I would like to have him moved.

He's a very lovely man and it's heartrending to see him amongst all these poor terminally ill people in the latter stages - a constant reminder of what is to come. And I don't know if any of you have ever visited a Government 'terminal' ward, but the overall impression is that they are in the main, treated perfunctorily to the point of brusqueness by some, (but we needn't digress here now).

The ward is packed full, noisy and in my view, would absolutely hasten the death of anyone having to stay there due to lack of funds. It really is simply a 'dumping ground' for the poor.

Can anyone suggest where on Phuket he might be able to be transferred for the few days the doctor says he must be monitered in a hospital environment to check there are no further complications please? Bangkok Hospital not too far away, feasible?

I'm not leaving him there to rot.

Just as an aside, re Sheryl's remarks regarding liver transplantation. I have researched this and all the sites (not all commercial) say it is for 'later stage' cancer, even some with cirrhosis, not necessarily early stage, which in my view would make sense as the liver is the most regenerative of all the organs of the body - even living donors are sought to donate half, which grows back to normal size after only 4 to 5 weeks. By the by, the Bangkok offers at 60 USD, but the Chulalongkorn Mission Hospital in conjunction with the Red Cross in Bangkok, is credited as being the best hospital for transplant surgery in Thailand.

And here's the rub! He still thinks, after my dragging the doctor (quite literally) to his bedside to explain exactly what was wrong with him, after which, he promptly left after a very short explanation, that all that needs to be done is a good flushing out!

But given that most Thais haven't a CLUE about the inner workings of their bodies, and all the trumpeting and hypocrisy by the various Thai government incarnates merely LECTURES but never ever explains about the outcome of drinking too much lao kao which in my view, should be outright banned along with Yabaa - you don't DIE from Yabaa. But it's the drink of the poor. Their one escape from the humdrum of day to day poverty. Ban the damned poison, just as they did with pocheen in Ireland! And really educate the Thais about the different properties of alcohol.

Even very uneducated Thais know that cancer of the liver is usually fatal. His believing that all he needs is a "good flushing out" likely has a lot more to do with his (understandably) not being ready to accept that he is dying than anything else. That is normal. How long the denial will last is an individual thing, some people come around pretty fast and some people never do but rather maintain the denial until literally their last breath.

You have done a good (and not easily accomplished!) thing in ensuring that the doctor actually told him what is wrong. From this point forward his understanding will be a matter of what he he is able to face. I find that this will flunctuate even in the same patient from moment to momenn; they may at times express understanding of their prognosis and talk about their forthcoming death or arrangements for their family etc and then just a few minutes later be back to talking about getting better. Learning that you are going to die, especially if the news is sudden and comes at a comparatively young age, is a major shock and the mind has its own ways of protecting the person from more shock than they can handle. It is best to neither confront nor assist the denial, just let it be, answer any direct questions he asks you honestly but don' volunteer information he doesn't give signs of being ready to hear.

Personally I'd let him eat anything at all he wants and can tolerate. It is not going to make much difference at this stage.

One important caveat: Everything I have said assumes that the diagnosis is certain. Has a liver biopsy been done to confirm?

It is not too likely they's get this diagnosis wrong but best to make certain as the management and prognosis are different if for example it is just cirrhosis.

He's really lucky to have such a caring friend at his side.

Thankyou Sheryl for all your advice. Yesterday, after much consultation and differing opinions between the staff, the doctor who'd delivered the bad news said he could start to eat kao thom (rice porridge). So at least he's being able to get some food inside him.

He told me last night that another doctor (I'd never seen) had said that surgery 'might be possible'?! The first doctor seemed pretty emphatic that it was not. And no, a liver biopsy has not been done. Only x-rays and a CT scan. He's becoming pretty sceptical about what any of them say, he says several call by per day, all with differing opinions. I'm not straw grasping, but the fact that the 'cancer' is so localised and hasn't been detected anywhere else, together with the fact that his symptoms are very much the same as any disease of the liver raises a red flag.

I'm wary of asking a government hospital to conduct a biopsy. They do the best they can given the limited resources and number of patients they have to deal with. But I definitely get the impression questions are unwelcome.

Do you have any advice as to whether a government hospital here would carry out a biopsy? Move him to a private one for it to be carried out properly? Again, advice warmly welcomed.

Thank you all for your replies so far. I have of course started doing some research re liver cancer and have found that liver cancer very common in Thailand and Khon Kaen is the liver cancer capital of the world. Why is this do you think? Lao kao?

What is this country's position on transplantations? I did ask the doctor at the Wachira and he merely brushed it off. Is this because it's too expensive? Or simply not feasible for advanced cancer of the liver?

I am also researching diet, which I believe plays the most important part in maintaining a healthy body. I stopped eating meat over thirty years ago, just fruit, vegetables and occasionally fish, and have never had a day in hospital.

I found something about turmeric (kamin as it's known here) and it's recently having been scientifically proven to not only ward off cancer of all kinds, but to reduce the tumors by way of helping reinforce health red blood cells.

Turmeric is everywhere here in the South, although my former teacher from Kanchanaburi said she didn't like Phuket food as there was too much turmeric in it. This I assume is because of the Muslim/Malay influencing cooking here. Would it be a good idea to at least have him prepared at least one food portion containing fresh turmeric per day? Green tea is also recommended, together with some brand from South America, but am wary of 'fads' in the form of particular brands.

I've also read acupuncture to be effective for cancer. Anyone have any experience of this? Many acupunturists here owing to Chinese influence.

I am trying to be realistic, but definitely see holistic medicine of all kinds to be a better alternative than the usual bag full of pills every day.

All recommendations and comments again, very welcome.

Sorry again to sound grim but from what you describe the simple reality is that it is too late for any type of curative treatment.

Acupuncture will have no effect on the cancer but may indeed be helpful for the pain and general comfort.

Tumeric has strong antioxidant properties and as such it has been postulated (but not proven) that its consumption might help reduce the incidence of cancer. There is no evidence at all to suggest it would cure an existing cancer.

I have seen many, many people with terminal cancer over the years resort to all manner of alternative/"holistic" treatments. Some of them lived a tad longer than might have been expected, but all of them died. Other than cost (which can be considerable, I have seen people wipe out their estates in search of miracle cures) no harm in these things though. IF your friend feels he wants to try them.

Which is the key point. I know you want to help him and he is lucky to have someone who cares as you do. But in order to help him you'll need to separate out your own feelings and need to believe that this isn't really happening from what he needs and how he is inclined to handle this.

He is dying from an incurable condition; that is the fact. People react differently in whether and how soon they can accept this. Some feel a need to grasp at straws and try anything that anyone claims will work, and unfortunately there is a huge industry that makes profit off that understandable urge. But nothing you have said indicates he is one of these and it may be more your need.

Don't push or suggest anything to him other than things that might make him more comfortable. Take your cue from him in terms of whether or not he wants to discuss his prognosis or ignore it. Don't offer him false hope or push him to try this that or the other. If he feels a need to do that he'll do it without any encouragement from you, there are just as many false cures being touted in Thailand as anywhere else.

One of the difficult decisions a person with a terminal illness has to deal with is at what point to stop fighting. This is made all the harder by the fact that Thai doctors seldom directly tell a patient the prognosis or involve them in the decision making process about, for example, whether the side effects etc of various life-prolonging measures (e.g. chemotherapy or radiation) are worth living a few weeks or months longer. So the patient is left to figure all this out for themselves. Pressure from friends and family to "fight" often make matters worse and often stem from their own inability to accept the prognosis.

Don't push anything on him unless it is directly related to his comfort. He has much less time left than you may realize. Just provide emotional support and do what you can to see that he is as comofortable as possible.

And here's the rub! He still thinks, after my dragging the doctor (quite literally) to his bedside to explain exactly what was wrong with him, after which, he promptly left after a very short explanation, that all that needs to be done is a good flushing out!

But given that most Thais haven't a CLUE about the inner workings of their bodies, and all the trumpeting and hypocrisy by the various Thai government incarnates merely LECTURES but never ever explains about the outcome of drinking too much lao kao which in my view, should be outright banned along with Yabaa - you don't DIE from Yabaa. But it's the drink of the poor. Their one escape from the humdrum of day to day poverty. Ban the damned poison, just as they did with pocheen in Ireland! And really educate the Thais about the different properties of alcohol.

Which leads me on to another rant re the latest government 'crackdown' on pirated software, completely ignoring the fact that ALL the bottles of Gilbeys Gin, Absolut Vodka, Jack Daniels, everything - are ALL COPIES out of Bangkok factories. Could it possibly be that it's because the Thais are not known for their development of software, but for sure, a LOT of big businesses belonging to BIG families here are into alcohol?

I am, and have always been, a pragmatist. I will do what I CAN for him, because from what I've seen so far in the hospital, he's going to need someone with some knowledge of the proper diet, just for starters. When I visited him today, they were deliberating whether he was yet ready to move from a purely liquid diet to a kao thom based one. It took them over five hours to decide amongst several differing doctors and nurses, and one doctor suggested he might try that godawful sweetened faux yogurt drink they sell everywhere in those tiny bottles, completely disregarding the fact that sugar is to be avoided at all costs at this stage.

I am not a straw grasper but I've lived here many years and seen even the most educated Thai doctor completely neglect to inform their Thai patients regards prognosis and most particularly, diet. Has anyone ever seen a dietician in a hospital here? Mandatory in the West because we are taught diet incredibly important. Albeit that seems to have gone by the wayside with the upsurge in diabetes. A former poster pointed out that his Thai wife was of the view that doctors here don't like to give bad news as Thais don't like receiving it. I believe it's about time to properly educate the Thais and not patronize them, prevention far far better than cure.

Thank you all for your replies so far. I have of course started doing some research re liver cancer and have found that liver cancer very common in Thailand and Khon Kaen is the liver cancer capital of the world. Why is this do you think? Lao kao?

What is this country's position on transplantations? I did ask the doctor at the Wachira and he merely brushed it off. Is this because it's too expensive? Or simply not feasible for advanced cancer of the liver?

I am also researching diet, which I believe plays the most important part in maintaining a healthy body. I stopped eating meat over thirty years ago, just fruit, vegetables and occasionally fish, and have never had a day in hospital.

I found something about turmeric (kamin as it's known here) and it's recently having been scientifically proven to not only ward off cancer of all kinds, but to reduce the tumors by way of helping reinforce health red blood cells.

Turmeric is everywhere here in the South, although my former teacher from Kanchanaburi said she didn't like Phuket food as there was too much turmeric in it. This I assume is because of the Muslim/Malay influencing cooking here. Would it be a good idea to at least have him prepared at least one food portion containing fresh turmeric per day? Green tea is also recommended, together with some brand from South America, but am wary of 'fads' in the form of particular brands.

I've also read acupuncture to be effective for cancer. Anyone have any experience of this? Many acupunturists here owing to Chinese influence.

I am trying to be realistic, but definitely see holistic medicine of all kinds to be a better alternative than the usual bag full of pills every day.

All recommendations and comments again, very welcome.

Well, first of all thank you for at last including the various emergency numbers to your 'stickys'.

Just one small point - if you try to ring any of those hospital numbers, you will most likely be met with a mere 'ring' or 'busy' tone whilst you or the person you are attempting to assist lies dieing.

Please list the EMERGENCY AMBULANCE NUMBERS also - I'll start shall I?

WACHIRA HOSPITAL

PHUKET TOWN - 1669

My neighbour - Thai male 54 years old - had recently been discharged from the Takuapa hospital in Phang Nga after several days testings, including blood and x-rays, to be told he had nothing wrong with him, except that he 'smoked too much'.?!

He told me he used to smoke around a pack of 20 a day and had then reverted (for financial reasons) to roll up tobacco of the Thai kind.

However, the reason he had admitted himself to Takuapa hospital was because he said he was feeling something was 'not quite right' and was feeling tired.

The Takuapa hospital had discharged him but four or five days when I found him collapsed in agony on the floor of his house. He called to me and told me he had a bad pain in his upper right hand side torso. I called an ambulance and he was rushed to the Wachira in Phuket.

Since then he has been on an IV drip and given an x-ray and CT scan. His legs have filled with water and his urine is dark coloured.

When I visited him this morning I was told, eventually, by the doctor there that he had 'advanced cancer and cirrhosis of the liver'. The cancer part was the most alarming - and confusing. He had no cancer anywhere else in his body and it is my understanding that cancer spreads from other parts of the body TO the liver.

I know for a fact that he hadn't drunk any alcohol since two months before Kao Pansah, the same as smoking four or five Thai rolling tobacco cigarettes a day. To wit, he'd been clean for around six months.

I am very alarmed by the fact that the doctor at Takuapa, with whom I spoke, simply laughed off his ailment, stating 'mai mii arai' and then sending him home. I am also confused re the lack of cancer in any other part of his body at all?

I want to help him. Any suggestions warmly welcomed.

Since the issues of land ownership aren't new and they've always been with us, I think you only should have 2 of your points here.

Clearly, the instability hasn't helped, but the world economic situation is far and away the biggest reason for a poor market in residential homes.

Have to disagree with you there old chap, the first sign of the housing market slowing down, especially in the tourist areas was due to the government clamping down on the company/ nominee issue.

Up until the time that this issue came to light many people did not even realise that buying a house and land through a company with nominee shareholders was in fact illegal and if they had known would probaly have never used that route.

Forgot about this particular element. Your quite right. The stupidity of clamping down on 'nominees' by the junta in response to Taksin's having already sold his own communications empire to Singapore via this route - read 'locking stable doors after the horse has bolted', was no doubt the beginning of the end.

I see you have a list of numbers for the various tourist police, but most posters on this forum aren't tourists. Where are the emergency numbers for the various hospitals, fire service? I yesterday had cause to call an ambulance for a Thai neighbour but had to go through the tourist police?!

Not too much to ask is it? And much more important than 'favourite restaurants' et al.

well it's the same thing I guess. Just wanted to know how long typically it takes for everything to go through (contract, signing, money in etc) and I know, I know, it will be different every case. Just looking for examples. thanks

There appears to be some confusion in this thread. Have you a buyer for your house? And are you asking how long it takes between said buyer putting down a deposit and then having the house transferred with the relevant documentation at the Land Department?

Or,

Are you asking how long it takes to sell a house, from your listing it with a real estate agent, to finding an actual buyer here?

I understand very well the 'Taksin Factor' and that this is yet another attempt to regain his impounded 'loot'.

I also understand (sigh) that this has nothing to do with 'helping the poor'.

Abysmal etiquette aside, at least we're getting somewhere.

If you'd like to open a topic regarding the grievances of the poor and best ways to assist, I could offer volumes (and have).

However, this topic is about Reds/Puea Thai/Thaksin commemorating constitution day, as was my thrice ignored OP which you quoted.

Regret I have little time for bait n debate. Your heart appears in the right place and I wish you and the real victims, the poor (NOT Mr Thaksin) better returns and better representation.

I have no idea to what 'abysmal etiquette' you refer, but seems vainglorious.

As to your second paragraph - I did state in my reply quoting your first post (if you'd care to scroll back, or bother) that I simply used your overall post as an example and to expound upon the fact that the rise of the 'redshirts' was not all about Taksin and that many posters use this assumption as a way of neglecting the underlying reasons why this particular movement came about. Do you understand?

As to your 'regretting you have little time for bait and debate', I find that remark self aggrandizing - 'Oh, have no time to engage in argument with you little people', in the extreme!

I look forward to your own Blog, to which I have no doubt people who bother to respond, will be roundly shot down with yet another of your myopic views of YOUR world, as you see it.

Quote: Do the core issues regards poverty, as mentioned in my post, not resonate with you at all?

Emphatically yes.

However, unfortunately the ongoing saga is *primarily* about Mr Thaksin's desire to return his loot (and himself) with a chance to double-up at any cost (to others) end of. If you feel this is really about 'helping the poor' well... (sigh).

Also, your original reply to my OP completely ignored the issues raised relevant to the Red/Puea Thai/Thaksin 'commemoration' of constitution day. I tend to write off those who quote a post whilst completely disregarding the content. Best to not quote and just run with the direction one desires in that case.

Still, your comments regarding my OP are most welcomed.

[uNQUOTE]

You still seem unable, or unwilling, to comprehend my post Bahtsold. Again. I understand very well the 'Taksin Factor' and that this is yet another attempt to regain his impounded 'loot'.

I also understand (sigh) that this has nothing to do with 'helping the poor'. I am far more aware of the political situation/social structure here in Thailand than that for which you give me credit. Your response smacks of outright condescension and an inabilility to grasp the grievances of the poorest of this country. How do you think the rise of the odious Taksin came about?!

I would have expected from you a better comprehension than that you seem to have exhibited thus far. (sigh).

It already happens. My Dad came here twice and stayed in 5 star hotels both times. He said what put him off was the hassle he got. Whilst sitting in the grounds of the hotel, by their pool, dad was constantly asked by hotel massage girls if he wanted a massage. Secondly, immediately upon leaving the hotel there is a 'pool' of taxi drivers outside. Dad was constantly asked and harassed about where he was going and did he need a taxi. It really put my dad off coming back here. He has stayed in nice hotels all over the world and said he just doesnt expect this kind of aggravation when he is trying to relax. I only post this story to highlight the differences between cultures and attitudes. My dad thinks it's wrong, the Thai management of the hotel presumably think it's ok. My dad hasnt been back.

With regard to comments about the Governor. Sad to say that i hear he has to retire next year due to his age - which is a real shame because on the face of it, he appears to be doing some good. Poll after exit poll, year after year, and the results clearly show what annoys tourists. Rip-offs, tuk tuks and jet skis. The governor of Phuket knows fine and well which side the bread is buttered on, and the cancer that is tuk-tuk rip offs needs cutting out. A poster mentioned tuk tuk prices in Bkk and Chiang Mai. In both those cities you will see Thai people in tuk-tuks. Frequently. It is rightfully seen as a mode of transport. Yet in Phuket, you rarely see Thai passengers in tuk-tuks. Here it appears to be seen as a quirky, 'cultural' mode of transport for tourists only. Like an elephant ride is.

It is doubtful that the tuk-tuk mafia; and it is a mafia, can be broken by the Governor in his last remaining year in office. There is just too much money involving too many people. The man would have a price put on his head.

My honest suggestions would be 3-fold. A phased out cutting down of the tuk-tuk fleet with appropriate compensation - in the same way fishing fleets were cut down in Europe to stop over-fishing. Have a set number of licences for all Phuket tuk-tuks and that then limit the numbers.

Secondly, put meters in them and let the Governors office set the tariff, (certainly in the UK taxi fares are set at local authority level - and i think they are in Bkk too?)

Thirdly, a small amount of education is needed. Lesson 1. How do you know when a 'farang' wants a taxi? A. because he is standing at the side of the road, looking at you, with his arm raised up a bit. or B. he is walking away from you, holding hands with his girlfriend and needs you to kerb-crawl along side him tooting your horn shouting tuk-tuk. or C. He has just got off his motorcycle and is stowing his helmet so clearly needs a tuk tuk for the last part of his journey.

Unfortunately, the Don of the Karon mafia has previously stated that 'there are not enough tuk tuks in Phuket' when they asked for the numbers to be increased, AND has said 'meters are not the answer'.

I'm not sure he has been asked about 'education' of drivers........

Has your Dad never visited India? Or Morrocco? Egypt? Any country in South America?

The difference is that in those countries the Police take seriously the harassment of their tourists. They understand that if a particular tourist is not enjoying their stay they will very likely not return, whereas here in Thailand, the Police are either in collusion with the miscreants, or, frankly, given the rabid and centuries old engendered nationalism, don't give a dam_n.

We foreigners are, after all, extremely wealthy. Our home city streets are paved, quite literally, with gold. We never have to work for our money, it's given to us by our various governments. Ask any Thai. They will confirm what I say.

I don't read posters until they have at least 50+ posts under their belt, and an avatar. Then I know they'll show a little "Staying power".

Do you think any of us actually care dear boy? Do stay on topic.

I understand that in Thai culture anything 'second hand' is deemed as being inferior and therefore of less value.

Whilst this applies in the West to many things, houses are not. This seems to be paradoxical in Thailand insofar as a plot of land will increase in value. My understanding is that this is because 'houses' per se, have never been considered much of an 'asset' in their being able to be rebuilt when either too many termites have also made it their home, or, a gust of wind blew it away. There are of course exceptions to this, classic houses such as Jim Thompson's, or the many historic sino portugese mansions, to name a few.

The political situation in Thailand, particularly since their latest coup and ensuing red/yellow bunfight has of course put off potential investors/homebuyers and then on top of all that, the financial meltdown engendered in the West (this time).

Added to all of this, the fact that foreigners aren't allowed to own land outright, or are subject to a miserly 30 year lease - not at all in keeping with the Westerner's idea of a more substantial/resilient home (read, concrete, tiles and possibly a pool), are another factor in the foreign element being wary of investing here, despite all the Western designed homes/villas aimed at the foreign market by Thais.

And so, which of all the aforegoing factors do members feel have been the larger contributory factor to the present parlous state of the housing market here in Thailand? Cultural differences regarding perceptions of a 'home'/unstable political situation/financial meltdown/non foreigner friendly laws pertaining to land and home ownership, or a combination of all three?

The red-shirt leaders are marking (marring?) constitution day after their counterparts (Puea Thai) and their de-facto leader (Mr Thaksin) rejected constitution reform (which THEY demanded in the first place...)

The sticking point was the current Govt's insistence on a public referendum, to which Mr Thaksin reportedly stated: 'the proposed charter changes do not affect the people'... (how democratic)

The 'main' proposed charter change was to do away with party dissolution for executive vote fraud which has snared the past incarnations of Mr Thaksin's various parties.

Meanwhile, the rally is taking place alongside the site celebrating HM the King's birthday, who simply wished for peace and unity and asked for people to put the country above *self* interest....

However, Jan 8th is the final possible date for the court decision on confiscation of Mr Thaksin's frozen 76 billion baht, hence the 'urgency'? (which apparently overrides all else, even a beloved, hopeful birthday wish)

Whilst having never been a fan of Taksin, I do believe wholeheartedly that the belief that the populace of any society where there is such a massive and disparate proportion of wealth between the few at the expense (no pun intended) of the poor can live in peace and unity, is, in the long term, impossible.

If they were to jettison Taksin, (yes, I know he's been bankrolling them, but, surely the core issues, poverty and the uncaring attitude encouraged by the sakdina system of this country - somewhat akin to the caste system in India) were addressed, they might gain more sympathy for their cause, and justly (pun intended) so.

I believe the cessation of knee jerk reactions from those who either support the Yellows or the Reds and some thought given to both movements' fundamental principles might be more helpful.

Eloquent/skin deep.

However, I am neither red nor yellow- search my posts condemning both via my colour-blindness and concern for my adopted land.

Knee jerk reaction? Thanks for your leading naive example at the complexities afoot.

Chok dee.

I was not referring to your post directly Bahtsold. I merely used it to exemplify what seems to be at the heart of many of the foreigners' posts here, a la GeorgeW's 'your either with us, or against us' attitude.

I find your posts extremely informative and your heart is obviously in the right place, however, I do believe a little circumspection and less personal sensitivity is called for. I do believe you are capable of taking a 'broader view' of the situation overall? Do the core issues regards poverty, as mentioned in my post, not resonate with you at all? They should, and perhaps you might use your intelligence and ingenuousness to address and enlighten us all?

In other words, your comment regarding one's being 'naive' calls to mind the words 'motes' and 'beams'.

agreed, jjonz's sentence structure just defeated a lonely Estonian

I apologise, English is not my first language, but pedantry regarding 'sentence structure' aside, I assume you have the wit to address the issues raised in my post? Or perhaps not?

This is all another 'tinkering' to boost the property market isn't it? If they're concerned with the mainly domestic market, ie Thais selling to Thais, well good luck and all well and good, but the Thais are hurting financially the same as everyone else in the world, except perhaps the Australians.

If their intention is to boost the decidedly moribund 'farang' market, a simple adjustment of the paltry 30 year lease to a more sustainable and globally equitable 90 year one, would all that would be needed, surely?

The red-shirt leaders are marking (marring?) constitution day after their counterparts (Puea Thai) and their de-facto leader (Mr Thaksin) rejected constitution reform (which THEY demanded in the first place...)

The sticking point was the current Govt's insistence on a public referendum, to which Mr Thaksin reportedly stated: 'the proposed charter changes do not affect the people'... (how democratic)

The 'main' proposed charter change was to do away with party dissolution for executive vote fraud which has snared the past incarnations of Mr Thaksin's various parties.

Meanwhile, the rally is taking place alongside the site celebrating HM the King's birthday, who simply wished for peace and unity and asked for people to put the country above *self* interest....

However, Jan 8th is the final possible date for the court decision on confiscation of Mr Thaksin's frozen 76 billion baht, hence the 'urgency'? (which apparently overrides all else, even a beloved, hopeful birthday wish)

Whilst having never been a fan of Taksin, I do believe wholeheartedly that the belief that the populace of any society where there is such a massive and disparate proportion of wealth between the few at the expense (no pun intended) of the poor can live in peace and unity, is, in the long term, impossible.

If they were to jettison Taksin, (yes, I know he's been bankrolling them, but, surely the core issues, poverty and the uncaring attitude encouraged by the sakdina system of this country - somewhat akin to the caste system in India) were addressed, they might gain more sympathy for their cause, and justly (pun intended) so.

I believe the cessation of knee jerk reactions from those who either support the Yellows or the Reds and some thought given to both movements' fundamental principles might be more helpful.

The Letter of Residence is implicit in one's having a non tourist visa. Or at least it was when I registered my last vehicle here in Phuket, together with opening a bank account.

One of the things I find irksome here is the fact that so many foreigners are willing to add fuel to the perception of Thai government officials that we are all as rich as Croesus and should pay, not as much as the Man in The Street Thai, but if we are encouraging corruption in Government Departments, then do not be deluded by the fact it is only we foreigners who are required to comply.

Another thing I find extremely irritating thing are the foreigners here continually complaining that things aren't like they are back home and then simply making life more difficult for the Thais.

A case in point, is that there were a number of Letters to The Editor in the local rag here on Phuket, over a number of months, continually bleating about the 'insanitary' restaurants along the Rawai seafront.

This seafront, for those who have never visited Phuket, is most definitely not a sunbathers paradise. But, they had their way and the local Thai restaurants were given notice to relocate to a far flung corner of the beach not being visible from the road, and therefore no passing trade.

The Rawai seafront in the meantime, has simply become a strip of concrete paving inhabited by irritating boat touts.

I've been told that this decision is to be, albeit belatedly, reversed.

I believe a little forethought before asking 'how much is the tea money' and the effect on the ordinary Thai worker would be appreciated by us all.

Yes, I've seen them in my local 'mom and pop' supermarket. They fly around the interior of my house also.

So much nicer than the antiseptic supermarkets in the West don't you think?

And before anyone starts with the 'bird 'flu' - well, what happened to that? Was it a simply a fashion do you think?

You know, I'm always amused by the incredulity of some of the posters on this forum.

The Royal Thai Police have been demanding at least 7 thousand Thai Baht per 'illegal worker' aka Burman/Mon for years.

When I asked my own builder here on Phuket why there were no workers on site on a particular day, he told me he was late in paying the sinbon - bribe - Royal Thai Police fee - and that there wouldn't be a problem, he'd simply have to go into town that afternoon and divi up. And that was five years ago.

Having said that, the fact that they are now reporting it is 1. A good thing, as a longstanding practice is at least being addressed, for how long, well, who can see here? or 2. They have to be seen to be doing something about this insidious double standard from whom the Royal Thai Police are the profiteers on the backs of the poor Burman/Mon via the Thai builder unwilling or unable to procure Thai workmen.

Hate to be cynical, but I'm going for 2.