FarAwayBen

Frank,

Great report. Am glad to hear you are comfortable with your family and are thinking of moving up country. It takes some getting used to, but it's worth it.

I'd love to see your Excel spreadsheet, no translating necessary. Can you send that to me on facebook? if not, i'll give you my email from my FB account. I have my own spreadsheet going now. We finally got some gestation period feed details, and the numbers are a bit higher than my neighbor's assurance of "not to bad", but my wife also has a lot of good ideas she's been throwing out to offset that, so we are optimistic. Of course, we are not relying soley on this, and recognize the high risk in this business venture, so we are trying to brainstorm our options, at least in this early phase. You never know how things will turn out.

Thanks for all the info. How often do you get to head up to the farm? Have you taken any Thai (or Khmer, if you can find it) language classes? If you lived in Sisaket, would you live in the village proper with the family all around, or would you find someplace off to the side? Do you ever miss the countryside, living in the city? I've only been to Pattaya once, about 2 years ago, to visit a brother-in-law.. all I can say is, my god what a lot of traffic. Not much worth mentioning in the way of a beach. But plenty of places to play pool or snooker.

Ben

Frank,

How do they track numbers (money, pigs, age, date of conception, etc)? is it decipherable for you? How is your Isaan/Thai? Do you communicate through your wife, or directly? Who is in charge at the farm?

What's your business in Pattaya?

Ben

Brabo,

I admire your ambition, as well as your ability to get your family to run your operation. How do you keep them "in line"? I'm guessing they are making a lot of buying and selling decisions in your absense.

Ben

Lovely.. i can hardly wait

I'll have to get the family up early in the morning for this google adventure.

Thanks, IA!

I'm actually as excited about this brilliant idea by brago as I've been since we first got interested in the pig game. I think we might have a niche here.. our edge, if you will, the thing that makes us "better". Brago, i may need to buy you a drink

No no Ben, the apparatus consists of a small bottle with a tube attached, no up to the elbows stuff. The tube is inserted and the sow will lock it in place. There are actually some good videos on YouTube and on some Thai websites to show you the process.

Brabo,

No harm intended. It was unfair of me to make assumptions on what I know little about.

Ben

555's aside. this actually sounds like a remarkably good idea.

when our sow was recently "studded" my witnessing of the process, surprised at 5:45am, with no coffee in me, goes into the books as surreal, if nothing else. Not to mention the farmers hand on the $%# guiding it, and my sow then responding by $#$@%% on his hand, and him showing no reaction. I have to admit, upon seeing this alone (remember, no coffee), wondering if studding was a reasonable way to go.

The CP guy, however, has no boars present for the process, and described something along the lines of "up to the elbow" when doing artificial insemination. I'm sure Brabo can elaborate, but I get the impression, from pictures, that Brabo's extended family is doing most of the dirty work. So, yes, hired hands... or some unlucky brother-in-law who happens to be doing nothing better with his day. But I can't count on that. The dirty work, I'm safe to say, is mine, and mine alone.

EDIT: (and as far as creating artificial insemination kits, i'm sure there is a better way than "hands on" action.. (an artificial sow, perhaps? (sawhorse)))

Revar,

Congrats! how about posting a youtube video next time? (c: actually, i wonder if someone has already done that

Brabo,

Might have a starting point here.. http://www.betagro.c...c_id=24&p_id=35

Where do you get your insemination kits?

Though it sounds like revar is talking about creating my own Semen kits. uh, and i thought studding was dirty business...

(by the way, good thinking, Brabo. I imagine keeping the kits in the refridgerator is a lot cheaper than keeping a dozen boars)

Frank,

Sounds like a good idea, getting into articifial insemination. We had the CP farmer describe the process to us and show us the kits he uses. However, if it's more expensive than the 400 baht housecall I'm not sure there would be a market for it. Farmers around here tend to cut corners and keep their expenses as low as possible.

Revar's experience with disease is certainly eye opening, and just goes to show that no matter what, there is always going to be a risk when raising livestock. Suffice it to say, however, we are well fenced in here and nobody comes in that is not under invitation..

Anyways, I'm just exploring what the local trends are. Like you said, market research. I had never thought of studding as poor business practice until you brought it up.

Ben

EDIT: I just reread and saw that you mentioned 150 baht for an insemination kit. Am I reading that right? If that is truly the case, then yes, I think I would be able to compete with the studders.

Brabo,

You should see the local studding operation. You'd be surprised. He runs two trucks exclusively for studding, with two boars per truck, at a time. He and his wife are out daily. Only farms with 10 or more sows, from what I've seen, keeps a boar or few around, and there is a great deal of small time farmers how just keep a sow or two, and then raise the piglets for weight and need that 400 baht housecall. It's very common.

I guess it goes without saying that average local farmers are a bit laid back, to a fault in some cases, but they kind of just go with the flow, and follow whatever works for them. The farmers here have something of a "make it work" mentality, and "mai pen rai" is a crucial part of that. Of course they do tend to cut a lot of corners on average, and don't seem to have the healthiest of environments for their pigs, primarily when it comes to poor drainage and lack of running water, and general sty upkeep (the bigger operations are better kept, in general). "When in Rome" seems to apply as far as the practicality of merging in with the local business community goes, but it can't hurt to take a few extra measures to ensure a healthier, and more pleasant pig environment.

IA, we actualy have a lot of piglet buyers that come in from other areas (including Sisaket). Obviously they are searching for lower prices, which is why the average local price was running at 1200 THB, apparently. But by no means is the operation limited to a small 10km radius. The main boar studder's trucks I've seen as far as 20kms away, and I'm sure he and his wife go much further than that. Traveling is certianly something I'm prepared for, in any case, so long as it offsets the costs of fuel and I can find a market for whatever it is I'm pursuing. All that said, the local market for selling for weight certainly exists, and would seem to be a stabilizing option to help balance things out, so long as you can offset the feed costs. The neighbors valid rational for selling weened piglets is that the feed costs for a gestating sow are considerably lower than they are for pigs that you are trying to fatten up to sell to the local butchers, but currently even they are making adjustments to their business strategy. Just following the money..

Ben

IA,

No worries about stones. One of the difficult things about communicating in a forum such as this one is that we have only the narrowest margin of perspective on someone else's reality and all we can do is try and plug in that perspective with our own experiences. Sure, I could write a book and post it here, clear everything up, but who would read it? Anyways, your challenges are valid points and worth thinking about.

Right now we are just trying to be flexible, and I guess I've made it clear by now that we are not established, nor do we consider ourselves to be, but I do believe in visualizing my objectives and treating them as though they were real, and then allowing action to manifest that reality. Brabo brings up good points which are factors in the decisions (but studding seems to have the potential to be rather lucrative. And somebody's got to do it, after all. There is a good market for it. Selling babies, we'd have to give it a try. It's worked for the neighbors, and they have a very poor reputation as pig farmers. )

I also have experienced how forgiving a sow can be. She was friendly at the start, but was not pleased at all about being transported (A lot of ear pulling, and I think that we did this during a very delicate stage, just 24 hours after studding, which was a mistake I won't repeat). But a handbrush put all that anxiety in the past. She loves the brush, to be sure. I find this animal, anyways, to be much more sensitive and full of character than any dogs I've had, and equally as forgiving. But I'm keeping it in perspective that she is not a pet, but the beginnings of earning a living, and if she does not pay for her feed and help with the electric and water bills, she's bacon.

But there sounds like a lot of merit to not getting a pregnant sow, but instead just picking 4 or so gilts out of her litter. I certainly want to have a "working" relationship with these animals and am not interested in suppressing rebellions.

Again, great info floating around here. Thanks all for participating and bearing with me as I get all this sorted out.

Ben

IA,

Thanks for inquiring.

Eventually, a pig-related income ranging from 20 to 40k a month. That is my objective. Anything that helps us get to that stage regarding pigs is up for consideration. Originally the plan was to sell weened piglets, and not raise for weight. 10 to 13 sows the initial goal. Currently we are rethinking that, and trying to be more flexible to other options. I had felt that a more long term goal was to grow a few boars from the litters and get into studding them out. Recently we are contemplating raising for weight. But the bottom line is that whatever helps us reach our income goals more effectively is teh direction we would like to go. Right now, with only a learning sow, we are in the information gathering stage, which is why it seems unfocused.

I understand the theory of feeding a gestating sow, but am interested in the specifics. Here is an example of where western teaching in this area doesn't seem to translate well into this situation. http://www.ncsu.edu/...eets/810s.htm

Usually I get too much detail, or too much generality, and very little of practical use, so I'm working on diseminating what I'm finding, merging it together into some sort of useful guide that we can work from and modify going forward. As always, part of that process is translating my findings into our specific situation and locality. Someone stated it well a few posts back. We can learn a lot studying and asking questions, but it seems that experience is best gained from just doing it ourselves. A big part of my current situation is determining where to balance what I am discovering on my own, vs what my wife is discovering, so in a major sense, what is happening right now is less about the pigs, and more about establishing our working relationship.

We have time. No need to rush things, and I feel a plan based on these early experiences will be of more value to us than a plan based on our ignorance.

Ben

revar,

I'm sure the locals hold you in awe.. I know I do. Very inspirational.

Ben

Jake, thanks for the advice. My wife informs me our local big time farmer not only offered to sell us a pregnant sow, but also said we could take our pick of which one. There were 4 or so to choose from, if I recall. We haven't had time to go back. Right now are proccupied with rice.

We are still deciding, however, if we should try to get some gilts from the litter, or get a mother. I'm inclined to get the gilts and gather some more experience just caring for the animals in preparation for our first litter in late Sept. I'm still confused about feeding amounts for a gestating sow at the various stages of pregnancy, for example. Raising for weight seems a lot more straight forward.

Ben

IA,

i like the sound of this setup. And I had to chuckle at your comment about being the BIG PIG.. I have to calm my sow down sometimes at feeding time when she jumps to the top rail. I yell in English, and no effect. If I yell "Oooack BAi Loie!" (Get out!) in Thai she jumps down without hesitation. The more I think about "raising a family" the more I like that idea, particularly with your experience with it thrown in.

Soon I intend to ask more about details of everyone's operations, but I want to go through the thread history first.

Thanks again,

Ben

Ben,

Brabos advice is well worth a look. I run a 4x4 batching system and have always used 4 siblings from the same litter as a batch. They do not quarrel and have eaten and slept together since birth. They live in a standard 3 by 5 metre pen together. Their cycles are usually within days and when you are ready to breed them a dose of hormones will bring them all into heat at the same time.

If you got four gilt weaners it would let you watch them develop. watch their first seasons and to spend time with them. Gain their trust and learn how to quieten them down with disturbed. Also important learn how to be the BIG PIG. So if they do have a dispute, they will stop when you yell.

Brabo, good advice. No for someone getting into breeding, excellent advice.

Frank,

Thank you for your posts. This means a lot to me. I think the biggest challenge we face isn't necessarily a lack of experience, but keeping up our morale and enthusiasm. As long as one believe he or she is capable, one is capable.

I have discussed your experiences with my wife and we are going over our options right now. I appreciate your contribution here. It's good to know I'm not alone in being a novice at this, but that it's still possible. It is Pigs 101 after all!

Ben

Brabo,

I am inspired. This sounds like a very good idea given our current situation, and I think we can modify easy enough to accommodate it (a half litter, at least). And it seems like not only would it be a great learning experience and create the bonding with the gilts you talk about, but it would be good for our enthusiasm as well, which is crucial if this is to succeed. I will run the idea by my wife.

Thank you for your input, and for following along.

Ben

Ben,

I was in your situation about a year ago. Bought 1 sow to start with. Afther I bought 3 more litters with 1 month inbetween. It was a great experience and boosted the enthousiasm of the family.

The first litter I bought, was a total mistake for breeding but good for fattening. I wanted these piglets so much, they were so cute. My father in law just said : "no good,not buy" and he smiled. I bought them anyway. A few months later turned out he was right. With this lesson I've learned that there is a big difference between fattening and breeding pigs. We sold them all at 100 kg and even made profit. The second litter we bought, I just smiled, observed and listened ( and paid offcourse). He was so proud that I trusted him. And again, he was right.

I found myself studying on the internet, every day for 2 up to 6 hours. I joined this forum and I am learning with every post from every poster !

Theoretic knowledge is just 1 part of the proces. Another part is experience. As far as I know, we both have a long way to go and a lot to learn. But we're enthousiast !!!

With this post, I would also like to thank the other posters for their patience with amateurs, like myself

Frank

Brabo,

I am inspired. This sounds like a very good idea given our current situation, and I think we can modify easy enough to accommodate it (a half litter, at least). And it seems like not only would it be a great learning experience and create the bonding with the gilts you talk about, but it would be good for our enthusiasm as well, which is crucial if this is to succeed. I will run the idea by my wife.

Thank you for your input, and for following along.

Ben

FarAwayBen,

Why don't you buy a litter and raise them. Your wife and yourself can enjoy seeing them grow. You can pick out the gilts for further breeding and sell the rest at slaughter-time. In the mean time you can experiment with the feed etc.

Another advance, in my humble opinion, is that you will know your gilts and they will know you, witch makes them easy to handel afther.

Maybe a combination of buying a litter, next month a gilt, ... would be good to.

I don't know where you live but maybe you can consider to buy your litter or gilts from one of the experianced posters of this forum : Isaanaussie, Revar, Pigeonjake,...

Anyway, Good luck and enjoy!!!

(sorry about my poor English)

revar,

Your bravery at such an undertaking is duly noted. Such a thing would never happen in the west. I am impressed. I have heard how one must be his own vet raising pigs in Thailand, but your undertaking right now wins them all. I'm sure you'll do well.

Ben

IA,

That's interesting to hear about 14k being a good price. We paid 7k for our sow, and were told that was too expensive, but I think that was based on people buying for slaughter, not for breeding. I can definitely see the risks in this game, overall though, which is why we wanted to have a "learning pig." But what you say is true. The potential for success is directly proportionate to the amount of risk, but it helps to minimize those risks through acquired experience if possible, and if one can afford to take it slow.

Love the info you provide on the farrowing pens, and am adding it to my planning document. The CP guy and our local large scale farmer both have elevated farrowing pens. The CP only had one of two occupied at the time, but the local farmer was full up. The neighbors don't do anything special (they have about 14 sows, plus several gilts and boars) and just have an oversize pen for the mother to nurse, and enough room for the piglets to move free. Their's isn't considered a quality operation, however. My brother-in-law's eldest brother slides Eucalyptus tree rails into an oversize pen (about 2x3 meters, I think) to box the sow in the middle, while the piglets can escape out either side. Rather clever, I thought, and might go this route just in the beginning. It has the flexibility, with this design, of giving the sow a chance to have some room to move around in, or to be restricted, depending on the conditions.

My current pen (under our grainhouse) I intend to transform into all nursery pens after I get our main pig dorm set up out back, but that effort won't begin until after harvest this fall, when I can get some help. At that stage I'd like to do something more along the lines of what you are talking about with elevation in my current pen in order to assure the healthiest conditions for our sows and piglets. I should have room for a minimum of 2, and potentially 4 nursery/farrowing pens at that stage in my current grainhouse setup. But they won't be 5 meters, although that would be possible if i limited it to two farrowing pens. (It would then be more like 2.5x4.5m per pen).

Still a lot of planning and figuring to do, but am happy to have gotten a start. So far I enjoy the responsibility and look forward to the possibilities.

Ben

ben,

I have 4 nursery pens each one and a half by five metres and I use these for farrowing then remove the sow and leave the piglets in there. The front metre of the pen is patitioned off so that the piglets just walk under the barrier which contains the sows feeder. The danger period for the piglets being crushed is really only the first two or three days until they learnthe signals to get out of the way. Full farrowing crate or not the is no guarantee that one will not get laid or stepped on. With my setup I put a thick covering of rice hulls in the creep area and when the piglets arrive place them in there to recover. They move out to suckle when they need. I do loose a few crushed ones. But I prefer not to restrict the sow in a cage. You could not the same thing in a corner if the sow pens are bigger. Simply remove the barrier to move either the piglets or the sow.

The platform farrowing crate/creeps are very popular and considering they are galvanised I do not believe they are bad value. The weak points in many are a cheap steel feeder rather than a stainless one and the latches are rubbish on some. Gets a bit expensive by the time you put plastic flooring in but they are very easy to clean being off the floor. May sure that any flooring panels under the sow are up to the task, piglet flooring is not. If she does go through it some serious damage can be inflicted.

If you do decide to make it then remember you will need a pipe bender as well.

The pregnant gilts or sows are also a good bet to start with. They probably wont be the best at the farm but shouldn't be bad given that they were breed at all. Most farms have a limited capacity for gestation and farrowing and try to keep it full. If one or two sows do not become pregnant then productivity is lost by having an empty crate. Answer they breed more than they can farrow and sell off the surplus. Consider the cost of AI or breeding and the risk of success and at 14K it is not a bad price.

IA,

Great advice there. Yea, the goal wasn't to buy 4 at once. We have one, and are 90 days away (a little less now) from a litter. The plan was to buy one each month leading up to that, and expand as we go, hence the goal of 4 pigs at the date of our first litter. I have room right now to house 4 sows comfortably and for a single farrowing pen (the specifics to restrict movement and prevent crushing yet to be constructed, but the CP farmer we know sells prewelded set ups for around 10k THB if I recall, but I might just have our cousin weld it together which might or might not be cheaper).

I'm glad you mentioned that most farmers won't sell a productive sow. The CP farmer and our local big pig farmer both offered to sell pregnant sows, but I think you are right that we should bring someone along to have a look first, just to be safe. But those CP sows seemed well, I'm just still a little bit in the dark about what getting one would imply other than spending more money. (he quoted a pregnant sow at 14k THB) I wanted to make our mistakes and do our learning first with lesser pigs before making that kind of an investment in a top quality breeding mother.

The pig we have now had been in heat twice before my wife's friend mated her the first time. 21 days later she mated her again, and we brought the pig home the next day. I was concerned that the trauma of the moving experience, as well as us figuring out how to feed and take care of her properly, might have had something to do with the second mating not taking place. But we mated her a 3rd time, choosing a different boar (I think the first to matings were Duracs, a red boar), and so far so good. Her estrus date came and went almost a week ago, and everything seems to be moving along steadily. We've fallen into something almost resembling a routine at this stage, which I think is good for the pig, and us.

Your post makes me think I should do a little bit more research before we get our 2nd Sow, even though most of my input seems to fall on deaf ears. My wife has stated she doesn't want a gilt, but a mother who has already had one litter, due to the fact that we had some anxiety about this pig's estrus date last week, primarily. If she wasn't pregnant, we were going to sell her (or fatten her up) and start fresh with breeding. I think my wife felt guilty about that due to her friend, not wanting her to lose face for selling a bad mother, which just emphases why you shouldn't do business with relatives. I will discuss the merits of getting a gilt with her and we'll see what's available, but i think it's going to come down to whoever we take along. We have a few family members who are knowledgeable enough to advise us.

Am taking careful note of your recommendations and will apply where I can. I am very grateful for all the help received so far. My whole perspective has developed a great deal this week.

Ben

Ben,

Dont get me wrong. Good luck with your plans. You mentioned buying 4 sows (have given birth) or do you mean gilts that are ready to breed, or perhaps CP or breeder farm gilts at between 60 and 100 kgs?

The reason for asking is most farmers will not sell a productive sow, so if you plan to buy them ask yourself why they are being sold, beware usually the duds.

Ready to go Gilts will have had at least two heat cycles and ideally be at 120 to 140 kgs (7 to 8 months old). These are expensive if they are any good, make sure that these arent rejects that did not hold after mating.

Finishing pigs are the usual place to start when selecting a gilt at around 60 to 70 kgs. Your need to check the number of teats and the pigs constitution. Take someone who knows what to look for.

Next buying 4 at once, why? If you have 4 females all in pig at once you will go through peaks and troughs of production at least 4 months between sales with a 4 month start up period. That is expensive and requires enough pens and farrowing facilities to hold the maximum numbers at each stage. That is growing pens for four litters, four finishers, as well as four nursery and farrowing areas and the gestation area for 4 sows. At least half of those pens will be empty.

Yes you can use fewer pens but then you dont have room to expand the sow herd.

In short, to start think about buying one gilt each month for 4 months. That will space them out and you will have a continuous supply of piglets with only a month between them or two months if one pregnancy fails.

revar,

sounds like a good plan. (both bits here, on flaky skin and feed) ...

The pig seems healthy. She is very robust. If she seems unwell physically I imagine that you are correct, and suspect my wife will be agreeable and respond accordingly. However, the pig is definitely going to get a bath today. My wife is very excited about that. I like your advice on secretly mixing in the ivermectin, though it seems that, like you said, the pig is probably ok. We've had this confirmed multiple times from various sources, and everyone was consistent in their advice, so she thinks it's prudent to go along with that, and I feel inclined to agree, given current conditions.

I will definitely put that feed plan into action as well. This pig we are keeping on mash, but I will use pellets for Sow #2, and compare notes. Should be getting started on that this week.

Ben

don't worry to much about not treating the skin condition as long as she does not get any health problems. And if she does, your wife will probably be more willing to try medicines and I would go to a big city with a large petshop (not a pigfood dealer) and have your wife talk to the vet. Alternativaly you could get somer ivermectin in powder form (90 bath) and secretly mix it in the feed.

On feed;

If you have different sows you might use different feeds for each of them. have one onbalance and another on the locally adviced homemade feed and see what happens. If the balance eating pig does better iight convince your wife, if the local feed one does better it might convince you.

Its what locals do here when trying Betagro for the first time. feed half their pigs as they are used to and half with betagro following my advices on feeding and healthissues. Afterwards they compare results including speed of growth, size, costs,meat quality and decide on their future feed.

Sent from my GT-S6102 using Thaivisa Connect App

IA,

That's why I'm here. We all have to start somewhere, right? I don't have a farm, but that is my goal, and has been for some time. My current objective is to have 4 sows by September. I see this current sow as something of a learning animal bought under not so ideal conditions as a favor to a friend, mostly just to familiarize ourselves with what's involved here, and that's exactly what's happening. Our goal is to learn what we're doing, make mistakes along the way, which is normal, and eventually get it right. I don't expect it to happen over night.

What I've read here has been very useful, so far, but has to be integrated into what my wife is learning on her own in a very subtle way. I'm doing the work (mostly building and cement work, to this stage) and she's handling anything that needs human interaction, including our needs for how to care and breed, so I have to be patient with her and demonstrate at least a little bit of trust.

Jake, that's kind of what I figured about the worms (maggots) and haven't been too worried about it until IA mentioned parasites. I have two young chickens who take great pleasure in sifting through the manure when I have it out to dry (currently in a cement mixing bucket, it's one of the things I need to work on as I expand).

Ben

Ben,

Mate I mean you no disrespect but you have a pet pig, not a pig farm. At the moment your costs are close to zero and mistakes cost particularly nothing. She is a gilt, yet to reach parity 1 and already a year old. These are village numbers for pigs. From what I remember of the conversation this is the third attempt at mating her, That means she was 10 months old before the first try. If you intend to buy more gilts and breed them, you are going to have to do way better than that if your goal is commercial.

IA,

Right now, just the one pig, but that doesn't accurately reflect a year of determination (albeit slowly, stand by). Tonight I haven't been able to convince my wife the skin issue is worms, as obvious as it might seem, based primarily on the points that (a. it probably isn't worms, told to her by several people, and b. we cant treat it while pregnant) Your words that Ivomectin is safe at this stage have no effect. She is a disciple, if you will, of everyone she has spoken to. I have little choice but to respect that or else give up on the pig game, so it would seem. Her enthusiasm for this, today, showed it's first signs of fragility. I hope that with time we (she) can become more confident, not only in this venture overall, but in my contributions (based on what you guys tell me, of course ).

My intention is to have 4 sows before this particular mother produces her first litter, which is the first week of September, according to plan.

I have seen no sign of an ID chart or photos anywhere we've been. The best thing I've found was at the CP "farm" in the city which had the dates of conception marked above the pen, and the pigs were properly tagged. I could ask tomorrow, however. But I'm not sure what you are talking about is normal practice around here. Or at least, not readily disclosed. (If anything, I've noted that folks here just do as they do and don't put much thought or planning into it.)

As for feeding volume, I can only go with what is recommended locally, at this stage, aside from your general recommendation of which feed to gat (Balance). That's 2 bowls of branmix per half bowl of feed mash. If we go the pellet route with new sows I shall inquire again. It sounds like an entirely different approach, price per 30k notwithstanding. (it does seem to even out, right, at 125 THB per 25kg sack of Branmix). I think I will stand firm on the pellet choice with any new sows, but will yield to the mash for the current pig. I'm guessing I might need a scale to weigh feed per sow? And then some if I choose to raise pigs for weight...

Should have a lot of family fun (5 year old son also) soaping up Sow (Sao) tomorrow. she sure does love the attention

Ben

Ben,

Relax and play the Thai game. Your sow needs to be wormed, no cultural issue, the pig has a cureable condition. There are many cheap preparations that can be mixed into the feed to fix this problem. Try asking her to find out which one everyone in the village uses. Everyone wins!

IA,

Sorry, I'd hoped not to let my interpersonal dealings enter in here.. or anywhere, for that matter, but revar did help quite a bit in that dept in his last post.

I'll try again on the worming issue. Today, it felt like the classic "who is right, the family or me" type scenario we dealt with 5 years ago. In this case, "the shop" (where she sells her baskets) told her that it wasn't worms. If it was worms, the pig would be emaciated, which she isn't. They said the same thing the neighbor told us. The pig just needed a good washing, using human shampoo, no less (Clinic Clear, really?). But more importantly, they told us to give the pig Ivermectin (which everyone claimed they didn't have anyways) was dangerous during gestation and would cause a lost litter... This sold my wife on, A. the pig didn't have worms, and B. we can't treat it right now anyways.

Well, I had to let it go. We ended up getting a "shampoo" at the shop that sold CHAROENPHAN feed. 150 baht later (3 packets?), we'll soap up the pig tomorrow. Let's just say I've (we've, I hope) learned a lesson about buying sows from friends and family, particularly if they are small time farmers.

But, we are going to go visit a couple local farms tomorrow, particularly the only real "professional" in our Amphur. We'll see what he has to say about mixing worming meds into the mash feed. I intend to bring an 8x11 close-up photo of the skin problem.

In the event we buy a sow from him, I will be sure to ask if this skin condition is something to be concerned about. I appreciate revar's latest post about local pig farmer entusiasm and pride. That restored my confidence in what my wife was being told, at least a bit (but not her perception of my LACK of confidence, which I think she takes personally). However, she still has zero confidence in what I am being told by you guys. To her, the internet is a very rare convenience, in the event of needing a phone number. Certainly not a place to go for valid information.

This will take time, and patience. We will get there.

I do enjoy this so far. Challenges are what makes life worth it.

Ben

PS.. I got a 30k bag of Balance 757 today. We agreed to get a bag of pellets next, and then do the math by comparison. Am keeping an Excel spreadsheet. (of course, we'll have to prove to my wife that the pig will actually EAT the pellets) Fun!

revar,

I'm real glad you shared this with me. Very good timing. We had a not so fun time in town today at all the different shops. All our main interests, for the most part, were rebutted, primarily the medicine for the parasites, and the calcium carbonate. I won't get into details, but my wife trusts these people absolutely, and does not trust anything I read on the internet. So I have to be a bit more subtle, I think, and pick my battles. But I will also keep in mind what you told me here. That restores my faith a little bit in some of the assistance we've been getting. Enthusiasm, in general, is the one thing we seem to find at every corner, when it comes to pig farming, but I have to be careful about making cultural generalizations around her. Sometimes I forget that she is "one of them." But most importantly, me countering what she was being told was sapping her enthusiasm for this, and that is something I cannot afford to lose. I just have to trust that our pig does "not" in fact have parasites and that a good bath is all she needs, and that she's getting enough calcium in her feed.

Anyways, good advice on how to work with/through the wife. I just came back to do a little more checking on feed, and have settled on the following as part of a compromise with my wife.. Balance 757 mash, which is good for both gestation and lactation (i actually read the Thai this time, there is no english on the packages and i was leary about trusting this particular bored shopkeeper. I think he was hired help, and not the owner")

Here were our available feed shops:

Balance, with very little else to offer (brand new shop)

Their 757 feed sells locally at 670 THB

Prograde

A shop with Top Feed and SPM (our regular general shop, they also buy sticky rice baskets from us)

Perfecc(t?), this was the feed we most recently purchased, around 15 kilos

and finally, the most popular local product, but also the most expensive at 740 THB

P. CHAROENPHAN 995 ..

We see these bags all over the place, and my wife was leaning towards using it, but is allowing me to make at least this one choice, and I'm going to go with Balance, for now. If we find Betagrow proper in the city I might consider that

Very confusing day... I have many gigabytes of Thai language materials I need to put to use (of course, it will only do me limited good as all the local discussions are in Isaan, but at least I'll be able to READ)

Going to go Sow shopping tomorrow.

On the advice of locals. Some will have other motives,especially if they try to sell you something.because of status,they will also often refuse to admit that there are better ways of doing things then the way they do it. But at the same time some of them may have been raising pigs for many years and have been very succesful. So some of them realy know their stuff. The trick is to find them. I only speak a little thai but when i started with pigs many of the local farmers were happy to help because they were proud of their pigs. I went to their sties with my wife and insisted that she translated everything so I could tell her to ask the right questions. She would not do that herself since a thai does not questionwhat someone of higher status tells her. she just agrees. bBut for her to say something like 'my farang husband does not understand, he sais wouldn't ... not be better?' is ok statuswise. At home I would check things with her and on the internet. even so I made a lot of mistakes and some of the local advice I ignored I should have followed.

key thing is to talk about things with yourwife. try some things her way and some your way. if one way doesn't work try another.

One advantage that we farangs have is a higher general education, a willingness to admit that we were wrong and status is not that important so we are allowed to ask stupid questions (like children). Use this and in time things willbe reversed with the locals coming to you for advice.

Sent from my GT-S6102 using Thaivisa Connect App

To be clear, and I'm sure revar knows this, That is a translation/sloppy editiing problem on the Betagrow website regarding green label titles for Sow feed.

http://www.betagrofeed.com/products/cat5_product_betagro.php?lang=en

Upon taking a closer look at the Thai (สุกรระยะอุ้มท้อง) I see that Betagrow 306 is in fact Gestation feed and not Lactation feed which is what they have written in English.

Sorry for not investigating this before posting about it earlier.

Ben,

I would be looking at parasites. Get some ivomectin and give her a jab. It controls both internal and external parasites. If you are concerned, yes it is fully synthetic but allowed under organic certification. The nice thing is the effect of the drug is passed to the piglets. Once every three months.

Diet is another factor and it cannot hurt to improve on things there.

IA, her feces, if not dried right away collects a great deal of small white worms which look like maggots. I had assumed they were fly larvae. Could these be coming out of her? Am researching ivomectin so I know how to ask for it. There's a vet we know about 2 villages over who may be able to assist in this. I'm not sure why she hasn't called him in yet.

So far I'm meeting some resistance from my wife with the advice you guys are giving that is contrary to what she is told, particularly when it comes to feed. I guess it's a strange concept for her to trust people she can't see, much less westerners. She also resisted the idea that a boar couldn't breed twice a day. I just now told her about the parasite likelihood and she said "oh, that comes from Pbaew (the girl who sold us the pig), not from us." That was it.. I think she's known it was a parasite for a long time but didn't tell me and probably didn't think to get any medicine or a vet because the pig farmer next door told her "not to worry about it". I'm getting the feeling more and more that I need to take the lead on this.

Ben