hansnoi

Some of the posters here need to calm down and really think through all that has occurred since the reds took over Bangkok in March. I concur that many TV members seem to have adopted pro-red agendas and it very may well be because they have been influenced by their Thai wives....many of whom sprang from Isaan roots and whose greater families also support the red cause. They do so because of how the reds built their base of support in Isaan and in the poorer districts of the north, creating a fabric of mistruths and slowly but inexorably beating them into an anti-government frenzy. My own spouse is not from Isaan and her northern family all consists of hard-working and moral people, but even she is beginning to see that the carefully orchestrated and putative peaceful political aims of the reds have been undermined by the other, decidedly sinister side of their strategy which believes in using broad but well-camouflaged provocative violence to create fear and sow worry amongst the Thai people...all with the grand goal of returning Thaksin and his thugs to power. In the latter regard, the reds are and will continue to do so; the extent of which nobody knows at this time. This impartial link below has been posted in another TV forum but is well worth listing again. It explains a lot and I encourage all TV readers to take a close look at it:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html

Now is not the time to continue sniping at each other on this forum. It is a time to understand what has happened to Thailand and what led us to these sad days of infamy, and to hope and pray that the huge sectarian chasm that has been created does not drop all of us into the abyss.

My compliments for this well written and intelligent post. One of the very few in a sea of propaganda type posts from yellow or red-bashers or 'kill them' shouters on this forum. I had read the article you referred to and it's really a pity many of the (flown in at the last moment) members of the internatonial media obviously didn't do so. As for this forum, many stupid and insulting posts are just irritating. However the real damage for the image of Thailand is done by the mainstream media in the West. I would qualify much of their reporting as 'bias by simplifying' and outright sensationalism. 'Turmoil and bloodshed in the land of smiles', 'the poor stand up against Bangkok elite' and 'Thai army kills pro-democracy demonstration'. I can't read or see it anymore without feeling ashamed for the cliches and superficiality of our beloved free press. And for sure my Thai famiiy don't fit in their easy picture of 'Thai reality'. They are from Issan and like others in their village fanatical yellow shirts and Thaksin haters. I can't and won't blame them or their red opponents for being manipulated. But for sure I blame the hasty and ill informed manipulators of public opinion in our rich free world.

(.....) I think the Reds have been smart in their smoozing of the press with the comfortable press centre , fawning staff and lots of photo op's. I think a lot of foreign journalists are lazy and fell for the Red seduction and found it easy to pop into the press centre , pick up the latest horror stories and feed it out as journalism from deep in the heart of Red territory. Early this morning there was a live feed from the Red press centre by an ABC (Oz) journalist ,speaking in hushed tones ,decked out in helmet and bullet proof vest , poor lighting or she could have been a sniper target etc, the only thing wrong was that people in normal clothes were going to and fro behind her. Am I right about the press, those in the business know for sure, but this is my view. (....)

As a former journalist and foreign correspondent for decades I totally agree with this party of the message from poster Mausman. A major part of the international press corps is lazy, duplicates what others have been writing/commenting and specially the tv reporters try to 'juice up' their stories and tv feeds to show their editors and audience back home how brave they are in extremely dangerous situations. I have a hard time explaining the Thai situation to my friends back home, because they read and hear from their newspapers and tv that this is a conflict between 'the Bangkok elite' and the 'rural poor' fighting for democracy. This kind of labelling provides the easy way out for foreign journalists, limited as they are in background knowledge and tv-time and newspaper space to explain a situation which is not easy to understand. Since journalists mostly are liberal people they tend to sympathize with the 'poor' against the establishment and in that sense the Red agitprop department had field days.

Amnesty Internatonal today encouraged the simplifiers of the international press. They now will mention the AI-statement in any story they bring from Thailand. The government is put in the role of human rights violator against a 'movement for democracy'. Who wants soldiers to use live ammo on unarmed pro democracy protesters who pose no threat? I do not! I regret every human life lost in this tragedy. But it is worthwile to read the AI-statement in full, especially the part which gives the 'background'. Notice how first is underlined that the Red Party is calling for 'greater democracy' and 'consistently' demanded dissolution of parliament and new elections. The peaceplan of Abhisit is mentioned shortly, followed by the line that the Reds initially accepted it and after that came with their own plan (the demand for Sutrep to report to the police!)

If you ask yourself why Amnesty is suddenly so concerned about human rights violations in Thailand follow this link (http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/09/05/amnestys-silence-on-lese-majeste/) or Google Zawacki, amnesty, new mandela. It will show you how one sided Amnesty is and that mr. Zawacki's statement is just a kind of 'damage control'.

Personally I don't take sides in this conflict. But I noticed the effects of the Amnesty declaration in the international media and even on this Forum. Since the attack of the red protesters on the hospital two weeks ago the 'usual suspects' of the red propaganda machine suddenly disappeared from this forum. I missed their posts, mostly starting with phrases like 'let me explain why...'. or 'let's flip the argument'.... or 'the Thai people want....'. After the Amnesty declaration they are back in numbers.

I still hope that this conflict comes soon to an end in a more or less peaceful way. I hope the leaders of both sides use their common sense and act with respect for human life. Thailand is on the brink of total disaster and for sure is not helped with the kind of 'support' Amnesty International demonstrated today.

Abhisit just has to swallow his pride and make way for elections.

Simple as that.

Yes, and in a timely manner.

Everyone wants to be in a position to name the next general when Anupong retires, as he is mandated to do in September.

So Abhisit wants elections in December, after securing his choice of general. Of course, the red shirts want the election sooner.

Summer elections with international observers would be the best approach.

so the cause of all evil for the socalled elite and the socalled poor is a few months difference in setting the election date? this remains a breaking point because both sides desperately want to have their man in 'command' of the armed forces? And to achieve their goals both sides are willing to bring chaos and misery in Thailand, blood in the streets, loss of lifes, you name it! I think the whole fuss about elections is nothing else than a figleaf. a democratic wrapping for hidden agendas. I can of course guess what is really important for both sides, but I have a gut feeling that you are a better in that than me myself...

Any disadvantage has its advantage as well. Finally a piece of good news in a sea of misery

Hysterical, heavily biased nonsense - just another day at the office for the Nation writers. This is not journalism.

yep. agree.

If all the news that the NATION writes is garbage, WHY ARE YOU HERE? Why don't you start your own on-line website blog and do your own reporting so that we can see how clever you are.

for those of you who don't know: in (traditional) journalism there should be a strict division between news and comment. The newsarticles are supposed to be objective and giving the facts, the comment reflects the opinion of the newspaper. The article you all are referring to is a 'commentary' and as such gives the stand of the commentator/newspaper on this matter. You can agree with this comment or not, but on the base of this you cannot accuse the Nation of biased newsreporting.

Great idea.. good for this start in using a wee bit of common sense..

Now can they take it further.. outlaw the wearing any colored shirt that may draw attention to the media.

I say all shirts and blouses removed from all people in or out of all public area or events.. and keep them all off during this hot and steamy season. Shorts and g-strings are optional...

Then they can start on granting pardens to all the falong in all the prisons and send them all back to their home

vountries.

Imagine all the money they will save.

Remove all the restrictions in buying your own home and make it easier to live here and spend all of your retirement money here and not in other countries that seem to make it easier for the westerner to live and invest there.

Go paperless.. in all government offices.

The list could go on and on... LONG LIVE THE KINGDOM and his royal highness THE KING

May be a good idea to ask your government to take some of your bright ideas at heart and grant them to Thai immigrants or even tourists

Precedents shouldn't be used as excuses for commiting the same act, especially when you claim to be fighting against the precedent.

Glad there are posters here who use their brain before clicking the Add reply button. Bravo!

THe situation has become such a state of anarchy, where you can't even rely on the police to undertake a simple arrest operation (perhaps they were bribed ;-), the Army has it's own among the reds firing on their fellow soldiers, it seems that the only thing left to do is have another coup, yes that's right, set the clock back to 2006 and this time do it properly!

Round up the red shirt leaders, firebrand leaders, PT hardliners and execute them, take the Thaksin kids hostage, then say you're sorry and hand the mandate back to the people so that the poor can elect a new set of politicians pledging to work for the country not against it. The coup leaders can meanwhile go into exile in Dubai claiming they did it all for the good of the country.

Sounds ridiculous, I'm not suggesting it, but at this stage it would be the quickest and most effective way to bring stability to the country.

Ah, i forgot to mention 'Land of Spinners' in a previous post. Very well informed and total reliable sources close to general A. told me that he was very impressed by your bright ideas. ,,Why o why I could not think of this myself", he cried while in tears running to the bathroom.

This is Thailand and yes, I have been here a very long time and I employed staff up country and when it came down to wages, the ministry of work was on my back to make sure minimum wages were paid.

Considering the cost of living up-country and the family units there is no real reason why children should be starving. The strange thing is, there always seems to be enough money around for a TV and for drink, but as you say not for food. Fish and fruit are abandoned and considering that most of these people are rice farmers, you are contradicting yourself here since the price of rice has gone up, so has income.

The main problem is that they all want to live beyond their means and to buy motorcycles and fancy clothes. They borrow money from the ever present money lenders and by the time wages are paid, they have to pay a big chunk of those to the money lender. Gambling is another cause for financial problems of many Isanies , but they can not blame the government for this!

There is a problem I admit with the IQ level because most do not use salt but only fish sauce. It is a medical fact that especially during growth, the brain needs Iodine to develop and when this is missing..... well, the results we see gathered in Bangkok right now. Chulalungkorn University did a study on this along time ago and came up with the same results. But this is not caused by poverty, simply by choice.

Fully agree: the present level of poverty is to a (large?) degree self-inflicted. One big problem is that many if not most "rice farmers" are severely under-educated and susceptible to visions of "the beautiful life" (see: soap operas). They did lots better before the onslaught of big business and modern times consumerism. Thailand was a purely agricultural country until what -- less than 100? -- years ago. And then suddenly, parts of the country got warped into the 20th century. From the time the US used Thailand as a base for the Vietnam war, it didn't take long for the entire mass of Western "greats" like McDonalds, 7-Eleven, Pizzahut and you-name-it to set up shop here. With them came the marketing machines, unleashed on people who hadn't gradually grown up with it and thus hadn't had time to develop any kind of "resistance". The result: what BKjohn describes above. But it goes one step further than that. Thais tend to look at the façade of something and seldom bother to "drill down" to get at the facts. That is why it's so easy for the likes of Thaksin and his ilk to get "messages across".

Better education and making kids develop a critical attitude is where it's at. Teaching farmer kids basic business principles could make agriculture a viable business for many, as opposed to a debt trap. Learning some fundamentals, the national anthem and some of the country's ancient history (good bits only) simply doesn't cut it. Neither does the "being nice" attitude that lets almost anyone pass examns. And hey, I'm not talking about westernizing schools or importing farang ideas/morals...!

However, there are two aspects to that: even if a massive education push were to start today, it would take time to come to fruition. Only at that point would it be truely, totally feasible to run the country based on one man/one vote (and no: I'm not advocation anything else for now -- just to preclude flaming). The second aspect: if the countryside were to experience a better-living upswing, obesity would be quick to follow too

The IQ level theory sounds rather dubious to me and reminds me of the infamous measuring of skulls in a black past. But especially the second comment is in line with my own observations in Issan. It also supports my conclusion that there is a big foreign contribution to the present inequalities and social tensions in Thailand. This is not to say that the Thais or Thai governments don't have a responsibility of their own, but awareness of this fact should make many contributors to this forum more modest, less loud and for sure less one sided - whatever colour they may sleep with.

PS When looking for information I didn't search effective enough yesterday. Sorry for taking to much of your time. Have a nice weekend.

Depending on the post you read here you can think you live in the land of secrets, land of speculation, land of slander, land of sillies, land of shirts, land of shame, land of sinners, land of schemes.

I fear very much that after the events of the last days and with disaster looming the reality for every Thai will be land of sadness and land of sorrow.

Land of smiles will remain what it was: a slogan for foreigners

If you want to adopt the chld, you will require the permission from the biological father. However. there are provisions for if he doesn want to give pirmission or can't be found.

In case of an adoption, you will have to go to an international adoption process, starting in your own country. If you don't do that, the adoption will not be recognised by your own country. It will only be recognised by Thailand.

May i ask you a final question on this? Do you know something about these provisions (in Thailand) or give me a clue where I can find info on what to do if a biological father doesnt want to give permission or cant be found? it remains a little bit confusing for me that in Thailand the mother can give a paternal name without him to sign anything or give his documents to confirm (reading also about the problem of Siamkiwi). Not for myself but for the little one I had some hope that this could have made it relatively easy to get his name of the BC. The person showed up one time after birth, saying you could see it was his daughter, and then afterwards despite visiting Thailand a few times never came to mother and child again or supported his daughter financially. I wonder what would have happened if the mother had started procedures here to make him pay to support his daughter! I guess his first move would be denial with the argument that the BC was given without any documented confirmation from his part. There must be more cases like this, including total opposite ones where financial support is claimed from men who are not the biological fathers. When I think about all the paperwork involved and the painfull side of this matter I wonder if the Thai authorities ever have taken into consideration to alter the birth registration procedure. Anyway, it is just a thought of somebody who cares and thanks you very much for your helpful comments and attention.

I don't think so. But there would also be not too much point in. Right now the person named on the BC doesn't have any rights (or obligations). The mother has sole parental rights and the child has no legal father.

thanks again. it s clear to me. want to make steps abroad in order to adopt the child or register myself as being the father. in my country there are rights and obligations for biological fathers, so i was wondering what I could do with a thai birthcertificate which mentions another name than mine. But i will find out, i guess. thanks again

That he is on the birth certificate doesn't make him the legal father. It only means that the person who registered the birth claims that he is the father.

If someone else is the the father, he can can make ask to be recognized as the father by going to court. A DNA test might be needed, since it is another person than is on the birth certificate.

thank you for your answer. one additional question: would a change also be possible by not stating any biological father? father unknown, for instance? the child is now 3,5 years old

You are marreid to the mother and by law the father. You are legally married as far as Thai law is concerned. The birth of the child must be registered at the amphur where the child was born within 15 days, or you get a fine. In your case it is not important who does the registration, that can be the mother or another family member.

That the hopital doesn't want to name you as the father is rediculous, but their birth certificate is not that important. What is important is the birth certificate you get at the amphur.

have a question on this: if there is already name of a father on the birth certificate is it possible to change that, and if yes, how? thai gf was pregnant from farang, gave his name as the father after birth in the hospital and that name has been registered at amphur. Strangely enough she never had to show documents from the biological father and he never showed up in hospital or amphur. He doesn't deny that he is the father, but doesn't reply to any request to help to get his name deleted from birth certificate. Is there anything she can do about this?

In Thailand you pay before you move in. In the west you pay after you move out. And pay, and pay, and pay… Different customs with similar results.

well balanced food for thought, presented in just a few lines. thank you for your observation

Pravit is the name of the writer....

Please dont try any tongue-in-cheek

I am aware of it

yesterday I thanked webfact for providing the live news updates. I remain grateful for his work and that of his colleagues. However, today I have to say that his comment on a poster who made a Pravda joke in his message is far over the top and smells like a threat of censorship and a lack of sense of humor. Since I joined this forum not so long ago I saw many more real insulting posts (especially towards Thai people) than this Pravda remark without any comment of the moderators. It's clear that the poster doesn't appreciate very much the way The Nation and/or its writer of the commentary are reporting on current events and uses a metaphore to express his opinion. So what? Especially on this forum of expats often criticizing the lack of democracy in Thailand there should be freedom of opinion, of course within limits of Thai law and civil/decent behaviour. I like to add this: I came in 2007 for the first time in Thailand and as a relative newbie I thought that joining this forum would be a contribution to my learning process. It was, but in a negative sense. I see slanging matches especially from the regular contributors to TV. To those of them who are branding the present government as 'dictators' and Abhisit as a puppet of the military with blood on his hands, demanding immediate dissolving of parliament and new elections I would say: where were you in the days Thaksin headed his government, full of corruption and responsible for atrocities? And to those of of them who are on the side of the present establishment-coalition of yellows and military: how can you justify your attacks on Thaksin and turning a blind eye on censorship, blood in the streets and corruption and (threats of) a military coup? As for me, I am a person with a liberal mind and a social conscience who is well aware that Thailand is not his country of origin, that there is no single truth to detect here, no simple black and white to choose for. What I have learned here is to observe, try to understand and to stand firm against human right violations. And last but not least, being a foreigner in a host country, to behave and express myself in a modest way. To my regret I see many 'farangs' doing the opposite. I don't have - I am aware of speaking in general terms now - the farang community here in high esteem and what I read on this forum confirms it. Thailand has its own responsibility for a lack of equal opportunities, for not having the same rights applying to everybody, for the wide gap between haves and have nots, for the existence of the sexindustry. But over the decades foreigners have made a big contribution to all this and they did take advantage of it without much thinking about the effects on Thai culture and social tension. Would it not have been nice when all the money they have spent on bars, girls, golf courses, villa's etc was invested in good education and health care for everybody? No, they prefer to get the girls out of Issan in stead of to university, they want cheap amusement, the baht rate as favourable as possible against dollar, pound or euro. Its an unarmed army of new imperialists disguised as tourists and/or expats, crying foul of everything which can make life a bit complicated in the land of smiles. Of course there are exceptions, but they cannot but confirm the general picture. And yes, I am part of that but at least aware of it. So don;t pass me the Chang (a popular comment here) but let me rest my case.

Sorry, apparently did something wrong with the quotations. this post is a reply to mr. Vicco. Just as I thought. Still no answers, just general statements. Well documented "facts"? Where...what facts:"? That is what I'm talking about. I have read pages and pages of "facts" and nothing comes close to answering my simple question. My post asked the specific question: How does a relatively minor conviction for a white collar crime place Thaksin in the Hitler, Stalin, Polpot category....(.....)[/i][/i]

[/i]

Sir, in no post I ever placed anybody in one of the categories you mentioned nor was I comparing anybody with the massmurderers you mentioned. And in relation with mr. Thaksin i wasn't mentioning the corruption charges either. Your post makes the impression of being written in anger, so I advise you to calm down and read my post more carefully. For the writings of other people I am not responsible.

I also would like to thank Webfact for the daily news updates and I missed it today as well. But following the news through Thai media there is may be not much to report today?

Every thread where Thaksin's name comes up it's always the same: "Criminal" "Murderer", "Terrorist". Where does all this come from? (for readability rest of the very long post shortened by me)

Google a little bit more, read what you find with an open mind and your opinion will be more balanced than is the case now. A good summing up has been given by a member called Bubba in a post on april 6. I would use none of the qualifications you mentioned for either mr. T or mr. A. But the fact that mr. T. has been elected and removed by a military coup doesn't make him a saint.

So that is the best you can give me? I never said he was a saint....I have "googled" to death and the question still remains. I did not ask for "opinions" I asked for "facts"

I asked for the proof which apparently even the courts could not find......proof in the legal sense...not proof because you don't like it or agree with it.

Like I said in the post...I have asked over and over and so far nobody has come close to explaining it....just more hot air and opinions.

sir there are many well documented facts about what happened in Thailand when Thaksin headed the government, i.e. carried the political responsibility for his country like mr. Abhisit does now. It is up to the politician to resign if he or she cannot take responsibility anymore for what is done or not done in the governments or his/hers name. I don't understand what you want to proof with all the searching for proof in the legal sense. If you mean proof of personal involvement in violations of human rights, disappeared and/or murdered people, i think you can google till your computer drops dead and it doesn't make a big difference which VIP-name you put in the search box. I am not ideologically blindfolded and perhaps that helps in not turning a blind eye for the wrongdoings of any government, political groupings or individual politicians. I hope you feel the same about that. thank you

Every thread where Thaksin's name comes up it's always the same: "Criminal" "Murderer", "Terrorist". Where does all this come from? (for readability rest of the very long post shortened by me)

Google a little bit more, read what you find with an open mind and your opinion will be more balanced than is the case now. A good summing up has been given by a member called Bubba in a post on april 6. I would use none of the qualifications you mentioned for either mr. T or mr. A. But the fact that mr. T. has been elected and removed by a military coup doesn't make him a saint.

Would it be fair to say that tragically enough history repeats itself in Thailand? I am not only talking about 1992 but also about the events in Tak Bai, october 2004, which left 85 people dead. Mr. Thaksin, at that time prime minister, defended police and army with more or less the same arguments as mr. Abhisit now. Even the discussion about 'third hand' and who shot first looks like a replica.

It seems impossible for many on this forum to show selfrestraint by commenting on the dramatic events in our hostcountry. It can be even hilarious to follow the keyboard battles between the likes of levelheaded fellow travelers and jingytingy maofobists. They talk to us like college professors, sometimes they make themselves sound even more authoritative by underlining how many years already they enjoy life in the Kingdom. To be honest I don't believe one of them when taking sides in this conflict. I just read everything and watch as much newsprograms as possible to inform myself about what is happening. And after talking with my neighbours, friends and yes, also my wife, I conclude that there is not one single truth to detect, no black sheeps to blame and no white ones to admire. So, from my point of view I am mostly amused when following this forum. What I can't stand however are the foreigners who use TV to 'enlighten' us with their frustrations about Thailand. The essence of (in my opinion) too many posts is that this whole country is rotten to the bone and all of its its citizens corrupt as hel_l. If you think like that, why are you not going back to all these highly civilized very democratic countries of origin? And why, dear moderators, don't you block posts like that? Thanks, also on behalf of my wife. And yes, she is a Thai citizen

I have reported all of these foreigners by name and nationality + picture to the Immigration Bureau. My wife, her sister and her brother-in-law all have fairly high up jobs there. Would be very surprised if they are not deported.

And you are proud of this?

Just Theitaliann's sense of humour kicking in again and he feels like winding someone up, seems his ploy is working...

beh, magari lui e un vero Italiano!

And how ,pray tell is a red shirt victory from this mess going to suddenly give the impoverished Thai social justice , the thai underclass whom the red shirts profess to represent have never had social justice , hence they are the underclass.

Education and equal opportunity is the path to equality ,do you really think that this is the path that the red shirt hierarchy have in mind. Not on your Nelly.

it would be wise and reason for a more modest expression of opinions on the current affairs when thinking about the role of foreigners in promoting education and equal opportunities in Thailand the last decades.